I have some free "not my metaverse" pins available in my discord server if you want it. Discord.gg/Thrill Let's talk. Do you agree with what I say here?
I love that analogy and you're absolutely right. It's rather naive of Thrill to think we will be able to veer the ship in the direction we want. Once their competition is dead no one will jump ship as there will be no other ship left in the Ocean. Then you're stuck with a dictator of a captain.
That is definitly a concern, but I think so long as we don't go aboard with blinders on our headsets, and so long as we as a community stick together, we can still help stear the ship. If ten thousand people crowd to a corner of the boat at once, the boat will lean that direction. Lets keep our eyes, ears, and mind open and see where this goes, then if it does capsize, lets make sure theres room on the debris for Jack to get out of the water. We need more life rafts!
Lol, your metaphore doesn't translate well to reality. Crowding everyone to the corner of a large ship won't redirect it but sending angry letters and posting enthusiastic comments is going to do even less. Look how Facebook worked out. Meta is literally the same company run by the same people and you won't get them to change a thing.
@@Linkmegax that's not entirely true, they are reversing the Facebook login, they stopped when we didn't want ads on paid games, they shifted focus to porting older games based off feedback on Reddit, they even unblocked revive at one point after it was basically banned. All because the community spoke out. It doesn't absolve the company of every mistake, but it's not all bad either.
It can't be THAT hard. I mean, it's just Android after all. Maybe someone should try getting the XDA guys on board. They are absolute Android masters. Surely they can pull it off. Who knows, maybe one day we might even get custom ROMs for the Quest. That would be sick!
At this point we can only wish for Valve to cram the Steam Deck hardware inside a headset and take back a part of the market and prevent a monopoly from Meta.
Yep, this isn't really much of a stretch. The steam deck hardware makes the quest look like a potato. Change the form factor, put some lenses in front of that screen and you have yourself a vr headset. You can even make it so you have a computer screen in VR and use a keyboard and mouse and play 2d games like you would on a PC, but with your headset on, and then play a vr game... or a 3d desktop game where the game comes out of the monitor. This is such a straight forward thing that it would boggle my mind if someone in valve wasn't already prototyping it. And then, they have an entire storefront of vr games instantly available from launch day.
standalone has no future beyond what it is right now, a glorified phone vr solution. Unless we miraculously discover some hyper advanced new battery technology (which we have been trying at for the past 100 years), or we somehow develop super efficient chips that can compete with desktop hardware while being power efficient (unlikely since the speed of advancement for such progress has slowed considerably and is soon expected to halt entirely). What you'll get is a super hot, battery burning, mediocre heavy headset. it is simply not viable.
It feels amazing to be part of this community, the fact that we are literally watching one of the biggest technological leaps happen right in front our eyes is incredible, and we’ll all be here for it!
You will live in pods and eat the bugs as you are told. And the only media that you will be permitted to consume is what is approved by your overlord Zuck.
That's why I save money for valve index. I will never ever buy anything that has a Facebook implementation, and yes, the metaverse is freaking scary. Love how people all feel the same about that.
We got HP Reverb G2. Yeah the tracking isn't as good as Quest, but it's a good budget headset for its 4K HMD. It is $200 more than Quest 2... but again, it's good for what it is.
Agreed. Meta is trying to control the VR marketplace and we all know they are doing it, and doing it well. This needs to stop so other companies can get a taste if the market.
Big respect for Thrill, for putting his opinion on the table, I watch him since he had less than 10K subs to see he growing and becoming who he is now, I am so happy to say that he is one of the best RUclipsrs I have already saw in my life, not just for being honest and having transparency, but also for not having trouble of fear to do it. Keep it up Thrill, you are a legend.
@@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD That's literally what the commenter says, "putting his opinion on the table." On the table is just a metaphor for putting his opinion out there.
The premise that we'll just be using Meta as a "ship" to drive the industry forward and that we should "abandon" it as soon as the competition is further along doesn't make much sense to me. That's under the impression that in, let's say 1-3 years from now when we have more competition with standalone headset hardware + software that could compete with Meta at the level of Quest 2 in it's current state, that Meta isn't going to have something that's STILL better by a mile compared to the competition at that point. Back to the ship analogy - that's like abandoning a luxurious, but affordable, cruise liner with the best offerings for a view of the ocean and more in entertainment available - for the price of your compliance with the rules + a small fee for the ticket to board - versus a small sailboat that you end up paying more than the cruise ship ticket for, but you yourself will own it fully. Yes, you'll have much more freedom, but you'd lack the innovations and features that a cruise ship could provide - though you can at least say that both of them float and take you places you couldn't go otherwise. For the average person that just wants to see the ocean and experience it in the best way possible for a decent price, it makes more sense to go with the cruise ship - but for the more experienced sea-goer, the sailboat might end up becoming a better option for them in long-run. The problem for the sailboat owner though is that it will always lack all the technological features of a cruise ship, so making that switch might not even happen. Probably not the best way to phrase that, but I hope it makes some sense. Personally, I feel like we just need to see more standalone competition in general - Meta / Oculus definitely has the largest share of headset owners on Steam at around 60%, but that doesn't mean they're at 100 - they don't own the PCVR side of things FULLY, though inevitably they'll own a larger share since a Quest 2 can link to a PC (which of course makes the Quest 2 that much more enticing compared to PCVR-only headsets).
I think you underestimate other hardware. PSVR 2 is going to have foveated rendering and another thing like that, dualsense features, run using ps5 hardware, 4k screen, insiders saying the library is literally going to dominate vr, etc. Though I'm not disagreeing with our money helping meta be scumbags.
@@IskandarTheWack PSVR 2 is something that's still tethered to a console though - it's clear by overall consumer sales that most people would rather spend money on an "all-in-one" standalone headset, rather than a headset that still requires an additional console system to work ($300 USD vs. $1000+ for a decent PCVR setup). The main reason PCVR is probably further ahead than PSVR right now is 1. There really isn't many PSVR exclusives worth investing that much money into to play (though I will say that Fracked looks kinda cool) and 2. Most of the more well known VR titles are either exclusive to the Quest 2, or exclusive to PCVR. Yeah, maybe in a few years PSVR 2 will come out along with some good games, but who's to say that the Quest won't improve further as well? It's basically still the same argument as PCVR vs. standalone - PSVR is still using a console, it's the same concept as PCVR in practice. Also, I would take any "insider" information with a *massive* grain-of-salt - assuming that every new game that may eventually come out for PSVR 2 is going to be a masterpiece for VR is wishful thinking at best. There might be a 1 or 2, but I doubt it would be enough to warrant people buying a PS5 + the VR hardware just to play it - which would make most of the hardware upgrades sort of pointless if there's no good games that make use of those improvements. Personally, I've tried PSVR for RE7 way back a few years ago at a friend's place - it was alright, but my god the difference between current PSVR and something like a $300 Quest 2 is night and day. It's nice that Playstation are taking the first steps to try and create competition, but they have a massive hill to climb to come anywhere close to the Quest 2's popularity.
The more money we pay the captain, the more the ship is going to start looking like a battlecruiser. And it's going to send a clear message to any other ships that get too big that it's in their best interest to pool resources.
I thought the analogy was corny. Everyone's hating on FB for a well deserved monopoly. Mark is more excited about this than anyone. He dropped the entry barrier %80 and is spending all the money possible to make our 'ready player one' dreams real. And his platform is going to allow for user created content, probably open source.
@@Slycoop he's not excited about VR as a content creation medium, he's excited about the fact that this is borderline non-invasive mindreading, this is data scraping at the lowest level. i can tell you for a fact that he has no interest in FOSS (for anything other than EOL products)
@@afallingtree9114 Society is so quick to see the worst in people these days. Data analytics is awesome. Imagine getting 10 billion people to use a website where they all enter their demographic information and post their opinion about everything, and then NOT using data analytics to drive successful marketing advertisement campaigns. You would have to be an idiot.
@@Slycoop exactly that. this is why decentralisation matters, we know one person cant be trusted with that level of power regardless of their previous motives.
The problem is I want to jump ship since I’ve had a quest 2 for about half a year, but I don’t have the money for it. We need someone else to pull a quest 2 move where it’s cheap and affordable but a good offer.
this guy. i saw my first video of him. really love the content u make independantly!!!! u brought me into VR! u will be my go to Vr channel forever!! keep it up and yeah, sometimes that means addapting. im sure u will still make great content! We need you.
I fear that the dream of building up the user base and everyone jumping ship together is incredibly unrealistic. BUuuut at the same time I know that the company must grow and will grow no matter what we do, so it’s best to spread the message as far as we can. Good luck and I hope this gets as big as it needs to.
To be fair, I did this with Apple and Android. Apple came out with the iPods and iPhones; I jumped to Android later on. The issue is that it only worked because we had the titan that was Samsung bullying their way in; it took a company that basically owns South Korea and makes everything from paper to self-propelled howitzers (K9 Thunder) to bully their way in.
With all the talk of VR and it's history, it shocks me that nobody talks about the grandfather of VR who sold his first unborn son to Zuckerberg and Facebook, causing this in the first place. Palmer Luckey.
Full disclosure: meta/Facebook shareholder over here. Interesting video that is for sure. One thing I would like to mention, Meta/Facebook does not answer to shareholders either. The reason is because Meta/Facebook is one of the few companies with a double class share structure. This means that individuals with a special type of shares hold tremendous voting power. In other words if every single meta/Facebook shareholder votes to do something but Zuck opposes it means nothing will be done because he holds more than 50% of the voting power. Also, I don’t think the company will allow to be used as your R&D piggy bank but gl.
This, people still really don't understand that if any "they" lets you think you actually have a say inside THEIR system.....you don't, you just think you do.
@@mzaite no that is not what I meant. While Facebook/meta does not answer to shareholders it does not mean we are without any recourse. Even someone as powerful as the Zuck understands that a market can stay irrational longer that you can stay solvent and all the massive issues that means. If you don’t like the company do not use their products by all means but my only criticism is to build a relationship with the intent of just jump ship (I don’t think that is healthy for any kind of relationship) instead, be vocal, tell the company, all companies, what you want and see what they can do for you. On the other hand, if you treat any company with the intent of just jumping ship I assure you that the next company is going to think twice before making an investment that may benefit us all. I wrote this in a hurry, sorry for any errors.
Not really a good idea, Thrill is really underestimating how scary and relentless FB is becoming towards the vr market. They have spent billions the past few years and taking losses just to become the king of this new revolutionary technology and you really think they are just gonna let people "jump ship" when a new alternative arrives?? HELL NO!!! FB will do everything in their power to make sure you get depended on the quest ecosystem so that its becomes almost impossible to move on, kinda like how people can't switch from Windows to Linux because that's the os they have been using ever since they were born. There is also this strange obsession with brand loyalty among fans of a product in recent years just look at the stupid console wars consisting of xbox fans, playstation fans and nintendo manchildrens who will argue with each other about their exclusives day and night, that's the future vr users are heading to. That's why in my eyes if you ever buy a quest headset you lose your right to criticise FB on their bullshit, you have already financially gave your support and will continue to do so to play games on their platform so why should they ever care what you have to say. You can go ahead and call me a gatekeeper, a hater or a rich prick but I don't care, sure in the short run the quest 2 headset is a great deal for price and accessibility but I the long run you will probably end up regretting it. The "solution" from Thrill in this video just feels like either optimistic ignorance or an excuse to milk more quest 2 videos.
Yeah that pretty much sums up my feelings. Accessible VR is important, and it will happen, but I hope it isn't by Meta's hand. We need to abandon their platform while they're still young and focus on supporting more transparent efforts to make VR cheap.
He wont he just said he rather make money that affect his channel, so he wont post things that create less views...he will just keep promoting meta is what he said, and this video is to "justify" and make himself feel good about it in hopping people will forgive him.
