C's and 6's...The Perfect Lathe Chip
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- In this video I'll show the performance of a hand ground High Speed Steel tool with a chip breaker feature, then test a carbide insert tool specifically designed to do the same task. I'll also take a look at how the feed and speed affects chip geometry. Take a look.
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Another good lesson Joe. The guy who taught me back in the day said "you don't want to make hay". He taught me to hand grind tools like the one you used here. Good stuff.
Shit, why aren't there grinding jigs for that kinda thing? Turn those "expensive" or "hard" tooling operations into simple 1$ consumables. I'd think by 2018 those would exist.
This was great! I’ve been applying this all week, and it’s been working out great! Thanks!
Super useful & informative, teaching me stuff no one else ever did. Thank you for sharing!
Thanks Joe, for all the great videos you put out for all that we didn't learn in school. This is great "finishing".
I learn something new every time I watch one of your videos.
THIS IS A ROCK STAR QUALITY TEACHING VIDEO !!!
Joe is one of the best teachers. IMHO
Thanks Guys. Much appreciated.
great little video Joe! Very thoroughly explained.
Science! Great stuff. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Excellent info as always sir. I learn more from you than any other source.
Thanks Joe another great informational video.
Joe i have never run any type of machine but appreciate your pist . Im thinking i will have to try this before i die it is just so cool .
Mate, great job! I've learned so much from watching your channel. Keep it up!
as always joe, looks simple when explained by a pro. The sign of a good teacher.
I am glad to see your video Joe ,you have a new student on your channel ,thank you sir.
Thanks Joe, a lot of us hobbyists watch your vids and work safer & smarter in their home shop as a result.
Rats nest instead of clean chips is especially a problem on small hobby lathes that don't have the grunt to cut that aggressively.
I saw a guy stumbled on a solution to this: he stripped the torx on an insert screw, and to make due he used a socket head cap screw to replace it. Said it worked great for breaking chips.
Nice! I’ve been turning a lot of aluminum the last few days and really needed this! Thanks!
I would love to see more videos like this. As an amateur it's really helpful.
Sensational. It looks like, using a steeper rake and a curved bit is behind what you call a chip-breaker. Good... I considered a second tool bit would show up. You did it right. Three cheers on this great show.
Thanks Joe! Great tips, keep them coming!
awesome teaching as always! thanks joe
Great video. Thanks for the good info
Great info and good stuff. Thanks Joe!
Thank you again Professor Pie!
I have a bunch of 7075 bar stock that I honestly have been putting off because of the speeds and feeds issues of the spinning razor.
The timing of the last couple videos have been just perfect. I now have a much better understanding as to the proper speed and feed to get it done right.
Have a great week Joe! Mine will be much better because of all your help.
Great Video as always!
Outstanding. Glad to help. Don't be afraid of that 7075. In my experience, it will roll over and break much easier than 6061. Good luck and thanks for watching.
Awesome as always Mr Joe go ahead we all like ❤your videos.
Thank you Joe, I did learn something that I had forgotten
Thanks Joe, another great video.
Great advise Joe - impressive results. That was quite a cut on the Al! Must say I find it hard to really get nice broken chips on Al - there again, I don't take over aggressive cuts on my ancient machine.
very very very useful video thank you very much we wish to see a lot of good teachers like you
Thank you.
This brought back memories of when my mother (of all people) was getting her masters in Mechanical Engineering and having to learn CNC (back when I was punched paper tape). I used to go with her to her lab's and watch everyone trying to make C's and 6's with various material and tooling, because they had to hand in the part, AND chips to get a grade.
Also my high school metal shop teacher was always forcing us to make C's and 6's on the lathe, with classically ground HSS cutters. You CAN do it, it just takes practice and nerves of steel (you swear you're going to crash everything).
I love it when a hot C chip wraps its self around the lower lip or or ears.
You have experience.
Michael Egan Yes unfortunately.
I had a red hot, blue, 17-4 'C' shaped chip from a .250 deep cut jump between my finger and the carriage power feed lever right at the moment the tool reached the corner I had to disengage. I stayed with it and pulled the lever so I didn't crash the machine. The chip burned me all the way to the bones in my finger joint. Hurt like a MF. My forearms are so scared from burns on a lathe, when I tan, I look like an ex junkie.
