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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- What's inside an $18K 20GHz handheld spectrum analyser?
Rigol DSA815 teardown: • EEVblog #391 - Rigol D...
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Hi Dave, I love the Knife as a pointer! :^) I think for future teardowns, you should use a wetted soldering iron with a little solder ball on the tip, as your pointer.... Make sure to "skim" the boards surface with it. Then wait for all the comments to roll in. HA HA!!! But in all seriousness, Love the videos!! Keep up the good work.
i realize I'm pretty randomly asking but do anybody know a good site to stream new series online ?
@Rogelio Troy thanks, I signed up and it seems like they got a lot of movies there :D I really appreciate it!!
@Rey Benedict you are welcome :)
How often do people get to see inside an $18K spectrum analyser? I think it's very worthwile and very interesting.
All RF trim settings become different after you open then reassemble it. Thank you for sacrificing to show us that.
46:08 In this topology we have to consider wave propagation. The butterfly structures are transmission lines stups which, depending on the frequency, acts like a short or an open. Mostly these structures are used as shorts for a certain frequency. The flare out a the end of the stups makes the damping characteristics in the transfer function more wider compared to a non flared out stup. The connections between the butterflies are much more thinner than a 50Ohm transmission line should be. The idea is to increase inductance so the butterflies can provide much more damping due to the higher impedance caused by the inductance.
sure does.
this is specifically why the knife edge was used to point them out!
Those copper tapes at 41:00, I think, during the metal shield is being soldered, the air inside will expand, so the hole is used for the air relief, and once technician done with soldering, he/she simply seal it off with a that copper tape.
chaurasia hariprasad was my first thought too
I'm pretty sure you're correct there. You see the same thing with the heat spreaders on older Pentium 4 CPUs. They also have a little vent hole for when the heat spreader is soldered to the board.
Matt Elder I always wondered what those little holes on the IHS were and now I know
I wondered if they might be gas purged (Nitrogen ?) to avoid oxidation variances, but expansion compensation is probably more likely.
Yo dawg, we heard you like shielding, so we put shielding in your shielded shielding so you can have a shielded shield in yo shielding!
While you shielding.
RF design is wizardry
*microwave design
slap_my_hand Up to 20GHz, it can analyse HF, VHF, UHF, etc
no, its just overpriced
The holes on the gold cans may be vents. When they are soldered the air expands. What do you think?
I have no idea what I would use a tool like that Spectrum analyzer for, but as a engineer and fitter/turner, I love the machine work and construction of it!, just amazing tech!
I hope my relatives never find out what I consider pornography.
+MainsOnTheOhmsRange Same here!
Hears someone coming, alt-tab to cake fart
Man.. Ohm on the Range..... it was almost so good. Keep the meter off yur peter
Little hole in cans will be to let hot gases escape to stop then lifting & blowing holes in the solder during reflow
32:15-33:30: "424" is a Hittite digital attenuator. "H270" parts are Hittite 2 way switches, "1GM1" part is an Agilent 20Ghz active mixer.
33:25: "184D" is an inductor for the "N4" darlington gain block.
33:40: Another "424" Hittite step attenuator
34:15-34:20: More monolithic darlington gain blocks.
35:10: "H564" parts are Hittite LNA amplifiers.
I wonder if that guy from Agilent China fully understood what you were going to do with that expensive piece of kit :) - or he is an engineer himself and proud of a rare chance to show off his work. I am a firmware engineer and I know that the guy who designs the stickers on the product gets all the attention, but a beautiful board layout is rarely appreciated.
Min 26:50 Very likely the reference generator loop - This takes in an external 10 MHz or uses the 10 MHz VCTCXO (internal reference for basic stability). The phase noise at far offsets (> 30 -40 Hz) is achieved with the 40 MHz VCXO.
Min29:11 - Silver plated Beryllium Copper for springiness (The white material on board is silver coating which gives lower loss than Gold coating (due to Nickel layer underneath).