IF this is to work it needs to be taken VERY seriously by a LARGE majority of the VR community and actually implemented. All new and potential VR users need to be informed and brought fully on board with this plan. Otherwise, those who dont know, don't care, or don't get it will ruin the plan by continuing to feed their money Meta. Oh, and you can bet Meta will be trying to sabotage this in many ways if it even appears like it might work so you all will have to be on guard for that.
Hey, I think you have thought a lot about this and I respect and appreciate both your love for VR and the community, as well as your clear view of the catastrophe that VR will become under the guidance/control of Meta. I would like to challenge your strategy by simply saying that joining something you fundamentally disagree with just to get there faster will never get you where you want to be. There is no hurry with VR, except that WE all want it faster. But VR is inevitable. Making a deal with the devil because I want to be the best guitarist in the world (without the thousands of hours it takes to do it on my own) never ends well for the musician, but it always ends well for the devil. To think that the community can maintain some significant level of control, or even autonomy (as a community), with Meta as the benefactor of VR just isn't realistic. If our goal is really for the health and protection of VR as a concept, and for the VR community specifically, then I say slow down and support healthy competition that stops the snowball, even if it means many people don't get introduced to VR, or don't have an easy entry point. If having an easy mass entry point means that the future of VR is locked into a toxic tyranny - it's better for them to wait and support a healthier, more robust VR future. Having the masses adopt VR in a way that railroads the future of VR is too high a price to pay for such a fundamentally formative technology.
THIS! WELL SAID! Why support them (meta) when you don't agree with the way they are handling it. Don't give them a penny. Open source should be the only way for VR.
I don’t really even have the space or time or lifestyle for VR yet and it’s going to be a while until I might get there. I’d say I got my 300 dollars worth from my quest 1, however dead it is. But I don’t think that buying anything else meta right now is worth my future VR experience.
Well said. Not recommending the Quest 2 is gatekeeping, but is gatekeeping corporate hell that bad? A stance like this is basically like saying "I like vaping so much, it would be elitist and hypocritical to keep others from the community. Since cigarettes are the cheapest way into vaping, as long as vape pens and juice cost more than cigarettes I am morally obligated to recommend cigarettes to newbies."
So your suggestion to someone who is curious about VR would be to either take out a loan that they possibly can't afford, or just refrain from ever trying it for the foreseeable future, for the greater good? The more people use it, the more demand there is. The greater the demand, the more other companies will fill the gap. There's nothing Meta can do to prevent that, however much they'd like to. I actually could afford a Valve Index if I really wanted one. And now after a using the Quest 2 for a month, I might actually consider it at some point... If I could be convinced that it was actually better, aside from the feeling of moral superiority it might give me. But people have been talking about VR since like the 60s, and all I've ever heard my entire life is: it may change the world one day, hypothetically... But for now, it's a clunky, awkward toy with bad graphics that makes you sick. There's zero chance I would have thrown down 1K just to find out if it was any good yet.
@@a8lg6p Do you think that the lack of competition in VR hardware is due to the fact that potential competitors think there is low demand for VR? That's rich. All the tech giants know exactly what's up. The problem is Facebook managed to gobble up market share by selling the hardware dirt cheap, bring people into the ecosystem, and use their leverage to gain control of game developers, giving them control over the whole VR space. Now the competition can't pull the same move and sell hardware at a loss because FB already has the lion's share of the market, and actually trying to make a compelling product at a good price point is impossible due to the R&D costs and FB undercutting you on pricing.
I love how so many VR RUclipsrs are talking about this. I've been thinking of making a video on it myself. Thank you Thrill for doing this for our community. Edit: Why am I getting likes.
Love the channel, and would love to agree... but this is kinda the same discussion as loot boxes. The corporations see a small, informed, passionate niche that understands what's going on and want change... and a LAAAAAAAARGE, indifferent mass that only wants the product. gotta keep those investors happy :) you want real change? open source!
I have never signed into my quest 2 with a Facebook account and it has never even phoned home to Facebook over the internet. I hope the homebrew community continues to grow and we get a proper open source custom firmware for it. It's a great PC headset and the sidequest devs very talented creative people.
You're 100% right. PC, consoles, and smartphones went through the same path. One or two leaders that were the only ones in town so they dominated the market, but most of those have more choice now.
Smartphones have two choices: iOS and Android. Consumer PCs have two choices: MacOS and Windows (ChromeOS kinda, but not really. There's the handful of Linux distros too, but they're not much of a competitor on the consumer market). Sure there are choices, but a duopoly is hardly an improvement over a monopoly.
This is such a powerful conversation - I'm so glad you have stated what we have all been thinking. What started as an enthusiast technology is now the basis of serious philosophical discussion. VR as a whole is based on a really strong community, and all we need to do is invite others to join us in our experiences, and to mold Meta and the VR space to our benefit. And finally, while Meta is “not my metaverse”, quest users are a stepping stone towards the future we want - just don’t let Meta’s vision destroy ours! Thanks for speaking up thrill ;)
@BaxiTube what is your opinion and stance on Sony in the vr space? I personally see them as a lesser of two evils as they are a semi closed ecosystem like meta but at least they don't specialize in data mining I'm curious to see Sonys new psvr but I'm admittedly getting impatient and can't afford a PC build at these inflated gpu and cpu prices
Thanks for talking about this Thrill! As a vr indie dev I want to be on the right side of this argument. (The scary thing is I'm Legit scared that even comments like this get seen by Meta and hurt my chances of getting on their platform... )
@BaxiTube That's harsh. Surviving in the industry means making such choices. And with Meta's presence, it's very risky to limit your audience to only outside of them. A boycott won't achieve much with how much they have ingrained themselves as THE option for consumer VR. Ultimately, the best action to do would probably? be to try to offer creations to as many platforms as possible, but that takes time and effort.
@@Sail_VR don’t let it, if you look at literally anyone that has the quest or has even recommended the quest he’s saying the same bullshit to them. It’s clearly a kid that listened for the first five minutes and thinks he’s a hardass.
I bought a second-hand quest 2 and love it that it got me into VR, but besides the exclusives (RE4) and the 2 games I already bought through the store, all my money is going towards steam VR games instead. Wireless airplay is really cool, I wish another company would add this to their headset. I'm also skipping their official accessories, Kiwi has a really good elite replacement. Next step is to figure out how to root it and sideload fun stuff.
I'll admit, I've had similar thoughts about simply making FB pay the upfront cost of innovating the VR industry and then dropping them like a bad habit. But I don't think Thrill is taking the threat of FB as seriously as he should. It's nice to think that another company will eventually create a headset and an online community that is strong enough to compete with FB, but there's no guarantee that will ever happen. FB are doing and will do everything they can to corner this market and we also can't underestimate peoples' tendencies to always choose what is familiar over what is smart.
In most areas whoever grows first remains the standard. When was the last time any of us used a competitor of RUclips? It takes some severe shooting-themselves-in-the-foot like Digg or Tumblr for that to change. I do agree with Thrill's sentiment for the immediate situation, I do feel that it is okay to recommend Quest 2. But most people that I have helped get into VR have agreed to go for the bigger experience of the Index first, and most that went for the Quest 2 first were eager upgrade from it. The big picture of competition is important, I think the current dilemma won't last long.
Thanks for putting this out. I JUST today received my first VR system in the mail - the Valve Index, and this makes me feel like it was the right decision - albeit, and expensive one. Looking forward to diving deeper into the industry and community.
Im scared... I just want to be able to get into VR for the first time, and yet it seems everything is going downhill... Metaphorically, this train is going downhill faster than I can catch up to it and hop onboard. I hope VR becomes open and cheaper for everyone in the future
The one thing that bothers me about this video is that 99% of the time when someone brings out a video like this, within a year, they either go silent, sell out to the industry or reduce the amount of videos they produce. Please continue to be the 1% cos I really enjoy your content.
I mean he is already saying don't boycott and just support and buy meta because it will totally get better later after they become even more monopolistic. Not sure about that one.
There's a reason you keep winning the VR influencer of the year awards, and it's exactly this. Yet again thanks for saying what sorely has been needed to be said
The gaming industry VR has been a failure, overall. And I predicted this many years ago. It just wasn't "Reality" enough. You can't really grab a physical gun and feel it in your hands and start shooting it with real recoil from each shot, you can't feel the walls in your surroundings, you can't physically jump forward and have the effects of the world around you, touching water or other players and feel the cold or the heat of the environment, the effects of an earthquake underneath your feet. You can't feel any of it. So this isn't virtual reality, this is fake vision and sound reality and it is not enough to emerge yourself in the illusion. And from these confusing effects you'll only get a headache and get dizzy from time to time, which isn't fun.
I’ve been playing VR for years and know all about the weight, honesty I’d rather have a index but that’s just too expensive for me. Still I really hope that there will be better competition and a fair market. So that the vr industry will grow!
I'm glad to hear you would scrutinize Valve the same way if they were the market leaders, but let's be real. Valve would never push VR hardware or software to be more closed. The Valve Index is impressively modular, and the Steam Deck gives you root access by default! Not to mention, Valve is clearly committed to decoupling PC gaming from Windows using Linux, which is open-source.
They are still gatekeepers by having no entry-level affordable tech. You forget everyone isn't a tech nerd. It will fizzle out if they only cater to nerds. A realistic Metaverse isn't built on enthusiasts but, newbies. Grandma effortlessly being immersed in a VR landscape, the medical industry finding applications for it, corporate and freelance affordability. That's how the internet and console gaming boomed the way it did. This gamer elitism needs to die or we will all suffer. Even us tech enthusiast nerds.
Gaben does really good stuff, but we should forget that he also wants profit. he is not jesus. but it seems like he care a bit more about the consumer and the general market.
Hey Thrill, i want to Thank you for your Content. I think youre right and love your attitude. Recently i ordered a quest 2. I had my doubts about VR and couldnt get the Hype about it. The Minute i switched it on, i was blown away and fully immersed. RUclips cannot transport how it feels to play actually VR. Im so glad youtubers like you exist. a root for quest2 would be amazing, but i dont think the people capable of it, already jumped on the Train (at least not that much). an so it will take some time to achieve root access maybe someday ill do research on my own :D
I think this is why you got the VR Influencer award 2 years in a row, cause you don't hold anything back and give the realistic view. Turning a blind eye to the bad things don't change the fact they are not there, in fact I believe it unwittingly encourages bad practices.
Exactly, he should be encouring real change, not sit iddle to it happening all around us....I mean cmon how can you mean such awards then tell people to go destroy humanity?
Spectacular video. The issue of what to recommend has been something that’s always in the back of my mind when requested. You’ve broken down the issue perfectly. Thank you for creating this.
I’ve been doing research on VR and the Metaverse for a class project I’m in and during my research I came across a very alarming quote from the creator of VR: “”Jaron Lanier, the computer scientist credited as the father of virtual reality, offers some dark words on the subject. “If you run [the metaverse] on a business model that's similar to the one that Facebook runs on, it'll destroy humanity,” says Lanier, presently a researcher at Microsoft. “I'm not saying that rhetorically. That is a literal and specific prediction that humanity could not survive that.””” I came across your channel while doing research for this project and I find your views interesting on this subject simply because you believe so much in VR. I have a genuine question and I don’t want to come off as an asshole but, why do you believe so much in VR? Do you really think that this technology could really be used to change the world for the better? What world does that look like? Not expecting an answer but in general I think these are questions we should really be asking ourselves
This is a survival of the fittest scenario. VR offers an incredible amount of useful simulations for any subject, far more than games or social applications, as long as these simulations are created and applied in real life. The destruction of society comes in when VR escapism is used to replace reality. What I mean by this is, rather than use it for knowledge, majority may just play games or hang out in social apps, wasting away by accomplishment of nothing. My take is "use it right and don't fall into the trap", since this technology is coming, won't be stopped, and is highly addictive. As someone who lived before the dawn of VR it's wise to pass this on to future generations, because there's enough unproductive youth currently wasting time on tiktok.. which to me already hits as destruction of the future..