I successfully put my hair on fire with a hot chip I few days ago. Not a fun experience.
Let's you know you're doing the job right 🖒. It's the hot shuffle then the chips fire down your neck and stick between the shoulder blades 😠😠
Good stuff. My old gear can do this on occasion. Thanks for the watch words. Those make it easy to understand.
thanks joe your a good supervisor
when you make chips like that and use the geometry of the cutting tool (inserted tooling/with chip break) you help the heat that is produced by the energy to escape out in the chip.... i love your channel joe pie and i might have to make a trip to austin to meet you man!
Bring Beer.
Nice to see you back infrount of the camera. Enjoyed the video
WOW, never knew that Joe. Thanks for the great tip, once again. Best Wishes n Blessings. Keith Noneya
Love those hot chips. Had a big O1 tool steel chip lodge in the crease of my neck the other day. Dang, that smarts.
thank you for the no frills show .....I like it
No problem!
Absolutely 100% relate to that opening statement.
“To scared to push their lathe”
The moment I did it and found the machines limit (safety). The results thus far has been flipping fantastic!
Love your content . Again. Ha ! Thank you, always learn something new with you Mr Pie 🥧
Glad to help.
I hope they pay you very well there Joe. Top notch machinist! Learned a lot from your videos. Have a PM1228 here and I need to try to push it a little harder and see if I can get better chips on Chrome and Stainless
Thx Joe i learned something right there for sure !!!
Wow, great video! Randy Richards recommended I watch this video am glad I did!
Thats good to know. What forum did he make this recommendation on?
everytime. Something so satisfying about making 6's and c's. I actually got in trouble by my supervisor when he saw me take a .125 doc and a feedrate of .015 while cuttin soft jaws. Hes not a machinist. Just supervises while operating machines. I do the set ups. I need to move to Texas and come work for a real machinist like you Joe.
Great video, thank you Sir!
Very cool Joe. A lot safer than a birdsnest too.Thanks for posting.
Thank you, I learned something today
Joe Pie Great Job machine man. Your doin it. Machinist have the hardest tools
Good stuff JP. I agree with it all as per usual.
Only thing I do different is hog with medium rougher WNMG. .015-0.020 FPR. U just can’t beat the cost of turning using W inserts, and they will produce optimal chips.
👍thanks Joe. Good stuff
As always thanks for your great videos. Please do some learning videos for absolute beginners with different applications of metal work and advice :)
I am glad I subscribed to this awesome channel. It's good to see Al Bundy making a come back.
Peg and the kids are happy too.
Thanks Joe! We used to get some gnarly snake chips when boring stern tubes on ships, 60" bore 0.45 or so on a side. Hairy...they'd cut to the bone and cotterize in one swipe. Stay safe, Will
I've had that happen many times. Hurts like a dog and doesn't even have the courtesy to bleed.
Great video. I have recommended it to several others.
Thank you Sir.
Great stuff, Joe, I'll share this with my students this morning. I like the cross in the top right corner of your whiteboard. Keep up the good work!
I recently lost my english bulldog Ruger. I miss him a bunch.
Well I had no idea, that sucks and my condolences to you Joe.
Thanks Worth. They can really get under your skin without ever saying a word. It was a very tough loss. Still hurts.
I'm very sorry for your loss, I took the sign as a Christian reference- however, for anybody who has ever been blessed with a good dog-it's hard to imagine Heaven without them.
great lesson ,, thanks..
Thank you so much for the video! Could you maybe consider making video about most basic how to get started on a lathe? I have been thinking about getting one for a few years, but since I never seen one in persona I'm a bit afraid / sceptical.
Another good video Joe. I'm not a real machinist, but I'm the closest thing they got at the shop. We have a 15x40 and I have a double-ended TPG tool holder for turning and facing. It has the chip breakers on each end, but I usually end up with long strings. I think I'll sacrifice a view pieces in the interest of science and see how hard I can push things. I need to make up a feeds and speeds chart for different materials anyway.
Please keep the videos coming. I made a tool like yours to set lathe tools on center and use it constantly.
dont forget about push back (with barstock that fits the spindle bore) and stay within reasonable parts extension... even when taking multiple passes, especially with auto feeds
you are awesome; i told my buddy about you; im a old machine builder. he was tool die . i think you forgot more then i ever new LOL
Good one.
Thanks Randy.
