Plane Bevel Ups and Downs | Paul Sellers
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- Here Paul Sellers discusses the differences between various jack planes in action to compare cutting performances.
To find out more about Paul Sellers and the projects he is involved with visit paulsellers.com
That 'plane cam' was a real treat. Very satisfying!
I have said the same sentiment as what you said in your introduction. If you look at the amazingly beautiful woodworking produced by workers who did not have the benefit of the centuries of experience that we have today. Add to that the fact that many of these tools were invented by these everyday workers. These hand tools were the predecessors to automated mechanized told we have today. We can set up and load a conveyor belt to keep feeding boards into a planer then walk away and go for coffee. That eliminated much of the fatigue the had to deal with. What we have today is only posible because of what was done before. Think of what those craftsmen could do with the tools of today.
I love that plane cam!
+UreaSmith Mesmorizing. I don't know of anyone else who has done this camera angle on a vid. Way to go Paul Sellers.
+UreaSmith Jonathan Edwards? Not a woodworker, but a soulworker.
Superb camera work! Love it when Paul goes "ooooohhh" when the plane takes a shaving!
Paul, you are always a pragmatic, reasonable voice--important for novices and learners who can't separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to sales language, trends, and the dominant thinking of the day. Your assumption that the technology of 150 years ago ought to be good enough for us is spot on. Today, we see new tech as the quick fix for every problem, including our own lack of experience. Cheers!
He is a TRUE Craftsman
Mr. Sellers, you have just upped the standards of woodworking instructions again. Clear explanations as usual, but the closeups are simply golden. Thank you.
A plane ride with Paul Sellers at the stick. What a treat and who would have predicted the landing. Marvelous! My father’s old Lakeside (from Montgomery Ward} just got a new life.
Paul, this video is extremely helpful to me. I picked up what appears to be the exact same wood plane at a flea market last weekend for $3. It's in much better shape than the one you have in the video. I think whoever owned it stored it and never used it. After watching this video and the one on restoring a wooden plane, I now feel more confident. I didn't even know how to hold an older wood plane until I saw these videos. Thanks to your helpful content, I now know how to hold it, sharpen it, restore it and will now give it a new and useful life in my shop. Thanks again for the fantastic work you do.
I bought a Stanley bench plane at a yard sale for $1 that was fairly beat up but still had a flat sole and all its original parts. I put a few hours of restoration time into it, sharpened the iron and made a precise tool out of my dollar investment that works like a champ! I think this video is a fine demonstration that one need not spend a lot of money to get a quality tool and my comment is meant to echo that. Thank you for the excellent and informative demonstration!
When I got into Clay Pigeon shooting years ago and was discussing getting my first gun, I said to a friend who shot that I would love a Purdey. He said buying a 100k gun will not make you a better shot, and that is true of a lot of people of different trades, they think buying the best will make them the best. Skill and competence will always come first, tools and technology second. Then you hit on the other problems associated with the tools, the setting up and sharpening of them. A lot of people will never understand the mechanics of the tools they use, and will keep making mistakes, I respect Paul, Rob Cosman and a lot of others on RUclips especially. Watching Paul and listening to him explain about the tools encourages me and being on a limited budget since being made redundant, I have managed to accumulate a lot more tools.
In Paul's hands even a plastic plane without iron would cut the same as the fancy ones.
its funny because its true.
I could watch the plane cam footage on repeat all day.
The incredible close-ups are very effective. In other videos, you talk about the sound of the plane and that really helps me know what I'm doing. Love the planes and your invaluable information. Thanks for sharing.
