Swords of the Ming Dynasty: Introduction to One-Handed Types
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- Опубликовано: 21 янв 2022
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An introduction to the main one-handed sword types of the Ming and early Qing Dynasties in China.
Excellent related articles can be found at Mandarin Mansion ( www.mandarinmansion.com/articles ). Swords from LK Chen ( lkchensword.com/ )
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no.
22:23 It's more complicated than that.
In Japan, don't forget it was the Sengoku Jidai, Warring States Period, therefore many Samurai who have been defeated in battle had nowhere go but to take to the sea and become pirates.
In China, massive influx of silver from the New World by Europeans who bought away manufactured goods caused massive inflation in the Empire. Therefore, the Imperial Court banned foreign trade. This led to a lot of smuggling.
Therefore, many Chinese smugglers decided to hire Japanese Ronin Samurai, i.e. Samurai without lords to pay them, as bodyguards. Armed organised smuggling rings sprang up as more and more Chinese smugglers hired more and more Japanese warriors. Eventually, the Imperial Court decided to clamp down on them and this led to the conflict which you mentioned.
To elaborate on the Disk Guard. It is very likely that they first appeared in China when a certain General was tasked with repelling the coastal attacks of mostly Japanese pirates, who were known to use the Nodachi. Sources allegedly attribute the creation of the Miao Dao to the Chinese General Qi Jiguang, who adapted the Nodachi to be lighter and straighter since he "had no intention of fighting the Japanese at their own game", I believe to complement their more nimble style of martial arts. That being said, it is highly ironic that both Korea and Japan seeked out Chinese bladesmiths because their metallurgical skills were simply superior.
As a Mandarin speaker, kudos on your pronunciation! I'd love to see a video with your thoughts on polearms of China especially the Gun Dao and Han Ji.
Spoilers- the Green Crescent blade didn’t exist in the Late Han/Three Kingdoms period. It was a fabrication written by the author who has a Shu fetish.
@@martytu20 Yeah! I would agree that Guan Yu didn't probably wield a Guan Dao, I think the evidence suggests that weapon was first innovated in the 11th century (Wujing Zongyao 武經總要 1040-1044 AD) and added in the fictionalized Romance of the Three Kingdoms from the 14th century. My understanding is that he probably wielded a kind of saber as evidenced by the Gujin Daojianlu 古今刀劍錄 which is a very interesting source from ~500 AD that discusses sabers and swords of the time or a Han Ji as was common to cavalry of the era.
That being said, he does pronounce dao wrong, as well as some other words.
The reason for why the 倭腰刀 (woyaodao) looked similar to the Japanese katana was just as the video creator said, however, the details of this Sino-Japanese interaction are not entirely correct. The Jiajing 倭寇 (Wokou, or Wo bandit) raids of the Eastern Chinese coast during the mid 16th century were the primary reason, and indeed, the Wokou used katanas, however, the vast majority (~70%) of the Wokou during this time were in fact Chinese, not Japanese. The Wokou started out Japanese, as the end of the Northern and Southern Courts period drove many Ronin out of employment, and Kyushu was impoverished. As a result, piracy, sponsored by the So Domain in Tsushima, started to become a major problem, and the Wokou were born. However, the Wokou around this time were a small nuisance, and the issue started to subside in the 15th century as the Sengoku Jidai created employment for many Ronin. The rapid expansion of the Wokou during the mid 16th century, during which the Woyaodao was invented, was due to vast numbers of Chinese merchants and smugglers turning to piracy and becoming Wokou. The 海禁 (sea-ban), which legally banned almost all private maritime trade, had been in force since the beginning of the Ming Dynasty in the late 14th century, however, it had mostly been ignored, and Chinese maritime trade was nonetheless vibrant during this time. However, during the early to mid 16th century during the rule of the Emperor Jiajing, the arrival of Europeans such as the Portuguese brought about a surge of demand for Chinese products, and as a result, there was an explosion of smuggling activity that the Imperial court could not ignore. After a failed attempt in 1549 to oppress the smugglers which ended in the suicide of the official in charge, the smugglers used the vacuum left by the failed suppression attempt to raid the coast, after which they were officially declared outlaws, and the Jiajing Wokou raids began. The smugglers rapidly headquartered themselves in Japan, which had a long-established tradition of piracy, a nonexistent central government due to the Sengoku Jidai, and as such local authorities that could be easily placated, and Ronin and Portuguese mercenaries for hire, as many Portuguese soldiers of fortune wandered Asia during this time, and the Sengoku Jidai was winding down, leaving many Ronin unemployed again. They were joined by many other Chinese merchants and smugglers whose livelihoods were ruined due to the tightening of the already onerous sea-ban laws after the failed suppression attempt, and this grand coalition of Chinese smugglers, Japanese Ronin, Portuguese mercenaries, and others were all grouped as the Wokou, and they began to sack the Chinese coast en masse. Thus, the Wokou raids of this time were caused by Chinese internal politics and its economic situation, and as such, the vast majority of the "Japanese" pirates were actually Chinese merchants and smugglers who were resisting the sea ban. As they were based in Japan, they naturally used Japanese weapons which were easily at their disposal, such as the katana. The Ming army around this time was an utter shambles due to the inaction and ineptitude of the Emperor Jiajing, which caused massive corruption and negligence in all aspects of government, including in the army. As such, they lost repeatedly to the Wokou, and the poor maintenance of their weapons was one reason why. As such, one talented Chinese commander who turned the tide of the war, 戚繼光 (Qi Jiguang), saw the merits of the Japanese katana and copied versions of it for his troops. Thus, the woyaodao and 苗刀 (miaodao, a giant version of the katana) were born, and an alternative name for the woyaodao is the 戚家刀 (qijiadao, literally "Qi-family sabre"). Eventually, due to internal army reforms and talented commanders, the Wokou were militarily defeated, but it wasn't until the legalisation of foreign trade in 1567 and loosening of the sea-ban law under the next Emperor, Longqing, that the Wokou completely disappeared as a force. The first and only time the Chinese and Japanese states actually fought each other during the Ming Dynasty was the Imjin War of 1592-1598, long after the Wokou raids and the invention of the woyaodao, during which the Japanese, united after the end of the Sengoku Jidai, invaded Korea, a tributary state of Ming China, which responded by sending its army, and together with the Korean navy and local militias the Japanese were defeated.
