Yeah it’s kinda an emergency 🚨 pull in. Hand over hand can be very fast as well (provided you don’t miss). Actually I should put that to the test and race myself 😂
Took a moment, but to clarify, this only works when the leader drops that extra loop of slack, not before. Normal taking up slack after a clip, for example, as the climber moves up, is easy and slow. When the dropped loop is falling with the leader, there is very little drag, as the entire rope is starting to fall and the bulk of it is coming down the route line. This short, half second interval(close enough) is all you have to work with, but once that loop has been pulled up, you can step on the rope ahead of an anticipated fall, without adding to the risk. If he makes the clip, you take a breath and belay normally. If he blows it, your only action is to do the slack lift as demonstrated, foot already holding the lower rope.
I don't think you should do this with a tube though. My guess is, if your rope hand is still up there while the rope engages to the fall, in that moment the rope will go right back through the tube, because the rope hand is not under the device line. With the usual method the rope hand goes above the device for a split second; with the demonstrated method it stays above the device line for quite some time, creating a larger time window where the tube doesn't brake, possibly even sucking your hand into the device.
the physics involved are sound, but the timing required to get it right, plus the risk involved when getting it wrong (rope slipping in brake hand, especially with unassisted braking devices like a tuber) means i would do it only if the leader warned me of the incoming fall (ex. got stuck during move) when i had clear line of sight with them and a decking/ledge hit was certain... in a situation like you describe, where clipping is sketchy because of slack, i tell my climbing partners to just grab the quickdraw and milk it... because we are not professional athletes and no flash/redpoint/whatever is worth an avoidable injury
This was my thought, too. In most cases, the risks of letting go of the brake line and pulling the line in a bad direction relative to your brake hand outweigh the benefits.
If I hadn’t just taken a swift water course and seen a 3-1 system built, this wouldn’t have made a ton of sense but you did a good job demonstrating it. I’m excited to give it a try.
Does it require more force to pull on the break line? Trying to imagine. Plus can you pull yourself off your feet? Which I guess in my case would be 4' anyway providing you don't let go.
Absolutely, hence the glove and it being an advanced technique. Def will take some practice to master but seems like a good one to have in the repertoire
@@plasmasquid my point was not about the burning potential, but about the muscle power required into some awkward direction. Maybe I should have clarified that in my original post.
Sweet, leather glove might work even better too, move your left hand to the brake position after pulling in the slack. Gonna practice this on the ground, thanks this is awesome.
The plus is you can take in a lot of slack very quickly - if it works, it’s great. The huge minus is that you have to let go of your grip on the brake line at the worst possible moment to do that, when your climber is likely to take a big fall. Not to mention that if your hand gets a bit caught up while you’re doing the 2:1 thing (like it did in the video), it seems like it would be easy to rip the rope out of your own hand since you’re basically pulling the rope against your thumb - now you’ve got to really hope your foot is on that rope solidly. If your climber is so close to the ground that you’d need to take in slack this quickly for them not to deck, use a clip stick. If they’re far above the ground, saving a few feet of fall isn’t a big enough benefit to let go of the brake side of the rope. Take it with a grain of salt as I’ve never lead climbed or belayed anyone, and have only had two people belay me. Things like this are the reason I don’t let anyone belay me. Autobelay all day for me - tried, true, and tested, and only dependent on physics.
When you pull out a rope, you don’t really want to make your braking strand parallel to the rope going from the belay device to a leader. It makes this technique quite complicated to execute properly and master. As if you want to pull 2 times more rope - rope between your leg and hand and the rope between hand and belay device has to be in parallel. So even if it’s more effective, there are more chances to mess it up. Nevertheless the idea is cool
So I have to find a glove and put it on first ;-) But seriously, you would need to know where the rope on the ground is, the ground would have to be flat enough to step onto the rope and you can see the belayer missing the clip. If you don't manage to block the rope between your shoe and the ground, you would end up with the brake hand lose on the rope, the grigri unweighted and not in blocking mode, you pulled in less than 4 ft and your hand is all the way up high. It takes extra time to pull in more rope in case the climber falls a second later. Not sure I would make that correct call in time. More likely I would see there is a problem and I step back or sit/kneel down to the ground while pulling in to take more than 4ft slack out of the system.
Great explanation but i don't think that would work unless you A, have a perfect view of your lead climber and B you consciously prepare for that potential fall. Thus as someone eles mentioned you dont have a fixed hand on the dead rope. Great Idea in theory but not entirely sure it would work well. Plus the additional weight on the rope pulling up. Thank you for sharing.