I used to make a little money making stuff, but I was hack. I never made enought to keep myself. It seemed that I had a job to support an exspensive hobby. I believed someday I would make enought money to have big shop filled with power tools. I had to give it up, and left a box tools at my parents home. Time moved on, and it became apparent that I needed find an occupation to feed myself when I aged out of my current employment. I enjoyed these videos, and they made me believe I might beable to pick up with wood working, where I left off. I tried to regain the tools I left with my parents, but after a few decades, it becomes confused as to who own something. There are dozens of video showing how to fix up old hand plane. After the third time buying something off ebay, and having it either un fixable, or missing parts, I refused to buy anything I couldn't examine first. I tried to pick up items from people selling them from home. On the weakend I would drive to people's homes, and examine items they were selling. In most cases the items were damaged, missing parts, or companies I've never heard of. Under the eye of the seller, I did buy a few items, but it was always a mistake. All this time my wife would ask, "What are you going to use that for?" A paper weight my dear, a paper weight. After driving for forty minutes to a man's home, and looking at Stanley hand plane with a crack in the mouth, I tell him, "I can't use this. It broken." This seem to offend him, and he tells me I'm wasting his time. and I should pay him something for wasting his time. I tell him I'm giving him nothing, and he starts chest butting me. After I get out his home
Watching this made me wonder why perform the test on such an easy board? Although this shows that all these planes are similarly competent for work on the edge of a board I would like to see how they compare on a variety of planing task such as, end grain, flattening the face of a board and interlocking grain.
Also thinking about the wood plane I am going to go into the shop and laminate a piece of veneer to the bottom of one of my #4 Stanley planes to see how it feels in the cut.
Love the addition of the camera on the tool. Great visual and editing was perfect. As usual Paul's presentation was spot on. Thanks for the post.
What a great idea with that veneer on the sole. Tell me if you’ve done it and how you like it. Cheers
Because PS is about making woodwork accessible. Iroku isn't the easiest but not the hardest, but likely the hardest a hobbies might encounter
This is the way the wood should be treated. Simple, elegant and with passion. Good job master. My regards from Slovenia.
I agree with you 100% the hand work hundreds and hundreds of years ago all by hand is so amazing I am in awe looking at the pieces.
My grandfather had several wooden planes. No idea what happened to them but I wish I still had one now! I have seen them at car boots so may get one. Great shot looking down the plane irons. I just love to take a piece of ROUGH timber and plane it absolutely smooth.
Mr.Paul,True!what you said in the introduction that the carpentry craft was at its zenith.Glad to see wooden plane.It reminds me that my maternal grand father was a carpenter in Kolar Gold Fields(KGF) in British India.He had wooden plane.All his tools were made in England.He was trained and worked as carpenter under British Engineers.Great memory.I am 70 years old now.
Takes me back to my roots. Really liked this video. Some planes are better suited to the stock than others and your personnel geometry will also figure in this too. This is no nonsense woodworking, well done Paul.
When ever I have a question I can always count on you to help answer it.. Your the best Sir Paul
Just bought my first jack plane. I am pretty excited to get to work with it. It will be my first adventure getting away from the jointer and dewalt planer. Thanks for the tips in this video and your other video's about hand planes.
Paul,
Love your videos. However, even though the bedding angle of the Veritas and Lie-Nielsen Bevel Up Planes are 12 degrees, the cutting angle is the angle of the blade bevel, PLUS the 12 degrees bedding angle.
Out of the box, the Veritas Bevel-Up Jack Plane is 12+25 degrees, or a 37 degree cutting angle. If you install a 37 degree beveled blade it will have a cutting angle identical to the Stanley Bailey types with a normal frog (45 degrees). The primary benefit from the Bedrock style bevel-down planes is the ease of adjusting the position of the frog for adjusting the blade opening clearance. I doubt their stiffer body design makes much difference. Additionally, both Veritas and Lie-Nielen bevel up planes have very easily adjusted mouths, requiring to tools or disassembly for adjustments.
Any well sharpened and even moderately tuned plane with the proper mouth opening will yield gossamer shavings.
The great advantage of the Bevel-Up planes is you can keep different bevel angle blades at the ready for different tasks from end-grain to highly figured woods. Additionally, there is no chip-breaker iron to adjust or maintain.