This is a great summary. Some breaks in paragraphs would make it a lot easier to read, though.
Like this!
@@nevisysbryd7450 copy and paste into a text application and make your own line breaks
Like I did
@@nowthenzen I think it's still fair criticism to tell the commenter to use paragraphs. I used to do this a lot as I am not a native English speaker. In many languages, the concept of paragraphs is not even present. It is constructive criticism and does help people post better replies.
Great resume. But i really doubt there were many ronins between the wokou before 1591, after the social reforms and expansionism of Hideyoshi. Most Japanese before that could have been ashigarus, mixed with Wajin and Ryukyuan pirates, since those two groups even colluded with daymios if Kyushu island and Chinese pirates lords, like Wang Zhi.
@@othertipo
Perhaps I was not clear. There were no more Ronin in the Wokou between 1567 and 1591, because the Wokou disappeared as a force after 1567. The Jiajing Wokou were also led by Wang Zhi, the chief smuggler in China.
Chinese disc guards could be imported, but they could also be evolved from the tear drop shaped guards commonly seen on Song Dynasty swords of the 12-13th centuries.
Disc guard is almost certainly developed or evolved locally in China and East Asian region, because 1. the oldest and most abundance relics of disc guard swords in the world so far are excavated in China, and China, including other East Asian cultures such as Japan, Korea, Khitans, Jurchens,...etc use disc guard swords the most, no other region used disc guard swords as extensive as in China and East Asia. 2. Tang dynasty iron bian / jian(鐵鐧、鐵鞭 Chinese sword breaker / truncheon) already had disc shape guard which is oldest example of sword-liked weapons with disc guard, and it looks almost identical to the one later appeared on swords, so it's highly possible disc guard is evolved from Chinese sword breaker(鐧、鞭), which is actually anti-armor weapon not anti-sword weapon btw.
@@MrGod47 The shape of the guard seems to me like a very simple and mainly stylistic choice that could easily be "discovered" independently any where. Forgive me for thinking this, but its origin seems hardly worth the effort to determine or postulate, even for the most mundane of academic reasons.
China had some disk pommel and hand guard in bronze swords and bronze handle iron blade sword era.....Spring and Autumn to Han Dynasty...More related to Huns。 春秋青铜剑，匈奴铜柄剑，鲜卑铜柄剑，都有圆型剑格。圆剑格与东北游牧民族的关系较大
Regarding the typical jian guard of the Ming/qing period, I find that the deeper/thicker guard helps to better protect the hand against angled cuts that would have sliced into the hand behind a thin, typical medieval western type quillon. The relatively shorter width could be due to techniques that require tight movements around the wrist (I knocked myself in the forearm with an arming sword trying to execute the same type of technique).
Those are just my own conjectures. I’m partial to the jian’s aesthetics myself but it is not a better or worse weapon than other swords, just one with its own pros and cons.
I have been following you for 10 years or so. You have been my favorite channel for that entire time. I think your quality is improving and the information gets better. Thanks
Wow, thank you!
Learned more about Chinese swords than I have before today.
What's crazy is the number of different swords they also have. Like the butterfly and the hook swords.
You might be interested in looking up "Swords and sabres of the Ming Dynasty" on great ming.
Particularly near the end concerning jian.
Increase in Japanese swords actually go back further to the Song Dynasty.
The term "O-katana" you're probably aware of is already but for anybody that doesn't it's a modern term marketing one at that, longer katanas were simply just called katanas they were not restricted to the size recognize today edo period. Longer blades did become popular again for time tho after laws lifted.
You may be also interested in this article it talks about the miao dao in the video.
"Old or New? The Miaodao and Invention in Chicness Martial Arts"
With cup guards, in addition to making the edge of the guard more comfortable against the body, the raised lip makes the guard MUCH more rigid at the rim than it otherwise would be. Rigidity scales cubically with changes in thickness opposing the vector of force, so a raised lip makes the rim significantly more resistant to blows in that direction with very little increase in mass. It would also have the benefits of being more likely to damage the edge of an opposing weapon and create a "sticking" effect.
And one more thing, the original Chinese bladed hand weapons were Axe and Giant Axe, then Chinese adopt double blade Sword design from nomad tribes.
Short swords start to show up around early Zhou Dynasty but not as common as other major weapons in the army (殳, 矛, 酋, 戈, 戟 - Metal Stud Club, Spear, Short Spear, Dagger Spear and Pike), then Jian/Sword become a major weapon category in late Zhou, and become well praised weapon since Age of Spring and Autumn.
My goodness. I remember back when he only had that clunky Boxer Rebellion Dao in 2017, and I remember wishing that he would get something of higher quality, something that really shows China's height of craftsmanship, like either a Goose Quill (雁翎 Yànlíng) Dao or a Willow Leaf (柳葉 Liǔyè) Dao. Now he finally has one. So happy.
Matt’s the best
I believe that's the dao I bought from Matt; or possibly a similar one. Infantry dao weren't a very big step from being disposable weapons, but we know from accounting records that they'd generally be replaced every campaign, and that the army bought them in lots of tens or hundreds of thousands. These were not works of art. They did their job and were replaced. (Kind of like the infantrymen who carried them, unfortunately. The life expectancy on a Chinese sword/shield/spear line was measured in months in major conflicts.) The one I own appears to have two hot-worked repairs near the tip and several significant cold filings/resharpenings, which may mean it outlasted several users. (Note that the style of disk guard on Matt's horse-tail dao / kung-fu-club broadsword with the flat ring around the guard dates to later in the 19th-century to 20th-century when rolled steel became available.) I also own a jian blade that's likely from the late Qing dynasty (but could be Republican era -- anything with a provable history gets snapped up by Chinese millionaires) with brass inlay that's a much higher quality piece.
@@jeffreyquinn3820 Cool! glad it made its way into the hands of someone who'll appreciate it. And you make a good point. Even though I may have disparaged it, I somewhat regret that now. At the time I made my comment I was comparing it with the other antique Dao I had seen for sale from other periods that in my opinion looked aesthetically nicer and lighter/more lively. That being said, it's still a cool piece of history, and I'm glad you're treasuring it.
