Commodore VIC 20 (VC 20) Future Proofing
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- Опубликовано: 15 авг 2017
- I'm showing some measures I have taken to make the VIC 20 (hopefully) survive longer. Replacing the electrolytic capacitors and heatsinking some of the chips.
It is also a good idea (and I forgot to mention it) to use a replacement power supply. I'm currently using the one I made for my C64. You can see the video here: • Building a DIY C64 Pow...
Shortly after shooting this video, the little bridge rectifier in my VC 20 died (was overheating and drawing too much current when warm). I replaced it for a beefier one. It is probably a good idea to do this before it fails as preventive maintenance, too.
Make sure to check out the "addendum" video where I show some more things you better do: • VIC 20 Future Proofing...
Here's a list of the capacitors (and other parts) in the VIC 20: console5.com/wiki/Commodore_V...
I'm using these heatsinks. They seem to be good value for money (eBay Germany link): www.ebay.de/itm/8-Stück-VGA-RA...
You can get a very decent SD2IEC from www.tfw8b.com.
If you find this video helpful and/or entertaining please like, share, subscribe and/or consider a donation!
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Great to see Jan Beta give the VIC-20 (err, VC-20) some love! Its in nice condition as well; perfect for a "future proofing"!
Thanks. :) Hope it helps some of these glorious machines survive longer.
Nobody on RUclips can match Jan's accuracy for pointing at the top right corner for an info card. Never out of frame. Never too high, never too low. Thats some high quality pointing right there ;-)
Haha. My secret superpower. ;o)
Much appreciated Jan ! I just got my vic 20 so watching your videos is essential for me.
I'm glad your taking good care of that computer. You know whats sad I saw a lot of these simply tossed away when the C64's arrived at school as a child.
Yeah, it's a shame how many of the old computers got tossed out. My main machine C64 is one found in the trash by a friend (had a black screen due to faulty PLA when I got it otherwise near mint).
I was thinking about this the other night - Commodore really screwed in the memory aspect of these. I recall the 3k problem being rather limiting and making them almost useless (for productivity at least) - at the time. I think if they shipped with 12-16k it would have been a more successful machine. It didn't help that the C64 came out soon afterwards that fixed all these issues.
Yes, the small amount of RAM definitely was a big issue. You can't do much without an expansion at all. I believe it still was the most successful home computer for a short period of time (before the C64 obviously).
Never had Gridrunner but did have Matrix.
Once spent over 4 hours on a single game of Jelly Monsters ;)
I sold it to get a C64... and it appears I'll be in possession of a C64C in a few weeks so been following a lot of yours and Perifractic's videos in preparation for a full refurb!
Oh wow, I had the VC-20 in the 80s. Good, good memories :)
It is a lovely machine indeed! :)
The VIC 20 was my first computer. Nice to see one again. When I got it I was jealous that my friends all had ZX Spectrums and better games. The cartridge games were good but expensive. Thanks for sharing best regards AllTheGearNoIdea.
Yeah, the VIC20 was very limited by its memory. Even the lower range Speccys had 16K and could have better games for that reason.
I still have my VIC 20(I'm UK) I heard of the VC 20 it's nice to see one in real ..thanks for the video mate
Thanks. :) It's a lovely machine.
Great video Jan. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Dean! :)
Good vid there jan. Keep up the good work.
Regards Kim😋
+P Star Thanks Kim! :)
Congrats on hitting your first patreon milestone!
+PodeCoet Thank YOU for your major contribution to reaching it! ;)
The VIC-20 was also sold as the "VC-20" here in the UK.
Awesome video Jan.
Make sure the caps are rated for 105*C for longer life.
Also keep in mind that dipped non-polariezed caps can go bad as well if they are near hot areas such as a Transistor. So don't always think it's just the electrolytics.
I would keep the RF shield on. It is there to protect the outside world and the system itself, all it takes is something that is beating at the same frequency and strange things happen. For an easy eample a RC car that is has a 27MHz radio reciever and something else on using that frequency band can make the car move around on its own.
Thanks for the valuable tips! I try to use 105C wherever available (should have mentioned that in the video, too). I will keep an eye on the dipped caps as well in the future. As for the shielding I guess it's a decision between heat buildup (due to the bad design) and RF safety. Difficult to decide what is more important.