I once made a chip intencianally trying that was 43 feet 3 inches long, and enjoyed it. It was out of aluminum 6061.
As usual have learned some new
Was always impressed with my 10 meter long curls.
Time to rethink.
Douglas Clockmaker we could start a new Me too group 😣
Guilty Here too.
😂😂👍
THANKS FOR SHARING!
Dude! Your art is fantastic. You got isometric view down pat.
OK now I'm nervous; I'm going to grind a high-speed steel tool, and make some C's & 6's ( I hope)... Thanks for the super info!
Let me know how it works out.
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO
Joe, I love watching your videos but I have to confess that I watch them mostly for the "idea of the technique" as I do not have access to large tools. I've only been seriously dabbling with machining for about a year and am limited right now to my Sherline manual equipment. But recently I had to whittle down a 2" piece to .4something". I really liked the finishes I get with HSS tools but I ran up against the rats nest problem in spades trying to turn that piece down. I then put a carbide insert tool I have and worked on pushing it and could almost get chips like you show. What would happen is that it would start out a rats nest but by the end of the cut it would be spitting out little chips. The carbide tool is a 1/4" TCMT and I was turning a 1900rpm at about .01 deep per side. I tried both dry cutting and I have Boelube. Never thought to try WD-40. I woundering if it is even possible to get the chips like you describe on smaller machines. Even this 2" piece I was using is rare as I usually work smaller diameters and am thinking bending will be a problem trying to push it like you describe to make the chips. Maybe a lathe follower???
Another really informative video Joe, thanks. But you need to learn the magic words to get the focus right. (As per AVE).
You can also also undercut the leading edge of a drill with a dremel and a diamond bit for a quick resharpen (if the center point is still good) and create a chip breaker at the same time. I've done it to get though some nasty gummy materials. Also on the lathe if your not turning right up to the chuck you can make a chip deflector that mounts to the tool post to keep the chips off you. C's and 6's rock they heatsink the tool and the part and are much nicer if you have to shovel. They're also less likely to break a conveyor. Avoid polyester clothing as they will melt it.
thanks Joe! great video. would love to see you make a video on parts cosmetics! I do a good job of hitting my sizes but would like more info on making the parts apperance better / more professional!! thanks again for a
Thanks Joe
Very Cool!
Thanks again for passing your knowledge un to us. I do have a request can you do a video on positioning the height on these tools I seem to have a bit of a rough time figuring out if I need to go up or down to get right cut Thanks again!
Pablo Gamba he does have a video about tool height on the lathe. Just look through his channel. I think he made a piece of scrap the exact height to the center of the spindle. He explains it pretty well.
Great information Joe - thanks. Now, I need to force the machinists at my new job to watch your videos. They make strings all day long and cannot understand why I shake my head. They seem to think being a machinist is only hitting dimensions. I tell them they have to hit the dimensions QUICKLY, with as few tools as possible.
Baby steps.
Some material is less cooperative than others, but if all is well, push it and break those chips. Believe it or not, sometimes the only difference is coolant.
@@joepie221 aaaah yes...coolant! Another topic that seems to be ignored by many.
Beautiful, all hail the `hmm that's a tough one to fill in..
AvE knows the incantation to get a camera to focus.
Its a nice camera, but too much tech isn't always good. A manual focus mode is probably in there somewhere.
haha I think exactly his phrase every time I see a video where they have trouble getting focus
reprapmlp nice to see another AvE fan here... Did you come here from r/Skookum
If you want to know ask Joe😁 couldn't agree more, however as they say everyone's a hero in ally, could you give us some wisdom with hard steel using HSS, there's a few people I would to meet in my life time and your one of them so please don't think I'm trying to criticise, I always look forward to videos cos I know I going to learn something, keep up the good work Pie man.
Regards Alan.
I've got a couple videos of making some C's and 6's, not in aluminum but steel and stainless.
If you increase your nose radius you can get those chips with lower depth of cut. Only issue is keeping feed up and working to an edge.
I took advantage of an offer to spend 8 weeks at our local Vo Tech in a course for advanced machining. With 2 weeks to go the instructor asked if we had any questions, I told him I wanted to break the chip in 316 SS during finish cuts, he ignored me. The last week I took a piece of 316 SS shafting in and asked the same question. He confiscated the shaft and said I might not be able to break that chip. I was disappointed to say the least. I can do it on heavy cuts but not on finish cuts no matter what insert I have tried.