@@Philxia66 It's still a folded steel blade. For the moment, I've removed the surface rust & waxed it, but I suspect it will polish and etch up well.
@@jeffreyquinn3820 Wow! Kudos for finding that out. Definitely missed that when I saw it in the video. That would increase its value, at least in my opinion. You really are making me see how much I misjudged this piece. Good luck with restoring it.
On a related historical note, when the Ming dynasty founder, the Hongwu Emperor, was secure in his throne and he was busy eliminating his generals and potential threats; one such general named Lan Yu was accused of plotting rebellion for having 10,000 Japanese swords in his residence. This was in the very early days of the Ming Empire, before even Hideyoshi's invasions and threat to the Chinese tributary system, and so if true may indicate a widespread knowledge, trade, and admiration of Japanese swords.
That's fascinating!
IIRC there's a theory that Ming dynasty China imported Japanese Sword because they lack in good two-handed swords. Took them some time to copy and improve the nodachi design to create their own miaodao.
Is it possible the Japanese were supplying the rebel uprisings with weapons during the end of the Yuan?
@@brockendshapelle5518 The Chinese already had the zhanmadao from the Han dynasty. It could just have been an issue of supply and demand.
@@Yorosero No Chinese Dao was curved. It was influenced by Japanese swords during the Ming dynasty because of the pirate invasion into China and Korea.
It used to be that finding a good Chinese sword was impossible, I'm very happy that they are becoming more popular
I really enjoy these little chats, thank you for taking the time to make these good sir... theres sooo much good info in these....
They're very cool-looking swords. Very elegant.
I love these chinese sword videos because it's something I had just about no knowledge about before. LK Chen have some awesome swords on their site, I'd love to see you review their Twin Peaks Liao Dao 👍
Love you going over all of this, and cannot wait to see you teaming up with Peter! He is always super helpful.
Also, thanks for touching on the “Chinese broadsword” not being from this period :)
This was an absolutely *fascinating* presentation, especially in how elements from the swords of the various neighboring cultures were incorporated by the Chinese 👍👍 Thankyou 👍👍
Those are some very beautiful looking swords you have there. I cannot wait to see them in future videos. LK Chen's replicas and presence on the market here has been really instructional for me when it comes to Chinese swords. I have to say, they have WAY MORE variety than I used to think.
It’s a rabbit hole they just keeps going deeper the more you look :)
The *only* thing I will ding Matt in this video is the suggestion that there is a great deal of conservation of design in the Jian, across Chinese history: if we look at even just surviving Ming examples the huge range of guard types as well as blade sizes to me shows a great variation than what you could find on say, 500 years of arming sword furniture in Europe.
Disc guard in Chinese swords can be find in earlier than Tang or Sui dinasty. A jian (which is made in Sui Dinasty) in Shanghai WUSHU musium has a diamond shaped disc guard. Of course, you can also see many chinese dao or swords use different guards from west Asia(the cross star guard, etc) or somewhere else.
Always nice to learn something new from Matt!
Brilliant video, very well made this time mate
Thanks for going into detail on the lovely family of swords that developed the Jiang and Tai Chi Sword. They remind me so much of the old Roman Gladius.
According to the Great Ming Military blog & Cheng Zongyou's late-Ming manual, crossbowers & arquebusiers did sometimes use two-handed swords (Chang Dao) as sidearms. Cheng gave the overall length for such swords as around 47in (119cm), very similar to many European longswords. Also note that a common shield used with spears & other staff weapons was the Ai Pai, which allowed for two-handed use via its strapping system. Ming soldiers who wielded longer spears & other staff weapons in both hands without a staff weapon.
Thanks for the content, I would love to see you connect with Scott Rodell from the Great River Taoist Center. It would be wonderful if you can both put history and practicality together in some videos.
I really want to get that Yan Ling Dao. I'm a katana guy, but that sword just looks like such a good cutter. Wish I had the funds right now.
I just got mine, and LK has really done a good job on the edge this time. Very consistent and sharp!
@@dlatrexswords nice. I got their royal Arsenal Dao a while back and she came super dull. Everything else was great, and I've made some really nice cuts with her, but upon unboxing, she was butter knife, can run edge over your jugular level dull. But steel was great and took a very keen edge. Feel free to search my name and Dao and I've done countless videos with her if you would like to see.
in general, chinese swords throughout history saw many cultures coming in and out since china was the powerhouse of trade and influence in the far east of asia. so you will see lots of islamic and steppe features on ming and qing fittings. after the dominance of the yuan, east asia begun adopted curved swords as the standard for singkle edged war blades.
Really good video thanks for sharing this information with us 👍🏻
Great stuff, Matt!⚔
你有很漂亮剑。
Great vid, Matt. Very fun and informative
It might be worth mentioning that the Yan Ling Dao isn't actually a 1:1 replica--at least from what I can tell. I think they used to advertise it as such but have removed that from the description on the website. The grip is a bit longer than the original. LK Chen put out a (somewhat convoluted) video about it (link below). It talks about how the original handle was uncomfortable, and that the extended handle is "still within the scope of antiquities 依然在古物的范围内," and they show a spreadsheet of comparable historical examples, so it seems they were still very considerate in the change that they made. It's just not 1:1. Philip Martin also discusses this in his review.
太阳刀介绍 Sun Dao introduction
ruclips.net/video/IorYOSVznWA/видео.html
Philip Martin's review
ruclips.net/video/Y96D5CF3ShI/видео.html
Size of people change from generation to generation. So are size of artifacts.
@@MtRevDr Thanks! That's a great point, and I think it's a good argument for extending the handle. I don't think it detracts from the sword, I just think it's worth noting that it's not actually 1:1.
I bought the Yan Ling Dao last year. It’s indeed a very nice sword, handles well, good fit and finish. I can definitely recommend it!
Very informative video as as always Matt. I also really like the Yanling Dao a lot. I already have Dao in my collection the later peroid Oxtail from Hanwei but was looking for an early peroid for quite some time. The Yangling Dao is the type of Dao I was looking for. It seems to be really well made and should do a great job for test cutting practise.
10:50 Man, I'd really like to hear more about those kung fu peasant militias.
I hope you make a video about them in the future.
