Another fantastic video. I personally LOVE using villains that are straight up evil and strongly believe in their ways, like mad scholars who will do anything to learn forbidden secrets or brutal warlords who believe in the "might makes right" society. It also gives players a fun antagonist to go up against.
Hypocrisy is a key element to making them stand out as villains. While Magneto does believe in mutant supremacy and making a better life for them, in some adaptations he does a some mutants are more supreme than others stance. Of course there’s the whole inflicting the same trauma he experienced on humans, which lead to that one scene in the cartoon that people meme on.
Let's not forget his confrontation with Wolverine in the first X-Men movie. Wolverine called him out on his plan and using Rogue to his ends at the cost of her life. Noting ambiguous about that.
Wow! Brilliant response to your pearl-clutching critics. Well done. I’m intrigued by your analysis of villain convictions. Thought provoking and stellar DM advice. Thanks! 👍🏼
The main villain on my 9 year old campaign ended up being a twisted hero. His aim was to "save humanity" in his own way, and he mirrored the party's struggles and quests with his own adventures. They'd often clash while seeking the same power or knowledge they'd need to battle the abject, abstract force of destruction that set both parties in motion. So much did they clash, that their clash of beliefs, and discussion on wether the other's philosophy could make lasting impact in the world became the pivotal point in the campaign, more so than the force of destruction they originally set out to foil.
I 100% agree with everything you said. It's like you took my own thoughts, made them vastly smarter and more coherent and gave them back to me. A villain's humanity should be perserved to amplify their evil, not to justify it. Also, I love how you argued that understanding/relatability does not equal justification. Just because a villain does things for an "understandable" reason doesn't mean the author/creative endorses such a stance.
I feel like a villain with conviction is incredibly scary. Because it means as long as their out there, there is a threat and time is running out until they achoeve their goals. They don't even need to be relatable or believe they are good. A greedy slavemaster might feel remorse, even some sympathy for their servant, but their craving for money and the life it brings them is makes it worth it. He would slaughter everyone he knew to get a couple pennies richer because he can buy and sell a man as easily as a load of bread.
villains can also hide in the morally grey and moral relativism, the goal isnt to say they are in the right but everyone is also in the wrong, easier to hide wrong doing and guilt as ive noticed in the real world circumstances
To quote Steven Erikson, fantasy allows us to make metaphors real and experience things we would otherwise find disturbing, through the lens of that metaphor. This is why dragons, evil races, dark magics or vile gods are prelevant in fantasy. People try to relate real world to fiction too much.
Another outstanding video, sir. Excellent work. For anyone out there that would benefit from my meager input, check out the fantasy series Twinborn Chronicles for some relevant villain case study. Imagine a necromancer willing to destroy the world in order to avenge the homeland he's unable to save from a tyrannical mageocratic empire. Great worldbuilding in general, but this specifically to the point. Mr Trill, your movie collection is astounding. I fancy myself a cinephile from a family of movie makers, yet there are some gems from European cinema in some of your videos that I neither recognize nor can find with screenshot image recognition. Good on you. LOL
This is why I hold Mr. Freeze in Batman TAS as a prime example of a sympathetic villain done right. He was trying to find a cure for his wife’s condition and avenge himself against the man who wronged him. Freeze was driven by revenge and desperation to the point he was willing to commit acts of evil. As for the whole “you’re racist irl if you think an entire *fictional* race is evil” argument, it’s moronic. You look at the Sand People aka Tusken Raiders in Starwars, it was firmly established in the movies and Expanded Universe that Sand People are hostile and xenophobic to everyone. The Disney canon tried to turn Sand People into a Native American allegory and push the noble savage archetype on them. It doesn’t align with what was established because the Sand People had zero qualms kidnapping, killing, and stealing from outsiders. In Kotor, if you wanted a peaceful solution with the Sand People, you had to dance over all sorts of eggshells just to have an audience with them. Problem is, people cherry-pick that one instance and ignore the full context to justify the idiocy in Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett.
@@Captain-Thievius Mr. Freeze is a very solid example. You feel bad for him because of his situation but that situation doesn't justify at all what he's doing.