Thank you for your informative videos. I know nothing about machining, but find it fascinating. Would you mind explaining why Cs and 6s are preferred? Something to do with heat or tool life?
C's and 6's are preferred as the shavings/chip's are not a continuous strand that can be picked up by the rotating job or chuck. They are short individual pieces.
Long strands if picked up can slice you to pieces or grab you and drag you into the rotating machine/job.
Just remember machines don't make mistakes, people do. You should be fine if you follow that rule. Cheers from John, Australia.
My favorite chips are nature and rippled with salsa... :)
Sometimes it takes longer to find a sweet spot than do the actual job... ;)
Thanks for the tips! Definitely expanded my boundary of knowledge. With regard to steel, what chip color would you consider ideal? I haven't pushed any cutter to C/6's yet, but I'd like to know a "safeword" when I start making cuts.
Any chip that turns blue is pulling heat off the work piece and is normal. I start to worry when they are gray.
Thanks Joe. Yet another great video but I have a question if I may. I try to use feed and speed tables for new materials but they don’t cover depth of cut. Other than the safety aspects is there any advantage to C/6 chips in the standard of finish or productivity? Would the trial and error based result ever conflict with feed/speed formulas I wonder?
Sure wish we learned this in class... Birdnest City over there...
Great Info. I just got myself a lathe and am pushing it to get those chips. So far using bits of unknown steel to practice on.
If you have an unknown steel how do you find the correct speed to cut?
I've found this one peice will leave a great finish if run on the fast side but the feed must be 0.017" and still no c's or 6's. If i run at 2/3 the speed and feed at 0.006" then i get a beautiful shower of those nice chips but the finish sucks. Depth of cut is about 0.1 to 0.125 each case - Using Carbide inserts
Awesome I've never had the nerve to take big bites like you demonstrated. I struggle with getting perfect finishes on various materials, faster speeds & slower feeds with light cuts is my go to at the present still not the best. I've used both HSS & carbide various tip widths, no "consistency" when last pass to spot on size wanting the perfect finish, winds up it is what it is 😢, using a Monarch CY16, only 500+- RPM lathe speed available. maybe you can give me a few tips or do a short how to video, i'm sure there's others that might struggle with consistency also. Happy New Year, thanks for all your efforts & time making videos, I've learned tons 😁
My neighbor has been a machinist for over 40 years. He told me if you get it close, just use sand paper for the rest. It may take a little longer, but you can always take away from what you are making but cannot add to it. That's what I practice. I'm using one of them chinese 7x14 mini lathes 0-2000RPM. My steel RPM is 225-325 depending on the steel and aluminum is around 325-375. Can't go by the machinists handbook with this tiny machines unfortunately. I don't take massive cuts because I don't think my machine has the rigidity to do so, but I've made lots of things on it within specs and it just takes me a little longer is all. When I hit the lottery I'll buy a 30 thousand dollar lathe and a bridgeport milling machine lol.
i try to get chips like that but we work with mainly tool steels. i have to try not to go through inserts quickly. i run coolant on all my tools the majority of the time
Joe, great video and I always learn something when I watch your stuff. When you say "if that tool would dry out, it would probably just break off" , what do you mean by that? Keep the WD40 on? Keep the temp down? Can you elaborate?
If a flowing chip cold welds to the top of the tool, the material behind it has no place to go. It forms a dry dam and it doesn't usually end well. keep dabbing on a coolant to keep and material transfer to your tool surface to an absolute minimum.
thanks for the video. great work as always ;o) any idea, if it's possible to break chips from 318 steel? might have a bunch of that material comming in my direction later this year, which is definitely going to be a hassle...
I can break 316, 318 has to be similar.
I used to think bird nestin beat dwellin and yellin, but this beats all....Go Joe!
It does, but this is the next level.
I have no problem getting the proper chip on more powerful lathes, but I don't have the same luck on my 13" South Bend lathe at home. One hp (1 1/2 hp 3ph motor running on single phase) and belt driven, when I apply the proper feeds and speeds, it'll stall the spindle. The magic combo is around 014, .04 deep, 300ish rpm on something in the 2" diameter range. Thoughts?
You're ballsy man...I never go over 700rpm on my bench top lathe..and that's for finishing cuts lol I'm a newb machinist though just started a few months back.
