The Reason American Students Get Held Back and British Students Don’t
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- Luke and I sit down for a one take video chatting about UK vs US methods of educating students.
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I feel as though holding students back is essentially punishing them for not testing well. I think tests should be used to figure out which students require more resources and attention, rather than as an arbitrary goal that they need to reach in order to progress with their lives. Giving learning support or extra help is a better way of ensuring that a student is up to the required level than just having them do the same thing twice, in my view.
Also math tests where there are non calculator portions and you can't have notes for formulas is bs.
Let's be honest one of the big reasons why kids fail tests in America is because they act like we aren't smart enough to use all the resources we should have available.
@@DeathProductions200 when I was in high school and the justification for a maths non-calculator was "you won't always have a calculator in your pocket". We sure showed them
This exactly, it just means the child needs a different learning method, not do the same learning method again 'cause clearly it's not benefitting the child!
100% agree with this, the trouble is what to do as an educator when the resources to give a child specialised help or extra support just aren't there?
@@danh4698 totally agree, I think the biggest problem is how underfunded the state education system is. Obviously there's no perfect answer, I personally think for a lot of students forcing them to do the same year twice isn't going to help them learn much. Sets aren't much better but it at least helps educators broadly categorise the students who need more help from the ones who are doing well without it. It'll be different for every student though, there isn't going to be a perfect, one size fits all solution sadly.
Luke created such a well rounded argument and I completely agree, classes being in sets allows for students to be learning at an appropriate level but removes The social difficulties of being held back in the UK it is hard to tell what is it each person is in unless you are in the same class and so there is less chance of being picked on for being lower ability
That's true, especially as you can be in different sets for different things.
I went to multiple different secondary schools because of family issues and the set system always held me back. I have Aspergers, so while I wasn't particularly well behaved I was probably a bit faster at learning than a lot of people, yet I almost always ended up in mid or lower sets just cause they assumed that of me. Only a few times the teachers realised I was in the wrong set and moved me up but even then it was such a massive shock to the system because it skipped up multiple levels and it left me kinda lost since I didn't really know what everyone else had already learned. I feel like personally, as much as I really don't like their system, the American system would have capitalised on my gifts more than the British one. Now I'm relying on self teaching to cover a lot of the more complex topics I feel I should already know and damn. It's hard. Not the learning, but identifying what to learn and what resources to use that are appropriate.
I personally would say the schooling system failed me in multiple ways.
More than I'll explain here. I also am aware that I'm an edge case but, there's a lot of edge cases out there.
Halfway through my time in secondary school my school decided to remove this it was simply ridiculous and average results across the year plummeted a lot of people who could have passed failed all because of this stupid decision
@@sidney2738 I remember that happening for year 7 to 9 in my secondary school ( I was already in 6 form I think- if not GCSE) and I remember a lot of parents asking on facebook groups for help with school subjects their children were struggling to keep up and didn't understnad their homework. I went to a welsh medium school and so none welsh speaking parents (which was most parents) found it particularly hard to help with homework and their children's learning.
@@dreinogolau my school did it through all the years but it was so ridiculous that some kids found the work too hard and some found it too easy because they weren’t sorted properly it just wasn’t fair on the kids who were smarter or the kids who werent
I'm a GCSE tutor, and so many of my students would absolutely struggle with being held back a year. Their confidence is already low in most instances because they've been referred for tutoring and/or are struggling with grades. So being held back would make them feel like even more of a "failure" (massive air quotes here).
And I also disagree with Evan about everyone being able to reach an A/A*. Even with every hour in the day dedicated to study (which would be super unhealthy, obviously), there are some students who just won't be able to achieve those high grades in a topic - and that's alright. I'm never going to get an A* in maths - it's just not something that I am good at. But that doesn't make me dumb. Same goes for people who struggle completely with school, or with other topics. And trying to reach that A* is just going to be stressful and frustrating - life's too short, and is about more than just grades. Let kids and teens have other things in their lives, e.g., hobbies, friends, and rest.
I agree, not all children can achieve an A/A*. So many factors affect learning and suggesting top grades are totally in reach for everyone (even with the caveats Evan gave) is a bit ignorant and a simplistic view of education.
Yes I also disagree with this. My husband is not academic at all and was in the bottom sets throughout school. He's definitely not dumb but I can see how his brain doesn't work in the way that school in the UK 'needed' it too. I studied Sociology and Education at Uni and found setting and streaming, and the 'summer baby phenomenon' in British education fascinating.
Absolutely! I was a fairly average student at high school...I was just terrible at studying, & retaining information (I was also a full year younger than most in my year as I went to primary school early...my primary teachers thought I was 'backward'... I was just young!). I left school with a couple of highers...& failed maths completely! However, I used what I had to start building things up, & as I matured my learning styles & studies improved significantly. I now have an Honours Degree, & a Masters degree. I completed another Master's module recently... & even now I learn differently (18 years since the last one!). On reflection, I'm not sure being held back would have changed my learning style when I was younger 🤔
also not everyone can get an A* in a subject not just cos it's not their thing but exams might not be their thing
I agree that not everyone can get an A in everything but I also don’t think that a student should have a goal chosen for them solely based on previous academic performance. I may be misunderstanding how the system works since I didn’t go to school in the uk but the way luke described it makes it sounds as though students are just put into a category and then taught information to help them reach a goal that the school already has for them and I don’t think that’s fair to students either. It shouldn’t be assumed that every student is able to get an A but it also shouldn’t be assumed that no student below a certain threshold can’t improve beyond a certain point.
When my daughter started primary school we were told by her teachers that she was gifted and working at a level that would be considered advanced for children the year group above her, but that the school did not support putting children ahead a year because it would be detrimental to her emotional and social development. They said school teaches more than the reading/writing/maths that she was advanced at. Instead she had a few short sessions a week where she either visited a class in the year above her for reading/writing or a smaller tutor group for kids her age who needed more challenging material.
When I was in secondary school I was in the top/highest set for languages and sciences but the intermediate set for maths. I would have been very frustrated had my weakness for maths stopped me progressing through school.
I had the same experience, As in all subjects but crafts and maths where I was average, but being in middle set in maths almost prevented me to get into A-levels.
Maths for me a compulsory subject but because I struggled enormouslý because I hadn't been taught certain things like probability... As my grades are not recognised in this country, certainly not from over 30 years ago, I did lGCSE maths as part of my access course: the topics I missed out being at middle set were the easiest and I ended helping my classmate!
My partner had a similar experience when he was at school. He was simultaneously super bright and had learning difficulties due to dyspraxia (e.g. he couldn't write legibly) so he had remedial handwriting classes and additional gifted & talented work to do while staying in his proper school year.
He actually did a GCSE before he'd even moved up to secondary school, but skipping several years was considered to be really bad for social development. And I'd probably agree with that decision, to be honest. Like, Ben Shapiro skipped several school years, and you can *really* tell he grew up as the pipsqueak know-it-all kid who everyone hated.
@@JoneseyBanana fr lmao that guy is insane
I was put up a year in primary school, and hated it. Bullied for being younger, missing my friends. Eventually, my class left for secondary school and I rejoined my 'former' class for the final year. It really felt like a step backwards and ultimately detrimental, both socially and academically. Regret it to this day, 35 years later! Though at the time, I didn't really care and was just glad to be back with my friends.
As someone who constantly gets far above average grades (and 147 IQ not that it means too much) and got a 99th percentile in the national college entrance exams, I am so thankful I never skipped grades. Emotional and social development is essential.
That is, unless the kid is gifted to the point that they are not getting ANY challenges whatsoever. This does not need advancement but a different educational system. If not, this will lead to developmental difficulties
I'm a teacher in the UK and I agree with Luke, his points about education being more than just exams/tests I think is very important.
This might be an unpopular opinion too but I disagree with Evan when he says everyone has the ability to get like an A/A* (8/9) - it's a very American way of thinking. I don't think every student can get an A/A* in everything AND THAT'S OKAY. It doesn't mean you should be thought less of in any way, it's just that subject isn't your strong point.
Putting students in sets really does mean that you can push that higher level understanding with your set 1 whilst other groups can focus on getting the core things right without feeling overwhelmed with those extra details that are vital for getting the top grade. I find personally that you get less disruptive behaviour too because everyone is going for their achievable best. Why keep pushing a student whose best is a C with A* stuff and make them resent the process of learning and not want to do anything at all?
I'm not saying don't encourage students for their best, because we should always always do that, and sometimes your best in a subject is an A/A* and sometimes it's a C. Either way, as a teacher, I am so so proud if you tried your best and I will celebrate that with you.
I think there should be a middle ground between what the US and UK do for schooling
Definitely with you on not everyone having the ability to get top marks. I would never be able to get A's in everything as due to anxiety I don't test well. Holding me back would have done nothing except ruin my confidence as it wasn't the learning material I struggled with. New ways to test people that struggle with the GCSE format could have been life changing though.
@@brandonhowell5096 the Irish system is the middle ground. "Sets" don't exist here at all, although you can choose between different levels (higher level, ordinary level or in some cases, foundation level) to take state exams like the JC (middle school) and LC (high school). But that's entirely up to the student, not the school. There can be ability-led class differentiation where one class teaches higher level and the other ordinary level, but that only happens if the school lacks the funding and resources to put everyone (regardless of ability) into the higher level class (which is sadly very common given the lack of funding). The school could demand that you get a C in higher level for the Junior Cert to take higher level at Leaving Cert in those cases, as they may not have the time and resources to help students struggling through higher level. Although if the parents make a big enough stink about it, even that doesn't matter as the schools don't want conflict. You can also transition between the levels very fluidly: it's very common for students to try out higher level and if they are not up to it, they drop to ordinary level. And even vice-versa in rare cases.
In most cases though, because ordinary level courses tend to be similar to higher level (just easier) most subjects have students of all abilities in the same classroom with the exceptions of Maths, Irish, foreign languages and maybe English.
Also, getting held back is pretty much unheard of, as is skipping a grade. The only people I could think of of having this happen is for people with learning disabilities if their parents agreed to it. That being said, there's very little, if any, testing in primary school here and in secondary school, it's seen as more the student's responsibility to prepare for the state exams (Junior Cert and then Leaving Cert).
I think I agree. I don't know if it is technically true that not everyone can get A/A* in everything but I don't think they can while still maintaining some level of decent mental health. I think it can almost be harmful to think that everyone can get an A/A* in everything. I always remember something our R.E teachers told us after our first GCSE exam, they were reminding us that D is still a grade and being below C isn't a fail etc. etc. I knew people in secondary school who has additional learning needs who weren't going to get an A/A* or even a C in certain subjects and it was still important to celebrate their successes because a D for example, was a huge success for them. They still came a massively long way.
I completely agree - I definitely feel Evan was speaking from a position of extreme academic privilege where he doesn't even understand the existence of alternate academic abilities. It's extremely ableist to suggest everyone could achieve the highest grades if only they tried harder.
I agree with Luke regarding not holding kids back. School is about so much more than learning facts and getting good test scores. For example, I test horribly due to anxiety, but I still understand a lot. As a kid, if I had gotten held back one year and separated from my friends, that would probably have done more harm than good. I think having to hold a kid back reflects on the teacher/school system and not the kid, IMO.