The ICs are going to get hot reguardless since after all they're semiconductors. As long as they're around 1/3 of the maximum temp rating from the Datasheet of the IC it should be fine.
I wonder if the datasheets for the old MOS chips are floating around the internet somewhere. Would be really interesting to see the original specs. I also thought about replacing the ROMs with CMOS EPROMs to make them run cooler. They should at least draw less current, as far as I know.
Get me some part numbers and I can look them up.
Chances are the ROM is already a CMOS based chip. Believe it or not TTL wasn't used that much in most digital circuits. Looking at a digital circuit such as a computer motherboard the CPU, RAM and ROM are CMOS while the glue logic was TTL but in the late 80s and early 90s when the HC line of the 74 series logic chips hit the market it was mostly CMOS .
This video is not boring at all. Great work. I didn't know you had an ESR+. I've been considering buying one for a while now, but have been getting by with my cheapy GM328 Component Tester, which does calculate ESR, not sure how accurate though.
+MindFlareRetro Thanks! I'd recommend the ESR+ if you are regularly troubleshooting stuff. It's pretty pricey unfortunately. Got it quite a while back primarily for audio repairs. Spared me some headaches at least. ;)
I have Atlas ESR+ too, great tool. BTW, beeping indicates that cap is ok but it doesn't neccessarily mean the ESR is good for that specific capacitance/voltage combination. Google "ESR chart" and always compare the measurement with the value in the chart. Atlas can beep to indicate that cap is ok but if you look at that specific cap in the ESR chart, you'll see that the ESR is higher than it should be which means the cap is about to fail soon.
Good to know. Thanks for the info. How accurate is it measuring in-circuit caps?
Not sure about accuracy but you can't do it if there are parallel caps in-circuit. I mean, you can but you'll get wrong results because it will measure all of them at the same time and it will display only the lowest ESR value IIRC. If it's just one cap then it's ok to do it in-circuit.
Sounds good. Now I have to find an Atlas ESR+ at a reasonable price. =/
Another good video, thanks
Glad you liked it. Thank you! :)
I agree on all of this. Great video !
+bwack Thank you Hans!
This version of gridrunner is actually not at all like the arcade version, but Jeff was capable of making an absolutely amazing game on a VC20!
His new game Polybius comes highly recommended, it has a lot of old 8-bit references. You'd like it. I'm hoping for an Oculus release as well.
It is absolutely stunning taking the limited capabilities of the VIC into account. Very fun game still. :) I saw some gameplay video about Polybius and it sure looked good. I don't have any modern gaming stuff around though except for my PC (which isn't all that modern really) so I'm waiting for the PC version to check it out myself. :)
Another nice video, thx!
Thank you! :)
Another great video from you Jan! I always brings joy to my heart to see someone restore/service these old machines so they can live and play games for another 30 years.
I have a strange issue with my C64c. It runs perfectly fine, the SID sounds great and the picture looks good, but when I try to run the games Creatures and Mayhem in Monsterland they just keep crashing all the time. I tried both the Tape version and Disk version of both games, but they just boot up, runs for a few seconds and then gives of a wierd GONG sound and then just freezes and goes silent. I tried the games in an emulator to make sure they aren't corrupt or something and they run fine there. I tried other demanding games like Lemmings and they run without a hitch!
It's so wierd why only those two games keep crashing all the time. Maybe some bad caps could be the culprit? I am going to recap it soon, just trying to find the time to do it. Maybe I'll also try to find some heatsinks and apply them as well.
Mmmh, difficult to say. I'd guess it's some issue with one of the ICs (processor or RAM maybe?) rather than the caps. They usually are at least close to their original specs in the C64s. It doesn't at all hurt to replace them, though (as I mentioned in the video they all go bad gradually over time). I had some strange crashes with a broken VIC-II chip recently that only showed on particular games. But that was more about graphics glitches and wrong colors. I linked the heatsinks I used in the description. I consider them quite good value for money (the link is eBay Germany though).