Curious what kind of lube you use? Anything other than Tap Magic you recommend?
What i seen from experience working in a small shops in 80% of the time you will never have to take such a deep cut on a long distance to make it worth wile to mess with the settings.Machining costs money and material so usualy you will take rod size that is closest to your measurements.Sometimes you will take maybe 1 or 2 passes to get to the size you want but even that isnt worty of time unless you make 500 peaces which you will rarely do.
Love the R.I.P to Ruger on the board
He was a great dog. I miss him.
Great Video as always Joe!! I can remember when I was a young boy (7 or 8 ) my Dad would come home from work and take his work boots off outside and one day I asked him why he always did that?He told me to go look at the bottom off his boots and they were COVERED ( and cut up like mince meat) with chips cut deep into the rubber & they looked exactly like "Cs" and "6s" I"ll never forget that!! because to this day that is what I remember most was the shape and SHARPNESS of those blueish straw colored little curls of metal on his boots LOL _ Thanks for the video and the memory!
Much appreciate you videos.. Do have a question, I recently purchased a Kennametal CTGPR 123B, which I was told was the direct replacement for the KTGPR 123B. The insert that I am using is Kennametal TPG 321 KCU10. It is a one sided insert with out a chip breeaker, (smooth top). In viewing your video on C's and 6's I noticed that your turning tool had a added on chip breaker on top of the insert.
Did this come as part of your purchase of the tool holder or an item you added after the fact? Please advise me where you obtained the breaker and any information I may need to obtain this item. Thanks for your help and keep the great videos coming.... Richard
That insert topper/chipbreaker is normally use with the TPG insert. It has been on that tool since I bought it. Check Dorian tool holders. they seem to be the closest thing to this holder. www.grainger.com/category/indexable-turning-tool-holders/indexable-turning/indexable-tools/machining/ecatalog/N-1d36Z1z059by
Thanks Joe for this very informative vid. How about rectangular and diamond shaped inserts? They seem to have chip breaker grooves, but my experiences with aluminum were disappointing, even following your advices. Is this an intrinsic issue with those inserts?
It may be the groove itself is for harder materials. Look for an insert with a bigger radius type groove, not just that small edge slot. They do pack up quick on aluminum.
@@joepie221 Thank you, Joe. I'll have a closer look.
Nice art work, wish I could draw. Two things, 1) we put chip breakers on our tools in the late '60s in HS Machine Shop, but they would not let us run those old machines like that; 2) I always wondered why people were using carbide on aluminum when HHS works great. Especially when they don't run it hard enough to get the chips to break. - Cannot find that tool holder on the Kennametal site?
That insert topper/chipbreaker is normally use with the TPG insert. It has been on that tool since I bought it. Check Dorian tool holders. they seem to be the closest thing to this holder. www.grainger.com/category/indexable-turning-tool-holders/indexable-turning/indexable-tools/machining/ecatalog/N-1d36Z1z059by
Thanks
A minor burn from a smallish chip can only be better than a potentially nasty gash from a long stringy one. g00167015 mentioned the machinist's dance, lol but as someone who's done a fair bit of overhead welding... I've taken tiny spatter burns like a champ to get that weld done. but the beauty of welding over machining is if you let go of the trigger it stops doing what it's doing... a long stringy chip with a rotating motor isn't so forgiving.
The bad chips are the blue ones that jump on the machine control handles just at the moment you have to disengage the feed. Burn deep or crash the machine.
Great lesson, what about long and stringy chips when drilling on a milling machine or drill? Especially when i have already drilled a pilot hole my next drilling op usually produces long stringy chips. Any tricks to reduce the size of those chips besides backing off the quill pressure to manually break the chip?
Believe it or not, sometimes a more aggressive and longer cut will break them. Its material specific.
Great tips Joe, do you think that those chunky little hot chips take more heat away from the workpiece? Seems to work out that way on my cnc router when I really push it hard through aluminium.
Yes. A heavy broken chip like that will definitely pull heat from the part. On steel, a blue chip is a good chip.
Would a higher cutting speed help if you don't want to break the chips but they are breaking anyways even at 0.05mm/rev? My SCLCR holder with some CCGTs always breaks the chips on aluminum but it breaks them on the freshly turned part and not on the tool or themselves.