I am not sure that they would hold a kid back just bc of test scores tho. The kids that I have seen held back are ones constantly needed more help throughout the year than the average student. These kids are usually ones that are typically not on the standard of emotional learning either. Obviously this raises the concern of kids with disablities, but from what I seen any type of learning disabilty is taken in account too. I think it is more of an overall performance thing instead of test, but tests are a big part of it too. Idk that is what I have seen at least
I agree wityh you Ingrid, I test so badly I during one exam I had to double check I had even spelt my name correctly because I was that nervous. I am not what most schools would call remedial but I don't have the number of expected C+ results that teachers expected, simply because of the nerves felt. I don't think I would ever have been held back but if I was I wouldn't have done well with it. As I have a lack of confidence anyway and it takes me ages to even get what would be called a standard level of confidence.
Children that are struggling should be given extra support, not ostracised and shamed by being held back.
Yes, fully agreed. Holding back should be a last resort. I performed abominably on tests, but I wasn't held back. Quite a few bits of support were sent my way, but finally I had to go to a boarding school - good for me in every way except grades! Hey ho. No, it's hard to think that holding back is anything other than a punishment for bad testing. Only knew one person held back, that was a lass called Nikki Earnshaw, but that was because she was in the hinterland between years, not because she was struggling. As I said, should only be used as a last resort.
Except, if some kids fail badly (whatever the reason is) and go through, then still fail the next year because they are far behind, but still go through, etc etc, they will be less confident as time goes by, and feel dumb. At some point they have to be given another chance to understand what they didn’t previously. For instance, if one can’t count, how can you expect them to learn how to add, substract etc. As the subjects get harder, they will be further and further behind. 🤷🏻♀️
“everyone has the potential to get an A/A*”
from a Maths Teacher in Rotherham this is a very interesting discussion to hear.
Unfortunately some students i teach could have 10/15 hours of maths every week and they would, if anything, resent the school/teacher as they wouldn’t be able to do the lessons they enjoy like tech/humanities/arts/sports. In the whole populous of pupils, only a small minority of students actually have a love and drive to want to learn like you do Evan.
It also sounds different to me as an American because our grading system is so different. Here, anyone who studies and goes to class can get an A, but in the UK an A is really hard to get and it’s only possible if you’re super smart or dedicated from what I’ve heard.
@@emmanarotzky6565 it might be true that it’s harder to get an A in the uk but even in the us studying and going to class are not necessarily enough to guarantee an A. I used to spend hours on homework every night when I was in school and still struggled to pass a lot of my classes. Even when I was in 1st grade I often found myself crying at the kitchen table out of stress and frustration because I had been doing homework for hours and didn’t seem to be getting anywhere. Nights like these became more frequent as I got older and it eventually did impact my grades quite heavily. There were many times that I had to work very hard just to get a D.
@@lydia3460 I completely agree with you on this one, no matter how hard I worked at school or studying at home I could never seem to do well in my exams or get the grades I was expected to get. I really believe that exams are a terribly outdated and a horrible way to test our 'intelligence' at school. I suffer horribly with my mental health and have done since I was little which caused me to have a non existent short term or long term memory which in turn, made exams impossible for me, and made me feel as though I wasn't good or smart enough at school all the way through to scraping through a graduation at university! I don't think being given an extra year or being held back a year would have helped the situation at all!
I'd say it's not about the drive to "learn" because everyone has their own different likes and dislikes. Just because you don't enjoy maths doesn't mean they don't want to learn yknow
@@emmanarotzky6565 thats more at university level, at high school level it is very possible if you apply your self. but to say 'anyone is able' doesnt take into account peoples limitations. i think its actually quiet ignornant to assume if someone doesnt get an A its because they didnt try hard enough, because ive seen first hand thats not the case, while some students just sail by on As without revising. luck of the draw sometimes
One major issue I have with a child being held back is the teacher. I assume they have the same teacher again, and sometimes the way a teacher teaches doesn’t click with their students. How is a second year of being held back going to help long-term?
Sure you can teach someone that 9*6=54 but that’s different to them understanding what’s happening.
Yeah, if you have the same teacher you probably won’t do any better than you did last year unless it’s just a readiness issue.
Usually in Virginia in the US they would be assigned a new teacher in elementary. As for middle or high school it’s based on the subject as each is taught by a different teacher. So unless the subject is rare you would get a different teacher. Also holding back is always the last resort.
Someone here already said it but in my state, Florida, if you are held back, it is required that you have a different teacher. Also, if you are held back and are doing well, you can basically test out of that and go back to the year your are supposed to be in at some point down the line. There are a lot of options to get students back on track and help them better learn.
When I got held back, I got a different teacher. I don't know if it's like that for all schools in America or not though.
I don't remember getting officially tested every year going through school, only at SATs, GCSEs and A Levels (and now uni lmao). Evan is really hyping up getting held back, but with the set system doing poorly one year won't ruin you for the rest of your education, unlike telling a child they're too dumb to get to be with their friends.
I agree. Evan does seem to be hyping getting held back up here. I think because he was a high achiever he see's it in a positive light to encourage his development, but i anticipate if someone is being held back they don't see it so positively. Holding primary school children back? punishing children in regards to their reading. Surely there needs to be more individual help. Reading is so important but you want children to like it to improve not hate it because its holding them back. I also don't subscribe to the fact that 'everyone can get A's' - no Evan i don't think they can. I was in mid-top set and I once went to the bottom set class to take something and while we were doing trigonometry and algebra, they were still on addition/division on the board. I don't believe that class could do what we were doing and to push that on them when it was out of their ability would just cause them to not achieve at all IMO.
Fr, plus if you are held back a year, theres nothing you can do. But if you are moved down a set, you are then encouraged to move up again to be with your previous class. It happened to my friend, she went from the bottom set to top set in a few months.
I think there’s an official test at the end of each key stage in the uk. I might be wrong tho
@@ded_plant KS1 SATS (Y2) scrapped 2017, KS2 SATS (Y6), KS3 SATS (Y9) GCSE (Y10/11), AS/A Level (Y12-13), BTEC multiple levels (Y10-Y13).
Yeah u have smaller tests but nothing substantial. Also 70% is a D in the US! That’s good over here
In my school in Scotland, we did sets but if we failed a class - we wouldn’t be held back but we would be given the option to repeat that specific class in the next year. I repeated maths twice but remained in my year. I find that so much better
I did that in my final year I failed a class the year before and repeated that specific class but not the whole year
Same in Australia. Sort of. In your last year of high school you were allowed to fail one class and still graduate. Kind of like a bit of a safety net, really.
But for the rest of the grades it was the same sort of deal. If you failed one class or even two classes, you could just repeat those specific classes and remain in your year. I repeated my grade 9 health class (mostly because I was awful to my poor teacher lol) but remained in my year level.
Although parents can opt to get you to repeat a year. My high school friend ignored warnings from her parents to improve her grades and they transferred her to another school where she had to repeat year 11.
I think that's a lot better and a good solution. If a student fails one or two courses but pass all others, then they should repeat that course next year not the whole year (all courses/ones you did well in).
that sounds a lot better than having to repeat a year because of a single class you failed
That's how it worked in my US high school. We did it by credits, so if you failed a class, you could still pass the year.
So generally, there were 8 periods: 7 classes and one lunch. Each class was 5 credits, and you needed 30 credits to move on to your second year, 60 for the next, 90, and then 120 to graduate.
Since we took 35 credits per year, you could fail one class and still have 30 credits and move up.
The one problem was science classes. Biology, chemistry, and physics were 6 credits each, taking one day of physical education (gym) to be a lab grade. So 6 credit science, 4 credit gym.
First year high schoolers generally didn't start off with Biology. They did a 5 credit general sciences class. They would start us off in Biology if we were in honors.
So, like, my sibling started off in honors Biology in highschool. But then failed that. He had 29/30 credits, and was technically held back. He was still able to do most of the year 2 things, but was still considered a year 1. He would then be able to pass 35 credits in year 2, to end up with 64/60 to pass year 2. He didn't, but could have. In the end, he did make it to at least 120 credits to graduate high school on time with his friends
I live in England, and when in year 9 it was rumoured that one of our classmates had been held back a year. People found out because her twin was in the year above. She was bullied a lot for this, so in that sense, I don't think holding people back works.
I agree in that sense, but sometimes man there's some people who genuinely couldnt tell you 2x5 in a-levels. I agree that it shouldnt be a common thing but if you are consistently getting 5% on all your exams then I think it should definitely be a consideration, not as a punishment but to make sure the kid is ready and knows the basics before advancing
@@Guyzap3 Completely see where you are coming from, I would just worry about the child's confidence. If they already struggle with the basics and then are held back, I could imagine many would loose whatever confidence they have.
@@Guyzap3 But then if 13 years of education can't teach you 2x5, i don't think 14 years will either
as far as i know holding people back happens most often:
a) in exam years e.g. if you do poorly in year 12, it’s worth holding you back rather than ruining your chances at university
b) if you’re forced to move schools and so, change exam boards/ miss a big chunk
c) if you move from a different country with a different system for placing you in years or a different school starting age etc.
also in terms of skipping years the uk gov started an initiative maybe 10 years ago that you shouldn’t push children past the curriculum for their own year, instead going into greater depth of what is theirs. however i was always working with the year above for maths along with some others in my because it allowed the teacher to spend more time with those struggling and didn’t leave us bored.
i don’t think the government realise how unrealistic that goal is, they really act like schools have unlimited time and resources
I'm in the UK and they hold back badly behaved kids between year 8 and year 9. They are then stuck in that year until they graduate. I never realised that other schools don't do this
a) I didn't go to 6th form, but If I'd done badly at my A-levels I'd have preferred to go to a college to resit them rather than do another year of secondary school.
c) I wish they'd done that with me, I lived in Scotland between ages 7 and 10, and I'm pretty sure I got moved forward a year because of my age, I think the cutoff dates must have been different because my friend was older than me but her birthday was in April (mine's in November). I really struggled academically while I lived in Scotland.
in the UK i would say if you do poorly at the end of high school/senior school then you are not the kind of person who would go to University. there are plenty of options for people who are not good academically.
@@mogs9999 I redid year 12 (with different subjects) and am now at a Russell Group university after obtaining some of the highest A Level grades in my year - lots of people don't achieve as well as they can at AS for many reasons (mine was undiagnosed ADHD and I took the wrong subjects). I am good academically and your statement is just ableist lol.
@@ItsMeEllenB I would say your case is most likely the minority , the point I was trying to make was more about the different types of people and the different types of skills we all have . I know people that are amazing at art or skilled manual work but didn't do well at school because they didn't cope with focus on maths, English and science at school. I didn't mean to cause any offence to you , especially as I have 2 children with Autism & ADHD.
Distressing that Evan's school only commited the resources to helping the kids who were already doing well, no wonder there's more instances of people being held back there.
Believe me, Evan was VERY lucky to be singled out for advanced study. Usually the LESS able a pupil is, the MORE help they get
I have dyslexia so struggled a lot in school, and even though we don’t get held back in the uk, I would have nightmares about being sent back to the previous year cause I wasn’t doing well enough. Even after I was no longer in school that was one of my brains go to stress dreams. It was the worst, most humiliating and shameful idea my brain could dream up. And if we did have that system then I would undoubtedly have been held back, and it would have utterly crushed me. Knowing how I was at that age I don’t know how I would have ever recovered
I came from a European country where we have to redo a year if we fail and I had many classmates through the years who had dyslexia, and non of them were held back because they were dyslexic. They get more time/they don’t mark the spelling in their tests, and also give them extra lessons where they learn study techniques to help them.