Yes it's interesting and one often doesn't hear much about it. Ben Judkins - Kung Fu Tea sometimes mentions them in his articles.
I quite enjoyed this informative analysis of Chinese Swords. Mahalo and Aloha.
Considering the actual battlefield usage of Dao in Ming China, the most important role for Dao is the main weapon of the Dao & Dun(shield) soldiers. Their mission is basically a supporting work to the formation of spearmen and musketeers, including breaking into enemy lines or protecting comrades with shields， requiring flexibility and martial art skills. In that case, Dao is not likely to be used two handed.
yea the disk guards was adopted by China from Japan, the original Chinese guards were almost all like the guards on Jian
It is like Chinese almost always drank burning wine instead of saki; not that they cannot drink saki. It is just a difference of common taste and production method.
The Yanlingdao has been mentioned all the way back to the Song Dynasty so theoretically it had actually experienced extended use under 4 whole dynasties, Song, Yuan, Ming & Qing.
As for the 'foreign influence', the Yanlingdao isn't influenced that much, it actually preserved a lot of the blade profile of earlier Daos (Namely the false edge)
The Actual 'Main' sabre of the Ming and Qing Dynasty, the Liuyedao on the other hand was strongly influenced by the steppes.
The Woyaodao uses the common blade profile of imports coming from the Ryukyu Kingdom and Japan or are themselves imports.
The changdao also became strongly-influenced by the Odachi albeit with a more restrained curvature.
The Piandao is strongly influenced by the Shamshir/Talwar and were in some cases imports.
The Tsuba/Disc guard was already in-use in China during the Song Dynasty (AD960 to 1279) so it is more contemporaneous than anything else,
EDIT: The Tsuba/Disc Guard may have been in-use much earlier during the Tang Dynasty (AD 618 to 907)
There is one surviving Tang-era sword-mace on-display in Xuzhou Museum/徐州博物館.
Indeed.
Just borrow your thread to post my comment again because somehow it keeps getting auto-deleted:
The oldest sword-liked weapon with disc shape guard is actually discovered in China from Tang dynasty(7th - 10th century ) weapons, not Japan, and it’s actually not found on regular swords but “Chinese sword breakers”(鋼鞭、鋼鐧), which is mainly anti-armor weapon btw, not just anti-sword, and it looks almost the same as the ones appeared later on swords. Japanese don’t have or usually don’t use this type of weapons(鞭and 鐧). So it’s safe to assume the disc sword guards is actually developed or evolved in China, then transmitted to Japan, not the other way around. I like to post some links of examples, but it keeps getting auto-deleted, so you can search the key words ”徐州博物館藏唐代鐵鐧 " on internet and see the picture by yourself.
Later swords in Song dynasty(10th-13th century) and Liao dynasty(10th- 12th century) also already had disc guard swords, such as Song Hand Dao(宋手刀) replicated by LK Chen, I believe this channel and some other people also introduced it before already. I still can't post links because somehow it'll still be auto-deleted, so you can search the key words "Song Hand Dao" or "LK Chen Song Hand Dao" and see the examples by yourself. This channel also had videos about it.
****
Edited: I forgot some Japanese swords during Kofun period such as 圭頭大刀、環頭大刀 also had disc guard, However, those type of swords actually are straight swords and heavily influenced by Chinese swords, sometimes were even directly imported from China and Korea, Japanese categorize these swords as 直刀(straight swords) and 上古刀(antiquity swords) and don't count them as true Japanese swords (日本刀Nihonto). So it's still hard to say disc guard is originated in Japan.
@@MrGod47
👍👊😲👋👏👏👏🔥🔥🔥🔥
That bright green grip on the woyao dao is a punch in the eye!
Fantastic video! And the comment section, it became a documentary! If there's anything I'd love to humbly request, is something on the steel quality and forging methods, would be awesome to know!
Ps. Glad you showed your swords, I don't have many Asian ones, but breathed a sigh of relief in watching those and realizing I wasn't ripped off as I thought - haha!
Ps. 2: I'm definitely going to check out Mandarin Mansion! Cheers and thanks again!
至少，据我所知，在山东省还有很多使用刀剑的传统武术技巧，比如济南市的山东体育学院 ，就有很多教授实战刀剑技巧的教授（同时也是国家级大师），最有名的当然是双手剑宗师“于承惠”老爷子（已去世）。 体院的学生，以及附近山东师范大学和其他几所学校的学生，主要是以体育系的学生为主，但也有很多其他院系的师生，每天下午都会聚在一起在这几所大学里的空旷地方训练一个小时左右，往往都是家传的武艺或者像八卦刀、义和拳（梅花桩）这种有流派传承，师徒关系明确的武功。 毕竟山东是武术大省，口耳相传的剑术样样都有很复杂的细节和秘技（比如刚才说的每天下午只锻炼一个小时左右）。
Damn! The blade on that first mediaevt dao is stunning. When it comes to European swords, I always used to prefer straight, double-edged swords, especially when I was studying longsword and sword and buckler, but these days I am finding these mediaeval backswords very VERY attractive, especially when they are only gently curved.
With regards to forward cant in the hilt you were talking about, I noticed a similar design in an antique machete/hanger made by Collins that I have (a very pretty piece with a cockerel head in the hilt with red glass beads for eyes).
Man I'm loving those... All of them really... I want all of those you just showed us.
The jien.. and the dao... I think that's the types. I gotta try and remember
This was great thanks
I have seen many youtubers get sponspored by raid shadow legends, but you really caught me off guard with that one I must say XD; it's sort of a meme at this point.
That being said, thank you for this video; I was wondering about Chinese swords for a couple of days and your video was just what I needed.
So in the Ming dynasty, the Japanese mainly traded their swords with the Chinese for silk, porcelain and other goods. I remember there’s an account recorded that during Ming dynasty’s Chenghua emperor’s reign alone Japanese traded and gifted over 200 thousand swords with the Chinese court. There were also Chinese poems praising the quality of Japanese swords from the Ming dynasty.
Chinese looked down on warriors and neglected martial arts in favour of civil arts compared to Han-Tang periods Chinese during which ordinary man would normally carry a sword in the Han dynasty. This is probably why Chinese sword making technology even regressed during this period because there’s simply not enough demand for it to make room for innovation.