My plane collection spans from a $5.00 garage-sale #4 Record (Bailey style) to a $400+ Lie-Nielsen #7. The big difference is the quality "out of the box" plus the advantage of a Bedrock type design for ease of mouth width adjustment. My #4 "Footprint" is my favorite smoothing plane, using its original blade and chip breaker. It cost $27.99 in 1986.
I sold my #4 Lie-Nielsen bronze-body #4. A BEAUTIFUL tool, but its tote was too cramped for my hands. It made my hands ache to use it. I don't have that problem with the Bevel-Up smoother designs from Veritas and Lie-Nielsen since their totes are placed well back of the blade and adjuster.
Keep up the great work!
Steven Jaynes
Making firewood in a dozen or more exotic species since 1962
Whereas the bed angle is 12 degrees and I did say that the bed angle was plus the bevel angle, I believe that the 25 degree bevel angle is stated to make out that the combined angle is lower than the bevel-down planes. Otherwise why change? The edge fracture on a 25-degree bevel is substantially weaker and especially so on the now touted harder steels. That means that resharpening is indeed more frequent than with a 30-degree bevel with regular carbon steel. No one seems to mention this in presenting their statistics but in practice, at the bench and in daily work, a 25-degree bevel is less helpful in my opinion.
Hi Paul,
I watched your presentation because I was trying to verify the angle that a blade needs to be ground to. When I went back to my blades, to get them to an engineering shop to have them reground/machined, I found on all of my Stanley blades; some manufactured in USA and some in UK ; all had printed on them the suggested angle of 25 degrees.
All the presentations I saw spoke of other angles.
So I thought I would mention it for what it's worth; 25 degrees seems to be a standard
Thank you so much, Paul, for this tutorial! I own several (Stanley) planes, but have never been taught how to use them, and have barely learned how to sharpen them. I now have confidence in the potential quality of the tool, and expect that any lack of performance is my fault, not that of a bad tool.
I use a Stanley No. 5 Jack plane all the time and it works great for me. I paid $15 for it. I also have a Kellogg wooden Jack plane that I enjoy using. I have to use what I can afford. Perhaps one day I'll be able to afford the more expensive planes but for now I use what I have and am glad to do so. Thanks for dispelling the "more expensive the better" myth.
Great work Paul and very well presented. Old planes do work and they work very well. There's no real need for anyone to invest big bucks in order to enjoy/participate in working wood. At the end of the day, it has to be down to personal choice, but less money spent on tooling leaves more to invest in timber and skill acquisition.
Seriously impressed by that plane cam. Never seen that done before :)
Thank you so much for this, and your others, down-to-earth videos! As it happens, I`ve just picked up a Stanley Bailey No5 Jack plane from ebay for £25, and can`t wait to put it to work!
Amazing close ups and shooting , thank you very much Mr. Sellers. As always great tutorial!!
My word, what a lovely and inspirational video. Thanks Paul!
I LIKE IT!
I can´t believe how easy you make it look. Thank you for all the knowledge you give, I’m learning so much from you, I Thank you for that!
Cheers from Argentina.
thanks mr sellers. it has been and it will be the acquired skill in the hands of the woodworker that make handtoos work. the modern planes come with the promise that will make a craftsman right away the hardware store door. it takes a lifetime to master the craft and there`s the FUN of it, to enjoy the journey. hope after 20 years i can call myself one good apprentice at my craft.
Paul you are a wonderful craftsman.
Dear Mr. Sellers, thank you for the video! I see other videos recommending the low angle jack plane for more figured grain. Here you are comparing them to a narrow piece of wood. What if you are planing a broad top, figured grain, and the plane just keeps getting stuck...? Thanks in advance, I do hope you will read this... all the best!