I'm in the US, and one of my nieces is dyslexic. She was never held back; they worked with her, gave her special training, and took the issue into account when assessing her each year. She's a senior in high school now and looking forward to graduating in a few months. :)
@@xzonia1 I'm very glad she is getting soo much support 💖. My dyslexia wasn't picked up until I was 8-9, by which time I had fallen way behind, and even then my parents had to move me to a new school cause my old one didn't believe dyslexia was real. Even after that the only support I got was a very bored and unengaged teaching assistant sitting next to me in class a few hours a week doing very little of use
@@devonesparkle626 I'm soo glad things are soo much better nowadays ^-^
@@WhichDoctor1 I'm sorry those in charge made school such a struggle for you. No one should have to go through all that to learn.
One thing to consider with the hold back vs tiered learning argument (US vs UK) is that people learn different things at different speeds. Just because somebody fails maths, doesn't mean they need to relearn everything in that year.
For example, I was always a top student for Maths, but I wasn't great with English. Instead of being held back due to my bad scores in English and having to sit through the same Maths I've already learned very well, they were able to put me in an upper group for Maths, but a moderate (thankfully not lower) group for English.
And at the same time, just because you're in a lower group for a subject, it doesn't rule out the option of moving you up (or down) a tier in the future. Being in a lower tier doesn't necessarily mean you're only ever going to fail. It just means the teachers can give you education more catered to your level, with an aim to push you up.
My husband had an undiagnosed learning issue and was held back in first grade. He never got over the anxiety it gave him about his mental capacity. And like most neuro-atypical people, he was really, really smart.
Aww look at these two nice British citizens
Being held back can occur in British schools if the child missed large parts of the year due to illness or probably other reasons. I've also known of foreign students being pushed back a year due to a difference in the level taught. Also being moved forward definitely has occurred before but I'm not sure if it was removed or not as I haven't heard about it for a long time.
Also being held back may also be less common at higher ages such as GCSE or A level years because the content required for the exams isn't that useful for most jobs so repeating a year to try again at analysing 20 poems wouldn't be of much use.
Being held back at a levels is way more common then in gcse years or earlier, because the grades matter so much more after sixth form, especially for people wanting to get into university
@@LunaEllis but they hold themselves back if that makes sense... like they aren't really "held back". Someone who got 3 C's and wanted 3B's might not be able to go to their first choice university but they will definitely be able to get into another university. They decide themselves to hold back a year which I wouldn't really call it "holding back"... because its just another attempt at taking the test really.
I got held back in Primary School (Year one) due to having a learning disability (Dyspraxia)
@@SarahTheTrekkie thats a learning disability... i'm talking about people who don't have learning disabilities and "hold back" because the reason being they fail a test or something
@@SarahTheTrekkie Did getting held back for it help your school situation at all? I hope that ended up being a positive experience rather than a frustrating one for you.
I’m with Luke, and in coming from a family of teachers I believe we shouldn’t hold kids back / make them repeat years. School is a really important part of social & personal development & deliberately separating children from their friends/teachers/routine at a key stage of physical & emotional development by telling them they aren’t good enough is like being punished twice over. If you struggle with maths but are doing well with everything else, then as Luke says, you’ll be in the lower ‘set’ for maths to make sure you achieve at least a C grade (you didn’t touch on this but it’s a key attainment target for all students as a C or above in English and maths is needed for most unis/jobs later). All students have individual strengths. I think ‘sets’ instead of holding children back is a more holistic way of viewing education, and also a more collectivist way of making sure all kids achieve a reasonable grade at school based on their capabilities.
it's always interesting for me to hear Evan's perspective on how things work in America because it's all really dependent on where in the US you grow up. My brother and cousin are only two weeks apart in age, but my cousin was in the grade/year below my brother because his state had a different boundary for age. In our state, your birthday can be in October and you still start the same grade as someone who's birthday is much earlier in the year.
@@mary-cate5994 I can imagine that being weird! I have a summer birthday so I graduated HS at 17 but was 18 when I started college. Growing up I always thought I was the "correct" age for every grade lmao but sooo many of my classmates turned 18 during senior year and I felt really young
Where I grew up it was the same - even extending into November where it was up to parents to decide! My brother's bday is 11/29 and they got to decide. They let him wait a year
Yup. That was the reason why my parents decided to held me back a year right before kindergarten, and I was still the same age as most of my class of 2016. And why my younger cousin is the youngest student in her class of 2022. Our birthdays are right next to each other.
Speaking as someone who is from the UK and was not held back. I have always struggled with Maths. In Secondary school, Year 8, I was put in the lower middle class. My school essentially had 6 classes. 2 upper classes for those that excelled. 2 middle classes for those that were fine. 2 lower middle classes that struggled, I think they worded it this way to minimize bullying and confidence crushing. I had the best Maths teacher I ever had that year. She really knew her subject. She encouraged questions, and after she explained a method, if you didn't get it, she would give you a different method. If she ran out of methods she would have you meet her at lunch time where she would give you a more one on one approach to help you understand it and see where you struggled. Because of this, at the beginning of Year 9, I was placed into the middle class and ended up with a GCSE Grade of C. 100% due to her teaching method.
In answer to your question, I don't think holding back a year would be helpful to the student, using my example, I got bad test scores because I didn't understand the process. if I was held back a year and taught the same thing I guarantee you I would still not have understood. I understood by having a teacher encourage questions and knowing multiple ways of explaining the method and alternate ways of getting the same answer. Not by being told that, as I know I would have seen it at the time, you are too stupid to go up a year with the rest of your friends.
As a secondary school Maths teacher (London), I believe that when students are put into sets, we as teachers are able to teach them to 'master' a specific topic - rather than rush through all the topics. Teaching differently based on the sets of students really helps with the way the student learns. And this is also a reason why being kept back a year doesn't apply to UK schools.
I agree. I think a good teacher won't limit children because of their set but by having them in ability sets you're not trying to have them keep up with others who are at the top of the year. I can only see that frustrating the children who are finding it more challenging because they can't keep up and understand the work due to the pace it is being given to them. And also frustrating the pupils who find maths easier because they have to wait for the rest of the class and the work is too easy.
Absolutely, UK college resit maths teacher here. Students that struggle with maths need to be taught in different ways than those that just pick it up easily. Some students will never reach a grade 4 let alone a grade 9, sad but true.
Agree. My daughter really struggles with maths but thanks to a good teacher in Y8 she was able to move up a set after sitting the end of year test. She starts Y10 in Sept and will be doing the foundation papers but feels more confident thanks to her teachers for her set that she can st least get a pass grade.
As a school teacher/librarian in the USA, we are pushed not to hold students back unless absolutely necessary and often students who really need to be held back aren’t. This is why many schools are struggling with testing and such because you have students who are at a 3rd grade level in reading and math trying to take and pass Algebra and Calculus. More and more we are seeing student graduate without the adequate skills to prepare them for college because of the social stigma of being “held back”. Colleges are adding more and more “catch up” classes to account for this, which is great for them because now it takes 5-6 years to graduate instead of 4 years so more money.
You can try interventions and everything as best as you can, but at a point, the students sometimes just need more time to grasp concepts and aren’t really given that opportunity due to being pushed through, which leads to them not grasping the higher concepts they are being taught, lowering their test scores even further until they just give up on even attempting. It is a never ending cycle that only causes harm to the student one way or another.
I agree with this^^ I am from the US but teach in Japan and I have students who definitely got lost in third or fourth grade and can't follow what's going on in 7th grade. Failing upwards is a real thing. Yes, some students aren't good test takers and there are students who aren't academic and can't average an A. HOWEVER, my impression was that students were only held back if they failed (closer to
This has been 100% true in my experience. At least in my area, retention is EXTREMELY uncommon. I've seen parents beg for it, and the most that happens is a few perfunctory weeks of summer school before they're shuffled along to the next grade. Administrators seem to think that teachers can merely "differentiate" their way out of massive and ever growing gaps in foundational skills. That rarely happens, though, and some students really do end up just "failing upward." They advance in grade level without mastering very basic skills only to hit a wall where the curriculum being taught is so far over their heads that they just give up. Though retention, particularly after 3rd grade, doesn't necessarily fix things either, I agree that something different is needed because the situation is already untenable and getting worse.
Having set classes seems so much more beneficial to me than being held back a year. Like, if someone is really good at Maths and not English, or vice versa, they can be top set in one subject and middle/bottom set in the other. In our school there was also a lot of moving between sets, so if you caught up you'd likely be bumped up a set, and if you needed more time with the basics, you might spend some time in a lower set. Also, if you didn't like a subject, sometimes a lower set was just more enjoyable. Even though I was decent at sports, getting moved up to top set in P.E. was the worst thing for me as a teen as I wasn't into sports in a serious way, and it was super stressful!
That would get real confusing real quick.
@@guyfierimtwi not as confusing as it sounds, it worked for us :)
Wow. Sets for PE? That's one subject in the US that doesn't have ability sets!
@@gemoftheocean tbh I don't know if it's super common for P.E. to be a set subject in the UK either. Though my school had sets in P.E., most of my friends from other schools didn't experience that, and found it weird when I brought it up!
I’m from the UK and knew a “genius boy” as Evan put it who skipped year 6 - that was because he went from a state primary to a private secondary where they didn’t take SATs into account, so it didn’t matter how old he was because he didn’t need to have passed the exam “you take when you’re eleven”
Also in sixth form, a few kids I knew repeated year 12 after doing not so well on their end of year mocks - I think that’s fairly common, because sixth form is largely about getting into uni where again, it doesn’t matter how old you are
Sixth form is a bit different because it’s not compulsory education. There’s a legal right to education up to the age of 16, but students in year 12 and 13 are expected to be there because they want to pass the tests, and to act/study accordingly. We had 4 or 5 (out of 160ish) who were kicked out after year 12. The school probably could have let them redo the year, but to be honest in those particular cases they wouldn’t have done any better.
@@matt4812 Since 2015 education is supposed to be compulsory to age 18 in the UK. The only exemption to this is if you start an apprenticeship at 16. However, the compulsory education doesn't have to be at a school - it can be home tutoring. I'm sure there are kids who fall through the gaps though.
@@davidjames3080 ah interesting - I left school in 2010, that change slipped by me, sorry! Luke is probably in roughly the same boat on that front.
UK SATs are so warped these days, I thought the original point was to assess the school and the teaching, not push that stress onto the kids.
@@laulau194 SATS aren't UK-wide. Scotland doesn't have anything like that so our teaching is far more about broad understanding than teaching to the test. Apart from actual subject exams at 16-18, the focus is on continual assessment. It's also why we don't have league tables
As a Canadian who was held back in 5th grade. My family and I had to fight the school board for 6 months before we got “approval”. But when it was brought to me as a possibility I said so I won’t feel stupid anymore. It was the best thing to happen to me as a confidence booster. And I never dealt with bullying for being held back.