I AM VERY EXCITED FOR YOU TO TALK ABOUT 2H DAO AND POLEARM DAO
If I remember correctly, some Jianshu practitioners say that there are multiple ways to hold a jian and the hilt/grip of those jians at that time were made relatively longer than usual one-handed swords for that reason (at least that's one of the reasons)
Drinking game: every time Matt says for a future video 😁❤️😁
The dao is very similar to the German messer. And the Japanese one is similar to a cavalry saber.
13th and 14th century would be Song/Yuan Dynasty more than Ming. And Song dynasty jians were pretty different than Ming dynasty jians. Song era jians are some of my favorite Chinese swords. Yuan was the Mongol dynasty so the preferred weapons from that was...well Mongol weapons. There was a period where both the Song and Yuan existed...but the Yuan was around until pretty much the end of the 1360s or start of 1370s (most accepted is 1368, but there was some remanents for a few years after that)...so Ming is more of a 15th+ centaury thing. So to say that Ming era weapons is the entire medieval era in China is very much swrong.
thank you for another great video and please more vids on Chinese weapons as they aren't very common
That is a very striking green. I like it.
It would be great to see Peter Dekker on the channel! Also it would be interesting to see a conversation with Prof Paul Bowman of martial arts studies
Thank you.
Two counterpoints: I would argue that the longer grip on jian (and to some degree on some dao) is because of the grip used. Jian in this period are held in more of a handshake-like grip, where the longer grip is useful--think how sideswords and rapiers, which also use handshake-like grips due to fingering the guard, have a longer "hilt" due to the inclusion of the ricasso. This would also be the case on some dao, such as the woyaodao, where the curve of the handle also lends it to such use. Also, as you pointed out with the conservative sword design, it may also partially be a carry-over from the longer-hilted Han-style jian.
As for the blade shape of the woyaodao, while you aren't incorrect on it taking inspiration from Japanese swords, since the blade geometry of Japanese swords is an evolution of the original shape of Han-styled dao, it's more like China re-importing their own design, or modifying an older style based on inspiration from the Japanese.
It's different not just the blade geometry( which there exists more than one on Japanese swords), but also the forging techniques, folding patterns, edge geometry, blade shape, hardening and so on would be different.
Having little in common with earlier swords.
Check out:"old or new? The Miaodao and Invention in Chinese Martial Arts"
Hey Matt, epic video! I have been reading about the Dadao sword the last two days, you have great timing, lol! If possible in your two-handed video, can you cover the Dadao. It's a peasants or revolutionaries weapon. It has so much beautiful to it, for such a simple weapon.
Thanks Matt you have a wonderful day!
Matt, here's hoping you'll share your views on how the Miao Dao feels when used single handed. Thanks!
I think the cupped guard is a featured designed to increase the mechanical strength and rigidity when receiving a blade strike. Less likely to collapse or bend, by simple engineering design. It would also create a thin ring to catch and hold the opponents blade….a better chance to trap it as it sinks into the thin ring of upturned metal. The opposite design of a deflecting guard. It would also increase the chances of snapping the opponent’s blade as it takes the hit on a very small, hard and somewhat sharp edged piece of metal. I like it as a design feature…it’s practical and may offer some advantages for no effort
Nihonto (Japanese swords) have round-ish tsuba from extremely early, since before nihonto were curved. They seem to have imported blades from China, but chokuto (early nihonto) mountings, especially the guards, are very unique. The Met has a collection of ancient chokuto from Japanese prehistory circa 500, and most have round tsuba. At this time, blades are straight like a jian's, even when single-edged, and they have "pommels" more like a jian's pommel than like a kashira. I don't think anyone would pick them out in a line-up as ancestral to katana. But even then, those ancient swords still had round tsuba. The tsuba seem to have been smaller at first, but grew over time, much like crossguards did in Europe. So actually, the distinctive round tsuba of the nihonto predates the distinctive blade curvature, hamon, and overall the traditional forging and quenching process familiar to us. At this time, most Chinese single-edged swords (dao and others) that I'm aware of have diminutive guards or none at all. Even later, in the Tang, dao still have crossguards much like jian have. I think the earliest round guards with size comparable to the tsuba are from the Song, though if we assume most swords were lost to time, maybe it's fair to estimate they arose earlier, such as in the Jin. Still, it's much later than in Japan.
I imagine this was an instance of convergent evolution, because contact between China and Japan was much less frequent and less voluminous in this period than in the earlier centuries, in which China seems never to have used round guards. Korea had much more contact with Japan than China did, but to the best of my knowledge, round guards don't start showing up in the Korean peninsula until the Joseon, the golden age of Korean swordsmanship. And I expect when culture travels from Japan to China, it travels fastest through Korea, to Manchuria, Liaodong, and toward Beijing. When the Yuan first invaded Japan, they invaded from the coast of Korea. There are remnants in Korea of a language related to ancient Japanese that was spoken on the peninsula at some point in the first few centuries AD, before being overtaken by Korean languages. The Korea Strait reminds me a bit of the English Channel, connecting an island civilization with the mainland. It's a "path of least resistance" for cultural innovations - like the tsuba, or indeed like the ancient Yayoi people themselves who came from Korea and settled (some would say conquered) Japan.
So if the tsuba was copied in China, I suspect it would have been copied in Korea first. Especially given that Korea did not have an autochthonous swordsmithing tradition to stubbornly cling to, having already used and copied Northern Chinese and proto-Manchurian swords for many centuries. But we don't see the tsuba copied in Korea until much later, and we can clearly identify it as derivative, because the entire Japanese sword is copied in Korea almost in its entirety, appearing suddenly and fully-formed, without any of the intermediate steps seen in Japanese swords from the 6th to the 13th centuries. That said, one (very speculative) point in favor of the derivative hypothesis is that the later round-guarded dao are found earlier in Northern China than in the South, which would be consistent with the innovation having traveled from Japan, i.e. through the Korean route I mentioned above.
You should really catch up with David Thatcher and do a talk about Japanese Armor. It's a fun, fun subject. Thanks for the Info, Matt.