❤❤❤ A video like this is compelling because of what has preceded it, even the comments under those previous videos. This video brings together a lot of your effort so far. I'd have to agree with your preamble concerning the comments. In a hobby that self-identifies as storytelling, the need to separate IRL from fiction is part of that suspension of disbelief. I get it; there's a lot of crap going on in the world, and every instance of morality may become an opportunity for outrage. As you said, though, it reflects the bias of the commenter and not the presenter. All too often, the comment section is where knee-jerk reactions and commenting to react and not engage are common. Out of curiosity, have any of the lit. recommendations I've posted before managed to pique your interest? I somehow feel this has been a long time coming. The default to "fun" has now more than ever, at least to me, driven us backward. Deities in fantasy games have just become part of the setting that may have lessened the ideas of cosmic forces affecting gameplay. Don't stop; keep this going. Material like this is far more interesting, thought-provoking, and engaging than the bog-standard reviews, tips, and listicles being posted.
I appreciate it. I've been considering this and figured there was just no way with my schedule I'd be able to do like a mega video where I go extremely in depth on the subject, so the best way I think is kinda like these chunk sized videos where I explain each part like a chapter building up to the whole of the subject. I'm glad it's come across that way if it has as a viewer. They definitely have btw, I checked out the D&D&Philosophy Book with the Menzoberranzan chapter and really enjoyed it.
Darth Vader is a good example he has a tragic backstory but is past don't justify his tragic backstory he still is a monster. Just like how Jigsaw also a tragic backstory has but his cruelty can't justify his morals and back story.
Thank you for another interesting video! I think that despite appearances, most D&D settings have a weird noncommittal relationship with moral absolutes as forces, at least in terms of Good/Evil. The Order/Chaos dualism makes more sense in D&D, because it just states there are two opposite forces to which you can spiritually align. But since in most games, the cosmos/moral system itself is generally assumed to be neutral (eg. Ao in Forgotten Realms), applying the labels "good" and "evil" to these universal forces again becomes something the followers of those forces (maybe powerful followers, like the gods, but still followers) decided to do for their own reasons. On another note, you talk a lot about how people are misusing moral relativism, is there any chance we'll ever get a video out of you discussing how to use it properly?
Before I say anything, cool video! It is thought provoking :> I think my hangup with is that I can't really think of an objective good / bad that can exist? I think a good example for showing this is if there's an Objective God of Truth and Honesty. The shaker is that truth and honesty aren't inherently good. Lies of omission are entirely honest, requiring no falsehood be expressed. Telling evil people all the secrets of the good guys is very honest and truthful, but is counter intuitive to the good goals, implicates the teller in the actions of evil, and betrays the trust of their compatriots. If instead of actions we use intent, well the only person who knows enough to judge intent is the author.... In other words, attempts of objective good and evil in a story is meta-moral relativism with the author's moral compass being the basis for it all. And to me this seems much less interesting to have the world bend to this very obvious axis, not to mention a writing trap. Any character who's a moral agent becomes an extension of the author's literal perspective instead of a possible commentary. The world of god hand-waving gets a little too obvious and it's no longer an enjoyable story, because an interesting exploration of the moral complications of actions is hand-waived for repeating the same conflict from the first word. I can see this working in the favor of stories where moral conflict isn't the focus, we just need to know the bad guy's an asshole. But it feels intellectually dishonest to present objective good and evil with complicated characters as a focal point. It's a circular argument to fabricate the moral fabric of a world and point to the actions of characters expressing the fabrication as objective. In case I need to say this - the fact people can disagree on morals is intrinsic proof that morals are relative. Morals irl are not objective, if that's a perspective a reader is taking I don't think we can have a constructive discussion lol.
i want to talk about my favorite villain of all time but i dont want to give spoilers, read or listen to the stormlight archive tho beast villain who's motives i can understand, complete and total monster and you so wish they were just a little different cause they almost seem like a good person while being evil in an almost fundemental sense
Im a new GM and currently run a sci-fi theme world that god may or may not exist Can i ask how to make a convict and absolute villain in the world that moral are just opinion , y'know mordren world . .
Your videos are criminally under-viewed. Your writing is fantastic and always makes me think, and this video is no exception.
@@MossyAntler I appreciate the kind words!
0:45 very real, don't let these people with guilty consciences, shame you. They are just protecting.
Another fantastic video.
I personally LOVE using villains that are straight up evil and strongly believe in their ways, like mad scholars who will do anything to learn forbidden secrets or brutal warlords who believe in the "might makes right" society. It also gives players a fun antagonist to go up against.
Hypocrisy is a key element to making them stand out as villains. While Magneto does believe in mutant supremacy and making a better life for them, in some adaptations he does a some mutants are more supreme than others stance. Of course there’s the whole inflicting the same trauma he experienced on humans, which lead to that one scene in the cartoon that people meme on.