I believe in Canada we also allow kids to skip forward a grade, or at least they did when I was a kid. I could have done that but my school board had a special enriched/gifted program so I did that instead, starting from grade 5 right through to grade 12.
as far as i know now, (currently in ontario high school) the only time you are allowed to start “skipping grades” or being “held back” is in high school. Where you can get a teacher to sign off on not needing a prerequisite for a class (there is a student in my grade 12 math class who is in grade 11, he was allowed to skip grade 9 math). however this is only for individual classes, your grade is always based on age.
at least that what i know, i could be wrong!
@@blitzy99 My sister was offered to skip a grade but my parents said no so she could stay with one of her only friends. Honestly, they were both bright and mature enough even at young ages to skip two grades. To put it in perspective, by first grade she was already at a 6th grade reading level and picked things up easily.
@@wombat4583 I was offered multiple times but my parents declined because I was already younger than all my classmates. I was ALWAYS board in school and often times forced to be a teacher to other students who weren’t understanding.
Even growing up in the states, I find 'holding back' confusing - if it didn't work the first time, why is just doing the same thing again seen as a solution rather than focusing on what's gone wrong for that child and putting in a personal plan. It felt more like a lazy threat used than anything.
A lot of this is inconsistent across the two countries as these conversations always are, but this has left out that in the UK, kids can be taught 'out of year' if it's shown to be in their best interest. The bar is just far higher than just failing academically, it has to be considered holistically and is generally done around reception age (most likely for summer born children who were born premature and/or have a significant disability which benefits from starting a year later).
And the idea everyone can get 8/9s is just full of shite even with grade inflation, and no, it's not just about home life. The different grading systems have different ways that make getting higher grades easier, but with the US and UK focusing on shoving more objectives in as young as possible (in some education discussions, the "American problem" has been used to refer to middle class parents wanting their kids to be doing more at younger ages, though this has now spread even though the data shows a lot of negatives), the only way to get that is if we follow the lead of countries that are stripping back required objectives and even then, erasing children with disabilities that affect learning and cognitive capabilities and just different drives is weird.
I think it's to do with the style of tests given as from what I have heard most US exams are multiple choice questions Testing more memory recall, while over here in the UK most exams are more essay and written based and is suppose to test a deeper understanding of the content thought there is some memory recall involved e.g. for GCSE history (studied between the ages of 15-16 and you sit a final year exam at the age of 16) the test has 4-5 questions which are solely essay based and requires more in depth knowledge of the content, (I assume this may also be similar in the US but from what I have heard from family is that it is mainly multiple choice.
And another thing to add is that when luke mentioned different sets he forgot to mention that the content taught and tested is different in the final year, so individuals in the lower sets would take a foundation test in which the highest attainable grade is a 5 (a low B) but it is easier than what the Higher sets would take called the higher paper which is harder where the highest grade achievable is an 9 (supposedly equivalent to an A**) so if you got 90/100 in a foundation paper that would = a B but the same mark in a higher paper would be =A**
However, the foundation and higher papers are only given in certain subjects like Maths, English, Science and Language e.g. French or Spanish.
When picking GCSEs based on you grades from the previous 3 years you will be allowed to pick certain subjects with Maths, English and Science being compulsory. Those with lower grades are limited to what they can pick if there is a entry requirement such as those who want to do triple science (more in depth science) need to be achieving a minimum of a B before the enter GCSEs.
They have begun teaching most things a year earlier. We did do an extra year of preschool. He was ahead academically at that time but he was way behind in self regulation. Seriously off the expectation and real data for 1st grade math but now only bottom 21% for math nationally. He has an IEP. He gets longer to graduate so in the end doesn’t matter. Virtually all his peers are same grade same age. Most have birthdays within 2 months May and June. They were the younger side as well. Most are not held back anymore beyond kdg. Cause by third grade unless something really “wrong” they will all have leveled out by then. Even for maturity. During lockdown I was right in the room and he was doing some math I did in 9th in 7th. And he did it fine which was interesting. I can only imagine what the typical kids were working in. 🤕 Third grade is the year you read to learn instead of learn to read.
I know a few people who were held back a year in my schools, I think it can happen in some circumstances - usually when someone has learning disabilities/difficulties or illness that made them lose large chunks of school time, but I think schools are now being more proactive at aiding children who need more assistance.
I think it's to do with the style of tests given as from what I have heard most US exams are multiple choice questions Testing more memory recall, while over here in the UK most exams are more essay and written based and is suppose to test a deeper understanding of the content thought there is some memory recall involved e.g. for GCSE history (studied between the ages of 15-16 and you sit a final year exam at the age of 16) the test has 4-5 questions which are solely essay based and requires more in depth knowledge of the content, (I assume this may also be similar in the US but from what I have heard from family is that it is mainly multiple choice.
And another thing to add is that when luke mentioned different sets he forgot to mention that the content taught and tested is different in the final year, so individuals in the lower sets would take a foundation test in which the highest attainable grade is a 5 (a low B) but it is easier than what the Higher sets would take called the higher paper which is harder where the highest grade achievable is an 9 (supposedly equivalent to an A**) so if you got 90/100 in a foundation paper that would = a B but the same mark in a higher paper would be =A**
However, the foundation and higher papers are only given in certain subjects like Maths, English, Science and Language e.g. French or Spanish.
When picking GCSEs based on you grades from the previous 3 years you will be allowed to pick certain subjects with Maths, English and Science being compulsory. Those with lower grades are limited to what they can pick if there is a entry requirement such as those who want to do triple science (more in depth science) need to be achieving a minimum of a B before the enter.
honestly holding kids back doesn't make a ton of sense to me cause cause kids can still understand the material without passing. there's a lot of reasons why kids can be failing n repeating the grade don't seem to be the best way of fixing that
Yeah, I made a comment sabout my own experiences with nearly being held back, but, beyond that, like... there was a period during my schooling in the US where the curriculum I was following wasn't right for me. I needed math courses that contained the same material as standard courses, but were taught differently :S A child's ability to learn new information has way more to do with individual needs than age.
Dislexia runs in my family and holding back is pointless when the child is fine in anything except reading.
But does it make sense to drag them along if they are not able to handle the math wich will be needed for the next year? It probably depends how the different subjects get tought as well
@@karinland8533 that’s where sets come in though, if you aren’t able to keep up with maths then you’ll get dropped to a lower set. If you’re in the lowest set and still struggling the school will probably provide you with tutoring or have you attend extra classes. Repeating a year isn’t going to help someone who struggles to understand and engage with something in the long term. By the time they progressed from learning that stuff by repeating the year, they would just fall behind at the next stage again because it’s not what they’re good at.
My friend redid year 10 in the uk because she spent 70% of the year in and out of hospital with various illnesses, she had to fight for it though the school were very against it but her parents wanted it and she had friends in the year below anyway. I think in total she was in the school for about 2 weeks over the whole year so it was needed
I have an interesting perspective as an A level student who kinda got held back. I got really sick with a chronic illness at the end of year 12 and beginning of year 13 so I had started to really struggle with the work load of 3 A levels. I had quit all of my extra curricular activities because I hoped it would help with my energy managing the work but it didn't. It got to the point where I was regularly going home and not attending class because I just couldn't. So my school and my mum and I had a frank conversation about what I could manage at that point and it was decided that I would drop history for the rest of year 13 and only take 2 A levels at the end of the year while staying on an extra year to do history in a year. This isn't a common practice at all and only really happened because I was dealing with all this medical stuff. While I definitely think it was the right idea at the time I ended up regretting the decision because, with COVID, I didn't end up taking any exams at all at the end of year 13 and so could have had a fun gap year or gone to uni with everyone else in my year if I hadn't taken on the extra year
Good luck with your Alevels! i am sick as well and had to drop one of my alevels in the middle of year twelve and then had to chose between either going back a year and being on a completely diffrent timetable to my friends or dropping out completely (which I chose to do) and I’m now taking online courses at a uni undergrads level ahead of my friends despite my im esses and learning difficulties 😂
I feel like this discussion is missing a lot of points regarding UK schools. Where we do not hold back students, i believe most schools will put the child struggling with certain subjects into extra sessions to support their learning where they will be able to ‘catch up’ and be on the same level as their peers.
Based on other comments, it seems like the UK is way less standardized than US public schools. Tbf, US varies widely in offering by budgets, but it seems like the UK head teachers have a lot more power than our principals to run things the way they want.
I'm from the UK and I was held back in year 6 due to being off so much with illness that year. It was kinda annoying but overall I'm glad I repeated that year as I did miss so much
Edit: also I was born in August so until that point I'd always been the youngest in my class, so being held back felt quite natural as I was only a few weeks off being in that class anyway
Failing is incredibly rare in the US now. Well, failing isn't, but being held back is.
There are students who have failed for years and are still passed on!!
I teach high school in the US. The past 4 or 5 years is much more similar to what Luke is describing than what Evan is describing.
Also summer school, online class retakes, remedial classes are all used to try to catch up students.
Linking to this, I feel like the "failing" is something on the British side that Luke didn't mention. In primary school (age 4-11), we don't actually take exams (apart from 1 phonics test when you're 6, one sats exam when you're 7, and another sats exam when you're 11). This means that in many year groups, you don't take any "real" exams (you might take practice exams to get used to the format, but they're strictly for practice rather than testing). Hence, there's no concept of "failing" a year in primary school in the UK, because you can't fail a test that you didn't take.
@@lornehyde3547 failing in the US isn't generally from exams. Other than the reading test Evan mentioned in 3rd grade, most exams do not matter for the student. They're measures used to see how much government funding the schools should get, based on how effective they are/how many kids pass.
Students fail in the US, not because of exams, but normally due to not completing class work. Often this is due to chronic absences, during which students accumulate large amounts of work they need to make up and for some reason or another, they don't do it.
State exams play no part in whether a kid passes or fails as we normally don't get the results of those exams until the start of the next school year
@@ninimeggie4771 That's interesting, because I was wondering how that was assessed as well. But I think it's still a bit different between the US and the UK (though this might have changed since I was at school) because in the UK there's no concept of getting an overall "grade" until you're in mid-secondary school. For primary school there wouldn't be any kind of running tally of a child's aptitude. Obviously you'd have a sense of whether or not you were struggling with a certain subject but there'd be no grade assigned to it.
There also isn't a concept of "graduating" between school years/grades in the UK which I think may be linked to the US system of more riding on whether you complete the year. You just go from one to the next until you finish school.
@@hyperchica it's very similar in the US. Grades in most elementary schools are on a different scale, not A-F but Outstanding, Satisfactory, unsatisfactory etc.
Mostly, if children are held back it's in pre school or Kindergarten (age 4/5/6) and normally due to lack of social skills or an inability to handle a full school day yet. So they're given an extra year to prepare for going into first grade.
At least in my district being held back at that level is recommended by the school if students would benefit but is left up to the parent to decide.
In fact all retentions or skipped grades are recommended by the school but ultimately the family has the final say.
When I was in primary school I really wanted to get held back a year when I was due to go to high school but was told I couldn't be (turns out I'm autistic, but I wasn't diagnosed at the time).
Most of my work life has been spent supporting families including around education. Although there are often funding issue and other issues with accessing support, we are more likely to have a classroom assistant to support the children in a class who are struggling, sometimes other additional support to help them catch up.
I think we also put a lot of emphasis on not everyone being academic, so as you progress people may go to college to train in a trade, when you leave school you may also go into an apprenticeship and some people obviously just go straight into work.