Your ñarration is much more than demonstration. You never show the bevel position under chip breaker
I have 4 wooden planes that I bought off Ebay and restored. They are wonderful to use. Almost not enough friction with the wood against wood. Funny thing that. Ialso have an old Record metal plane, a few new Veritas, Woodriver, and LN planes. All are wonderful to use. Love all of them, bevel up and bevel down.
I will say it's nice to sharpen the bevel up planes since it's one less step not having to deal with the chipbreaker. Saves that extra 45 seconds for another sip of coffee. :-)
Paul ,thanks for this I am total agreement with your philosophy on older vintage planes. All of mine are at least 70 - 100 years old and work like a champ. I do not own a modern plane except for my medium shoulder plane. I also have a nice selection of older wooden planes as well. The newer planes are way out of my price range and budget.
Thanks so much for showing what an "old" plane can do, when it is properly sharpened and adjusted.
I would like to see you make a video on plane set up, and sharpening.
I have a few planes, but if am ashamed to say that not one is set up to make a shaving as beautiful as you are getting.
Thanks
HH
thanks for enlightening me..this is the 1st time I've seen anyone using the wooden planes of yesteryear; they are normally in the background shot of well kitted out workshops.
How great a video. I'm starting to lean more to hand tools after 35 years of amateur woodworking. Feels better in the long run.
This video showing that in the hands of a master they can make anything work. I was around someone who was quite good in tennis and played a game with a wooden racquet against someone with the latest and greatest technology of a racquet. Of course the better player won even with inferior equipment.
Well presented Paul. Woodworking should be accessible to everyone. Money is neither the limiting factor or guarantee of success. Basic tools guided by skilled hands will serve a craftsman well. Thank you for leading the campaign for skill building not money spending.
P.S. The plane mounted camera shots were fantastic.
Good point on old v.s. new woodworking. I always say the more advantage we have, the less we seem to do with it. The mayans and Egyptians could build mind blowing monuments. In the case of the mayans, without even steel! Now we build buildings that embody enormous amounts of mechanical energy and they start falling apart shortly after they're finished. The more spoiled we are with the advantages in work and processing the more spoiled we become viewing everything as too hard or beneath us if we don't have a machine to do it.
Skillcult meets PS. This is a great day for the world!
SkillCult - I agree w/ your statement to a large degree but in my opinion the Mayans don't even compare to the ancient Egyptians. The Mayans weren't building mind blowing monuments/temples/structures 3000 to 5000 years ago but Egyptians were. Also, the ancient Egyptians who built the great pyramids, the Sphinx and the many other amazing structures to exacting tolerances evidenced in millions of perfectly square hand chiseled 1-ton blocks all done without steel. The ancient Egyptian era is the early & later bronze age. Ancient Egyptian wood work is far-far superior to anything the Mayans did, in my opinion & many others as well.
Maybe we have machines now, but remember the Egyptians who built the pyramids where slaves.
@@stratocactus Apparently scholars have changed their opinion, They now think they were freemen who when the harvest had been gathered went to do their duty and work for the Pharaoh, who housed them and their family, fed them and gave them expert medical attention including pinned bones and even more advanced stuff like brain surgery, until it was time to plant the next seasons crops. Considering how close minded and set in their ways Egyptologists are, its taken a long time for the idea that slaves built the pyramids to come into question. To be honest its all opinion because we were not there, and they did not leave any records of how the pyramids were actually built.
@@iamrocketray Oh ! That's a very interesting theory. Do you have any source ? I'd like to read about it :)
Thank you Paul!! I love the bevel up planes for the low center of gravity😀
Thank you sir. Great close-up shots!!
Many thanks Paul for demystifying woodworking. It is never just about the tool. It is about the tool and your ability to use it. They say it takes ten years to learn anything, so I only have some six years to go before I can approach paul's exellence
As a retired dentist, I can say that, at least in my case, that there is no end point to learning. I thought I had a good understanding of hand planes a few years ago, but looking back, I understood very little. I am still learning. Paul is a great teacher. It's hard to fathom the experience bundled into 50 years.