Let's not forget his confrontation with Wolverine in the first X-Men movie. Wolverine called him out on his plan and using Rogue to his ends at the cost of her life. Noting ambiguous about that.
I'm glad I found your videos, it was an off-hand search for a video on faiths/religions in worldbuilding. You're fast becoming a go-to channel for me!
Wow! Brilliant response to your pearl-clutching critics. Well done.
I’m intrigued by your analysis of villain convictions. Thought provoking and stellar DM advice. Thanks! 👍🏼
I'm picturing a slasher movie, where Jason Vorhees is simply misunderstood,
and is one hug away from turning into Barney the Dinosaur. Much nuaned.
The main villain on my 9 year old campaign ended up being a twisted hero. His aim was to "save humanity" in his own way, and he mirrored the party's struggles and quests with his own adventures. They'd often clash while seeking the same power or knowledge they'd need to battle the abject, abstract force of destruction that set both parties in motion. So much did they clash, that their clash of beliefs, and discussion on wether the other's philosophy could make lasting impact in the world became the pivotal point in the campaign, more so than the force of destruction they originally set out to foil.
Lets go fellas! we are blessed with another banger.
What a great argument
@@bananaquark1164 I appreciate it! Glad you enjoyed.
Fen'Harel!!! ❤❤❤ "Many would have died, I know! But afterwards flowers would grow again!"
Good stuff. This is one of the strengths of the antagonists in David Gemmell novels.
Druss!
I 100% agree with everything you said. It's like you took my own thoughts, made them vastly smarter and more coherent and gave them back to me.
A villain's humanity should be perserved to amplify their evil, not to justify it. Also, I love how you argued that understanding/relatability does not equal justification. Just because a villain does things for an "understandable" reason doesn't mean the author/creative endorses such a stance.
I feel like a villain with conviction is incredibly scary. Because it means as long as their out there, there is a threat and time is running out until they achoeve their goals.
They don't even need to be relatable or believe they are good. A greedy slavemaster might feel remorse, even some sympathy for their servant, but their craving for money and the life it brings them is makes it worth it. He would slaughter everyone he knew to get a couple pennies richer because he can buy and sell a man as easily as a load of bread.
villains can also hide in the morally grey and moral relativism, the goal isnt to say they are in the right but everyone is also in the wrong, easier to hide wrong doing and guilt as ive noticed in the real world circumstances
To quote Steven Erikson, fantasy allows us to make metaphors real and experience things we would otherwise find disturbing, through the lens of that metaphor. This is why dragons, evil races, dark magics or vile gods are prelevant in fantasy. People try to relate real world to fiction too much.
Another outstanding video, sir. Excellent work.
For anyone out there that would benefit from my meager input, check out the fantasy series Twinborn Chronicles for some relevant villain case study. Imagine a necromancer willing to destroy the world in order to avenge the homeland he's unable to save from a tyrannical mageocratic empire. Great worldbuilding in general, but this specifically to the point.
Mr Trill, your movie collection is astounding. I fancy myself a cinephile from a family of movie makers, yet there are some gems from European cinema in some of your videos that I neither recognize nor can find with screenshot image recognition. Good on you. LOL
Dammit Trill. Your goblins are just fantasy cats. You hate cats! YOU'RE THE MONSTER!!!
This is why I hold Mr. Freeze in Batman TAS as a prime example of a sympathetic villain done right. He was trying to find a cure for his wife’s condition and avenge himself against the man who wronged him. Freeze was driven by revenge and desperation to the point he was willing to commit acts of evil.
As for the whole “you’re racist irl if you think an entire *fictional* race is evil” argument, it’s moronic.
You look at the Sand People aka Tusken Raiders in Starwars, it was firmly established in the movies and Expanded Universe that Sand People are hostile and xenophobic to everyone. The Disney canon tried to turn Sand People into a Native American allegory and push the noble savage archetype on them. It doesn’t align with what was established because the Sand People had zero qualms kidnapping, killing, and stealing from outsiders.
In Kotor, if you wanted a peaceful solution with the Sand People, you had to dance over all sorts of eggshells just to have an audience with them. Problem is, people cherry-pick that one instance and ignore the full context to justify the idiocy in Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett.
@@Captain-Thievius Mr. Freeze is a very solid example. You feel bad for him because of his situation but that situation doesn't justify at all what he's doing.