When working with families there was one child who I worked with, they were always referred to by their parent and some professionals about how stupid they were, how they will never succeed, but when they went up to their GCSE's where you get put in sets they were accidentally put in the top set for maths and not the bottom. They really struggle in the top set, their maths teacher would report that they appear to be struggling but are just about keeping up, then a few months into the year it was recognised that they were in the wrong set and so without warning they were told they were in the wrong set and should be in the bottom set. I had a few things to say about this decision. My view was that they benefited by being in the wrong set. Their behaviour improved while they were more challenges in school and they spoke more positively about feeling a sense of achievement and were proud that the school has decided to believe that they could achieve more by putting them in the higher set. As soon as they were moved from the top set to the bottom, they stopped trying, they felt everyone thought they were a failure and so why should they try. I tried arguing to reverse the decision but the school said it was policy and wouldn't be fair on other students if a failing student gets to be in the top set, what are they going to do? All the parent will expect the same for their children.
I think, despite some problems and still too much focus on generalising rather than looking at individual cases where maybe for those individuals something different would help, and I know a lot of this is down to funding and staffing, but I prefer how things are done here in the UK Vs perhaps the US of holding people back as possibly the main instrument to address underperforming children.
Even going for degrees. I was kicked out of home when I turned 16. I had generally poor grades, mainly D's or lower, with F for information technology and computers (now full-time self employed making a living with RUclips, eCourses and writing books). I got D for English language, E for English literature (my RUclips channel is storytelling), BB for Science, C for Maths after retaking it, raising it from D. Yet despite no A levels, no Bachelor's degree etc, I managed to get into a Master's degree. I had issues with the university due to being autistic and then not addressing the issues and concluding that it is tough and so I quit the degree, but without anything more than a few average to low GCSE's I was able to get on to a Master's degree course.
I think one related thing which wasn't mentioned in the video that also could be relevant is that academic educational attainment seems to be treated as more important in the US, whereas I think in the UK we don't necessarily put the same level of importance on it. You are more likely to ask what someone plans on doing when they leave high school, not what university will they be going to/have they applied for. This could also feed in to why the US may think it is important to hold students back to make sure by university age they are academically ready to pass to access university, whereas in the UK, you would be more likely to be supporting the student on their path to become a mechanic it artistic job or starting an apprenticeship or working with animals or in care etc.
I’m in Britain and I know someone who was put in the year above into my class.
They weren’t allowed to take the GCSE tests and had to redo the year but for one year they were ahead.
American here, to touch on the age difference thing, when I graduated high school, I had a friend whose brother was two grades under me, but we both do the same “age” for a month. The difference is that my parents send me the school “early” and his parents sent him “late.” So I graduated two years before him, even though I was only 10 1/2 months older than him
lol, that's not that huge of a difference. In my class one girl was 14 at the end of tenth grade, a boy in our class was 18. German here
Holding kids back and just teaching them the same stuff, in the same way, for a second time seems like a recipe for failure and for increased bullying to me. It didn't work the first time, no guarantee on the second. Individual solutions for struggling students seems a better way to me.
I'm from England and there was a boy at my primary school who was insanely intelligent and managed to move up a year. And a close family friend stayed back a year at primary school as she was really struggling. Both took a lot of persuasion from parents and teachers to the council ect, and the family friend went to a private school so this may have affected why she was allowed to stay back. Both thrived from being moved up a year/staying back
I love this discussion! U.K. here - I was pushed forward from Yr 1 to Yr 2, (SATS year) as they had limited spaces in Yr 1so chose the top 3 of Yr 2 to go forward - we weren’t expected to know quite as much, but we definitely learnt alot more, and we’re really equipped by ‘actual’ Yr 2 for SATS testing -
Not everyone has the potential to get an A grade in academic subjects any more than everyone has the potential to play football like Cristiano Ronaldo or run as fast as Usain Bolt. That is not a bad thing or a judgement. If you think that is a judgement or doing someone down then you need to think about your elitist attitude to what we regard as educational attainment.
I get that, but a fail to see how that is elitist.
As an American, I was kind of confused when Luke said that the sets or based on what you might get an exam. (did I interpret that wrong, I think that is what he meant) I mean, I get it but I don't. We have set like things in America, like Evan said: Extra Help, Standard, Honors, and Advanced placement. Peeps in extra help wouldn't say they are in extra help English 10 tho, they would just say english 10. Or they may take math English 9 or something.
So me and evan coming from that,
of course it would be weird to us to have classes were they are named and described to what you are predicted to do on an exam. To us, that is gonna feel judgemental ad isolating to a child bc it might make them feel like that is all they can do, all they can reach.
How is that elitist tho?
@@starsgalaxy3113 As a fellow Brit hopefully i can help clear a couple of things up. Firstly they're not named that at all or even described to the students like that- the class would just be 'english' or whatever else your subject happened to be. Like sure if someone asked what set you were in you would know and tell them but that's really as far as it goes.
What sets are really 'for'/about is catering for different ability levels and helping them really improve in their skills in what they really need to know at their ability level, so they're good at the more 'basic' things without trying to learn so much that they just get overwhelmed and at the end of it can't do much of anything, and that the people with higher ability or understanding can move on to more advanced areas of the subject.
What he means by them being about what you might get in an exam is that some of our subjects have exams with two different 'papers'/versions which are based upon different ability levels so they can better test the ability level with better grade boundaries and more certainty - especially with maths. Obviously being in a certain set kind of does determine which paper you're going to take when it comes to your exam (presuming you're taking one that year), so bottom set would be taking the foundation paper, top set would be taking the higher paper, and the middle set might be split between people taking papers to some degree.
The reason poeple take the lower paper is because if you take the higher paper, and you get lower than a C, you just straight up get a U (for ungraded), so if you're between ability levels it can be safer to take the lower paper to get a stronger grade even if it means the highest grades are off the table entirely. For people around that threshold, they might get a say in which paper they take too, so it's not entirely just doing what you're told. Plus, you'd always get the opportunity to retake so it wouldn't be the end of the world. We only really do exams at 16 and 18, so people do get plenty of opportunity to try again.
Obviously people can also move between sets, they're very much not set in stone - they're always looking to make sure that the people are in the right place and they're not struggling to keep up or finding everything so easy that they're bored out of their mind. They also don't instantly put people in sets for things either, they alwats try to have a really solid understanding of your ability before they do that, and then things can always still change from there.
It's not really judgmental and isolating, or at least people don't really see it that way. The schools are generally doing the best they can especially, to help encourage the people struggling to be able to do better.
@@KaishaLouise ohhhhh, that make much more sense! Thanks for clearing that up! That actually sounds it caters to the persons individual needs more than the US lol. I just didn't have enough info I guess and I think that is why evan made the comment that everyone has the potential to be at the highest set. It just seemed like you were put on where you were thought you would be and that's it.
I appreciate the information tho!
@@starsgalaxy3113 Ur definitely not just put somewhere and then ur stuck there. Funnily enough, i remember that at the end of every half term (before the week holiday breaking up the term/semester) we'd always sit a test so that when we returned, the teachers knew which set to put us in. In my school we didnt even call the sets "higher" or "lower": we just called them "y" and "x", and i think that helped people not feel bad about themselves, or (for higher sets) helped them to not develop a superiority complex. Honestly the more i hear about the american education system the more i think "thank god im from england", because its all so....bleh. School is about more than just grades, and to hold a child back a year would cut them off from their friends, make them feel like an "odd one out" bc theyre a year older than everyone else, and would give people and excuse to bully them. From a UK perspective, i cant see how it would help at all
Having taught math in a school that held back and also a school that didn't (in NJ) I have such mixed feelings on hold back students. For the kids that try and might just not have been developmentally ready, I see benefits. They come in more mature, with background knowledge, and increased confidence. They often thrive as class leaders.
But for the kids who are held back for not completing assignments or putting in effort, it is unlikely an additional year will do much. For the kids that are just really low in math, they continue to struggle even with small groups and interventions in place.
It isn't commonplace to hold back students, so the kids that are held back typically have a severe lack of knowledge / skills they need to be successful in the subsequent grade. With such diverse reasons behind students failing a class or grade, we need as diverse a range of solutions available.
This is it right here, I hate that we are encouraged to just push kids through when it is clear that they might need just some extra time to grasp the concepts, especially when they are trying. There is nothing worse than seeing a kid who use to be a engaged student slowly lose their love of learning because they do not have the skills to be successful, because they were not giving the education they deserved
As someone who was the youngest in my class (August birthday) I was held back in preschool (age 3) to see if I would to better as an older kid. This effort spectacularly failed, so I then skipped the next grade and went to kindergarten. Sometimes as trivia, especially if people know I am young for my year, I would tell them I got held back once and the reactions are always amusing :)
I remember bumping into my GCSE art teacher in town after we finished school and having a chat to him and him saying it was less about the grades but preparing you for life after school - good guy
Evans argument that every student can get an A* is completely false. Coming from my experience working in a school and working with 14-15yos who can't count backwards in 1s, and have a reading age of 6. They def ain't getting an A and sets benefit them. I've worked with kids who to even get a letter grade (E/F) is an achievement as they can try their absolute hardest and still get a U
I was in the bottom set for every subject for gcse, mostly due to little to no self confidence, the aim was to just pass the subjects and get a C grade but for maths I was able to get a B grade which was the highest our set was able to achieve.
I'm 14 years old old in year 10 and I mainly get grade 5 and 6s (Bs)
Year boundaries for birthdays
England - 1 September to 31 August start “reception” at 4.
Scotland - 1 March to 28 February. Start Primary 1 at age 4.5-5.5. Your parents can make a case if you aren’t 5 by the school start date (it’s usually only Jan and Feb birthdays that get to) to be able to wait to start primary at 5 years old. There’s no option to start school early, but some schools may allow people in special cases to sit a National (GCSE equivalent) or Higher a year early. As an April baby I was one of the oldest in my year, where if I’d be English I would have been on the younger end.
Great video, super interesting and relatable!
I was held back in 1st grade and agree with both of you to some extent. On one hand pulling me back a year helped me catch up with my peers and learn to love to read instead of despising it. I even eventually was above average in all subjects and in advanced classes for some others. However, it was a serious blow to my confidence and even to this day I have definitely felt more pressure to prove myself so no one could hold it against me. I was also extremely lucky to get one on one attention when I was struggling and if I had gotten that help in the first place there might not have been any need to hold me back.
As a primary teacher in the UK there are definitely times when I wish we could hold kids back - children who really struggle with reading by the time they leave year 1, or who don't have the basics of adding and subtracting single-digit numbers probably would benefit from being taught that again, rather than going on to Year 2 where most things are taught on the assumption that the basics have been mastered.
I mean honestly the school system is broke and I think it needs to be totally reformed from the ground up, but within what we have... it's super hard when you're trying to teach 30 kids without a TA to give that 8 year old who cannot read words longer than 3 letters the one-to-one help she needs all the time when everyone else also needs to learn.
I agree but what about inclusion for SEN kids? Should they all just be shoved into special schools where they can access learning at their own level or should they be kept in mainstream school with their same age peers with the knowledge that they'll never operate on the same level?