Just for curiosity, I took my computer apart to have a look at the ICs. I removed the CPU, and I noticed one of the pins on it was a little corroded. I cleaned it up and the socket as well and then put everything back together again to test it out. The games now runs for a few seconds longer before they crash, so the treatment at least improved it a little. But if I power the computer back on right after it crashed, the start-up screen was locked up and the text showed similar colours like the screen was before I turned it off. It works fine again if I wait about 5 seconds after powering it off. So it may be one of the memory chips that is about to go bad, but not just dead yet. It's going to be a pain o find which one because I don't have a diagnostics cartridge.
Just wanted to update on how my troubleshooting is going. :) And btw, My model have metalshielding that also acts as a giant heatsink so I might not need to fit any heatsinks after all.
Thanks for the update. That's an interesting failure mode. Very difficult to pinpoint though. If cleaning the CPU changed it I'd suggest thoroughly cleaning the pins and especially the socket again. I've seen sockets that wouldn't work well but looked perfectly fine.
There's some C64 self-test programs around on disk/D64 that could help pinpoint the fault without having to buy a cartridge. I uploaded an archive here: app.box.com/s/2xy4kf2oojctbpzmqcavuq1xrctua5mb (not mine, so I didn't test all of it).
The heatsink should be okay. I'd suggest applying some fresh thermal paste though.
Hope you can fix the issue! :)
Thank you so much for the diagnostics files! It really helped a lot! I ran some tests and it reported that the CPU, SID, VIC-II and RAM were all OK. However, it did report a faulty U5 Timing chip. With the help of your files, it turned out to be the Character ROM. But the funny thing is it only reported it as BAD during the first cycle. I let it run for additional 10 cycles and then it reported back OK every single time. I did a hard reset to perform a new fresh test, and again during the first cycle the Character ROM came out as BAD, but then as OK during the next 10 or so cycles I let it run through. Now that made me scratch my head for a bit since I didn't think that one could possibly give the errors I've been getting. But if it appeared as bad in the Timing section, does it actually control some kind of timing that could mess up some programs if it is faulty?
So now I know what to replace, but it is not socketed so it's gonna be a pain to get it out since I don't have a desoldering station.
Thanks again for the help Jan! Now I am one step closer to solve this mystery! If it turns out to be the Character ROM, I will post it on that pictoral fault guide site you linked in that other video.
That's interesting. Might really be the U5 or the character ROM (although I don't see why the char ROM could cause any timing issues or crashes). I don't know for sure but it could also be the PLA slowly going bad because it is responsible for controlling which chip is active at which time. Maybe there's some timing issue resulting from that and it's misreported by the diagnostics. It's always a bit of detective work (and a lot of guessing) repairing these old machines. Did you take a look at Ray Carlsen's fault guides, too?
i miss my VIC..WAS MY 1ST COMPUTER
soverysleepy Same here. 😭🤜🤛😭
Nice job =D
Thank you, Sir! :)
Great video!
Why don't you also use some thermal paste?
Had a question on the heat shield with my C64 - It has the same one as your VC-20. Will there be any monitor interference removing it from my C64? I use S-Video with a new cable. Thanks! (oh p.s. - i signed up for your Patreon today :-) )
Nice one. Did you ever think about a small fan construction for those caes? Keep on!
Thanks! I thought about fans a bit but didn't like the idea because of the noise. Ray Carlsen (THE Commodore repair guru) has written an article about the matter and argues that it's really difficult to position a fan in the c64/vc20/c16 cases to have good airflow. He says it's better to have good heatsinking so I went with that for now. ;)
@@JanBeta Sorry for waking up a 2 year old comment, but I want to understand better. Even in 2020, adding heat sinks to bread bin machines is popular.
I'm not sure adding heat sinks to these machines is actually beneficial. Although there are slots in the top and bottom, these bread bin cases are small and not well ventilated. An argument can be made that air will flow via convection in the bread bin. However, I don't think there will be enough draft to significantly decrease the ambient temperature inside the case. After all, decreasing the ambient temperature in the case is required for proper functioning of the heat sinks. Adding a fan to force warm air out will work much better, even if placement isn't "perfect". I don't see a case for adding heat sinks, but not a fan, in a confined area. Curious about your thoughts.
Great videos, BTW!
Nice vid. Worth doing the recap. Going to get that ESR meter too 😀. I have that exact same de-soldering gun and it is awesome for removing chips. Do you know where to get spares for it? There was a place I found in the UK but I think it has closed down now. Cheers.