This vid is 7 years old. I'm amazed.👍
I love the shavings camera view.
Plane Cam! that is bloody excellent! Very Clever and Very Cool.
"(...) and i can pick up a plane from that era and go all the way through history, decade after decade after decade, and see that plane, the value, the efficacy of that man's engineering it still stand against all the best today... [CHUUIIIIIIIIIIIII] WOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUHHH!!!" Love that way serious, knowledge and cheerfulness can be met into someone! ^^ I think this guy deeply loves what he does. :)
I think people have started recognizing that since this video was made, because it's really not easy anymore to find a stanley (or record) jack plane on ebay for 25£ :)
My first handplane I bought was a Hong Kong style bamboo laminate plane for 25$. I had to do a little work on it, flatten some tool marks in the blade opening and the sole. Yeah you gotta use the mallet to adjust it, but it slides like butter and takes super skinny shavings.
paul i agree your correct in saying our forefarthers had lesser tools and made better woodwork . i have a full set of marples planes from 3 to no7 and guess what a 50 year old plane works just fine .
please keep up you no nonsense way of work and let us all inspire the younger generation to the virtues of hand tools .
as a northern soul fan all i can say is keep the faith.
your awesome man! so much learned here! just got my Stanley 71 1/2 router plane and going back to your sharpening video. aint got to my Stanley no. 4 yet but its coming. playing with Japanese planes too and like them as well! I'm newbie just having fun so thanks for what you do sir!
Excellent demonstration and explanation. Thanks.
muchas gracias paul!! cuanta sabiduria en esas palabras. estoy aprendiendo mucho gracias a vos. saludos de argentia!!
That's gratifying to see. For some of us, spending more on a plane than I did on my first car is just out of the question.
i am glad i watched this... i have wondered about spending money on a fancy plane but never have after 30 years... my old stanley's still work beautifully so will now figure out what else i would rather have lol.
Amazing tutorial as usual. what hypnotic shots. perfect after few shots of prime v.
Thanks Paul for the great video. Am i wrong in thinking that a 12° bed angle with a thick 38° iron is approximately equal to an older Stanley? The steel in the bevel up iron doesn't know its only fractions of an inch thick, so that bevel could be a 6" long bevel as far as the wood would be concerned. So what's the difference? Thanks
I love it when you (Paul Sellers) gets excited seeing the spiral curl of the wood shavings turn out... I laugh because I do the same. My wife tells me I'm enjoying my wood porn. Ha ha, please don't be offended. I have great respect for a master craftsman as yourself. Always a pleasure to listen and watch you work your magic.
Mr Sellars,
I have several wooden moulding planes. Many have curvilinear profiles on the blades- coves, ogees etc. I find these to be very difficult to sharpen. If you could do a video on how to fettle these I'd appreciate it.ThanksFrankB
PLANE CAM!!!
great stuff. I just tuned up and started using planes properly 2 days ago. Don't even have a named brand, but two "usa" marked ones. Joy.
Thanks Paul for taking the mystery out of getting a decent plane.
Dear Paul, Stanley Sb4 Single Blade Plane 1 12 034 used for and why does it have two adjusting screws on the blade(like the spoke shave) thank you for all your master classes. Kind regards John.
That wooden plane is like the Japanese hand planes that are still in use today and are amazing.. oh and so is the plan action cam shot.. so good
ZodiacProd
Start planing difficult wood and you will see why metal ones are superior. They have the same problem as the bevel up metal plans. When they start to tear out, there is little you can do about it besides messing around with different grinds. On a bevel down metal plane, simply adjusting the cap iron (chip breaker) will take care of the problem.