At the school I work at the children that need more support get short 10 minute sessions with the class TA to go over what was just introduced in the lesson before they go off to work independently. It will usually be a group of 4-6 children that struggled on the carpet for various reasons. It's not a prefect solution but it does help.
@@emzshea my school has quite a large number of SEN children compared to a lot of other mainstream schools. They will usually have a 1-1 or 1-2 TA that will work with them, and their goals will be different to the other children in their class. Normally their goals will be things like participating in an adult led activity for a certain amount of time and verbalising their needs (usually with the help of makaton or visual aids).
History is repeating itself for me, except I didn’t know I was dyslexic and dyscalculia until I was lining up for my GCSEs.. I knew my son was dyslexic before he started school, didn’t understand rythming.
His year hasn’t got TA he’s 8 and last year he finally got confirmation that he is dyslexic. Yet my youngest who’s very clever has a 1-1 because they think he’s autistic. System doesn’t seem fair.
I’m saving up to send my eldest to a special dedicated school for dyslexics for secondary. I hope he does better than me!
It definitely needs a overhall, I’m proud of how far I’ve come but it’s really knocked my confidence. And I will fight for my son to not feel a failure. Dyslexics are amazing inventors over history they’ve changed the world, we need to support them!
In the Netherlands, students also get held back when their grades are insufficient and in rare cases students get to skip a grade.
For example, i got to skip 1st grade / year 1 because that's when we learn to read and write. I could already read quite well and after a few weeks of IQ tests, my parents were presented with the option of me skipping a grade.
Truthfully, intelligencewise it was a good decision, but socially i was very much behind and that's why i've been bullied my entire school period... selective mutism because of trauma at home did not help either
I also skipped year 1 in the netherlands, mostly bc my boredom resulted in behavioral problems.. I think on the long term it was a good decision, but I also got bullied for being the nerd / know-it-all. It’s nice to hear I’m not the only one who had something similar happen to them!
Cool video! I’d say getting held back can help in some cases. My brother went to pre-first instead of first grade. It was an in-between of kindergarten and first grade and I think it helped him with reading.
I also liked that it was a glass of 10-15 people. So it was a smaller glass collectively getting extra help for a year.
As a trainee teacher, I found this really interesting. I have to disagree with holding back students. The stress and disappointment doesn’t outweigh benefits imo. I also really disagree with what we do here in the UK with sets. It’s been proven that mixed-ability groups exceed more than being split by sets, so I truly believe we should be adopting that more. Plus, it reduces the amount of students getting left behind (this is especially true when placed next to someone exceeding the average expected grades). The age gap is mad in schools, I was always the oldest in my year and there is a slight correlation between grades and age. The older you are, the more likely you’ll do well. It’s not always true but from what we’ve studied in my degree, there’s possible link.
There’s another really interesting correlation in sports - professional athletes are far more likely to have birthdays at the start of their school year because their teachers notice that the kids who are nearly a year older are better, give them extra training so they stay better and the cycle reinforces. I wonder if there are similar trends elsewhere?
Out of curiosity, the 'exceed more' - is that average across the class and/or having a higher number reach the top grades? Because in my experience as one of these 'gifted kids' growing up, is that I often spent half of my lessons clarifying to classmates that didn't understand the teacher's explaination of a subject (since I already knew all the subject matter - e.g. I learned everything in Science class up to year 8 by the time I was in year 2 and it wasn't until year 10 that I learned anything from History). Ended up pretty great for my classmates as they essentially had two teachers to solidify their understanding, but I ended up hitting my last years of school without the skills to deal with it since I spent so many years sitting in class bored af answering questions from my classmates instead of engaging and excercising my brain to learn more and learning how to learn more.
@@claireisham9586 how interesting!!! Hopefully there’s more research so we can find more correlations like this.
@@Neion8 I believe it’s average across the whole class, although I could be mistaken. Simply just that if you’re older, you are more likely to score higher in tests/retain information more because of brain development etc. More research needs to be done to solidify this information. The description of your experience is part of the reasoning for mixed ability groups and the benefits. However, it isn’t uncommon for the “gifted” child to hit a wall somewhere along the way as they’ve been seen to teach information instead of retain and understand more. Hopefully with time this can be addressed properly. I was very similar. Reading and music were my strong areas, I was years ahead for those subjects. The reading was picked up on and I ended up helping others who were behind… but it killed my love of reading for pleasure and created a barrier. Definitely can relate to your experience.
I and three other boys were always put together in classes and at the back of the class. We also regularly got the best results in tests. We were also amongst the oldest in the class, two of us had mid October birthdays on consecutive days, my best friend Rob was born on 1 Nov and the fourth mid November. One year three of us were put in the other class in the same year for a term as the relatively young teacher we had that year was having trouble trying to keep us entertained and also to try to drag the other class's average up. Don't think that would work in one term. In case you are wondering we had two classes of about 50 pupils per class per year. All but two pupils (twin brothers) in my class passed the 11 plus exam.
I was held back in the US in kindergarten and my brother in prekindergarten. We are one year apart. We were held back by our mother not the school because she believes that children in the US are put into school too early and that being held back early helps a child to develop more maturity. I was born in March so I will graduate this year at 19 years old. I think this experience has helped me a lot overall with performance in classes as well as maturity. And since we were held back so early we didn’t see any bullying at all for being held back. For me it didn’t effect my confidence much because my two best friends also got held back for the same reason.
I honestly alps think you start school too early and many studies have shown that is has no positive benefits either. I think your mom did good with giving you a year more to just be a child. Here in Germany we usually start school at age 6/7, 7 being more common or kids turn 7 once they start school. Before 1st grade we really just get to be kids and learn those important social skills and motor skills instead of stuff like reading or math.
I was held back in high school in Belgium basically because I was a brat at 17 and my Dutch teacher hated me. He gave me 15% at the final oral exam making my average plummet. The 2 final years I just got bored out of my mind. Even the tests and exams were the exact same as the year before. And the senior test were f course given to me by my friends. In my opinion, holding kids back a year, more often than not is just useless. Tutoring and extra support would be much better.
I'm from Belgium as well and I think most holding back happens in 1st year of primary school and 5th year of secondary school. I get why, but if teachers just hate you and fail you for no reason (like you said for oral exams it can't even really be checked) it's so shitty... I hope you're doing well now though, but I'm sorry you had to deal with that 😕
Sounds just like my partner. He's from Belgium and was held back in school until he was 20, from what he tells me seems like he didn't get any real support or guidance and was allowed to just be demotivated. He left without the basic deploma but qualified for vrachtwagen chauffeur
@@fynnersml4246 Yeah, sounds like a very accurate description of Belgian education sadly enough...
I'm glad he was able to find work though, hope he likes it 💖
@@fynnersml4246 sounds about right. Ik did get "support" the following year. Every week I had to go to the "guidance councelor" with a piece of paper telling him how much time I spend on homework. After about half a year he gave up since I did not have to do anything to get 70% in an f-ing repeat year.
I remember in my high school in the UK I volunteered to help kids who had recently joined the high school who's reading still wasn't up to the appropriate level. They just came to our learning centre at break and lunch times after grabbing food and we read through books with them and helped them out when they got stuck. I think keeping them going and just providing additional classes is better. I also used to work for a tuition company and children from troubled families had extra tuition paid for by the government that they were able to take advantage of.
It was interesting watching this as a teacher. Maybe you could get one of us on for one of these chats one day
Back when I was in primary school in Finland, the most common grade to be held back on is the 1st grade, I believe for reading/writing skills the most cases, but as far as I know, getting held back is getting rarer and rarer these days bc the schools (supposedly at least) try to intervene and provide the students with more support as soon as they notice that somebody's struggling for one reason or another.
In high school, most people would finish their school in 3 years, but you had the option to stay for 3.5 years or 4 years if you wanted to, no questions asked, it was up to the student. Some kids stayed for 4 years bc they wanted/needed to take a slightly slower pace, or possibly had to retake some courses they didn't pass on the first go, some did so bc they did sports that meant their schedules were busier, and some wanted to do extra exams in the final examination and took the extra time available to prep for those, so the 4th year tended to be a pretty mixed bunch of people, and nobody would even pay attention to who was staying longer, especially because we got free reign over how to structure a bunch of our courses so there could easily be kids from all different years in the same course depending on when they decided to take it. Even if you were redoing a course because you failed it on the first go, nobody would know, because there'd be a bunch of kids from different years in most classes anyways (with the exception of a few subjects where you'd end up sticking with the kids from your own year, mainly Finnish, maths and also English bc they had a higher amount of mandatory classes and you kinda had to take them in a specific order and fit a specific number of courses in each year). The only consequence was that when you left a course that most kids took in their first year for your later years, you'd end up feeling super old with all these Children in your class when you finally took it (god, the emotional toll of taking Psychology 1 in my third year when most of the students were first years was real...)
I think the highschool thing makes sense once you get to six form (16-18- I think the end of your highschool but not sure) which is optional anyway, lots of people repeat things and are there an extra year. We're treated a little more like adults at that point though, with free periods and a common room etc. And nobody cares at that point so there isn't any kind of bullying or anything like that.
Finally! More videos like these please!!!!
Something I've seen recently in the US in my state is that they're really pushing to NOT hold back elementary school students... I'm a therapist and I have a problem with that if hold backs are still going to b a thing. Psychologically speaking it's much harder on you the older you get. The best time is 3rd grade and under for the social aspect. If it's much older strong friendships have already formed and it's a lot harder to adjust (same goes for if you move). If a kid must be held back older than that the best times psychologically would be right before they go to middle school and right before they go to high school... Kind of like what you said about if you go with a new group of kids for the next level they don't have to all know you were held back.
I'm partial to Montessori-style learning. It takes the stigma off because you learn at your own pace and so you move groups as you get there at there's not as much of an issue if you stay in an area longer than someone else because not everyone moves at once.
Also it's interesting the 10% you mentioned Evan... I know that number has decreased since the No Child Left Behind act. And, having a lot of teachers in my family and friend group, the problem that's coming from that is kids who are really behind are just getting sent through anyway because school funding is tied to how many are held back (because ya know like every other stupid education decision in this country "oh this school district his holding a lot of kids back. What they need is less funding!" was somehow seen as the smart decision??? Like... Make it make sense). And so you're getting kids who are getting to middle and high school and still don't have the foundations down because they've not tested low enough to get those support teachers (or the school just can't afford them because that is a thing too) and then they're failing consistently because they don't have that support and then the kid thinks their stupid when in reality they just haven't had the support they need to learn how they need to.
I'm a learning support assistant in a junior school - we are constantly told how important it is that children of different abilities sit together to enrich the lower children's learning. It also helps children of higher abilities when they have to explain something. Although they sit through the same lesson, the actual worksheets they do are targeted to their ability. When some (usually middle children) have struggled with a topic, an LSA will take them out of non core lessons to go over it with them. There are lots of interventions to help the children catch up.
The USA year boundaries are sometimes a little firmer than what Evan mentioned, some districts will not accept any student who isn't at least 5 years old by the first day of the school year. My brother would have been one of those, but our parents signed both of us to attend a private (for profit) school that would let him start "early." His birthday is in late September, and the school year started in the first week. By his first grade year he could then attend school with the other public school kids, because he had passed kindergarten.