Josh, you're applying basic principles of physics into real life in a very useful way here, therefore I declare you an engineer! Cause that's what we do all day... ;-)
Sounds really advanced and situational. I can see doing this if I know that a sketchy clip is coming, but I feel like my reaction time would be too slow to react like this in an emergency situation. In most cases taking in slack should be good enough though. If the climber is on a solid clipping jug and falls anyway while clipping they would be in trouble though. At least on the second and third bolt in routes that have a rather classical approach to bolting. I don't think the taking in fast approacb would solve that though. Most routes here are bolted so that you have a solid clipping position and can then clip over your head. Falling in that situation is a no no.
Thanks for the video and great explanation! Would you consider a video on the Edlrid Ohm? Specifically, having trouble understanding how to soft catch using it. Even if there is slack between the belayer and ohm when a climber falls, it seems like it can't overcome the friction created by the ohm. Leading to a pretty hard catch. Also noticing that it is more difficult for the leader to pull up rope, even when slack exists between belayer and ohm. I'm sure some of that is normal, but it would be helpful to better understand the device. Most videos I can find just show it's intended affect. Can't find anything showing belay technique.
I'm a lighter guy, so I'm on the belay end when an ohm is in use, but both climbers I've used one with have reported no extra rope drag. Try standing closer to the wall, maybe step forward when feeding slack so the rope goes straight up through it. I doubt there's much you can do for a softer catch though. If the catches are always too hard, maybe you don't need to be using one.
If only there was a way to do that without stepping on the rope.. I mean, in real world, you would have to step on the rope each time climber move a little and you feed rope etc. That is a lot of stepping on poor rope, but more than that, you constantly have to look away from climber to look down where to step on a rope :D. That is more dangerous in my opinion than giving full attention to climber and risking extra 4 feet fall (of course depends on situation). Nice idea but only to use when you know something risky is coming like long clip above ledge. Other than that, choose longer safe fall in my opinion :)
I like the physics behind that one. A disadvantage of this method, in my opinion, is that there is no firm grip on the dead end of the rope during retrieval (the rope slowly slips through the hand). If a fall occurs at this moment, which is not unlikely, then depending on the belay device things could go badly.
That’s half right, the rope does slide through the hand, however it also does for tunneling methods as well. And oh boy have I seen ppl drop the rope doing that. lol with this the hand never leaves the rope and you can grip back down. It also encourages the use of a rope glove which I like. I think the biggest problem is actually having the right sized rope and belay device. If the rope is to stiff and fat I don’t think your going to have an easy time getting your slack back.
@@BetaClimbers Yes I agree. I think with a grigri the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. With a standard tuber, I would prefer to keep the breaking hand low and maybe jump back/down.
wow thats an awesome trick I've never thought of doing !it makes perfect sense and your explanation is top notch one thing I've always wondered is how to pull in more slack if my climber misses the clip
For all those new to rope mechanics -> 1:59 isn't completely true statement. The statement holds true as long as the ropes are parallel in the same direction. The more angle there is between the ropes the higher the overall force gets. It follows an equation where: forceInRope = forceFromLoad/(2*cos(angle)).For 0° to 60° its really 50% load in single rope strand, for 90° degrees between the ropes the load per rope is 70%, for 120° its 100%, for 180° its infinity. In reality make sure that Josh1 and Josh2 (or your anchor points) are reasonably close to each other or the rope/anchor system is long enough towards the load. All that i like the technique very much - thx for sharing it Joshua ✌
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I had to watch it three times to really understand what was happening. I really like the idea of it and will add to my back pocket for practicing.
Yeah it’s kinda an emergency 🚨 pull in. Hand over hand can be very fast as well (provided you don’t miss). Actually I should put that to the test and race myself 😂
Took a moment, but to clarify, this only works when the leader drops that extra loop of slack, not before. Normal taking up slack after a clip, for example, as the climber moves up, is easy and slow. When the dropped loop is falling with the leader, there is very little drag, as the entire rope is starting to fall and the bulk of it is coming down the route line. This short, half second interval(close enough) is all you have to work with, but once that loop has been pulled up, you can step on the rope ahead of an anticipated fall, without adding to the risk. If he makes the clip, you take a breath and belay normally. If he blows it, your only action is to do the slack lift as demonstrated, foot already holding the lower rope.
I don't think you should do this with a tube though. My guess is, if your rope hand is still up there while the rope engages to the fall, in that moment the rope will go right back through the tube, because the rope hand is not under the device line. With the usual method the rope hand goes above the device for a split second; with the demonstrated method it stays above the device line for quite some time, creating a larger time window where the tube doesn't brake, possibly even sucking your hand into the device.