Thanks! The ESR meter is expensive but really worth it if you are troubleshooting. :)
I saw spare parts for the desoldering station on eBay but don't know any other source.
Nice :)
That's so funny how the 6502 wasn't one of the IC's that got too hot.... And it's always processing. It never enters any kind of sleep state, awaiting an interrupt.
Yeah, they stay relatively cool. Probably due to the clever design and the low density of transistors on the dye. In some later Commodore systems with higher clock speeds, 6502 derivatives run a bit toastier though (e.g. the C16/Plus 4).
Ich habe gestern die Elkos aus meinem zweit C64 getauscht und nachgemessen. Da waren Datecodes von 1987 und Anfang 88 drauf. Die waren alle noch recht gut. Ich habe sie durch 105°C Typen ersetzt. Das ist am besten. Schlecht waren früher immer die Sockel. Die habe ich durch welche mit gedrehten Kontakten ersetzt.
Ja, mit den Sockeln hatte ich vor allem in Amigas Probleme, da hat Commodore anscheinend noch sparsamere verbaut. Die Kondensatoren in meinen C64ern waren auch alle noch halbwegs gut, allerdings vertraue ich denen allgemein ab einem gewissen Alter nicht mehr. Hast du bei dir auch den Effekt, dass das Bild nach dem "Recappen" klarer und schärfer wurde? Habe ich bisher fast immer feststellen können.
@@JanBeta Einen großen Unterschied beim Bild habe ich nicht feststellen können. Allerdings ist wohl mein S-Video/HDMI-Umsetzer auch nicht ganz the yellow from the egg. Ich habe gestern einen "Screen shot" mit einem USB-Framegrabber gemacht, welcher durchaus besser aussieht, aber immer noch das wohl typische Streifenmuster hat (ich habe früher gedacht, es gehört so :-)): flic.kr/p/QywoRU (schau bitte mal). Es ist noch nicht das Bild meines heiligen Original C64 von 1983. Den habe ich auch noch nicht ge-recapt. Hier werde ich in jedem Fall ein Vorher-Nachher-Vergleich machen. Was benutzt Du zur Sichtbarmachung des C64 Bildes auf einem normalen Monitor?
Die Elkos habe ich noch einmal mit meinem LCR-Meter nachgemessen (vorher hatte ich mein Fluke-Multimeter benutzt). Die Kapazitäten sind alle etwas niedriger gewesen, als zuvor gemessen, aber immer noch im Bereich der Toleranz (bei Elkos ist das schon einmal -20%).
@@JanBeta mit dem klareren Bild ist ja interessant, muss ich mal probieren, danke für den Tipp!
Nice one. I guess you can eliminate kernal heating by replacing it with (E)EPROM. Not sure what type of ROM VIC20 uses.
+discoHR Should be a 2364-style one like on the C64 afaik. Definitely something I want to try (I also secretly want to try the VIC 20 version of JiffyDOS).
I've found that VIC-20s seem to be *much* more reliable than the C64 for some reason. I have two VIC-20's that worked flawlessly as soon as I got them, and I also saw another one that worked perfectly fine. In fact, I haven't seen a VIC-20 yet that wasn't working. But I hear about C64's breaking down all the time. I got a C64 a while ago, but it's not working :(
I wonder why the VIC-20 seems to be more robust and reliable than the C64, even though it's an older computer?
Yes, i have two C64 and both has memory issues, one was totally broken, but i repared it. The other has some temporary memory issues, i think it doesnt take long until that c64 breaks too.
hi, Jan. Is it changing the caps just precautionary, or is it something I need to be doing to my C64 (B)? Danke schön!
I've not seen a C64 yet where the caps were so bad that it crashed the system. As I mentioned in the video I'd still recommend doing it as they ALL go bad gradually with time and will eventually lead to weird behavior or even damage the system when they go too far out of spec.