If I remember correctly 'dao' means 'knife', and the saber was originally called Da-Dao (big knife) before the 1st syllable got dropped once different classifications of dadao were developed. Interesting how it is almost linguistically identical to Langmesser -long knife- while having similar hilt proportions and blades
finally the Miao Dao silver swallow will get its spot light..my favorite sword
Very interesting. Will you be doing a review of the White Serpent you show in this video? If not, do you think it matches the quality of other LK Chen jians you have covered? Thank you for all your quality content.
I’m not a Chinese martial arts practitioner but I have heard somewhere the Chinese swords have longer grips so they support a wider range of sword grips while maintaining a full grip on them. For example having the option to place the thump along the back of the grip and having a more outstretched palm on the grip. Some what similar to a Filipino knife grip but with the thumb being behind the guard.
Who needs fantasy swords in movies when there is such a variety of super-cool real sword designs to choose from, thus lending a certent authenticity to the narrative ?
Concerning your speculation about the relationship between Japan and the disc guard, you reviewed a product by LK Chen (which I can't find on their website right now) called the Tang Frontier Dao. You and LK Chen both agree that during this time, swords forged in China were often sold in arms deals to various interests in Japan, some of which ended up in the armories of fortress monasteries which kept excellent care of them, even for nearly a thousand years. The example which LK Chen manufactured was a one-to-one replica of a sword sourced from a Japanese monastery that was confirmed to be originally manufactured in China, and it had a disc guard. The real question of the day is: was the sword manufactured and sold to the customer with a disc guard, or was it retrofitted over the years to have a disc guard according to Japanese standards? I'm no expert, so I can't say for sure, but maybe it was developed independently in both industries, or the innovation was seen as so clever that the next party immediately copied and implemented the idea, which makes the discussion even messier.
Disc guards were already around in Japan before the Tang Dynasty, the guard on that replica sword is also not a disc guard it's too small. ask for that particular blade I'm guessing but I don't think you'll find it there currently maybe because LK don't think it's reliable For tang era swords. The problem here is most of the items concerning Tang from that monastery are not actually from tang 95% would have actually been made in Japan and even some items come from somewhere else, it also doesn't help that some actually were created in later periods for example I do know the fittings on that sword(and others) are from meiji period.( the blade's probably from a later period too)
The problem with tang swords is a lot of Makers take more cues from Japanese swords instead from actual swords during Tang making it kind of hard topic to research( I'm not saying LK is trying to do that).
I think this video goes over it, it's in Chinese tho.
科普：一本正经说唐刀！
There's a other video and one English article that go over this I can try to find them if you like.
@@eagle162 most of the Tang swords today seem to have been based off of Japanese examples for sure, there’s even some debate among Chinese scholars on the accuracy of modern replicas - since the likes of local Tang and Khitan/northern dynastic swords may have used fittings with different aesthetics
@@adenyang4398 I am not so sure about the disc guard, but some modern replica of the Tang Dao was curved for some reason . I believed LK chen made the replica and said that it was based on the original historically. However, one of the reviewers couldn't find any reliable sources or any sources on it. The original Tang Dao was not curved and straight, so I think LK chen was not historically correct.
good video
I never thought I'd say this but the White Serpent looks fantastic. It's the first replica of that design I've seen which looks genuinely impressive _and_ functional. Most of them are tacky, overweight garbage.
This is one of the prettier historical jian I have seen, and one of the most aesthetically pleasing (to me, anyways) reproductions I have seen. Home run product.
The White Serpent is by L.K. Chen, they normally make high quality replicas. Before them, I think that there was nobody who made high quality Chinese blades, maybe since the days of the Qing dynasty.
Regarding the sword's false edge, in China dated far earlier.. Tang dynasty swords did have false edge as well. In Japan it is called Moroha Zukuri. While the round sword guard in China probably also came much earlier from the Non Han dynasties that ruled north China plain... Probably the Japanese tsuba born out during the Tang dynasty period, where the sword guards of the Tang sword were simplified and Japanized, till the round or flat one born out from the customization... just a two cents thoughts of mine.. probably those with greater knowledge able to explain better
I really like the handle on that dao. Would index to your hand very well. Also I wonder if a blade side cup guard that was crenelated or serrated on the blade side would be more efficient as they'd catch enemy blades.
That Chinese/Japanese fusion sword is very interesting!
A Jian tend to be a government official side arm to protect themselves and to show their status while Dao are mainly used on the battle field
The evolution of weapons is interesting. Form follows function. The western and eastern Euro saber seems to be influenced more by the earlier nomad/steppe sabers than the later Ming/Qing sabers. Cavalry was used more and longer in eastern Euro than western. The Hungarians and Slavs adopted the composite recurve bow which stayed in service with cavalry longer in the east than the longbow did on foot in the west.
Good to hear your pronunciation improving! Wo should sound more like Waugh, as in Evelyn Waugh 😄
the false edge is not only for thrusting, is for clawing also.
Interesting how the handle curves forwards in the Wo Yao Dao instead of slightly backwards like actual Japanese katanas. Guess they only liked the blade.
The curvature of the grip and blade of Japanese swords did change quite a bit over time. If I remember correctly, the main sword used to be longer with a more drastic curve and a noticeably tilted grip. Later, the sword shrunk down the grip became straight and the blade became more straight too (transition of the tachi to the katana). Swords that predate the period looked more like the early dao, minus the fullers and the cupped guards.
There is also the Wodao that is 2 handed which is almost exactly like the katana. The Dao and Katana had a lot of back and forth history between Japan and China.
rounded tips makes it more effective at cutting near the tip.
The Xian are often well-suited for a saber grip. Is there any evidence for such use? -personally, I never liked the saber grip or the other grip where you put out your index finger. It just doesn't feel secure in my hand and it can hurt the fingers.
It's fascinating to think about how much blood the weapons spilled back in the day
The earliest disk guard appeared in China in late Tang (618 to 907 AD).
I've heared from some people in China (they were debating on some points you've made in this video) that the appearance of fullers on Chinese swords can actually be dated back to Song dynasty. I checked myself and do find some pictures of antique Song dao with a fuller on it (though I can't find the source). I've also seen an antique dao of Tang dynasty with a false edge, those Tang swords store in Japan do have some with this feature as well ( And as I remembered from one of your videos you've actually got a Tang sword with false edge from LK Chen). Perhaps these features are more likely to be independently developed rather than foreign influences (or even the inverse) like other swords at that time.