You tricked me into thinking you weren't going to climb out!
the physics involved are sound, but the timing required to get it right, plus the risk involved when getting it wrong (rope slipping in brake hand, especially with unassisted braking devices like a tuber) means i would do it only if the leader warned me of the incoming fall (ex. got stuck during move) when i had clear line of sight with them and a decking/ledge hit was certain... in a situation like you describe, where clipping is sketchy because of slack, i tell my climbing partners to just grab the quickdraw and milk it... because we are not professional athletes and no flash/redpoint/whatever is worth an avoidable injury
Love it, but fractions of a second to bail on it
This was my thought, too. In most cases, the risks of letting go of the brake line and pulling the line in a bad direction relative to your brake hand outweigh the benefits.
That's why I belay barefoot so I can grab the rope between my toes to do this if I'm in aan overhanging multipitch with no ledges
🤣🤣🤣
If I hadn’t just taken a swift water course and seen a 3-1 system built, this wouldn’t have made a ton of sense but you did a good job demonstrating it. I’m excited to give it a try.
Does it require more force to pull on the break line? Trying to imagine. Plus can you pull yourself off your feet? Which I guess in my case would be 4' anyway providing you don't let go.
Thanks for sharing this. Great trick
Finally a new video! Yeah! 👍
I will have to try this. But my guess is that friction will kick in hard on the brake hand.
My guess as well
Absolutely, hence the glove and it being an advanced technique. Def will take some practice to master but seems like a good one to have in the repertoire
@@plasmasquid my point was not about the burning potential, but about the muscle power required into some awkward direction. Maybe I should have clarified that in my original post.
Also just a good idea to not try to clip super high like that
In general yes, but it's actually safer when dealing with ledges sometimes.
Sometimes it's the only halfway decent place to stand and clip... And sometimes you're just afraid to go on and want to do that clip before. ;-)
Sweet, leather glove might work even better too, move your left hand to the brake position after pulling in the slack. Gonna practice this on the ground, thanks this is awesome.
The plus is you can take in a lot of slack very quickly - if it works, it’s great.
The huge minus is that you have to let go of your grip on the brake line at the worst possible moment to do that, when your climber is likely to take a big fall. Not to mention that if your hand gets a bit caught up while you’re doing the 2:1 thing (like it did in the video), it seems like it would be easy to rip the rope out of your own hand since you’re basically pulling the rope against your thumb - now you’ve got to really hope your foot is on that rope solidly.
If your climber is so close to the ground that you’d need to take in slack this quickly for them not to deck, use a clip stick. If they’re far above the ground, saving a few feet of fall isn’t a big enough benefit to let go of the brake side of the rope.
Take it with a grain of salt as I’ve never lead climbed or belayed anyone, and have only had two people belay me. Things like this are the reason I don’t let anyone belay me. Autobelay all day for me - tried, true, and tested, and only dependent on physics.
Where does he let go of the break line in the demo?
I think the whole point was not letting go of the break line. Maybe watch again.
When you pull out a rope, you don’t really want to make your braking strand parallel to the rope going from the belay device to a leader. It makes this technique quite complicated to execute properly and master. As if you want to pull 2 times more rope - rope between your leg and hand and the rope between hand and belay device has to be in parallel. So even if it’s more effective, there are more chances to mess it up. Nevertheless the idea is cool
Yepp you would need to go from parallel to down quickly as with any belay. A grigri would be more forgiving of a mistake but your absolutely right.
So I have to find a glove and put it on first ;-) But seriously, you would need to know where the rope on the ground is, the ground would have to be flat enough to step onto the rope and you can see the belayer missing the clip. If you don't manage to block the rope between your shoe and the ground, you would end up with the brake hand lose on the rope, the grigri unweighted and not in blocking mode, you pulled in less than 4 ft and your hand is all the way up high. It takes extra time to pull in more rope in case the climber falls a second later. Not sure I would make that correct call in time. More likely I would see there is a problem and I step back or sit/kneel down to the ground while pulling in to take more than 4ft slack out of the system.
Great explanation but i don't think that would work unless you A, have a perfect view of your lead climber and B you consciously prepare for that potential fall. Thus as someone eles mentioned you dont have a fixed hand on the dead rope.
Great Idea in theory but not entirely sure it would work well. Plus the additional weight on the rope pulling up.
Thank you for sharing.
Josh, you're applying basic principles of physics into real life in a very useful way here, therefore I declare you an engineer!