Paul, love the video. A few thoughts:
1) From what I know (this coming from the owner of a set of #3-8 Bailey planes I've restored myself), low-angle bevel-up planes excel when working with difficult, swirly face grain on figured wood. Just about any sharp plane will work when planing the edge of a board unless it's wild grain, in my experience. I don't work much with figured wood, and I've never not been able to successfully smooth a board with my bench planes, so I've never seen the need for a modern low-angle bevel-up plane.
2) Any chance you'll do a detailed, step-by-step video of tuning and setting up a bench plane? I'd love to get your thoughts on how to mate the cap iron to the cutting iron, since that's an area I've struggled with quite a bit with my planes. I sometimes get a bit of chatter or gaps between the two right at the edge, and can't always close that up successfully.
With all due respect to Paul, I would be more convinced if he had used wood with difficult grain
Great video, thanks. I love my Juuma (Quangsheng) low angle jack for it's versatility but it can be a pain to adjust the blade. Bevel down planes are a lot easier to handle in my opinion.
In my experience as long as it is being planed with the grain, and no difficult grain is to be handled, yes indeed the results are the same, without exception. For me the difference can be told for instance by reversing the direction of planing, and go against the grain, because there are situations where that is inevitable. There I already can tell some difference between the results produced. And as I plane most of the time pine (and not premium class pine, but knotty low quality pine) there is a great difference to be noticed on areas around knots, or other difficult, or twisted grain.
And ... the jobs a good 'un!! Spending serious amounts of money on a tool will not give us the skills we need to learn to do the work. That, is what we have Mr. Paul Sellers here for - to teach us to teach ourselves what we really want and need to know, to work wood the way we would like to!
love the way u talk while u work.....sounds like u r SINGING :)
I bought some Chinese made Bedrock type planes (#4, #5 & #6). They are very nicely machined and have thicker irons and they are pretty heavy. I am very satisfied with their quality and performance, but I have to admit that I still reach for my regular Stanley planes (#4 & #5) more often than not because they are lighter and less tiring to use and do just as good a job. This pretty much confirms your own experience which is admittedly much more relevant than my own.
This and other videos of Paul's vigorously prove wrong all the BS being pushed today that we need $300 hand planes with thick, bevel up irons and the need to spend hours tuning and flattening them at that. Such ridiculous BS. I regularly cut shavings to 1000th of an inch with ebay and flea market stanleys, and craftsman brand planes (millers falls are great too). I do think there is a downgrade in quality of anything starting in the 1980's with US made products and alas we hardly make anything today that I can either afford or isn't crappy (or both). Also, I actually have better results on endgrain with bevel down planes and regular angle block planes as opposed to low angle. Stick with Paul if you like truth and reality instead of hype and fluff.
I AM ONE OF THE GREAT UNWASHED.
To me looking here is a gift. It's tough when you are beginner. , I look at these discussions and they impress me but I do have a problem with some of the advice I see on line. Evaluating older and newer and cheaper with more expensive is ok, but
I am sure most planes can be directed to produce good results. My first planes were new Stanleys. I COULD get them to produce (or if the product was not good it would was likely be my fault.
My problem is those planes failed at continuity. Parts could loosen in the middle of a stroke!
The blades wore out quickly, settings wandered and fairly often were not square.
That's the real downside, to me.
I agreed with you until you tried to say you get better results on end grain with a regular bevel down plane. Now I know you’re lying and just a contrarian. Physics don’t lie buddy.
I agree that old Bailey's and the like are fine planes, but this test doesn't really mean much. Its a best case scenario where pretty much any type of half way competent plane would be perform well. And that's exactly what we saw.
Put these planes into more difficult situations, such as highly figured wood or end grain, and you'll start to see the different geometries and cutter sizes show differences. There's no one single end all be all plane, and because of that each plane style has a place. Which one(s) you should have in your cabinet is really going to depend on what type of work you want to do.
Bulldust
What you will probably find is that the low angle bevel up planes can’t cope right wild figured grain.