Which is funny. Since American Indians could also be xenophobic with zero qualms kidnapping, killing and stealing from outsiders.
❤❤❤ A video like this is compelling because of what has preceded it, even the comments under those previous videos. This video brings together a lot of your effort so far. I'd have to agree with your preamble concerning the comments. In a hobby that self-identifies as storytelling, the need to separate IRL from fiction is part of that suspension of disbelief. I get it; there's a lot of crap going on in the world, and every instance of morality may become an opportunity for outrage. As you said, though, it reflects the bias of the commenter and not the presenter. All too often, the comment section is where knee-jerk reactions and commenting to react and not engage are common. Out of curiosity, have any of the lit. recommendations I've posted before managed to pique your interest? I somehow feel this has been a long time coming. The default to "fun" has now more than ever, at least to me, driven us backward. Deities in fantasy games have just become part of the setting that may have lessened the ideas of cosmic forces affecting gameplay.
Don't stop; keep this going. Material like this is far more interesting, thought-provoking, and engaging than the bog-standard reviews, tips, and listicles being posted.
I appreciate it. I've been considering this and figured there was just no way with my schedule I'd be able to do like a mega video where I go extremely in depth on the subject, so the best way I think is kinda like these chunk sized videos where I explain each part like a chapter building up to the whole of the subject. I'm glad it's come across that way if it has as a viewer.
They definitely have btw, I checked out the D&D&Philosophy Book with the Menzoberranzan chapter and really enjoyed it.
You wear your convictions well, they suit you...
Brutal video Trill
Darth Vader is a good example he has a tragic backstory but is past don't justify his tragic backstory he still is a monster. Just like how Jigsaw also a tragic backstory has but his cruelty can't justify his morals and back story.
Ouch. People need to relax. I like these videos.
Thank you for another interesting video!
I think that despite appearances, most D&D settings have a weird noncommittal relationship with moral absolutes as forces, at least in terms of Good/Evil. The Order/Chaos dualism makes more sense in D&D, because it just states there are two opposite forces to which you can spiritually align. But since in most games, the cosmos/moral system itself is generally assumed to be neutral (eg. Ao in Forgotten Realms), applying the labels "good" and "evil" to these universal forces again becomes something the followers of those forces (maybe powerful followers, like the gods, but still followers) decided to do for their own reasons.
On another note, you talk a lot about how people are misusing moral relativism, is there any chance we'll ever get a video out of you discussing how to use it properly?
Before I say anything, cool video! It is thought provoking :>
I think my hangup with is that I can't really think of an objective good / bad that can exist? I think a good example for showing this is if there's an Objective God of Truth and Honesty. The shaker is that truth and honesty aren't inherently good. Lies of omission are entirely honest, requiring no falsehood be expressed. Telling evil people all the secrets of the good guys is very honest and truthful, but is counter intuitive to the good goals, implicates the teller in the actions of evil, and betrays the trust of their compatriots. If instead of actions we use intent, well the only person who knows enough to judge intent is the author....
In other words, attempts of objective good and evil in a story is meta-moral relativism with the author's moral compass being the basis for it all. And to me this seems much less interesting to have the world bend to this very obvious axis, not to mention a writing trap. Any character who's a moral agent becomes an extension of the author's literal perspective instead of a possible commentary. The world of god hand-waving gets a little too obvious and it's no longer an enjoyable story, because an interesting exploration of the moral complications of actions is hand-waived for repeating the same conflict from the first word.
I can see this working in the favor of stories where moral conflict isn't the focus, we just need to know the bad guy's an asshole. But it feels intellectually dishonest to present objective good and evil with complicated characters as a focal point. It's a circular argument to fabricate the moral fabric of a world and point to the actions of characters expressing the fabrication as objective.
In case I need to say this - the fact people can disagree on morals is intrinsic proof that morals are relative. Morals irl are not objective, if that's a perspective a reader is taking I don't think we can have a constructive discussion lol.
i want to talk about my favorite villain of all time but i dont want to give spoilers, read or listen to the stormlight archive tho beast villain who's motives i can understand, complete and total monster and you so wish they were just a little different cause they almost seem like a good person while being evil in an almost fundemental sense
Im a new GM and currently run a sci-fi theme world that god may or may not exist
Can i ask how to make a convict and absolute villain in the world that moral are just opinion , y'know mordren world . .
First
What's the movie from 2:56 to 3:18?
Age of Uprising