Cause that's what we do all day... ;-)
🤣🤣🤣
Sounds really advanced and situational. I can see doing this if I know that a sketchy clip is coming, but I feel like my reaction time would be too slow to react like this in an emergency situation. In most cases taking in slack should be good enough though.
If the climber is on a solid clipping jug and falls anyway while clipping they would be in trouble though. At least on the second and third bolt in routes that have a rather classical approach to bolting. I don't think the taking in fast approacb would solve that though. Most routes here are bolted so that you have a solid clipping position and can then clip over your head. Falling in that situation is a no no.
Thanks for the video and great explanation!
Would you consider a video on the Edlrid Ohm? Specifically, having trouble understanding how to soft catch using it. Even if there is slack between the belayer and ohm when a climber falls, it seems like it can't overcome the friction created by the ohm. Leading to a pretty hard catch.
Also noticing that it is more difficult for the leader to pull up rope, even when slack exists between belayer and ohm. I'm sure some of that is normal, but it would be helpful to better understand the device.
Most videos I can find just show it's intended affect. Can't find anything showing belay technique.
I'm a lighter guy, so I'm on the belay end when an ohm is in use, but both climbers I've used one with have reported no extra rope drag. Try standing closer to the wall, maybe step forward when feeding slack so the rope goes straight up through it. I doubt there's much you can do for a softer catch though. If the catches are always too hard, maybe you don't need to be using one.
Thanks for the tips. I'll try some of this out with my belayer. We are still practicing with it indoors only until we fully understand its use.
Great tip. Thanks!
How would you compare this to just „running“ back two steps? I like the idea, but it makes belaying more static, as you cannot move your foot.
Sounds like a good video idea
Awesome!
Cool trick, but might be hard to get right when time is of essence
Took me a minute, but you’re right (not surprisingly)
@BetaClimbers great video! Glad you're uploaded again 😄. Doesn't look like you're all that "underground" any more though....🤣 sponsored by BD 😮💨
Dude!!! Yes yes yes!!!
If only there was a way to do that without stepping on the rope.. I mean, in real world, you would have to step on the rope each time climber move a little and you feed rope etc. That is a lot of stepping on poor rope, but more than that, you constantly have to look away from climber to look down where to step on a rope :D. That is more dangerous in my opinion than giving full attention to climber and risking extra 4 feet fall (of course depends on situation). Nice idea but only to use when you know something risky is coming like long clip above ledge. Other than that, choose longer safe fall in my opinion :)
I like the physics behind that one.
A disadvantage of this method, in my opinion, is that there is no firm grip on the dead end of the rope during retrieval (the rope slowly slips through the hand). If a fall occurs at this moment, which is not unlikely, then depending on the belay device things could go badly.
That’s half right, the rope does slide through the hand, however it also does for tunneling methods as well. And oh boy have I seen ppl drop the rope doing that. lol with this the hand never leaves the rope and you can grip back down. It also encourages the use of a rope glove which I like. I think the biggest problem is actually having the right sized rope and belay device. If the rope is to stiff and fat I don’t think your going to have an easy time getting your slack back.
@@BetaClimbers Yes I agree. I think with a grigri the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. With a standard tuber, I would prefer to keep the breaking hand low and maybe jump back/down.
wow thats an awesome trick I've never thought of doing !it makes perfect sense and your explanation is top notch
one thing I've always wondered is how to pull in more slack if my climber misses the clip
imo the fastest is hand over hand
@@jacobkantor3886the fastest is jumping off the cliff..
Looks good but you are missing the one crucial rule (at least around where i am):
Never step on the rope!
😉
Did not understand
For all those new to rope mechanics -> 1:59 isn't completely true statement.
The statement holds true as long as the ropes are parallel in the same direction. The more angle there is between the ropes the higher the overall force gets. It follows an equation where: forceInRope = forceFromLoad/(2*cos(angle)).For 0° to 60° its really 50% load in single rope strand, for 90° degrees between the ropes the load per rope is 70%, for 120° its 100%, for 180° its infinity. In reality make sure that Josh1 and Josh2 (or your anchor points) are reasonably close to each other or the rope/anchor system is long enough towards the load.
All that i like the technique very much - thx for sharing it Joshua ✌
Thanks for the clarification 🤙🏻
@@BetaClimbers 😍♥️
Couldnt watch whole thing my brain stopped listening sorry
Oh NO he’s got TIK TOK BRAIN! 😨 😂
Honestly its the lack of script and stutters. Never watched a tiktok so dont know what that means.
@@schneblymagee400 just teasing you 😂 a lot of content has moved to short for so attention span had gone down. 📉