@@smittyvanjagermanjenson182 I dunno, people were saying the exact same things about the internet when it really started to take off. Also game consoles. And television. Definitely don't let it take precedence of your life of course, but worst case scenario is Facebook takes total control of the VR environment and everyone's data gets harvested. There's still plenty of real life to live that plenty of people aren't willing to give up any time soon. The fear of VR taking over people's lives and leading to the downfall of society more stems from the fear of the unknown.
@@PopLadd everyone's data gets harvested no matter who runs this. "A fake world is a lot less painful than the real one", a quote I heard that worries me for the future.. but let's hope for the best.
I'm glad you feel the same way, thank you for your message. I'm waiting for my Lynx-R1 so that I can finally have fun wirelessly without worrying about my data.
I can't see my previous comment so I'm hoping you didn't delete it. But I'll reiterate: I really love seeing you ideate, it shows your passion. But alas: A community is only centralized by what it subscribes to. And in this case, VR. Other than that, we are fully decentralized and ready to be taken down by what is otherwise an incredibly powerful company that is reaaally good at polarizing people. They do this shit for fun with fb. This sense of urgency doesn't really exist. We don't NEED to have VR shipped to the masses yet. We're good the way we are, "wait" is a perfectly acceptable move until we have more considerably sized players that can solidify a free, open market. Finally, monopolies are a massive threat to any economic and politic system known to man. Even more when the idea of a monopoly comes from the one company that is good at dividing people and our only shot at "having a voice" is staying united, it truly cannot work. May I propose focusing your content on companies that try to deliver affordable VR?
I totally agree! Well said! Idon't understand why is it so hard for people to wait, and why we need that VR explodes in the mass market right now. It's totally fine if mass adoption starts in even 10 years from now, especially if that adoption is of open standard that isn't run/owned by greedy and corrupt people. I myself for example have been truly desiring to get into VR so much, from the very start and I have been almost daily casually watching the development of VR, hoping that I will be able to start experiencing VR for myself. And yet, no matter how excited I get very often, I never lose my resolve that, based on my financial and other circumstances, I simply cannot jump into VR waters very unfortunately, even though I crave for it a lot every single day. I am still waiting for my first VR headset that is worth my investment and my support, to come to the market. I think the next Valve's headset really might be the one that delivers my dreams and which I will save my money for in order to buy it, unless it ends up disappointing me like all the headsets so far have been, for one reason or another. If everyone was patient and not so quick to jump ship with anything they can get hands on, without being able to residt their consumer urges, there wouldn't have been such a monopoly like it is now.
@@jameskirk4692 Very fair point with "residing to their consumer urges". Meta ain't no stranger to our yearning for consumption. That's why they're coming up with an egregious offer: give us ludicrous rights over your privacy and we give you what you crave (consumption) right NOW. Therefore it creates this sense of urgency which is only conflated in Thrill's eyes since he's a staple of the VR influencer community so naturally people will flock to him for answers. So Thrill being ready to give in to the rotten proposition from Meta isn't great news. We don't need to hold steady as masses. Instead we need our big voices - such as Thrill - to hold steady for us. When they open the gates and say "go", it has to be a legitimate offer, one made in good faith. With Meta, there's no such thing.
But I mean the quest 2 is a great headset for the price with alot of content and you can play pcvr witelessly with it most people could give a shit less about what the company itself is into or doing....which is what Facebook is banking on
@@dustinchristian6043 Exactly. The Quest 2 is good value, no doubt about that. We're discussing more on what value YOU bring forward in order to let that piece of plastic capture your attention. Are you giving away your money to a company and that's the end of the transaction? Great! But - if you are offering on a platter: your current and future data, privacy right, control over its use (locked to your facebook account) althewhile feeding a company known for guiding its userbase to division and harm for its own profit - then how could you, in good faith, tell yourself that it's still a great transaction? Imagine this - if Apple came in 2007 and said: we are offering the world an AMAZING device (the iPhone 1) but with it you relinquish your right to privacy and feed us all the information that we need in order to make our clients divide you as a human race. Would the world buy into that device back then? So why do it today? What's the rush?
@@Boogieeeeeeee I get what you're saying but as we can tell by the ammount of people still using facebook/still buying quests most people just don't care...me personally I have a quest 2 but until valve releases a wireless index I just don't see myself switching not because I can't afford it because I can but because I'm a vr user that prefers wireless stand alone or pcvr (I do both)....just can't deal with the wires personally kinda breaks my immersion...also the ammount of content I get with the quest is just more
I'm sorry thrill, love your content and wish I could meet you some day in VR to chat properly but this sounds pretty naïve. There is very little chance of a wholesale abandonment of facebook's meta after they have secured complete market dominance with an even larger user base. As you correctly state they are already almost there, those problems you state at the beginning of the video wont diminish in the future when they have even more users and more games and more companies dependent on their ecosystem for their existence. It will be the opposite, it will get worse. After all we already have evidence of this: time after time Facebook are called out, loudly and publicly in the press and all over the internet for shady practices, repeated massive data breaches and more and it has seemingly little to no effect on them. Why would this change in the VR space? Look at Apple, their anti consumer, anti competition closed ecosystem has had millions of users for decades. They even have an army of hardcore fans who will defend them seemingly forever all while they themselves are continually getting ripped off by Apples practices. The only solution now is to take those first two options that you dislike; tell people to save up, tell them to wait, tell them to boycott facebook. It's the only chance we have.
It's a hard sell there. With the pricing on the quest compared to proper pcvr, you're telling people to wait for what could be months, years, or just never at all. We can't see the future, and we can't say for sure that anyone else will bring that accessibility to VR. Edit: Totally right about Facebook though, they're a monolith, and they don't just fade. Their hooks are in deep.
@@The_Bird_Bird_Harder Yes I know but seeing as there isn't currently a competitor (and probably won't be at that price point unless another big entity decides to also loss lead). But I don't have another solution for how to prevent Facebook controlling the industry. It sucks, but I don't see any other way for the moment.
More constructive but I still think you need to concentrate on advocating for more cooperation between the players other than FB. If VRChat, RecRoom and NeosVR devised an open-standard for portals that opened in each other's application they'd instantly have a much stronger Metaverse offering than FB will have for years yet.
@Game Over So far I've owned a vive and a index, only broke one index cable over the 5 years I've owned them, could be because I've got a polley system tho
Corporations were never meant to only cater to their shareholders. They are meant to care about stakeholders, which means more than just stocks. It means the communities they operate in and their employees are huge components of their over all worth and corresponding potential. Unfettered greed took over a long ass time ago and the best we can do is try to mitigate where we are able. I love VR and hope it can work through growing pains as an industry to provide consumers with some really great experiences.
I really love your content. You are so helpful and knowledgeable😃I appreciate your honesty, I have many of the same thoughts. People like you really add value to they industry 🥂 also also we bought our first vr headset today 🎉🎊😍Oc2 ! Excited to tap in! Thank you🙏🏽 oh we love you too lol 💕
I just started watching your videos wanting more info on VR. I've never owned a VR unit as it always seems something that was wayyy too expensive to only be upgraded to a newer better model before you could pay off the bill on the first one you just bought. I don't know if I'll pull the trigger soon, but seems things are somewhat getting more streamline. Like you said though, the market is monopolized by a couple so until there is a lot more choices that are just as good as the others I'll probably still sit on the sidelines and watch the progression. Your videos are very informative and I appreciate your work.
I appreciate that you have identified this issue. However, this is a problem across the entire economy. The barrier to entry is way too high for most business to jump into VR. Meta has the billions to burn and sell their products at a loss and that will guaranty they will dominate the market. conversely, because Meta is willing to have such a financial loss it will move the industry forward faster than it otherwise would have. I don't know the perfect answer but I am frustrated that this seems to be the business model for so many large corporations. Feels anti-consumer, maybe not at first because of the cheaper hardware, but once they have established a monopoly then they can jack up the prices and the consumer no longer have any other options.
Welcome to modern day unchecked capitalism where only monopolies can survive and cooperate with governing bodies to push control over masses thus guaranteeing power for both.
Wow. My grandson got a Quest 2 for Christmas, and I had so much fun with it, I started exploring the VR purchase options and found them sadly thin -- discouraging, especially coupled with That Detestable Facebook Affiliation (tm). Then I stumbled across your outstanding commentary. My appreciation. Your post was simply amazing for someone who came in search of some enlightenment, found comprehensive (and comprehensible) honesty, logic and reason, and was able to finally come to a somewhat comfortable decision. Many thanks. This was extremely well done. I'm going to get an Oculus, but I'm not going to marry one (unless someone roots it!)
Meta/oculus will be the death of VR sadly. Notice how games like resident evil 4 and other exclusive only to oculus. This kind of practice is exactly what will leave to the death of VR
I take issue with your attitude- you can't have the moral high ground and say "let's manipulate and use facebook"... you can't do the same thing that you're criticizing Facebook for and be the hero, you'll just be the next villain. You're absolutely right that a vr monopoly is a scary thought, especially from a company that has shown so much disdain for personal privacy. I appreciate you using your voice to try to do good for the vr community. Thank you! Just be careful not become the villain.
Totally agree (100%) , but as I said earlier, I'd suggest pointing out what meta/facebook does every time you review any of their product, to be doing the right thing after mentioning your honest opinion on the product, you should also mention the truth behind the company's name and the facts that backs it up, that meta is core is a data selling company, they have done it before, and got away with it, so they would do it again and be way more careful this time. otherwise, you'd be helping the buggy man and his plans. Do you think if there is a new unknown rival for PC VR right now, would the community support it financially even if the product itself is missing some essential upgrades of there is room for improvement (like being released in alpha or beta to get some financial support )?
Thrills steps to make VR better Step 1: Root the quest 2 Step 2: Ride Oculus's ("Meta's") tail coat Only until VR Becomes Mainstream and there is actual competition for cheaper hardware Step 3: Boycott Oculus all together Step 4: Have everyone use there own voices to tell other VR company's what they can do to make VR Better This is just a quick and dirty run down its far better explained in the video, The plan is going to require alot of voices so if anyone is hesitant to get into VR I encourage them to try it now, we need to grow and expand our community in order for companies to listen to us show them that they cant make all the choices and put restrictions on what we can and cant do in the VR world, I dub this the Open VR revolution we will take control, the first step, Is rooting the quest
I've been thinking about this a lot and you are right to make this video. However I honestly believe most of your concerns are / will be unfounded. Meta should be praised for giving oxygen to VR when some would say it's gasping for air. Honestly Meta is VR's greatest chance right now but the investment AMD, Intel, Microsoft and Nvidia are putting in off the back of what Meta are doing is staggering. If anything Meta's drive has given a wakeup call to the industry giants and in the next 10 years you'll see a much more diverse VR industry as a result, where all sorts of companies will have there say. It's really is too early to judge Meta and history tells us Meta position is very vulnerable and the true dominant players will emerge from a sea change of future discoveries, platforms and technologies.
Thanks so much for this VIDEO, I COMPLETELY AGREE... BTW Rooting the Quest is a Solid GREAT Idea... YOUR DEFINITELY A SMART PERSON... WOW... Me and my peoples appreciate you.
@BaxiTube yeah, but still, openly acknowledging that they're a hostile entitity is more than anyone else is willing to do. Everyone else is just silent.