Jan Beta - Thanks for the reply. OK, I guess I should just do it :-)
That antistatic wrist strap.. If I got one, where would I connect it? There is no earth in the wall sockets here. So, what.. Plumbing? Radiator? Or can I connect it to the device I'm working on? Sorry, if my questions are funny, I'm not sure how "earth works".. :)
Never had a VIC-20, and not in a hurry to get one. That being said, I'm still a bit curious about it. So if one falls in my lap for cheap someday... :) Nice video as always. I should replace caps on more of my machines. I only did it on my main A500, and had someone else do my A1200. I'd like to have my new CD32 recapped, but I bet it has SMD caps, so that's a job for someone else.. :)
+Casual Commodore There are different ways to ground yourself. Connecting to the mains earth works by connecting to plumbing and radiators. If the piece you are working on has a common ground you can use that too (like the tinned ground pad all around the PCB on C64s). When working on more modern PCs I usually connect to the metal case for example. It's all about discharging electrostatic buildup in your body that could otherwise "zap" components. Be careful to not use a wrist strap when working on charged items (like CRTs) otherwise the discharge can happen through your wrist strap/body if you accidentally touch the wrong spot. Most of the times it's fine to just touch something like a radiator before work to discharge yourself properly.
The CD32 definitely needs a recap soon. I heard the leakage is even worse than in the A1200s. There's also one cap in there in the wrong direction/polarity if I remember correctly that is pretty much under stress for that reason. And yes, mostly SMDs in there unfortunately. ;)
Ah, okay. Prior to, and a few times during, touching bare electronics, I touch surfaces that I remember zapped me sometime. But I think I will get me a wrist strap.
A cap is reversed? After reading that, I immediately googled it, and opened up my CD32 to check. All revision 3 CD32 boards, including mine, have TWO reversed capacitors (both through-hole type). And mine look a little bulgy.. Crap.. :-/ I can't afford a recap service these days. I have now ordered a couple, and will replace those two, because they are critical, and I can deal with non-smd caps. :) Then I can get it recapped in a few months. Thanks for telling me this!!
Not long until I can get that Honey Bee pad from you.. :)
Touching something grounded is usually sufficient. I did the same before I got the wrist strap and still do it for quick repairs. Most of the old computers can take a lot of zapping before they fail anyway. ;)
Didn't know there were even two caps reversed in the CD32... I guess Commodore rushed production back then because they were nearly bankrupt already. :/
One more thing: The through-hole caps are probably very hard to solder, too (much harder than on the A500 for example) because the board has three or four layers, one being a ground layer that sucks away a lot of heat. Make sure to heat them up well and be careful not to damage traces in between. Had quite some trouble with that on the Macintosh I recapped recently. It was a bit easier on the A1200 (I think it has thinner layers, should be the same on the CD32).
I'd offer a recap service but I'm not confident enough to do it to other people's machines yet. I'd be too afraid to destroy stuff.
Layers? Wow, never heard of layered PCB's.. But then, there are a lot of things I never heard of. Most likely.. :) Thanks, I will watch out for that.
Thanks for the thought of offering to recap it! It's the thought that counts, hehe.. :) I do understand your concerns. I was planning on just using amigakit.com 's recapping service. They did a very good job with my 1200, so I guess I'll use them again.
There's many secrets in electronics I have to still explore, too. ;) Learning new stuff every day. That's a huge part of the fun.
Amigakit should be a good choice. :)
Hey bud, just wondering can the 25v 2200uf capacitor cause the paddles to suddenly work jumpy and not so responsive? I finally got a vic chip for it and was working perfectly until last night. Paddles work fine on my other vic20. I noticed the capacitor is connected to the joystick port. VIA chips are good too. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Don
The 2200uF capacitor is responsible for filtering the rectified voltage coming from the bridge rectifier, should have nothing to do with the paddles or joystick input. The VIC chip handles the paddles, maybe there's a bad contact on the socket or the VIC chip itself has issues. I'd try the VIC chip in the other VIC20 and see if the fault occurs there with that chip. If it doesn't I would check the socket, spray contact cleaner into it or replace it with a new one. The capacitor is very unlikely to cause the issue if the rest of the system works I think. Hope that helps! I'm not much of an expert regarding the VIC-20 unfortunately. :D
Ok. Thank you very much for replying. I hope it's not the vic chip because I just finally found this one.
Hello again. Unfortunately it is the vic chip that is bad. I did the swapping. Another chip will come along someday. Thanks for your help:)
Great video, but you made a mistake at 10:20 (not 1,4mm, 1.4cm) :)
Thanks. :) Ah, a silly typo! Sorry about that. Double mistake. I'm saying it wrongly plus the text is wrong, too... D'oh. ;)
my Vic-20 came with orange function keys if I remember well
Yes, most of them have orange keys I think. I came to the conclusion that mine is a pretty late model where Commodore used the C64 keyboard for the VIC 20s, too.