Min31:17 - Filled via - with conductive or non-conductive (most likely) plug.
Min31:42 - Prevent leakage with Rogers 4003 or 4350 outer layer with Glass epoxy layer sandwiched?
Min34:08- Near DC to a few GHz Amplifier, L38 in view is high value L with a ac Impedance limiting Resistor in parallel (alternate would be conical inductors). Power supply on the left (passed from backside?)
Min34:30 - Low Pass Filter to limit the Input BW.
Min35:11 - Local oscillator Amp for Mixer mixing a Low Pass Filter (0 -3 GHz?) to limit the Input BW.
Min38:06 - Single Frequency Amp LEE-39+- 7GHz?
Min39:08- Power supplies and bias generators?
Min47:02- Coupler for LO null?
Min47:33- LPF, Min48:35- First Mixer followed by LPF & BPF (U shapes), LPF s are cascaded for different cut off frequencies. Smaller the size-higher the freq.
Min49:23- 2.8 -8 G , 940 MHz(?) IF Mixer. CRO-3750 for 2nd LO?
@40:50 I assume that the pinholes in the shielding cases are to equalize the air pressure during and after soldering :-) It is a real beauty Dave!
" There so..shield that, ya know, we're talking about 20GHz here, put a lil' bit of spit back on that, she'll be allright, no worries!". LMAO, hilarious
Thanks Dave!
I have the N9340A HSA that I use for filter and duplexer tuning and general purpose work in public safety radio installation and maintenance. I paid a little over $2500 for it used on eBay. It’s definitely paid for itself in the 10 years or so that I’ve owned it. Great device.
I love the fact that you allowed us an in-depth view INSIDE the N9344 series SA.
This allowed me to avoid taking my SA apart and most probably destroying it just to see the inside magic of Agilent.
Thanks for a phenomenal channel !
Hello, Dear Dave! I can't understand english at all but, I just enjoy watching... It's very sad to know that I am losing a lot of valuable information. 😢 All your knowledges is pure unattainable gold for me. I am a apassionate maker electronics, and you are an inspiration to me, brother! 💖 Greetings from Córdoba, Argentina.
These transmission line magics never fail to amaze me.
The base manufacture cost of this is probably around the $5K+ mark.
Should have turned it on and done a quick function over view.
Its ALWAYS good to know what something working right works like...
before pointing out details of how it gets there.
doceigen good point. Maybe he did that and we know? I'll keep that in mind when a disassemble something in the future
One of Dave's slogans has been "don't turn it on, TAKE IT APART"
Yep, it took forever to upload and process a 2.5GB HD file. I started it Tuesday night my time. Had to leave it running all night and still wasn't finished processing until 10am this morning.
I love the smell of expensive hardware in the morning.
Just like Norman Schwarzkopf stopped short of Bagdad, YOU stopped short of going beyond the copper tape and into THE GOLDEN CHAMBER!!! YOU'RE FIRED!!!
The structure at 46:55 is a directional coupler. A wave traveling down one of the lines will couple across to the other line causing a wave to travel down it in the opposite direction.
The parts labeled four digits on top and four on the bottom are Agilent chips, using the same kind of part numbering scheme that HP used back in the day. The ones with ceramic tops are most certainly InP devices which are manufactured at a plant in Germany which, if I understand correctly, is a joint-venture with X-Fab.
36:07 is a slotline hairpin bandpass filter. And the one above it is a Chebychev/elliptic lowpass filter. It's easy to tell low pass from band pass, just view it as a dc line. if it passes dc (there's a direct connection with no lines to ground, it's a low pass). The chebychev/elliptic low pass is like a normal filter, but the parallel element is actually a resonator instead of a single reactive element.
Really nice tear down though. Subscribed!
At 46:19, as mentioned above, you can tell it's a lowpass. The thin line plays, as you correctly mentioned, the role of an inductor and the arc shapes are capacitors. They are shaped like that to increase the bandwidth.