Great video man, I’m new to VR, I’m a child of the 80’s and VR was always a pipe dream and any VR tech was always a giant disappointment.. ( e.g. Nintendo’s Virtual Boy ) not even that long ago when the Lenovo Star Wars headset came out, same let down. So when I got a quest 2 purely by chance as the result of a trade, I was expecting the same thing and fully intended on selling it but figured I’d try it out first for the hell of it.. I was blown away.. it was like what I’d seen on sci-fi shows and imagined as a kid.. and now I play the thing everyday… haven’t even turned on my Xbox since I got it… I don’t give two shits about Meta, I’m just glad the tech is moving forward… anyone talking about boycotting the quest 2 or any meta vr tech for that matter because they don’t like the shitty way they do business is like wanting the plane your flying in to crash because you don’t like the pilot… it’s pretty asinine and short sided…
I bought a Quest 2 in April. It's my 3rd headset, having started with a DK2 and then a CV1. I think it's a great piece of hardware for the money, and I always recommend it to anyone who wants to get into VR. Not because it's the 'best' headset on the market, or even the cheapest (Google Cardboard is still a viable starter option if you already have the phone), but what it is, is "good enough". You can spend crazy money on VR, but eventually you have to decide what is "good enough". The Quest 2 is that headset. I don't pretend to understand everything about what 'Meta' is, or where they're going with it, and to be honest, I'm not sure I need to. There have been two issues holding back VR over the past 8 years or so - firstly the cost of entry, and secondly the lack of software. Quest 2 is basically solving these dilemmas. It would be incredibly churlish and silly to be sniffy about that. Sure, the Index and the Reverb G2 etc might be better headsets, but the quality difference just doesn't justify the price difference. I'm also a developer, and I can see the huge potential that is there for a single marketplace and a dominant affordable headset. So long as the API remains open, and works across all headsets & is not locked down, there is no downside that I can see.
But the API is not open, the quest store is very exclusive and only works on meta devices. The only way this benefits you as a developer is if you have no morals and care only about short term monetary gain (or maybe long term if they keep a chokehold on mainstream VR). Meta will do its very best to lock people (consumers and developers) into their platform, as they always have done Meta doesn't give a shit about innovation, it's purely the means to an end (the end being full control of VR or at least mainstream VR). They've realized Facebook doesn't have a great future so they're looking for something new to monopolise.
@@hrmny_ I can use OpenXR to target the Quest 2 (along with any other VR headset). I promise you that is very open. Your concerns here are unfounded & based on inaccurate assumptions. Have a nice day.
videos like these are why I unsubscribed, we sold all our Quests from the channel, we are the only channel without a facebook headset anymore and that keeps telling people to stay away from their hardware because of the atrocities and governments suing them for all the wrong they do in the world.
I'm definitely in opposition here to recommending someone compromise to get into vr by going with a quest. The claim that people "don't know about all the baggage and potential issues" just feels too optimistic even for me. People know what facebook is and has done over the years, it's becoming fairly well known about oculus's being owned by facebook even on the mainstream scale, and i'd like to be equally optimistic that maybe people are becoming just a little, just SLIGHTLY more wary of giving away so much acceptance and trust like they have up till now to these big companies that ABSOLUTELY do not care about you, and only care about your money, and your data. Which all comes around to, again, fuck the quests, be patient, get a system you can do more with and have more fun with outside of just vr (ie, a powerful computer when hardware is more available), and wait to afford the far more functional and less restrictive system
Hmm... I have recently purchased a Quest 2 to get into the VR "trend" and to try out some games with family. Is it recommended I return the headset and wait for 1+ years, or just purchase it now?
@@dustinchristian6043 that is a really good way to put it, i guess i'll keep it! the retailer i purchased it from lets me return it till january anyway. thanks for your input, it helped a lot!
@@nidoruzi i'll try to summarize my thoughts here as best i can, but i do tend to ramble, so, sorry ^^;;. Basically, i'd say, if someone is already in the facebook umbrella, so to speak, i can't really fault them for going with the quest, despite as much bias as i do admit to having about the company and headset. If someone isn't in that umbrella, my kneejerk reaction, yes, is to say wait, save, and get a better setup. Really i'd say it also comes down to future upgrade likelihood too. Sometimes buying cheap means having spent more overall before your happy, without even worrying at all about the facebook side. I knew someone who wanted to get in cheap, but not with a quest, so they got a cosmos. But the upgrade route for that is super expensive, more total for them than if they had originally just bought an index. *shrugs* So i'd say do some research and see what works best for you. I'm sorry i can't offer more than anecdotes. Little tired right now ^^;; but i hope it helps some
Tetherless headsets are (as of current) the future of VR, at least in UKs military companies. We've been looking at vr for a few years, but the quest 2 really opened up a lot of avenues being a standalone and easy to setup. Just have to keep in mind its got the strength of a modern phone for making training sims/games
I am very excited about trying to getting in to VR, but I am not keen on the dependency of a Facebook profile to use the Quest 2. However looking at other options is off-putting when you look at the cost of the VR setup being 3 to 5 times more expensive, which is a lot of money to drop just to get entry in to something that I may or may not enjoy. So I am going to bite the bullet and get a quest and save some money to upgrade my PC and get a better headset (if I decide that it is worth it for me to do so)
I dont see why Meta running the VR platform in the world as a huge problem. We basically accept Apple and Google's monopoly in the app-store today, and Meta is just an extension of that same reality (no pun intended) to VR. Actually, the problem is not Meta, its the technologies themselves, that are in such a nascent stage that they need a trillion dollar company to invest in them and thus eventually build a moat around it (technology -> platform -> $$$). The only issue I see here is Meta doing it much faster (< 5years) than Apple of Google, both of which took over a decade to achieve the kind of market dominance they wield now. The only option now is to make an alternative open-source based platform (probably using linux), but thats exactly what Google did in the face of competition from Apple. So I guess it doesn't matter much in the long run.
There's definitely going to be competition at the $300 price-point...or cheaper. The part that is hard to overcome is the software support. The sooner another company can break into that price point, the easier it will be to get that support... assuming meta doesn't buy up all VR developers.
The other thing I don't like about the quest, is that it takes away innovation from PC VR games. Or rather has the potential to, also it's where money can be made for developers. I'm already seeing more and more games being made for the quest, as standalone experiences. And while I understand not everyone has a powerful gaming PC, and I understand people being able to play resident evil 4 natively on the headset is great. But the headset will never be able to perform to the same degree as a gaming computer, which will limit the types of games made, like Half life Alyx probably one the greatest games in terms of polish, design and attention to detail. I do not want cartoony graphics forever in VR, and some day I hope to have Sword art online. But unless they innovate chips to be be able to run to the same level as a gaming pc, sword art online will not be possible, without serious oomph from computer hardware.
Well as far as the question about what VR headset someone should get the very first question you should be asking is if they have a PC or not that way you can understand if it is sensible to suggest something like a valve index. That's what you say...
I would take the Oculus Rift CV1 over the Quest 2 every time. I own both and the Quest 2 only has three advantages, standalone/exclusive games, small setup time and resolution. The rift is lighter, vastly more comfortable, lower latency (even Vs native quest 2 games) and due to its lower resolution you can use a midrange machine from 2014 and still play almost any VR title with it
I literally only want to play h3vr. But my only option really is the index where I am. I am already super paranoid about my data and take extreme measures that already make things harder for me just to protect it. The quest is not even an option. But it's also crazy to get top of the line hardware for one game.
I really hope that some day with enough developers working on VR that VR support comes to Linux. Like you said, open source platforms are good. Valve has recognized this with the steam deck, and with open source technology, you invite more talent to improve it.
The good about the state of vr regarding Meta is that it proves Vr is a viable solution but most likely in standalone option . I would'n be surprise if we see a company like Sony or Microsoft launching standalone headset . When there is a new market , big companies take a piece of the cake and it make the market grow and it's good for consumer over time .
i was here before the quest 2 came out. With the rift S of the table and my headset dying, my only other option is the reverb G2 v2. Sad to see the repairability for the Rift s is now dead.
This is my day one like day one one I just thought about getting into the VR tech/gaming industry because of the possibilities and 😭😭 it sounds like I just walked into a war lol I’m gonna watch your videos and get updated but it’s been some months since this video came out and if you or anyone has some idea on what headset to purchase to get started that would be great I’m really excited on the possibilities as well in the virtual realm and despite being 20 I feel like an old man not knowing twitch or discord stuff 😂😂😂 I totally get the idea and really just excited to hopefully be a member of what seems a crazy unique community while it’s young
Yeah I was hoping that someone else was going to release a Quest 2 direct competitor but unfortunately nobody did. I just bought the Quest 2 last month & I only use it for PC VR. My first VR Headset was the Samsung Odyssey Plus Mixed Reality Headset I still use it but I was looking for a company to make a $300 to $500 headset that matched the Quest 2 as far as functionality but maybe offering something a little extra. Not having to deal with Facebook or (META) would have been more than enough at these price points for me. I totally agree with you about the Metaverse, if we learned anything from Ready Player One it's that a corporate money driven Metaverse is no good.
I have some free "not my metaverse" pins available in my discord server if you want it.
Discord.gg/Thrill
Let's talk. Do you agree with what I say here?
I’m o happy that you’re standing up for the vr community.
What you've said here has inspired me even more than before to do what I can against meta, even if it isn't much.
tsefresfesf
@@hollyc5417 ppl who say it's pointless make it pointless
GREAT video! My thoughts exactly. Thank you.
what worries me is that by staying on the meta boat we will end up building the cannons that sink every other ship that tries to compete
I love that analogy and you're absolutely right. It's rather naive of Thrill to think we will be able to veer the ship in the direction we want. Once their competition is dead no one will jump ship as there will be no other ship left in the Ocean. Then you're stuck with a dictator of a captain.
That is definitly a concern, but I think so long as we don't go aboard with blinders on our headsets, and so long as we as a community stick together, we can still help stear the ship. If ten thousand people crowd to a corner of the boat at once, the boat will lean that direction. Lets keep our eyes, ears, and mind open and see where this goes, then if it does capsize, lets make sure theres room on the debris for Jack to get out of the water. We need more life rafts!
@@billfortney6560 you're naive
Lol, your metaphore doesn't translate well to reality. Crowding everyone to the corner of a large ship won't redirect it but sending angry letters and posting enthusiastic comments is going to do even less. Look how Facebook worked out. Meta is literally the same company run by the same people and you won't get them to change a thing.
@@Linkmegax that's not entirely true, they are reversing the Facebook login, they stopped when we didn't want ads on paid games, they shifted focus to porting older games based off feedback on Reddit, they even unblocked revive at one point after it was basically banned. All because the community spoke out. It doesn't absolve the company of every mistake, but it's not all bad either.
And so begins the open source VR revolution! ✊
For real though we definitely need to root a quest 2, that would be a huge move
Hell yeah, we just need those who are capable of it to do it...
i will immediately be getting one the second someone releases an exploit
Hell yeah...
Im in...
It can't be THAT hard. I mean, it's just Android after all. Maybe someone should try getting the XDA guys on board. They are absolute Android masters. Surely they can pull it off. Who knows, maybe one day we might even get custom ROMs for the Quest. That would be sick!
Could this be done through bountysource?
At this point we can only wish for Valve to cram the Steam Deck hardware inside a headset and take back a part of the market and prevent a monopoly from Meta.
Genius. Pretty epic hope there.
thats... Possible, actualy! Hmm...
Yep, this isn't really much of a stretch. The steam deck hardware makes the quest look like a potato. Change the form factor, put some lenses in front of that screen and you have yourself a vr headset. You can even make it so you have a computer screen in VR and use a keyboard and mouse and play 2d games like you would on a PC, but with your headset on, and then play a vr game... or a 3d desktop game where the game comes out of the monitor.