I am no expert but intuitively longer grip allows the alternate two-handed holding stances for more power when cutting is needed just like bastard sword. Although mostly used one-handed, when you need more power, when you need that extra grip, you would really hope that extra bit of handle is there. After all, 雁翎刀 is a mass manufactured standard weapon for the Ming army. A versatile weapon that can be both one-handed and two-handed reduces cost and the need to train and equip the army with two types of weapon which is problematic on economy and supply as the whole supply process may take years. If in case a two-handed 刀 is actually needed, they can be even more specialized like real heavy cutter for cutting horse legs or long slicer for out-reaching katana sword but would definitely be manufactured in fewer numbers.
I always assumed the cup guard was to act as a rain cover for when it's sheathed. Same with the Jian.
I _really_ like that Japanese-inspired dao.
Interesting your point about the forward canted hilt adding a slight amount of reach and increasing "chopping power". I hadn't thought of it in those terms, I had only considered it to be a somewhat flawed design as the forward canted hilt naturally presents the blade to the target at a more parallel angle, therefore reducing the draw effect of the blade. Which I would have thought was the main reason for the use of curved swords in the first instance. The forward cant of the grip being therefore somewhat less effective than the opposite backward cant (like on a Katana perhaps) at inherent draw-cut abilities, but aesthetically exceptionally pleasing to the eye. That being the main reason for it's use on this type of weapon (???)
A scratch mark is left on the katana after some cutting through hard objects. The mark shows there is very small among of draw or dragging movement. Yes, there is a draw move as the crescent curve blade draws through the target. The benefit is small. The pistol handle assist the blade hitting the target in a chop first, aiming to disable sooner than the crescent blade shape. It is down to personal choice and requirement of the style or ryu. The student rarely has a choice.
@@MtRevDr The amount of draw that a blade imparts on a target may be small, but a small amount is all it takes to give the benefit of a draw cut. Placing a knife on the skin of a tomato and cutting directly downwards, the blade will often be stopped by the tomato skin. But just a small amount of pressure, pushing either forwards or backwards on the knife will be enough to break the skin on the tomato with the microscopic serrations on even a sharp knife, and the knife will then have no trouble passing through the skin.
@@alexanderguesthistorical7842 - If that small bit is good for you; then, it is good for you.
For mat cutting, both straight Chinese blade and Japanese katana can cut through 2-3 tatami without visible difference.
A Japanese school showed off chopping a piece of paper clean with a small sword.
I then came along with straight paper chopping test for blade sharpness. Another level of sharpness is shown.
The curved blade is brought a bit closer to the body of the user when the draw cut is exercised. The body moves with the blade. It is just natural. If there is limitation it is a limitation of the body as well. A person only push so far. katana is pleasing to the eye of the beholder. There are subtleties of the curve(sori) in its positioning(eg: tachi before Muromarchi period has great curvature near the tang), curvature and broadness of each part(some part can be broader, such as fumbari of shinshinto) of the blade. What some find beautiful is not so beautiful for others. The straight handle Chinese miao dao has another kind of beauty.
@@MtRevDr Indeed. The effect is still there even if under those circumstances it is not appreciable.
On the cup/disc guard and if it came from Japan or vice or versa, you might enjoy “Ancient Chinese Weapons ~ A Collection of Pictures,” (by Cheng, Dong and Zhong, Shao-Yi) which is a survey or statues, and pictures and archeology. In it, I think you’ll find the disc going back to at least Song times (960 ~1279). In the video you mention the Japanese “came before” based on sources you had. Perhaps this’ll help extend those sources. Additionally, replicas of antiques have weaknesses, namely we can only replicate what surveyed rust, right? Art sources expand sources in that way too. Enjoy!
I seem to remember Scott Rodell of the Great Diver Taoist Centre YT channel stating in one of his Jian videos, that one of the Emperors dictated that all military weapons had to be of standard patterns, which were described in documents. This presumably is why there is still such uniformity in Chinese sword types (???)
There are always many kinds of swords. The sword becomes many things as the swordsman reaches sublimation. A few years ago I met a Chinese martial artist holding a tree branch in his hand while wearing a martial art costume. With that stance he is telling spectators he has reached a sublimed level when any branch or leaf in his hand can be used as a sword or gim. And what can any emperor stipulate the format and shape of a leaf or a branch??
@@MtRevDr I was just responding to one of Matt's comments in the video that there are two basic types of sword in China - Jian and Dao. I was just pointing out that according to Scott Rodell in one of his Jian videos (can't remember which one), one of the Chinese Emperors made up a pattern book, which described all the different types of weapons in the Chinese court and military, with descriptions and pictures of what each weapon should be like. So presumably one could get fined or prosecuted, back then, if your weapon was not of "regulation pattern". It could well have been that this Pattern Book was so pervasive throughout Chinese culture and history, and had such a long lasting effect, that swords types in China have, even now, a high degree of conformity to standard shapes, designs and patterns. Therefore the Jian and the Dao are distinct from one another and are easily recognised as such. In a way that something like, say, a Spadroon is sometimes indistinguishable from a Smallsword, (for example) in the West. Which is the point of what Matt was saying.
@@alexanderguesthistorical7842 in china , vietnam , korea , japan : sword = double edge , Dao = double edge . it just simple as that .
Hi ..I'm looking for parts for a wilkinson commemorative sword made for the 1967 olympic games in Montreal, Canada.
My sword was in a fire so needs wood handle and couple other parts.would you know where to find these parts?
I hope that one day, Matt will be sponsored by SuperDry.
I heard round points are just usage wear, so it used to be pointy, and because of usage, it became round in the end.
That jian is so gorgeous 😭❤️ Definitely suits the 'gentleman's sword' archetype.
24:50 -> isn`t the "cupping" added for increased strenght of the handguard? so it doesnt bend out of shape after particularly powerfull blow... thats my 2cents... anyway, great vid
I would genuinely love to know how many times “we’ll address this in a future video” videos have been made and how many get lost along the way.
Excellent analysis as always. A couple of tidbits that may be informative.