I'd like to learn more about the principal of operation of these PCB level devices and how they're designed. Is there a Wikipedia page or other materials?
I believe the LO at 40:04 indicates the Local Oscillator signal. MCL39 is a DC to 8 GHz monolithic amplifier.
Oh how I love you! I recently discovered your channel here and I spent hours upon hours watching your videos. While I know nothing of the inner workings of electronics I do love learning about many things. Thank you very much for your work!
I thought that youtube had rules against uploading porn...
If you search "distributed element filter", you will find a wikipedia article which shows pictures and descriptions of the PCB filters. Several of the pics are from the N9344C.
What I want for christmas is a video of the face of an agilent calibration technician while watching this video...
how about a vid of the face of the Aglient Tech having to realign THAT set!
🤣
That would be something to see
Not just a screwdriver but a jack knife!! 18,000 bit of kit there. Thanks Dave, for taking the time to show us what's inside one of these units.
The IC shown in 32:00 can be Hittite part HMC424LP3 digital attenuator, H270 can be HMC270ms8 6GHz SPDT switch.
High timebase stability. The GPS signal is used to discipline the reference oscillator.
As said by a couple of others, the Hnnn parts are Hittite parts. I saw: HMC349, HMC700, HMC773, HMC564, HMC424, which are actually pretty easy to identify if you know what you are looking at (and now, you do!). The "LO" you pointed out has nothing to do with local oscillation, those are input LNAs to set the noise figure at the input connector. Cheers!
Yes, almost looks conformally coated, that's what I thought at first glance too. Just really shiny gloss solder mask.
At 40 minutes there is a section where LO is Local Oscillator, RF is exactly what it says, and the chip i think is an RF Mixer for down conversion. Z1 is the impedance matching on the output.
Hey Dave, just wanted you to know that the Stiff Co-axial cables are 99% copper and another wire because just got myself one and cut it.
At 30:44 exactly. Is that soldering of the connector broken, or it'a a play of light. That would whoop down the signal to the ground (that kind of crack takes 10 GHz to dust). 31:01 look at that stub tuning at the right center :D. 31:11 it is actually a tuning method for that high frequencies. If made on Teflon or on ceramic, it would be more precise with epsilon, and hence less tuning.
Would not say a word anymore. I just had a bear after a long day in open pit coal mine.
Best Regards, thumbsup
I might try a laser pointer, that could be cool, but probably a bit wobbly under the x10 macro lens.
47:07: Yes, microstrip directional coupler. Exactly what I was thinking. Maybe this is being used to isolate the incoming signal from a local oscillator just before a mixer diode.
I DO love that "kite tail" bandpass filter a little later (50:00), though.
UPDATE: Yep, it works!
Wow, those guys at Agilent sure give the impression of being masters of their craft.
Wow! That's a lot of pretty impressive stuff there. No wonder it's quite expensive. I just can't imagine the development costs for this analyzer alone.
I recently found this blog and find all this teardown videos very interesting (including all other EEV videos). Even as an mech. engineer with limited knowledge in this area i just love them.
Keep up the very good work!!
/ Mats from Sweden.
I wonder if the converters are JESD204B on it to the FPGA, The low I/O count to the other blocks would tend to suggest that. The main board shielded blocks are probably precision clock reference generators, shielded for the femto second order performance.
at 47:02 is a directional coupler i think (could be wrong but don't think so). directional coupler is meant to "sample" a small fraction of the RF wave propagating from input to output. Common coupling port can be 20 dB or more.
I don't think you mentioned this, but also note the symmetry of the filter at 34:30. That's not just for simplicity or looks, but to mitigate the effect of unequal stage loading between orders of the filter.
Also I could be wrong, but the "zigzags" or rather meander in for instance the bowtie stub filter at 46:10 are rather to ensure the correct length of trace (or rather in this case, waveguide) (eg 1/4 wavelength or whatever is needed) between elements rather than act as elements themselves.