I’m pretty sure each school district gets to choose the age, so it varies even within states. I went to public school in California and my school district said students needed to be 5 years old by December 1. My sister was born on Dec 9 so she started the following year and was always one of the oldest students in her grade
I was born at the start of March, I wasn't allowed to start Reception class in the UK (4 years old going to age 5) in September of the previous year because the cut off to start then was Feb 28th. So because I was born a few days later I had to go to nursery until March, when I could then start Reception.
So whilst Iwas playing for half a day at nursery, my friend who was born 20 days before me was learning English and Maths. Most of us as a result were put in lower sets until about year 2 when it kind of evened out a little bit.
Strange strange rules.
You have to pass kindergarten?!
@@AlwaysLaura1 You don't have to pass anything in the UK. You automatically move up.
I was just a few days younger than my friend so started 7 months later for some stupid reason. Annoyed my mum to no end as it meant I stayed in nursery which you just do have a day for vs reception class which is a full day. Meant she couldn't go back to work full time.
In England the "Compulsory School Age" (the date by which you absolutely must be schooling) is the 31st of December/March/August after your 5th birthday.
As the school term begins in September this means the vast majority of people join the Reception Class in the September after their 4th birthday. You can start later than the "usual time" (even part-way through the year), but you must be in school by the compulsory age.
If you start late (i.e. the September after they turn 5) you'll usually go straight into Year 1 (do you're in the same class as people your age) ,but with the permission of the school you can join the Reception Class instead - this is akin to being held back a year.
There's isn't really the idea of starting early - nor is there a need for it since the government funds early years education for all 3 and 4 year olds (until they join school), with that being extended to 2 year olds for people who are economically struggling or otherwise disadvantaged.
I think the PISA study found no correlation between education systems that hold students back and performance in literacy and numeracy overall. It's also bizarre the idea that you would hold students back a year based on overall performance, when they might be doing perfectly well in some subjects, and not in others. One of the most basic skills you learn in teacher training is teaching mixed ability groups.
It all depends on how well you do it. Do failing students get extra attention in systems without hold backs or are they left to their own devices disassociating with class and getting left behind further.
Is being held back seen as a punishment, or an oportunity to catch up, are repeating students engaged in the lesson content and called upon or are they left to their own devices and expected to already know what's up, are they treated as the one in the know who can answer questions or the person who's probably bored.
Growing up in the US, I had an interesting situation where I was technically held back and skipped forward simultaneously. Essentially the school was considering having me skip ahead, but I was also sick a lot as a kid, so I missed a lot of school every year, and one year I was absent to the point that I didn't meet my school's minimum attendance requirement to move on to the next grade. This resulted in me being held back, but since they had already been considering having me skip ahead they decided go ahead with it and let me skip a grade, which meant that it cancelled out, and I just moved on normally.
About 20 years ago, when I was a child, I remember a boy held back a year at my primary school aged 8 here in England. This shows that it’s not that it doesn’t happen here in England, it’s just that it’s extremely rare for it to happen.
When I was in the 6th grade, I very nearly got held back. I had good grades, but because I got hit by a literal tidal wave of viruses that year, I missed a good two months of school, so despite catching up with work, they wanted to have me repeat that year, but my mom vehemently argued against it. However, part of why they wanted to keep me back was because my records were tampered with in the 3rd grade. My school secretary happened to be the wife of a coworker of my dad's who did not get along with him, so the wife decided to be an absolute bitch and rewrote my records, putting me down as having learning disabilities and a troubled home life, which could not have been further from the truth. I went through two years of going through irritating special needs reading and math classes where I excelled beyond anyone because I was perfectly normal. By 7th grade when I moved to a new school district I mercifully got my records corrected.
It's ridiculous that the school would put you through two years of special needs classes if you were clearly not needing them, even if you did have special needs your actual abilities should have been continuously assessed and that should be the basis for any additional support and the level of that support.
Also, tampering with school records sounds illegal, should be illegal and is definitely against professional practice.
@@dreinogolau At the least she got fired. And the school was in Illinois, and they don't mind getting more funding if it means a few kids are stuck in special classes they don't need.
That is insane.
It is sad that you were put in special needs classes just bc of what your record said, and not your actually abilities. My brother was put in special needs classes bc his record said he had ADHD (he does not, he was just a hyper kid) and when they found out he did not, they immediately dropped him bc he did not need then otherwise. Makes you wonder how many people are getting resources they need bc of their record instead of their actually performance, and how many are not getting the recourses they need bc they don't have any diagnosis smh
@@starsgalaxy3113 It's definitely a huge issue that needs to be seen to in our current education system.
Man, it's really pathetic to tamper with the education of a child over a silly grudge against their parent. It's also absurd after 2 years nobody noticed something was off or double checked your records, kids really don't get enough support in the education system.
I skipped second grade (Belgium, Flanders) because I had already learned almost all the material I needed to know for that grade. It was nice for a year or two but after that the effect sort of faded away. Skipping grades and holding people back is quite common here. They even use it as an easy way out in some schools that don't have enough resources. About 1/3 or 1/4 of the kids that my sister was in a class with in primary school were held back at some point. It'd be nice if we wouldn't have to do that, but more resources are needed to ensure every child gets adequate attention in class for their needs.
Luke hit the nail on the head about the class sets! I was in the middle group and therefore couldn't get the higher grade so my friend taught me on her and my own time some of the higher level maths and I was able to prove I could do the higher tier exam and did well!! The sets arent always fair to students who could do more!
I agree with Luke! Having classes at different levels means we dont need to hold people back.
I had to repeat a grade (Germany), because... this needs a bit info.
I moved across the country and, well, the part I moved to used a different cursive writing, and I struggled to learn that one. Part of this struggle were mental problems.
So yeah, I repeated, I was pushed back mid-term, parts of first grade and than second grade. Truly embarrassing.
Unser Schulsystem ist ja eh sehr bescheuert so mit den unterschiedlichen Schulformen 🥲
@Prosper Meniere Eh ut was just one of the reasons. And that principal was a bit weird (according to my mom she actively hated me), so, eh. But in retrospect, I actually profited from being a year longer in school.
@Prosper Meniere if Ella moved in the middle of the year it is understandable. Cursive is mandatory and takes effort to learn.
It sure was not nice and maybe just a really bad time to move. In the first yeas kids have a hared time to read different hand writing ,thats why is was important.
I switched schools from year 9 to 10 and suddenly basically had the same exact curriculum for the second time in a row. The German education system is really weird sometimes. I was bored out of my mind for that 10th year because I already knew basically everything that was taught but plus side was I was able to just do whatever in class like reading and I still got extremely good grades.
Holding back is such a strange concept. In Norway we have no grading until we go to middle/highschool at 12yo. If someone is struggling (or gifted), they get more individualized homework and workbooks, or taken out in smaller groups to get more assistance. Also our classes are everyone born that year, so jan-dec, even though our schoolyear is august-june 😅
My school's gifted program was pretty wild thinking back on it. I was in it for a few years and I dont remember all the details, but there were probably only about 6 kids in the program, and basically one day a week or so they would round us up, put us on a bus, and took us to an entirely different place, like a personal field trip for the smart kids. It was nothing like a regular class, either. We spent the day playing different games that mostly relied on logic, creativity, problem solving, and just generally outside-the-box thinking. We did Rebus puzzles (my favorite), various math puzzles, crosswords, mancala, and a bunch of other fun stuff. We also dabbled in arts and crafts, usually around certain holidays, and we always had a dedicated time to play outside. It was more of a reward for being smart than a program to actually advance our learning. I loved it and remember it very fondly, but it was nothing like what you guys seem to have experienced.
The bad part of the gifted program is that it sets an expectation for you to remain gifted and if you go from being exceptionally gifted to even just slightly above average, it's often treated as a failure. Not every exceptionally smart 8 year old is going to continue to outpace their peers throughout their entire life, yet there is a lot of pressure to do exactly that. I was only in third grade when presigious universities started sending letters to my home trying to recruit me, offering me huge opportunities that my family couldn't afford to accept. I spent my entire early childhood being told that I was ranked among the top students in the entire country, that I was exceptional, and that I was expected to do great things in life, and as soon as I hit a point in school where I couldnt keep up for one reason or another, I became a disappointment. I was afraid to ask for help when I needed it because I was afriad it would make me look stupid, and when my mental health started impacting my grades, everything just started snowballing from there. When my mental health suffered, my grades suffered, and when my grades suffered, my mental health got even worse, and instead of trying to figure out why I was suddenly doing so much worse than before, I heard a lot of things like "you had so much potential" and "you know you can do better than this"
The gifted program was both the best and worst thing for me in my academic career and I don't know how that problem could even be fixed
I remember when I was in year 11, I got moved from set 3 maths to the absolute bottom set named set 7 that they made specially for students who were really struggling with maths and I felt like shit. I felt so stupid. I remember my teacher telling our entire class “let’s be honest, most of you won’t get anything over a 5 or 6” (we were the first year to do the new GCSES grading system) and it really knocked my confidence down
So because Evan could add up he got to study about other countries such as Japan.....it's called Geography in the UK and we all get to study history and geography.
What about all the pupils that excel in parts of the curriculum such as languages or art but struggle in other such as maybe technology? Do you keep them back because they can't cut a straight line with a saw ....or skip a grade because they are good in Spanish...
From what i understand, in Northern Ireland at least, it’s entirely up to the student if they want to repeat the year. A few of my friends repeated final GCSE year due to illnesses etc and some repeated A Level years to get better grades and start over. I’m not sure how it would work if you did just do shit 😂
The timing of when material is taught varies in the USA as well. I was 2 years ahead of NY when I moved there from the Maryland system. Ended up graduating a year early with more credits than needed and only lost a year to the moving shuffle.
I think the difference in viewpoints can be seen in the names.
US - “Third Grade” = Exam exam exam you will be graded doggammit!
UK - “Year 4” = Just a year of your life, which includes school, but also personal, social and age development and growth.
I am Scottish and went to school in Fife. I know of many parents including my sister who would hold their kids back before starting primary school rather than in primary school, and this would be a discussion had between the parents and nursery teachers depending on if it was felt that the child wasn't ready for school. Also I believe the cutoff for a year is March 1st (at least in scotland when I went to school), so anyone whose birthday fell between March 1st of a year to February 28/29th of the next year would make up the year group. I know this because my primary school was one of the largest in the country having around 90 students in a single year. You tended to have classes of around 30 pupils with each year having at least 3 classes and the school divided the classes by the students birthdays so that the children in the class were all around 3-4 months of each other in age. They did also occasionally have a mixed year class (i.e Primary 3-4 class) which i think would contain the younger students of the upper year with the older students of the lower year as to maintain this ensuring that the kids of the class were generally in the same place developmentally.
Yeah - looks like it hasn't changed since I started school here in Edinburgh in the late 70s. The oldest kids in our class where born in March - so March to Feb was the age group
Holding kids back breaks their confidence like you said. My mom threatened to hold me back when I was a kid. Also I had a learning disability but it was honestly just boredom!!! And like you also mentioned major lack of school help with teachers average school size was like 27 kids and one teacher. And the teachers only taught in one way and if you didn't understand too bad
It increased my confidence as was held back before going to secondary school I was at a small village primary school and I'm very dyslexic, I wasn't ready to go to secondary school when I was supposed to.
Getting held back is TERRIBLE
Everyone thought I didn't know how to read when I really just hated what we were reading and I was a quiet speaker.