This is such a straight forward thing that it would boggle my mind if someone in valve wasn't already prototyping it. And then, they have an entire storefront of vr games instantly available from launch day.
standalone has no future beyond what it is right now, a glorified phone vr solution. Unless we miraculously discover some hyper advanced new battery technology (which we have been trying at for the past 100 years), or we somehow develop super efficient chips that can compete with desktop hardware while being power efficient (unlikely since the speed of advancement for such progress has slowed considerably and is soon expected to halt entirely).
What you'll get is a super hot, battery burning, mediocre heavy headset. it is simply not viable.
@@yesyes-om1po I don't know the wattage of the xr2 cpu but the low power 13th gen i5 is only 35w, and you can underclock it further than thst
It feels amazing to be part of this community, the fact that we are literally watching one of the biggest technological leaps happen right in front our eyes is incredible, and we’ll all be here for it!
You will live in pods and eat the bugs as you are told. And the only media that you will be permitted to consume is what is approved by your overlord Zuck.
Idk about all of us. I might just have to unplug my grandpas life support to charge my quest and worship the overlord zuck😁
Technology isn't a solution. Its the Problem.
@@GayBowser42069 disgusting
@@Superabound2 technology isn’t a problem, it’s how people use it
That's why I save money for valve index. I will never ever buy anything that has a Facebook implementation, and yes, the metaverse is freaking scary. Love how people all feel the same about that.
We got HP Reverb G2. Yeah the tracking isn't as good as Quest, but it's a good budget headset for its 4K HMD. It is $200 more than Quest 2... but again, it's good for what it is.
Speaking absolute facts. I agree with everything you said here 100% Thank you for making this, I could not have worded it any better.
hey man i love your videos!
i could not agree more
the mysticle and thrillseeker, the 2 kings of vr content
Agreed. Meta is trying to control the VR marketplace and we all know they are doing it, and doing it well. This needs to stop so other companies can get a taste if the market.
Vr chat is already the meta verse
Big respect for Thrill, for putting his opinion on the table, I watch him since he had less than 10K subs to see he growing and becoming who he is now, I am so happy to say that he is one of the best RUclipsrs I have already saw in my life, not just for being honest and having transparency, but also for not having trouble of fear to do it. Keep it up Thrill, you are a legend.
he didnt put his opinion on the table
@@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD dude, the title says literally ''my stance''
same
@@snapper26 he didnt put anything on the table, he just said his opinion
@@BEATMASTERTHETHIRD That's literally what the commenter says, "putting his opinion on the table." On the table is just a metaphor for putting his opinion out there.
The premise that we'll just be using Meta as a "ship" to drive the industry forward and that we should "abandon" it as soon as the competition is further along doesn't make much sense to me. That's under the impression that in, let's say 1-3 years from now when we have more competition with standalone headset hardware + software that could compete with Meta at the level of Quest 2 in it's current state, that Meta isn't going to have something that's STILL better by a mile compared to the competition at that point.
Back to the ship analogy - that's like abandoning a luxurious, but affordable, cruise liner with the best offerings for a view of the ocean and more in entertainment available - for the price of your compliance with the rules + a small fee for the ticket to board - versus a small sailboat that you end up paying more than the cruise ship ticket for, but you yourself will own it fully. Yes, you'll have much more freedom, but you'd lack the innovations and features that a cruise ship could provide - though you can at least say that both of them float and take you places you couldn't go otherwise. For the average person that just wants to see the ocean and experience it in the best way possible for a decent price, it makes more sense to go with the cruise ship - but for the more experienced sea-goer, the sailboat might end up becoming a better option for them in long-run. The problem for the sailboat owner though is that it will always lack all the technological features of a cruise ship, so making that switch might not even happen.
Probably not the best way to phrase that, but I hope it makes some sense. Personally, I feel like we just need to see more standalone competition in general - Meta / Oculus definitely has the largest share of headset owners on Steam at around 60%, but that doesn't mean they're at 100 - they don't own the PCVR side of things FULLY, though inevitably they'll own a larger share since a Quest 2 can link to a PC (which of course makes the Quest 2 that much more enticing compared to PCVR-only headsets).
He didn't say to abandon ship. He said to steer the ship where we'd like it to go.
I think you underestimate other hardware.
PSVR 2 is going to have foveated rendering and another thing like that, dualsense features, run using ps5 hardware, 4k screen, insiders saying the library is literally going to dominate vr, etc.
Though I'm not disagreeing with our money helping meta be scumbags.
Finally someone speaking some sense.
@@IskandarTheWack PSVR 2 is something that's still tethered to a console though - it's clear by overall consumer sales that most people would rather spend money on an "all-in-one" standalone headset, rather than a headset that still requires an additional console system to work ($300 USD vs. $1000+ for a decent PCVR setup). The main reason PCVR is probably further ahead than PSVR right now is 1. There really isn't many PSVR exclusives worth investing that much money into to play (though I will say that Fracked looks kinda cool) and 2. Most of the more well known VR titles are either exclusive to the Quest 2, or exclusive to PCVR. Yeah, maybe in a few years PSVR 2 will come out along with some good games, but who's to say that the Quest won't improve further as well? It's basically still the same argument as PCVR vs. standalone - PSVR is still using a console, it's the same concept as PCVR in practice.
Also, I would take any "insider" information with a *massive* grain-of-salt - assuming that every new game that may eventually come out for PSVR 2 is going to be a masterpiece for VR is wishful thinking at best. There might be a 1 or 2, but I doubt it would be enough to warrant people buying a PS5 + the VR hardware just to play it - which would make most of the hardware upgrades sort of pointless if there's no good games that make use of those improvements. Personally, I've tried PSVR for RE7 way back a few years ago at a friend's place - it was alright, but my god the difference between current PSVR and something like a $300 Quest 2 is night and day. It's nice that Playstation are taking the first steps to try and create competition, but they have a massive hill to climb to come anywhere close to the Quest 2's popularity.
yeah I thought it was a bit naïve of a take. Trust me, the users dont use the corporation, the corporation uses the users.
I love the boat analogy. It's really fitting and hopefully we can rise to get them to function how they should and not how they want.
The more money we pay the captain, the more the ship is going to start looking like a battlecruiser. And it's going to send a clear message to any other ships that get too big that it's in their best interest to pool resources.
I thought the analogy was corny. Everyone's hating on FB for a well deserved monopoly. Mark is more excited about this than anyone. He dropped the entry barrier %80 and is spending all the money possible to make our 'ready player one' dreams real. And his platform is going to allow for user created content, probably open source.
@@Slycoop he's not excited about VR as a content creation medium, he's excited about the fact that this is borderline non-invasive mindreading, this is data scraping at the lowest level. i can tell you for a fact that he has no interest in FOSS (for anything other than EOL products)
@@afallingtree9114 Society is so quick to see the worst in people these days. Data analytics is awesome. Imagine getting 10 billion people to use a website where they all enter their demographic information and post their opinion about everything, and then NOT using data analytics to drive successful marketing advertisement campaigns. You would have to be an idiot.
@@Slycoop exactly that. this is why decentralisation matters, we know one person cant be trusted with that level of power regardless of their previous motives.
The jumping ship plan is...
A little risky.
Not everyone is gonna want to jump ship, or maybe there wouldn't be competition and than we're fucked
The problem is I want to jump ship since I’ve had a quest 2 for about half a year, but I don’t have the money for it.
We need someone else to pull a quest 2 move where it’s cheap and affordable but a good offer.
this guy. i saw my first video of him. really love the content u make independantly!!!! u brought me into VR! u will be my go to Vr channel forever!! keep it up and yeah, sometimes that means addapting. im sure u will still make great content! We need you.
I fear that the dream of building up the user base and everyone jumping ship together is incredibly unrealistic.
BUuuut at the same time I know that the company must grow and will grow no matter what we do, so it’s best to spread the message as far as we can.
Good luck and I hope this gets as big as it needs to.
To be fair, I did this with Apple and Android. Apple came out with the iPods and iPhones; I jumped to Android later on. The issue is that it only worked because we had the titan that was Samsung bullying their way in; it took a company that basically owns South Korea and makes everything from paper to self-propelled howitzers (K9 Thunder) to bully their way in.
You do news, games and opinions and it’s all so interesting and entertaining we all love you too thrill
With all the talk of VR and it's history, it shocks me that nobody talks about the grandfather of VR who sold his first unborn son to Zuckerberg and Facebook, causing this in the first place. Palmer Luckey.
Full disclosure: meta/Facebook shareholder over here.
Interesting video that is for sure. One thing I would like to mention, Meta/Facebook does not answer to shareholders either. The reason is because Meta/Facebook is one of the few companies with a double class share structure. This means that individuals with a special type of shares hold tremendous voting power. In other words if every single meta/Facebook shareholder votes to do something but Zuck opposes it means nothing will be done because he holds more than 50% of the voting power. Also, I don’t think the company will allow to be used as your R&D piggy bank but gl.
This, people still really don't understand that if any "they" lets you think you actually have a say inside THEIR system.....you don't, you just think you do.
@@mzaite no that is not what I meant.
While Facebook/meta does not answer to shareholders it does not mean we are without any recourse. Even someone as powerful as the Zuck understands that a market can stay irrational longer that you can stay solvent and all the massive issues that means.
If you don’t like the company do not use their products by all means but my only criticism is to build a relationship with the intent of just jump ship (I don’t think that is healthy for any kind of relationship) instead, be vocal, tell the company, all companies, what you want and see what they can do for you. On the other hand, if you treat any company with the intent of just jumping ship I assure you that the next company is going to think twice before making an investment that may benefit us all. I wrote this in a hurry, sorry for any errors.
Not really a good idea, Thrill is really underestimating how scary and relentless FB is becoming towards the vr market. They have spent billions the past few years and taking losses just to become the king of this new revolutionary technology and you really think they are just gonna let people "jump ship" when a new alternative arrives?? HELL NO!!! FB will do everything in their power to make sure you get depended on the quest ecosystem so that its becomes almost impossible to move on, kinda like how people can't switch from Windows to Linux because that's the os they have been using ever since they were born. There is also this strange obsession with brand loyalty among fans of a product in recent years just look at the stupid console wars consisting of xbox fans, playstation fans and nintendo manchildrens who will argue with each other about their exclusives day and night, that's the future vr users are heading to. That's why in my eyes if you ever buy a quest headset you lose your right to criticise FB on their bullshit, you have already financially gave your support and will continue to do so to play games on their platform so why should they ever care what you have to say. You can go ahead and call me a gatekeeper, a hater or a rich prick but I don't care, sure in the short run the quest 2 headset is a great deal for price and accessibility but I the long run you will probably end up regretting it. The "solution" from Thrill in this video just feels like either optimistic ignorance or an excuse to milk more quest 2 videos.
Yeah that pretty much sums up my feelings. Accessible VR is important, and it will happen, but I hope it isn't by Meta's hand. We need to abandon their platform while they're still young and focus on supporting more transparent efforts to make VR cheap.
You need feature some more VR open source development in your news coverage. It’s a small thing that could help encourage that change.
Agreed, would love to see open source or indie developed VR news too!
He wont he just said he rather make money that affect his channel, so he wont post things that create less views...he will just keep promoting meta is what he said, and this video is to "justify" and make himself feel good about it in hopping people will forgive him.
IF this is to work it needs to be taken VERY seriously by a LARGE majority of the VR community and actually implemented. All new and potential VR users need to be informed and brought fully on board with this plan.
Otherwise, those who dont know, don't care, or don't get it will ruin the plan by continuing to feed their money Meta. Oh, and you can bet Meta will be trying to sabotage this in many ways if it even appears like it might work so you all will have to be on guard for that.
The "meta" editing at the start was amazing and fits perfectly with the music
Hey, I think you have thought a lot about this and I respect and appreciate both your love for VR and the community, as well as your clear view of the catastrophe that VR will become under the guidance/control of Meta.
I would like to challenge your strategy by simply saying that joining something you fundamentally disagree with just to get there faster will never get you where you want to be.