It's interesting however that they don't have chamfered edges in the RF sections which is where I'd _really_ expect to see it.
As for that little loop at 50:17, my best guess would be maybe some sort of a pi network.
I want the input board looks like under all that shielding! I bet those holes under the copper tape are to equalize pressure during solder and assembly.
I wish I could understand most of what you said, but I still enjoy watching you take such a pricey piece of equipment apart!
Something to consider with a spectrum analyser like this is it probablly has serveral different routes a signal can take through the system depending on the operating frequency. You can't reasonablly make one signal chain work from 1MHz to 20GHz.
At 40:53 those are not access holes. Those are to relieve/vent any pressure that might build up during the soldering process of that large shield. Then they plug it post production for RF reasons.
17:42. Those are ground connections and a Samtec connector used for LVDS. It is an expensive connector.
the knife pucker factor across those RF traces is just...keeping me on edge!
I bet those "access holes" under the copper tape patches are for pressure equalization so that hot air can expand during soldering and contract when it cools down afterwards.
Cool teardown! I can hardly wait to see what you do for the next fundamentals Friday. Would you consider doing some of the theory behind the pcb based band pass filters? Thanks a bunch!
The pcb filters are cheaper to mass produce, but almost always under perform discrete component based filters. The killer is the losses in the pcb material. The alternating pattern filters are probably interdigital band pass filters. The ones with the pizza slice caps may look like low pass filters. The one with the smooth curved inductors is probably f
at 46:58 seems to be a directional coupler, used most to detect vswr in this case maybe to create a derivation for measuring the sinal level or something..
Agilent gets free advertisement from this, why tek wouldnt want that baffles me, any one buying this product would want to know how it was put together, so be it if you break 1 if it gets them 10 more sales, since these don't get the privilege of large scale mass production price cutting
31:00
next to the added trim jumper is an area that looks to have been laser cut..
During Bench build, Tuning assembly?
The shinny dots may be through connections as Z axis shielding
around 46mins some of the this shielding looks tobe drilled threw some not, random..
0iC A Ground Plane, MayBe...
Microwave and RF designing have always reminded me sth unearthly and sacred as we get close to light speed. You did a great job of dismantling this weird device.
Another fantastic teardown. Would love to see it working again after re-assembly lol. You really should get a laser pen for pointing with. I've watched a lot of your videos and noticed you always leave marks on the pcbs etc by using a screwdriver as your pointing device :P Keep up the great work, I look forward to your videos!!
My guess. After the solder solidified the contracting air in the container might be enough to flex the PCB and possibly damage some ceramic parts inside or out.
I hope they can buff out all the scratches.
Granted not on critical paths and probably deemed as a demo unit for the rest of it's life but would it be so hard to use a plastic trimmer as a pointer?
Well he could also use a normal cutter to open mailbags, but what's the fun in that? :D
I feel you were reading my mind. And what HE considered "beautiful soldering" wasn't to my eyes in some places. Looked like a parts machine. He might have been curious about whether it would turn on after reassembly! I was!
46:58 isn't that just a coupler? Seems the upper branch goes left to the board-to-board RF connector, while the lower continues right.
Was this functioning when they sent it to you, and did you have to send it back? I have an old HP 8565A that I've opened, but wouldn't dare go further!
If it looks like a phillips, and smells like a phillips, chances are it's a JIS or a posidriv, or occasionally one of the weird ones like frearson or quadrex.
Anson Mansfield or Reed Prince!
Not likely. Waveguides are really only practical at microwave freqs due to the physical sizes needed. a wave guide for 1MHz would be enormous.
Agilent must be crazy to put their beautiful Spectrum Analyser under the knife. Truly an RF work of art.
After not seeing a eevblog video for a few days, this one popped up and it is seriously well above the average! (which is awesome). Cheers for the awesome experience of looking at some RF voodoo circuit design, Dave. I've been taking electronic stuff apart since I was a toddler, I can only hope to one day make a living doing it and with items this exotic.