Maybe also because its a German model ? I don't see the german Oe and other german letters but maybe there are different key-symbols printed on the sides of the keys than was on my 'Dutch model'. Funny thing: back then here was a pop-program called Avro's TopPop and the presenter , Ad Visser was on an advertisement brochure saying it is a wonderful computer :) It was back then ofcourse :)
No, there were no special German keyboards for the VIC or the C64. They just used the US keyboard for them. The first Commodore that had small print "Umlauts" on some keys was the C128 afaik. It's funny to see old ads for the 80s computers. I'm sure there's some funny celebrity ads from Germany, too. I know that the manager of German soccer club Bayern München was advertising C64 GEOS back then, for example (the team had Commodore as their main sponsor, too). ;)
oh right. since you start your video saying its the German VC20 instead of the Vic-20 I assumed it must've been different somewhere. EDIT: I found the reason for the name change is because VIC can mean something different in German (I don't know what)
The only difference is the name, really. "VIC" can mean the f-word in German if pronounced slightly differently so Commodore wisely changed it. ;)
Any advice for someone with an original Vic-20 with 2-prong power supply?
I would like to see some measurements comparing stock, no shields and with heatsinks. Someone got some numbers?
still playing with the idea to get me a VC20 with a superexpander to get some retro feelings to my first computer....
I was under the impression that what KILLS VIC 20s is the power supply getting old and providing too much voltage. Your intentions are good, but replacing perfectly fine caps and adding extraneous heatsinks may give a false sense of security and the wrong idea that the machine would be future proof and safe to use with the original power supply.
It's the same with Commodore 64. It would be nice to find somewhere readymade protectors to be plugged between the power supply and the computer.
I managed to find some fitting connectors, and tried to make a cable, with intention having two plugs in the other end, one for 9 V AC and the other for 5 V DC. But I couldn't solder the wires to the DIN plug because the plug was made to be used with some really thin wires -- probably just for data transfer. But I would have wanted to use a cable with a little thicker wires because it was going to be used for couple of amperes of current.
Probably the easiest starting point would be finding a failed original powersupply that would still have the cable from the PSU to the computer still in good shape, and just use that cable, and connect a 9 V AC power supply and a 5 V DC power supply to it.
Yes, you're perfectly right. There's going to be an addendum video in a couple of hours. I kind of forgot to elaborate on this issue because I did it in the C64 future proofing video. :/
Take a look at bwack's C64saver. Highly recommended and just what you are looking for. Plugs between the PSU and the computer. Protects from overvoltage and undervoltage. You can contact him to order one from him: ruclips.net/p/PLtQOf_JULmrTcctS0RkOP9-4GB3BP9m1d
I made my own C64/VIC20 power supply, too. Works just like you suggested. I only added fuses for extra protection. ruclips.net/video/wWOU2sZv_ng/видео.html
Neat ... you exchanged mostly perfectly fine capacitors (which you even confirmed in the end) and applied heatsinks to chips that worked ~30 years without them - yet failed to adress a well known issue with some of the chips that can be found in your specific machine. I'm sorry, but this video has nothing to do with future proofing a machine, but instead with occupational therapy for humans ;)
There's going to be an addendum video in a couple of hours. I still think it makes perfect sense to replace +30 years old caps. Even if the old ones are still good now, they are always deteriorating with age so they are going to go out of spec eventually. Same for the ICs. It would have been better to have good heat dissipation from the start but I don't see why it would be pointless to add them to aging components (that definitely don't get any more robust with age).
The VIC-20 and C64 chips are slowly burning out if you don't do something about it, especially on the C64 the VIC-II and SID chips can fail.
I personally will add heat sinks to my Vic 20's chips (the ones shown here one being the VIC chip itself CPU) I think it serves to at least improve the performance and extend the life because from my limited knowledge of computers the cooler a computer runs or rather a consistent stable temperature the less chance of any "slow down" in performance ... would it be possible to add a FAN in there too? That would be a bit of a novelty having something whirring away inside the VIC ...watercooling a transparent VICnow that would be something :)