There is no hurry with VR, except that WE all want it faster. But VR is inevitable. Making a deal with the devil because I want to be the best guitarist in the world (without the thousands of hours it takes to do it on my own) never ends well for the musician, but it always ends well for the devil.
To think that the community can maintain some significant level of control, or even autonomy (as a community), with Meta as the benefactor of VR just isn't realistic.
If our goal is really for the health and protection of VR as a concept, and for the VR community specifically, then I say slow down and support healthy competition that stops the snowball, even if it means many people don't get introduced to VR, or don't have an easy entry point. If having an easy mass entry point means that the future of VR is locked into a toxic tyranny - it's better for them to wait and support a healthier, more robust VR future.
Having the masses adopt VR in a way that railroads the future of VR is too high a price to pay for such a fundamentally formative technology.
THIS! WELL SAID! Why support them (meta) when you don't agree with the way they are handling it. Don't give them a penny. Open source should be the only way for VR.
I don’t really even have the space or time or lifestyle for VR yet and it’s going to be a while until I might get there. I’d say I got my 300 dollars worth from my quest 1, however dead it is. But I don’t think that buying anything else meta right now is worth my future VR experience.
Well said. Not recommending the Quest 2 is gatekeeping, but is gatekeeping corporate hell that bad? A stance like this is basically like saying "I like vaping so much, it would be elitist and hypocritical to keep others from the community. Since cigarettes are the cheapest way into vaping, as long as vape pens and juice cost more than cigarettes I am morally obligated to recommend cigarettes to newbies."
So your suggestion to someone who is curious about VR would be to either take out a loan that they possibly can't afford, or just refrain from ever trying it for the foreseeable future, for the greater good?
The more people use it, the more demand there is. The greater the demand, the more other companies will fill the gap. There's nothing Meta can do to prevent that, however much they'd like to.
I actually could afford a Valve Index if I really wanted one. And now after a using the Quest 2 for a month, I might actually consider it at some point... If I could be convinced that it was actually better, aside from the feeling of moral superiority it might give me.
But people have been talking about VR since like the 60s, and all I've ever heard my entire life is: it may change the world one day, hypothetically... But for now, it's a clunky, awkward toy with bad graphics that makes you sick. There's zero chance I would have thrown down 1K just to find out if it was any good yet.
@@a8lg6p Do you think that the lack of competition in VR hardware is due to the fact that potential competitors think there is low demand for VR? That's rich. All the tech giants know exactly what's up. The problem is Facebook managed to gobble up market share by selling the hardware dirt cheap, bring people into the ecosystem, and use their leverage to gain control of game developers, giving them control over the whole VR space. Now the competition can't pull the same move and sell hardware at a loss because FB already has the lion's share of the market, and actually trying to make a compelling product at a good price point is impossible due to the R&D costs and FB undercutting you on pricing.
I love how so many VR RUclipsrs are talking about this. I've been thinking of making a video on it myself. Thank you Thrill for doing this for our community.
Edit: Why am I getting likes.
Love the channel, and would love to agree... but this is kinda the same discussion as loot boxes.
The corporations see a small, informed, passionate niche that understands what's going on and want change... and a LAAAAAAAARGE, indifferent mass that only wants the product.
gotta keep those investors happy :)
you want real change? open source!
You are the voice the VR industry needs! I have a developer team getting into VR and I'm sending this video to them!
I have never signed into my quest 2 with a Facebook account and it has never even phoned home to Facebook over the internet. I hope the homebrew community continues to grow and we get a proper open source custom firmware for it.
It's a great PC headset and the sidequest devs very talented creative people.
You're 100% right. PC, consoles, and smartphones went through the same path. One or two leaders that were the only ones in town so they dominated the market, but most of those have more choice now.
Smartphones have two choices: iOS and Android. Consumer PCs have two choices: MacOS and Windows (ChromeOS kinda, but not really. There's the handful of Linux distros too, but they're not much of a competitor on the consumer market). Sure there are choices, but a duopoly is hardly an improvement over a monopoly.
Yo thrill, I love your content, especially the philosophical shit. Keep it up!
This is such a powerful conversation - I'm so glad you have stated what we have all been thinking. What started as an enthusiast technology is now the basis of serious philosophical discussion. VR as a whole is based on a really strong community, and all we need to do is invite others to join us in our experiences, and to mold Meta and the VR space to our benefit. And finally, while Meta is “not my metaverse”, quest users are a stepping stone towards the future we want - just don’t let Meta’s vision destroy ours!
Thanks for speaking up thrill ;)
@BaxiTube what is your opinion and stance on Sony in the vr space? I personally see them as a lesser of two evils as they are a semi closed ecosystem like meta but at least they don't specialize in data mining I'm curious to see Sonys new psvr but I'm admittedly getting impatient and can't afford a PC build at these inflated gpu and cpu prices
Absolutely loved your closing remarks. I feel motivated !!!!
Thanks for talking about this Thrill! As a vr indie dev I want to be on the right side of this argument. (The scary thing is I'm Legit scared that even comments like this get seen by Meta and hurt my chances of getting on their platform... )
@BaxiTube That's harsh. Surviving in the industry means making such choices. And with Meta's presence, it's very risky to limit your audience to only outside of them. A boycott won't achieve much with how much they have ingrained themselves as THE option for consumer VR. Ultimately, the best action to do would probably? be to try to offer creations to as many platforms as possible, but that takes time and effort.
@@WhatIsMyPorpoise Thanks for sticking up for us devs
@BaxiTube oof... that cuts deep
@@Sail_VR don’t let it, if you look at literally anyone that has the quest or has even recommended the quest he’s saying the same bullshit to them. It’s clearly a kid that listened for the first five minutes and thinks he’s a hardass.
@@curlyemmm1232 Thanks. It's hard to not let thing get to you ya when you're called out
I bought a second-hand quest 2 and love it that it got me into VR, but besides the exclusives (RE4) and the 2 games I already bought through the store, all my money is going towards steam VR games instead. Wireless airplay is really cool, I wish another company would add this to their headset. I'm also skipping their official accessories, Kiwi has a really good elite replacement.
Next step is to figure out how to root it and sideload fun stuff.
I'll admit, I've had similar thoughts about simply making FB pay the upfront cost of innovating the VR industry and then dropping them like a bad habit. But I don't think Thrill is taking the threat of FB as seriously as he should. It's nice to think that another company will eventually create a headset and an online community that is strong enough to compete with FB, but there's no guarantee that will ever happen. FB are doing and will do everything they can to corner this market and we also can't underestimate peoples' tendencies to always choose what is familiar over what is smart.
In most areas whoever grows first remains the standard. When was the last time any of us used a competitor of RUclips? It takes some severe shooting-themselves-in-the-foot like Digg or Tumblr for that to change. I do agree with Thrill's sentiment for the immediate situation, I do feel that it is okay to recommend Quest 2. But most people that I have helped get into VR have agreed to go for the bigger experience of the Index first, and most that went for the Quest 2 first were eager upgrade from it. The big picture of competition is important, I think the current dilemma won't last long.
Thanks for putting this out. I JUST today received my first VR system in the mail - the Valve Index, and this makes me feel like it was the right decision - albeit, and expensive one. Looking forward to diving deeper into the industry and community.
Im scared... I just want to be able to get into VR for the first time, and yet it seems everything is going downhill... Metaphorically, this train is going downhill faster than I can catch up to it and hop onboard. I hope VR becomes open and cheaper for everyone in the future
literally made a vid talking about this for a bit a week a go, knowing its just me talking into the void.
I'm glad a big creator is bringing this up
The one thing that bothers me about this video is that 99% of the time when someone brings out a video like this, within a year, they either go silent, sell out to the industry or reduce the amount of videos they produce. Please continue to be the 1% cos I really enjoy your content.
I mean he is already saying don't boycott and just support and buy meta because it will totally get better later after they become even more monopolistic. Not sure about that one.
Absolutely agree. This is THE most critical moment in the history of VR in our lifetimes.
There's a reason you keep winning the VR influencer of the year awards, and it's exactly this. Yet again thanks for saying what sorely has been needed to be said
The gaming industry VR has been a failure, overall. And I predicted this many years ago. It just wasn't "Reality" enough. You can't really grab a physical gun and feel it in your hands and start shooting it with real recoil from each shot, you can't feel the walls in your surroundings, you can't physically jump forward and have the effects of the world around you, touching water or other players and feel the cold or the heat of the environment, the effects of an earthquake underneath your feet. You can't feel any of it. So this isn't virtual reality, this is fake vision and sound reality and it is not enough to emerge yourself in the illusion. And from these confusing effects you'll only get a headache and get dizzy from time to time, which isn't fun.
Intelligent RUclipsr, not simply enthusiastic. Got me subscribed.
That intro was trippy. I like how artistic your content is getting.
I’ve been playing VR for years and know all about the weight, honesty I’d rather have a index but that’s just too expensive for me. Still I really hope that there will be better competition and a fair market. So that the vr industry will grow!
Started with a quest just this christmas, found you and now im hearing about more headsets than just the varjo.
I'm glad to hear you would scrutinize Valve the same way if they were the market leaders, but let's be real. Valve would never push VR hardware or software to be more closed. The Valve Index is impressively modular, and the Steam Deck gives you root access by default! Not to mention, Valve is clearly committed to decoupling PC gaming from Windows using Linux, which is open-source.
They are still gatekeepers by having no entry-level affordable tech. You forget everyone isn't a tech nerd. It will fizzle out if they only cater to nerds. A realistic Metaverse isn't built on enthusiasts but, newbies. Grandma effortlessly being immersed in a VR landscape, the medical industry finding applications for it, corporate and freelance affordability. That's how the internet and console gaming boomed the way it did. This gamer elitism needs to die or we will all suffer. Even us tech enthusiast nerds.
@@coreym162
It's not gatekeeping when they literally can't afford to sell it any cheaper. They don't have Facebook's deep pockets.
Gaben does really good stuff, but we should forget that he also wants profit.
he is not jesus.
but it seems like he care a bit more about the consumer and the general market.
Hey Thrill, i want to Thank you for your Content.
I think youre right and love your attitude.
Recently i ordered a quest 2.
I had my doubts about VR and couldnt get the Hype about it.
The Minute i switched it on, i was blown away and fully immersed.
RUclips cannot transport how it feels to play actually VR.
Im so glad youtubers like you exist.
a root for quest2 would be amazing, but i dont think the people capable of it, already jumped on the Train (at least not that much).
an so it will take some time to achieve root access
maybe someday ill do research on my own :D
I think this is why you got the VR Influencer award 2 years in a row, cause you don't hold anything back and give the realistic view. Turning a blind eye to the bad things don't change the fact they are not there, in fact I believe it unwittingly encourages bad practices.
On to the 3rd one... :)
Exactly, he should be encouring real change, not sit iddle to it happening all around us....I mean cmon how can you mean such awards then tell people to go destroy humanity?
Spectacular video. The issue of what to recommend has been something that’s always in the back of my mind when requested. You’ve broken down the issue perfectly. Thank you for creating this.
I’ve been doing research on VR and the Metaverse for a class project I’m in and during my research I came across a very alarming quote from the creator of VR:
“”Jaron Lanier, the computer scientist credited as the father of virtual reality, offers some dark words on the subject. “If you run [the metaverse] on a business model that's similar to the one that Facebook runs on, it'll destroy humanity,” says Lanier, presently a researcher at Microsoft. “I'm not saying that rhetorically. That is a literal and specific prediction that humanity could not survive that.”””
I came across your channel while doing research for this project and I find your views interesting on this subject simply because you believe so much in VR. I have a genuine question and I don’t want to come off as an asshole but, why do you believe so much in VR? Do you really think that this technology could really be used to change the world for the better? What world does that look like?