Mega props Dave, your videos inspire me to learn more about this awesome subject.
Peace
Thanks for your videos! I'm a young electronics designer and I find you vlog really amusing and interesting. Keep it awesome! Greetings from Spain!
I've been preserving and restoring many electronic organs from as far back as 1946. The Hammond tone wheel organ is certainly the most desired organ and currently there are many manufactures, including Hammond's new owner- Suzuki, manufacturing digital emulations. However, there were more organ manufacters besides Hammond who made great organs. Wurlitzer made excellent theater organs, as did Gulbransen, Conn, Allen, Thomas...
Would this analyzer aid in accurately capturing these vintage organs?
Uh, I'm guessing the last "cube-conduit" simply does a phaseshift which is welcome to passivate connections. Thats exactly the same with this "snail-trail" and the "hand-held-fan-lookalike" that are always dimensioned for one quarter of the wavelength of the voltage frequency.
Cool Vids, I really enjoyed it. Thumbs up!
The structure of the paired lines at 47:00 is likely a directional coupler.
The white package at about 20:00 is almost certainly a mixer from Mini-Circuits.
One of the best videos on RUclips!
I'm curious to know how many people exactly have been engaged in design of this product and also their profession
The copper tape may be over vent holes, air expansion when soldering the can on
About that weird little circuit at 37:57 - There seems to be ground plane all around the components but not under the "main" traces on the top. There is also no solder mask. I first noticed this because there are tiny patches of solder mask where needed. Why is the ground plane missing? Some supper high frequency RF weirdness I assume.
Dave, are we going to be treated to one of your famous high speed reassembly videos with the whistly audio and final power on at regular speed? Hope so, those are fun.
The acces holes are for air escape while soldering them in place.
The tracking generator is probably an optional module.
If you don't need it (or can't afford it) they just leave the module out.
What would happen if you somehow damaged an incredibly expensive device sent to you for review? Couldn't they take you to claims court, depending on your negligence?
High-end gear, high-end walk through. Thanks, Dave. Looking forward to a Fundamentals Friday, too.
Are the "borads" at 19 mins misspelling or is that actually something.
It's Borat! I see you have very fine signal, I can touch signal yes? Much pretty! :D
Notice, at 39:50 the nasty traces and soldering on this area as well as so many other places in this unit... I wonder if this was a working unit or not? Either way it's great to see this apart.
12:40 I love that inductor. So cozy in there
I love seeing inside this crazy kind of RF stuff
Very interesting seeing the changes to these RF devices over the years as bandwidth goes higher and higher.
Using the sharpened knife is even better, at one point you could see it making a scratch right across one of the RF filter magic patterns.
42:37 I asume this is for calibration. I had once a circuit when the top plate wasn't in place the whole parts s parameters shifted dramatically.
You can see one that looks like it has been deliberately scratched for tuning coming into view at 33:10. Doesn't look like it was done with a precision tool tough ...
This wasn't a review though, it was just a teardown. When it comes to these teardowns it's to show us stuff that you normally would never get a hand on and everything inside. So it's for precisely the reason of it being expensive.
Dave, I noticed that on the Spectrum Analyzer Wikipedia page a picture from this teardown is currently at the top of the page!
neat!
This kind of RF electronics design really is magic!
Great vid Dave :)
Dang , I'm trying to find the bucks to get a spec. analyzer , and your " tearing it apart "
I would think that with the possible need of recal that doing a review 1st may have been in order ?
Maybe to a rebuild / test / review ?
Thanks Dave
can i bend those those "solid coax cables" ? Or do you need special equiptment ? When they are like a copper pipe they would damage the insulation (dielectric tube) inside the coax.
Given the low volume - are these boards all soldered by hand?
I wonder if they used silver wire in those rigid coax connectors...
Realy nice that they let u open ther toys, awsome marketing.
I honestly would not even consider a unit like that until i saw how much work they actualy put into making it worth the money.
Awesome, good to hear, keep it up!