1. While you are correct that the jian has (largely) been removed from the battlefield, it is not entirely correct to say that it is exclusively an aristocrat's weapon. Civilian use of the jian remains popular throughout the history of China. Even for people who are not educated or of high status. There are quite a number of jians of this period where the functional properties of the weapon is perfectly sound, but lacks the ornaments and decoration you find in most jians today.
2. In spite of what most people keep saying, if you tally that actual techniques of the taolu practiced by Chinese martial artists, you will find that the jian is more of a cutting weapon than a thrusting one. Average taolu has a 1:3 to even 1:4 thrust to cut ratio. But the key difference is that the majority of cuts are designed to be shallow cuts, rather than deep ones.
3. The curvature of the dao's guard has an additional function to allow for the pinky to have a better grip when the blade impacts an object. This gives the user a stronger hold when using it.
4. The basin design of the dao guard has more to do with reinforcing it due to the method it is used. Proper use of the dao does imply using it trap a spear shaft between the blade, the guard and your body in some way. So reinforcing the guard in this way allows for a more duration guard, but with only minor increase in cost.
Wushu forms do not say much about the original martial usage of the jian. Chinese martial arts did not form in a formal sense until the modern period by which the jian had long ago ceased to undergo any evolution. Originally, they were battlefield weapons intended for use against various forms of armor and were used with shields. Wushu forms (not a martial art, but a modern performance art/sport) are based on fighting techniques which themselves only began to be codified and formally trained in the modern period many centuries after the original context of the jian, by which time battlefield armor and shields had decreased. This can be seen in the Wushu forms themselves which show the remains of unarmored and unshielded fighting more useful for individual civilians than armored soldiers fighting in formation. Thus, the precise ratio of cuts and thrusts in Wushu forms tells us next to nothing about how the jian was originally intended to be utilized when it was first designed and used.
Similarly, I would not ask a modern European sport fencer how the historical rapier was used, so please do not take this as some kind of cultural insult. I would put Wushu and Western-style sport fencing in a similar category. They are both highly abstracted sport forms that are greatly removed from the original martial usage of their respective weapons, though Wushu adds a degree of performance art/dance which sport fencing lacks. For an example of what I mean, the ratio of cuts to thrusts in sport-style rapier fencing is certainly different than what would have been seen on the battlefields and dueling grounds of previous centuries.
@@jameswoodard4304 Let us discount the performance-oriented stuff that the PRC has been putting out for the last 50 years for this issue.
Mentions of Taolu has been documented from since at least the mid-early Qing dynasty. While I can appreciate your suspicion of verbal traditions, it none the less does talk about some groups of taolu being formalized during the mid-early Ming era. So it is incorrect to say that Chinese martial arts was not codified until the modern (post imperial) age.
It is a fundamental mistake to consider military usage as being somehow the measure by which to understand the jian. As you yourself said, unarmoured combat among civilians were more useful so it is only natural for civilian martial arts of all forms to have evolved for that specific environment. Indeed, the jian that has been shown here, the more slender design are civilian swords, not the battlefield swords that were much broader. The civilian designed taolu, therefore is actually the exact way by which to understand how this civilian designed sword is supposed to be used. In fact, given that military jian has basically gone extinct aside from a few primary (though not really relevant) sources, pretty much any discussion of military jian use is far more dubious than civilian/traditional martial arts discussions as there are far more guesswork involved.
So your analogy is faulty as its more like you're asking how a medieval broadsword is used by looking at rapiers. Aside from the PRC performance stuff, there is no such thing as "modernized" chinese martial arts.
@@Chigou just to add, even though many of the jian forms have been formalized only relatively recently, the constituent techniques and usage were not newly invented but passed down/evolved within living lineages. Together with the inate qualities of the sword design itself (nod to Shad), I think we still have a good approximation of how this weapon was used in its day. In fact, a main figure in the formalization of sword forms was Li Jinglin in the republican era; he was known as a formidable jian user who loved to spar, that should give some credence to the jian techniques as we know today.
@@zzajizz I do not believe that I would agree to say that Li Jinglin should be credited for formalizing "sword forms". Rather, he only really formalized the two-person Wudang Duijian. While significant, is really a drop in the ocean regarding how many jian taolus there are out there. Indeed, all of the single practice wudangjian taolus (not related to the PRC stuff) were developed by other people.
While I know you didn't say this, but I think I should point out the fallacy to state that "most" or even "all" taolu were developed recently. The fact that China does not have a tradition to document when each taolu was made cannot be interpreted as being 'modern'. The problem is that for all the taolu that we know when/who developed were all modern because that documentation process only started in the modern age. It is a fundamental mistake to thereby label all taolu as modern.
@@Chigou Li Jinglin definitely should not be credited for formalizing the sword forms but I believe his influence was significant enough to be mentioned. As for the jian taolu’s, I believe it is correct to say that they have been formalized relatively late (which by my own reckoning would include the latter half of the Qing period), but I am aware they were developed earlier, perhaps in the middle/late Ming period.
The form I practice is said to have been largely unchanged for 200+ years, which I find easy enough to believe; even then I’m confident the origins of the techniques in the form were from the late Ming or earlier.
@scholagladiatoria to elaborate on the Disk Guard. It is very likely that they first appeared in China when a certain General was tasked with repelling the coastal attacks of mostly Japanese pirates, who were known to use the Nodachi. Sources allegedly attribute the creation of the Miao Dao to the Chinese General Qi Jiguang, who adapted the Nodachi to be lighter and straighter since he "had no intention of fighting the Japanese at their own game", I believe to complement their more nimble style of martial arts. That being said, it is highly ironic that both Korea and Japan seeked out Chinese bladesmiths because their metallurgical skills were simply superior.
The gim(?) jian(?) guard kind of reminds me of some Viking era swords. That is the general shape and lack of hand protection.
Really thougt that you were sponsored by superdry! 😂👌
Hi Matt. I wish you would do some episodes about technology developments and new production efficiencies, availability of quality steel, etc. My understanding is that the Romans were mass producing weapons-grade steel. Is that true? I can’t see it taking a long time to produce a few thousand 19th century military sabres. I’d appreciate getting a better feel for how arms production evolved and affected contemporary side arms. : )
Ming dynasty swords got me acting unwise