Not expecting an answer but in general I think these are questions we should really be asking ourselves
This is a survival of the fittest scenario.
VR offers an incredible amount of useful simulations for any subject, far more than games or social applications, as long as these simulations are created and applied in real life. The destruction of society comes in when VR escapism is used to replace reality. What I mean by this is, rather than use it for knowledge, majority may just play games or hang out in social apps, wasting away by accomplishment of nothing.
My take is "use it right and don't fall into the trap", since this technology is coming, won't be stopped, and is highly addictive. As someone who lived before the dawn of VR it's wise to pass this on to future generations, because there's enough unproductive youth currently wasting time on tiktok.. which to me already hits as destruction of the future..
@@smittyvanjagermanjenson182 I dunno, people were saying the exact same things about the internet when it really started to take off.
Also game consoles.
And television.
Definitely don't let it take precedence of your life of course, but worst case scenario is Facebook takes total control of the VR environment and everyone's data gets harvested. There's still plenty of real life to live that plenty of people aren't willing to give up any time soon. The fear of VR taking over people's lives and leading to the downfall of society more stems from the fear of the unknown.
@@PopLadd everyone's data gets harvested no matter who runs this. "A fake world is a lot less painful than the real one", a quote I heard that worries me for the future.. but let's hope for the best.
I'm glad you feel the same way, thank you for your message. I'm waiting for my Lynx-R1 so that I can finally have fun wirelessly without worrying about my data.
I can't see my previous comment so I'm hoping you didn't delete it. But I'll reiterate:
I really love seeing you ideate, it shows your passion. But alas:
A community is only centralized by what it subscribes to. And in this case, VR. Other than that, we are fully decentralized and ready to be taken down by what is otherwise an incredibly powerful company that is reaaally good at polarizing people. They do this shit for fun with fb.
This sense of urgency doesn't really exist. We don't NEED to have VR shipped to the masses yet. We're good the way we are, "wait" is a perfectly acceptable move until we have more considerably sized players that can solidify a free, open market.
Finally, monopolies are a massive threat to any economic and politic system known to man. Even more when the idea of a monopoly comes from the one company that is good at dividing people and our only shot at "having a voice" is staying united, it truly cannot work.
May I propose focusing your content on companies that try to deliver affordable VR?
I totally agree! Well said!
Idon't understand why is it so hard for people to wait, and why we need that VR explodes in the mass market right now. It's totally fine if mass adoption starts in even 10 years from now, especially if that adoption is of open standard that isn't run/owned by greedy and corrupt people.
I myself for example have been truly desiring to get into VR so much, from the very start and I have been almost daily casually watching the development of VR, hoping that I will be able to start experiencing VR for myself. And yet, no matter how excited I get very often, I never lose my resolve that, based on my financial and other circumstances, I simply cannot jump into VR waters very unfortunately, even though I crave for it a lot every single day.
I am still waiting for my first VR headset that is worth my investment and my support, to come to the market. I think the next Valve's headset really might be the one that delivers my dreams and which I will save my money for in order to buy it, unless it ends up disappointing me like all the headsets so far have been, for one reason or another.
If everyone was patient and not so quick to jump ship with anything they can get hands on, without being able to residt their consumer urges, there wouldn't have been such a monopoly like it is now.
@@jameskirk4692 Very fair point with "residing to their consumer urges".
Meta ain't no stranger to our yearning for consumption. That's why they're coming up with an egregious offer: give us ludicrous rights over your privacy and we give you what you crave (consumption) right NOW.
Therefore it creates this sense of urgency which is only conflated in Thrill's eyes since he's a staple of the VR influencer community so naturally people will flock to him for answers.
So Thrill being ready to give in to the rotten proposition from Meta isn't great news. We don't need to hold steady as masses. Instead we need our big voices - such as Thrill - to hold steady for us. When they open the gates and say "go", it has to be a legitimate offer, one made in good faith.
With Meta, there's no such thing.
But I mean the quest 2 is a great headset for the price with alot of content and you can play pcvr witelessly with it most people could give a shit less about what the company itself is into or doing....which is what Facebook is banking on
@@dustinchristian6043 Exactly. The Quest 2 is good value, no doubt about that. We're discussing more on what value YOU bring forward in order to let that piece of plastic capture your attention.
Are you giving away your money to a company and that's the end of the transaction? Great!
But - if you are offering on a platter: your current and future data, privacy right, control over its use (locked to your facebook account) althewhile feeding a company known for guiding its userbase to division and harm for its own profit - then how could you, in good faith, tell yourself that it's still a great transaction?
Imagine this - if Apple came in 2007 and said: we are offering the world an AMAZING device (the iPhone 1) but with it you relinquish your right to privacy and feed us all the information that we need in order to make our clients divide you as a human race. Would the world buy into that device back then?
So why do it today? What's the rush?
@@Boogieeeeeeee I get what you're saying but as we can tell by the ammount of people still using facebook/still buying quests most people just don't care...me personally I have a quest 2 but until valve releases a wireless index I just don't see myself switching not because I can't afford it because I can but because I'm a vr user that prefers wireless stand alone or pcvr (I do both)....just can't deal with the wires personally kinda breaks my immersion...also the ammount of content I get with the quest is just more
I'm sorry thrill, love your content and wish I could meet you some day in VR to chat properly but this sounds pretty naïve. There is very little chance of a wholesale abandonment of facebook's meta after they have secured complete market dominance with an even larger user base. As you correctly state they are already almost there, those problems you state at the beginning of the video wont diminish in the future when they have even more users and more games and more companies dependent on their ecosystem for their existence. It will be the opposite, it will get worse. After all we already have evidence of this: time after time Facebook are called out, loudly and publicly in the press and all over the internet for shady practices, repeated massive data breaches and more and it has seemingly little to no effect on them. Why would this change in the VR space? Look at Apple, their anti consumer, anti competition closed ecosystem has had millions of users for decades. They even have an army of hardcore fans who will defend them seemingly forever all while they themselves are continually getting ripped off by Apples practices. The only solution now is to take those first two options that you dislike; tell people to save up, tell them to wait, tell them to boycott facebook. It's the only chance we have.
It's a hard sell there. With the pricing on the quest compared to proper pcvr, you're telling people to wait for what could be months, years, or just never at all.
We can't see the future, and we can't say for sure that anyone else will bring that accessibility to VR.
Edit: Totally right about Facebook though, they're a monolith, and they don't just fade. Their hooks are in deep.
@@The_Bird_Bird_Harder Yes I know but seeing as there isn't currently a competitor (and probably won't be at that price point unless another big entity decides to also loss lead). But I don't have another solution for how to prevent Facebook controlling the industry. It sucks, but I don't see any other way for the moment.
Telling someone to save up $1k for a decent gaming PC and another $700 for a VR, instead of buying $300 device. XD good luck with that.
@@arturo0727 even more now with the GPU shortage. Don't think you can get a decent vr card for much under a grand.
I’m so happy to see you using wide text. I’m a graphic designer and that kind of text is very modern and will still be modern in 2022
More constructive but I still think you need to concentrate on advocating for more cooperation between the players other than FB. If VRChat, RecRoom and NeosVR devised an open-standard for portals that opened in each other's application they'd instantly have a much stronger Metaverse offering than FB will have for years yet.
I've heard buisiness executives at my job talking about metaverse and vr and it felt like someone found some cursed artefact
Getting a used vive is also a great option, with a upgrade path to the index if they like it, I've seen a vive headset for a 100$
@Game Over So far I've owned a vive and a index, only broke one index cable over the 5 years I've owned them, could be because I've got a polley system tho
@Game Over Yeah, would be good to test before buying
Corporations were never meant to only cater to their shareholders. They are meant to care about stakeholders, which means more than just stocks. It means the communities they operate in and their employees are huge components of their over all worth and corresponding potential. Unfettered greed took over a long ass time ago and the best we can do is try to mitigate where we are able. I love VR and hope it can work through growing pains as an industry to provide consumers with some really great experiences.
REJECT META
I really love your content. You are so helpful and knowledgeable😃I appreciate your honesty, I have many of the same thoughts. People like you really add value to they industry 🥂 also also we bought our first vr headset today 🎉🎊😍Oc2 ! Excited to tap in! Thank you🙏🏽 oh we love you too lol 💕
I just started watching your videos wanting more info on VR. I've never owned a VR unit as it always seems something that was wayyy too expensive to only be upgraded to a newer better model before you could pay off the bill on the first one you just bought. I don't know if I'll pull the trigger soon, but seems things are somewhat getting more streamline. Like you said though, the market is monopolized by a couple so until there is a lot more choices that are just as good as the others I'll probably still sit on the sidelines and watch the progression. Your videos are very informative and I appreciate your work.
I've spend more than a year in vr and I totally agree with you!
I appreciate that you have identified this issue. However, this is a problem across the entire economy. The barrier to entry is way too high for most business to jump into VR. Meta has the billions to burn and sell their products at a loss and that will guaranty they will dominate the market. conversely, because Meta is willing to have such a financial loss it will move the industry forward faster than it otherwise would have. I don't know the perfect answer but I am frustrated that this seems to be the business model for so many large corporations. Feels anti-consumer, maybe not at first because of the cheaper hardware, but once they have established a monopoly then they can jack up the prices and the consumer no longer have any other options.
Welcome to modern day unchecked capitalism where only monopolies can survive and cooperate with governing bodies to push control over masses thus guaranteeing power for both.
@@mrsearaphim4077 Quite well explained tbh...
I mean gotta give it to them it's a brilliant business plan
I really hope someone will be able to root the quest 2 soon ☺
Wow.
My grandson got a Quest 2 for Christmas, and I had so much fun with it, I started exploring the VR purchase options and found them sadly thin -- discouraging, especially coupled with That Detestable Facebook Affiliation (tm). Then I stumbled across your outstanding commentary. My appreciation. Your post was simply amazing for someone who came in search of some enlightenment, found comprehensive (and comprehensible) honesty, logic and reason, and was able to finally come to a somewhat comfortable decision. Many thanks. This was extremely well done. I'm going to get an Oculus, but I'm not going to marry one (unless someone roots it!)
Meta/oculus will be the death of VR sadly. Notice how games like resident evil 4 and other exclusive only to oculus. This kind of practice is exactly what will leave to the death of VR
Yeah. More people needs to know about that.
First things first, stop calling them Meta and start call them what they are, Facebook.
I take issue with your attitude- you can't have the moral high ground and say "let's manipulate and use facebook"... you can't do the same thing that you're criticizing Facebook for and be the hero, you'll just be the next villain.
You're absolutely right that a vr monopoly is a scary thought, especially from a company that has shown so much disdain for personal privacy. I appreciate you using your voice to try to do good for the vr community. Thank you!
Just be careful not become the villain.
検閲大好きファッカーバーグなんか信用せんけどな
idk, i feel like being a villain to a villain doesn't really make you much of a villain yourself right?
Thank you for making this !!! It’s so frustrating to go to VR conferences and they completely ignore this massive ethical dilemma.
Totally agree (100%) , but as I said earlier, I'd suggest pointing out what meta/facebook does every time you review any of their product, to be doing the right thing after mentioning your honest opinion on the product, you should also mention the truth behind the company's name and the facts that backs it up, that meta is core is a data selling company, they have done it before, and got away with it, so they would do it again and be way more careful this time.
otherwise, you'd be helping the buggy man and his plans.
Do you think if there is a new unknown rival for PC VR right now, would the community support it financially even if the product itself is missing some essential upgrades of there is room for improvement (like being released in alpha or beta to get some financial support )?