The age cut-off for starting school in UK is 31st August. As an August birthday, I was 11 months and 2 weeks younger than the oldest kids in my year, who were born in first week of September. Technically, I had a year head-start. It WAS weird sometimes, thinking how if you'd been born slightly later or earlier, your classmates (i.e. friendship groups) would be a totally different set of people.
(Can't say without sounding slightly boastful/bragging) My school had a "special needs" department that I ended up pushed into for various reasons, mostly that I wasn't being challenged enough by some of my regular classes and they needed somewhere to send me when others in my form were doing Religious Education (being raised in a religion that didn't want me experiencing other religions).
Problem was, the department was entirely set up to assist children who needed assistance catching up, and they didn't really know what to do with me.
Jokes on them though, I never persisted in that religion and it turns out (diagnosed 20 or so years later) I'm autistic.
The "special needs department" reminded me about a video from HealthyGamer I watched recently, where he explained that gifted kids are actually special needs kids and that they need different kind of support through their education, and that makes a lot of sense. If you have the capability to do more and go further than others, it will take you more time and more work to get there, simply because the distance is longer.
I’m always fascinated by countries having their ‘cut-off’-date in the middle of the year. In Norway your grade mostly consists of people born the same year as you. In my class in high school there were one student born January 2nd and another born December 30th.
There are a couple, but very few, students who are born late in the year and held back a year if they aren’t ready to be a student at school yet. It is also possible to start school a year early if there is a good reason for it.
it's cause of many reasons - so the school holidays coincide with Christian holidays (Christmas + Easter) or whatever the celebrations/majority religion in the country celebrates. Also due to farming times - there is less to do in the autumn/winter so it was reasonable for the kids to be in school then because they weren't needed to help on the farm. Either way, there is the same age difference between the oldest/youngest kids in the year so it doesn't really matter I guess.
as someone who has both skipped years and got held back: in the first case, it caused me to go from "I'm doing so great" to "I can't do as good, I'm failing" and failing my scolarity. It also got me way far down socializing with others (it was in the very early years that I skipped). So, I ended up getting held back twice; once at the very end of high school, the other at first year of college. the first time, it made me very depressed. I was almost done with school, I hated it, and here I was, yet another year. It destroyed me and if it wasn't for covid I would have definitely been held twice or dropped out. Thankfully I was able to get into college because of covid (final exams were cancelled and we were rated on how good we did in the year), but failed my first year because my college was really bad and I moved to another one (might fail again though because I'm burned out by all this...)
I'm in France if you're curious btw
something I have noticed at least in my area, is that the us school system mostly holds back elementary students rather than upper grades. especially because it makes sure you get the basics.
I’m an Alevel student now in my final year and I have a lot of friends who have been held back a year because they didn’t get the grades they want. As an option I believe it’s an amazing idea but being forced upon you is an entirely different story.
Also here final grades here don’t necessarily mean you’ve done amazing on that paper but how you compare to the year, so even if you feel like you’ve done badly as long as others have you can still get decent grades which is were I guess the UK and US testing methods greatly vary.
So, I work in education in Scotland, and we never hold kids back in school. The only grey area is pre-school and the kid’s birthday lies between December and February, then the parents can choose to defer their child’s placement in school for a year. If the nursery practitioners believe that the child can benefit socially and/or cognitively by staying in pre-school for another year.
At school, if the child is struggling with the level they’re supposed to be at, then they’ll be marked on their level. For example, if a 9 year old is having serious difficulty with Level 2 of the curriculum (which is where they “should” be), they’ll be assessed at Level 1, but will still do the same work as their classmates.
E.g: a writing exercise; a kid at level 2 will be marked on sentence structure and use of paragraphs, while the child at level 1 will be marked for spelling, and correct use of punctuation, but they’ll both be writing about the same thing.
I dunno if that makes sense or if I’m just waffling 😂
Yeh, I think that sounds about what we do here in Wales too. We'll adapt the tasks to the appropriate level but they'll still kinda be doing the same thing.
CfE was brought in when my children (now 19 and 17) were just starting out at primary school (think maybe as the older one started P1 and the younger one started nursery) so we were given a lot of information about it as parents. The assessments and grading make SO much sense, I think it's been a really positive thing - especially when I hear the way it's done elsewhere.
@@vikkispence CfE came in when I was in S6, so it didn't really affect me since I was doing my Highers (and one advanced higher lol) and CfE only covers up to S4. I only learned more about CfE and GIRFEC when I went to college, and tbh, I think I would've done a lot better in my Standard Grades if we were taught using the CfE model. Don't get me wrong, I did OK in my SGs (averaging a 2), but because the current curriculum is more tailored to each individual child, I think I could've done a bit better. Also, comparing Primary Schools that I now work in to when I was in primary, the teaching is now more "how can I help this child reach the next stage in their development" whereas when I was at school it seemed to be more about box ticking.
@@CommonInternetLurker I wish it had been CfE when I was at primary school in the 1980s and high school in the early 1990s. (I also wish autism without a learning disability had been recognised in girls back then too; I had to wait until I was 39 to be diagnosed. Thankfully both my children were diagnosed in childhood, and while they still struggled they had a lot of support, understanding, and accommodations at school)
I CAN'T WAIT FOR YOU TO MOVE! Your housing problem has been getting ME anxious as well!
GOOD LUCK with the moving, I hope it will go smoothly.
When I was in hs, there were multiple course choices for each credit you needed to graduate. In some cases, like math, it was overtly stratified-Foundations was the bare minimum for professional functioning, Plus was functionally identical to the "regular" course but with twice the course time (i.e. it was a double block course, but you had it for the whole year as well), and Advanced operated more like a college course. Other credits were less clear, but everyone knew, for example, Oceans 10 was Bio 10 for students who weren't as serious abt using a Science credit in college/uni and just wanted the credit to graduate.
One thing that isn’t mentioned about being held back is the amount of chances a student has. Specifically in my state, if you were to fail a year, there would be a meeting where it would be decided if you would need to be held back or not. Once that was decided a student would have the ability to do summer school in the core classes they failed and if they were to pass that then they would go in the next grade as usual.
True. Usually when kids are held back, it's because everyone is in agreement that it's what will benefit the kid the most, given whatever that child's circumstances are.
I think it's a great option at younger levels. Kids develop at different rates, and it's a great correction tool. Done young, it's just fixing the error of when the child was added to school.
Done older, well, I've never heard of it happening outside of elementary school. But that would be stupid.
One alternative to sets that I really loved at one school I went to was streams. Like sets it was ability based but you were with the same people all the time so if your had a weakness in only one or two subjects but you had the ability you'd still be in the top set and have the advanced resources which in theory helped even you out. Admittedly these were small class sizes so they could spend more time helping you if you happened to be in your weaker subject.
In my school we had different sets for some subjects. So maths and foreign languages you were in different sets. So you could be in bottom set in maths but top sets for science and humanities subjects e.g. history. Which seems fair and targeted to your specific abilities.
That thing about putting the kids they like at the front explains why me and my smart friends were moved to the back of the class!
I got held back in 3rd grade. They think it's because I was a December baby so I was a year younger than many people or at least 6 months or so and when you're very young every few months is a big difference I guess. My friend was born January the same yr as me so I was almost a full year younger and when i repeated 3rd grade I wasnt the youngest in my grade anymore BUT I did lose my confidence because of it
I was quite surprised the first time I learned that other countries has year cut offs. In Norway we are divided by birth years. But I think a child can be held back because of special reasons if they are born late in the year.
That sounds the same though, just that your cut off is Dec/Jan, rather than say August/September as it is in the UK?
@@dizdozable the cutoff in Scotland is the end of February, so children start school aged between 4.5 and 5.5 years old, and whether they have an extra year in nursery is decided between the parents and the nursery teacher based on individual readiness for school
@@vikkispence sure but that's still the same no matter what month the cutoff is?
My daughter repeated second grade in the US. Best thing for her. She was beginning to hate school because it was so hard for her to keep up. Nightly tears. No one at her school gave her any grief about repeating.
In elementary school, I remember not knowing why certain kids were taken out of class like you described. I was a part of every AIG, STRIDE, BoB, etc that you could be a member of. I was actually jealous bc I thought they were getting some extra class I wasn’t allowed to be in.
Knew a kid that lived near my house, failed the 3rd grade and was held back. They were actually a year older than me but ended up in the grade below me after a few years. Once told me they failed kindergarten but I don’t even know if that’s possible. He wasn’t the brightest but he was a good kid. Actually just ended up being friends with a few in my grade level anyways.
Not sure if Even is playing devil's advocate here or it's his genuine opinion that everyone could get an A* if they just tried hard enough but that shit is triggering as hell. Love to be told my inability to keep up is my own fault.
Right? I have extremely amazing kids who don't find academia easy. To hear they should be able to pull an A out of a hat is bullshit
Kinda elitist prick talk, really. Ignore him. You don't have to be a number to be amazing, and this doesn't deserve your pain x
It's ableist bullshit of the highest order
As a former primary school teacher, one of the BIG things that's not emphasised here is how much we, as teachers, customise learning for different levels of learners within our classes.
For example, if I was preparing a maths lesson I would likely have three broad "maths groups" in my class - a lower, middle and upper group. However, even within those groups there would be tasks set with optional challenges and extra support (there might, for example, be a group doing worksheets and the would be three different worksheets with different levels of challenge and the pupils would select which level of challenge they thought was right for them). In addition, I'd know which kids in my class would likely need extra one on one support and I would need to spend time with them or assign a teaching assistant to their table.
That whole juggling act of having multiple groups and multiple levels of challenge within each group is probably the hardest part of teaching - ESPECIALLY since you also have to track and assess how each kid is doing so you know if they're needed extra support our challenge put in place.
The idea that a kid would be held back and made to just do the same lessons again for a year seems like extremely lazy teaching to me. It shows that the education system isn't taking a child centred approach to learning and is placing WAY too much emphasis on testing. If a child is "failing" it's up to the school to put support and measures in place to help them catch up - not too just repeat the exact same stuff that caused the child to "fail" in the first place.
There's also the blindingly obvious factor that if a kid is failing at everything, it's likely they have additional needs and that the school needs to better support that. If they're only failing at, say, maths and numeracy then why would you make them relearn all their geography and English too?
Firstly; love the channel and yay for your flat!
Secondly; My school was an all girls academy in South London. We had sets and gifted and talented. In year 7 (first year of secondary school) as the top set in English, we were told that we would be advanced meaning I did Sat's in year 8 instead of year 9. Gcse in year 10 and as level (first year of A-levels) in year 11 so left with gcse's and as-levels. Sounds great but it caused multiple problems for this of us continuing education as I had to ensure any 6th form I went to used the same exam boards otherwise I wouldn't have been able to carry the course on. Also found that 6th forms didn't allow me to be in a second year A level class which meant I couldn't carry it on and started from AS level again.
I'm now 28 so it was a while ago and not sure if my school ever did this again. I also have never met anyone who had the same experience so it was just a little bizarre but happy we were given the opportunity!
Hoooold on. That means that you start a year in the us and everyone is different ages? That is so hard to get my head around. It feels like you’re trying to pause their lives and give them more time to learn, but time doesn’t stop, and that’s years of opportunity and learning and experiences off of their lives after school!