Thrills steps to make VR better
Step 1: Root the quest 2
Step 2: Ride Oculus's ("Meta's") tail coat Only until VR Becomes Mainstream and there is actual competition for cheaper hardware
Step 3: Boycott Oculus all together
Step 4: Have everyone use there own voices to tell other VR company's what they can do to make VR Better
This is just a quick and dirty run down its far better explained in the video, The plan is going to require alot of voices so if anyone is hesitant to get into VR I encourage them to try it now, we need to grow and expand our community in order for companies to listen to us show them that they cant make all the choices and put restrictions on what we can and cant do in the VR world, I dub this the Open VR revolution we will take control, the first step, Is rooting the quest
I've been thinking about this a lot and you are right to make this video. However I honestly believe most of your concerns are / will be unfounded. Meta should be praised for giving oxygen to VR when some would say it's gasping for air. Honestly Meta is VR's greatest chance right now but the investment AMD, Intel, Microsoft and Nvidia are putting in off the back of what Meta are doing is staggering. If anything Meta's drive has given a wakeup call to the industry giants and in the next 10 years you'll see a much more diverse VR industry as a result, where all sorts of companies will have there say. It's really is too early to judge Meta and history tells us Meta position is very vulnerable and the true dominant players will emerge from a sea change of future discoveries, platforms and technologies.
Thanks so much for this VIDEO, I COMPLETELY AGREE... BTW Rooting the Quest is a Solid GREAT Idea... YOUR DEFINITELY A SMART PERSON... WOW... Me and my peoples appreciate you.
Crazy how Thrill's the only VR content creator brave enough to speak out against Facebook.
@BaxiTube yeah, but still, openly acknowledging that they're a hostile entitity is more than anyone else is willing to do. Everyone else is just silent.
the day the term metaverse dropped shit has felt pretty damn disturbing
Great video man, I’m new to VR, I’m a child of the 80’s and VR was always a pipe dream and any VR tech was always a giant disappointment.. ( e.g. Nintendo’s Virtual Boy ) not even that long ago when the Lenovo Star Wars headset came out, same let down. So when I got a quest 2 purely by chance as the result of a trade, I was expecting the same thing and fully intended on selling it but figured I’d try it out first for the hell of it.. I was blown away.. it was like what I’d seen on sci-fi shows and imagined as a kid.. and now I play the thing everyday… haven’t even turned on my Xbox since I got it… I don’t give two shits about Meta, I’m just glad the tech is moving forward… anyone talking about boycotting the quest 2 or any meta vr tech for that matter because they don’t like the shitty way they do business is like wanting the plane your flying in to crash because you don’t like the pilot… it’s pretty asinine and short sided…
I bought a Quest 2 in April. It's my 3rd headset, having started with a DK2 and then a CV1. I think it's a great piece of hardware for the money, and I always recommend it to anyone who wants to get into VR. Not because it's the 'best' headset on the market, or even the cheapest (Google Cardboard is still a viable starter option if you already have the phone), but what it is, is "good enough". You can spend crazy money on VR, but eventually you have to decide what is "good enough". The Quest 2 is that headset.
I don't pretend to understand everything about what 'Meta' is, or where they're going with it, and to be honest, I'm not sure I need to. There have been two issues holding back VR over the past 8 years or so - firstly the cost of entry, and secondly the lack of software. Quest 2 is basically solving these dilemmas. It would be incredibly churlish and silly to be sniffy about that. Sure, the Index and the Reverb G2 etc might be better headsets, but the quality difference just doesn't justify the price difference.
I'm also a developer, and I can see the huge potential that is there for a single marketplace and a dominant affordable headset. So long as the API remains open, and works across all headsets & is not locked down, there is no downside that I can see.
But the API is not open, the quest store is very exclusive and only works on meta devices.
The only way this benefits you as a developer is if you have no morals and care only about short term monetary gain (or maybe long term if they keep a chokehold on mainstream VR).
Meta will do its very best to lock people (consumers and developers) into their platform, as they always have done
Meta doesn't give a shit about innovation, it's purely the means to an end (the end being full control of VR or at least mainstream VR). They've realized Facebook doesn't have a great future so they're looking for something new to monopolise.
@@hrmny_ I can use OpenXR to target the Quest 2 (along with any other VR headset). I promise you that is very open. Your concerns here are unfounded & based on inaccurate assumptions. Have a nice day.
This video is so good. I agree. Hope you do well in the future!
Videos like this are why I subscribe to you. Thank you for being an objective voice in VR.
videos like these are why I unsubscribed, we sold all our Quests from the channel, we are the only channel without a facebook headset anymore and that keeps telling people to stay away from their hardware because of the atrocities and governments suing them for all the wrong they do in the world.
I'm definitely in opposition here to recommending someone compromise to get into vr by going with a quest.
The claim that people "don't know about all the baggage and potential issues" just feels too optimistic even for me. People know what facebook is and has done over the years, it's becoming fairly well known about oculus's being owned by facebook even on the mainstream scale, and i'd like to be equally optimistic that maybe people are becoming just a little, just SLIGHTLY more wary of giving away so much acceptance and trust like they have up till now to these big companies that ABSOLUTELY do not care about you, and only care about your money, and your data.
Which all comes around to, again, fuck the quests, be patient, get a system you can do more with and have more fun with outside of just vr (ie, a powerful computer when hardware is more available), and wait to afford the far more functional and less restrictive system
What do you mean by less restricted system?
Hmm... I have recently purchased a Quest 2 to get into the VR "trend" and to try out some games with family. Is it recommended I return the headset and wait for 1+ years, or just purchase it now?
@@nidoruzi Idk I have a quest 2 in my opinion it's good enough until someone else comes out with a standalone/wireless headset
@@dustinchristian6043 that is a really good way to put it, i guess i'll keep it! the retailer i purchased it from lets me return it till january anyway. thanks for your input, it helped a lot!
@@nidoruzi i'll try to summarize my thoughts here as best i can, but i do tend to ramble, so, sorry ^^;;.
Basically, i'd say, if someone is already in the facebook umbrella, so to speak, i can't really fault them for going with the quest, despite as much bias as i do admit to having about the company and headset.
If someone isn't in that umbrella, my kneejerk reaction, yes, is to say wait, save, and get a better setup. Really i'd say it also comes down to future upgrade likelihood too. Sometimes buying cheap means having spent more overall before your happy, without even worrying at all about the facebook side. I knew someone who wanted to get in cheap, but not with a quest, so they got a cosmos. But the upgrade route for that is super expensive, more total for them than if they had originally just bought an index. *shrugs*
So i'd say do some research and see what works best for you. I'm sorry i can't offer more than anecdotes. Little tired right now ^^;; but i hope it helps some
Thank you for being intelligent and spreading the word about one of the only ways to beat monopolization and return to shareholders...
Tetherless headsets are (as of current) the future of VR, at least in UKs military companies. We've been looking at vr for a few years, but the quest 2 really opened up a lot of avenues being a standalone and easy to setup. Just have to keep in mind its got the strength of a modern phone for making training sims/games
It takes a brilliant developer to optimize coding in a simulator that can run on a phone processor.
I am very excited about trying to getting in to VR, but I am not keen on the dependency of a Facebook profile to use the Quest 2. However looking at other options is off-putting when you look at the cost of the VR setup being 3 to 5 times more expensive, which is a lot of money to drop just to get entry in to something that I may or may not enjoy. So I am going to bite the bullet and get a quest and save some money to upgrade my PC and get a better headset (if I decide that it is worth it for me to do so)
I dont see why Meta running the VR platform in the world as a huge problem. We basically accept Apple and Google's monopoly in the app-store today, and Meta is just an extension of that same reality (no pun intended) to VR. Actually, the problem is not Meta, its the technologies themselves, that are in such a nascent stage that they need a trillion dollar company to invest in them and thus eventually build a moat around it (technology -> platform -> $$$).
The only issue I see here is Meta doing it much faster (< 5years) than Apple of Google, both of which took over a decade to achieve the kind of market dominance they wield now. The only option now is to make an alternative open-source based platform (probably using linux), but thats exactly what Google did in the face of competition from Apple. So I guess it doesn't matter much in the long run.
You inspired me to get a vr headset and before I was hesitant, but it was a really good decision that I have you to thank
I think the concerns are way overblown. Things seem mostly ok to me.
The mobile phone duopoly kinda sucks too, but we live with it...
I agree completely with you
There's definitely going to be competition at the $300 price-point...or cheaper. The part that is hard to overcome is the software support. The sooner another company can break into that price point, the easier it will be to get that support... assuming meta doesn't buy up all VR developers.
The other thing I don't like about the quest, is that it takes away innovation from PC VR games. Or rather has the potential to, also it's where money can be made for developers. I'm already seeing more and more games being made for the quest, as standalone experiences. And while I understand not everyone has a powerful gaming PC, and I understand people being able to play resident evil 4 natively on the headset is great. But the headset will never be able to perform to the same degree as a gaming computer, which will limit the types of games made, like Half life Alyx probably one the greatest games in terms of polish, design and attention to detail. I do not want cartoony graphics forever in VR, and some day I hope to have Sword art online. But unless they innovate chips to be be able to run to the same level as a gaming pc, sword art online will not be possible, without serious oomph from computer hardware.
Well as far as the question about what VR headset someone should get the very first question you should be asking is if they have a PC or not that way you can understand if it is sensible to suggest something like a valve index. That's what you say...
HOLY FUCK WERE GETTING A VR REVOLUTION
"Right now there's like one and a half ship..." that pretty much sums up the state of vr.
Love everything about the vid! The content is great and the vids playing in the background are superb! Love your stuff man!
I would take the Oculus Rift CV1 over the Quest 2 every time. I own both and the Quest 2 only has three advantages, standalone/exclusive games, small setup time and resolution.
The rift is lighter, vastly more comfortable, lower latency (even Vs native quest 2 games) and due to its lower resolution you can use a midrange machine from 2014 and still play almost any VR title with it
This is seriously insightful, logical and brilliant. thank you!
Per usual, really solid content thrill! Always very self aware and very methodical
I literally only want to play h3vr. But my only option really is the index where I am. I am already super paranoid about my data and take extreme measures that already make things harder for me just to protect it. The quest is not even an option. But it's also crazy to get top of the line hardware for one game.
I really hope that some day with enough developers working on VR that VR support comes to Linux. Like you said, open source platforms are good. Valve has recognized this with the steam deck, and with open source technology, you invite more talent to improve it.
The good about the state of vr regarding Meta is that it proves Vr is a viable solution but most likely in standalone option . I would'n be surprise if we see a company like Sony or Microsoft launching standalone headset . When there is a new market , big companies take a piece of the cake and it make the market grow and it's good for consumer over time .
i was here before the quest 2 came out. With the rift S of the table and my headset dying, my only other option is the reverb G2 v2. Sad to see the repairability for the Rift s is now dead.
This is my day one like day one one I just thought about getting into the VR tech/gaming industry because of the possibilities and 😭😭 it sounds like I just walked into a war lol I’m gonna watch your videos and get updated but it’s been some months since this video came out and if you or anyone has some idea on what headset to purchase to get started that would be great I’m really excited on the possibilities as well in the virtual realm and despite being 20 I feel like an old man not knowing twitch or discord stuff 😂😂😂 I totally get the idea and really just excited to hopefully be a member of what seems a crazy unique community while it’s young
Yeah I was hoping that someone else was going to release a Quest 2 direct competitor but unfortunately nobody did. I just bought the Quest 2 last month & I only use it for PC VR. My first VR Headset was the Samsung Odyssey Plus Mixed Reality Headset I still use it but I was looking for a company to make a $300 to $500 headset that matched the Quest 2 as far as functionality but maybe offering something a little extra. Not having to deal with Facebook or (META) would have been more than enough at these price points for me. I totally agree with you about the Metaverse, if we learned anything from Ready Player One it's that a corporate money driven Metaverse is no good.
My co-worker wanted a VR for his son, so I recommend oculus quest. So he just brought one on black Friday for his son.