That was an excellent demonstration. What I am curious about is how the low angle versus standard planes perform when going across the grain as in the end of a board. Also, how do well do they handle undulating grain or areas around knots? Seems like they all work well with straight even grain wood.
Hi Rick. There is a lot of fake news going out about bevel up planes being superior to a bevel down plane. Whatever you can do with a bevel up plane you can do with a bevel down plane. However there are idiosyncrasies with both planes that may give a periodic advantage and only experience can tell you which one to reach for.
what type of oil does paul sellers use on the bottom of his planes. i see him re oiling the bottom of them here and there when i watch his videos. let me know if anyone knows
3 in 1 oil.
Paul is having way too much fun planing that board, with all those planes!!! And, my hands are getting all cut up from learning to hone my irons!!! LOL... :-)
Hi Paul,
the closeups are really great!
What about using a plane on endgrain or shootingbord? I thought, there should be an advantage for the bevelup-plane because of the angle.
Thanks a lot in advance!
As far as feel goes there is a difference and the tighter machine tolerances of the better made planes means less slack and slop. Amazingly though, no, there is only minimal if any difference in performance results. As far as the surface finish is concerned the results are identical and the bevel down planes are lighter in use. If you do spend time on the bevel down Stanley and fine tune it for an hour you will be more than happy with your £20, $20 #4 Stanley or Record plane.
*****
Thanks a lot for your quick and detailed response!
I have had to flatten the sole of a Stanley plane as it wasn’t working. I used a worn out belt on my edge sander. I find the tote on my Stanley’s a bit narrow. I have a Qiangsheng and it is far more comfortable but rather heavy. My favourite planes now are a wooden 4 with a wide open throat, thick blade and no cap iron; and two home made wooden planes with Veritas ironware. I find the lateral adjuster on these a bit short. When the irons are sharpened they all produce shavings equally well. For me it’s a matter of comfort. I have never had a Veritas complete plane so I can’t comment, but other Veritas stuff I do have is really top notch. The handle on your bevel up looks rather peculiar. One large drawback to my Stanleys is the sides not being 90* to the sole, which precludes use on the shooting board. The wooden planes are ideal for shooting.
What I don't understand about bevel up/down planes is that the angles seem to be the same. 12deg veritas with bevel up 30deg iron = 42deg, bevel down bailey pattern at 44deg is basically the same angle.
You can get a 25° iron. Well, if you need it.
My guess is having the mass behind the cutting edge keeps the tip of the blade from vibrating. When force is applied to the cutting edge of a traditional plane, the area where the bevel meets the plain body acts as a lever and fulcrum causing microscopic deflections to travel up and down the iron which could cause the cutting edge to "jump" above the level of the cut. On bevel up plane, the iron's mass is mainly in a horizontal position, so any resistance at the cutting edge would lead to greater compressive forces which really won't alter the level of the cut.
So if you're cutting along the grain, and the cutting edge has just a bit of fluctuation, it will most likely settle back down into the cut because the wood fibers are running horizontally and the blade is "lifting" the fibers.
If you're cutting across the grain (end grain), and the cutting edge fluctuates, the wood fibers are all vertical and the cutting edge is less likely to settle back down because there is no lifting action. The fibers are all being snipped (as opposed to lifted) at the very end and the blade. Because of this, the blade disengages with the cut much more quickly.
Because, yeah, there isn't much difference in angle...just a WAG.
Yes, it's supposed to be that low angle bevel up planes work better on end grain or wood with grain going crazy all over the place...
LV actually come standard with 25 dog so in fact you will be planing at 37 dogs.
where do you get your music, I love it
Hi Paul, hope this question reaches you . I've been led to believe that if the shavings are not full and are serated its due to nicks on the blade yet I see you have this result testing the planes and you don't mention it . What's your view on it does it matter on not ? My opinion is once the finish is smooth that's what counts. Thanks Paul.
Paul
I've always admire your videos, your patience is consistent to deliver an interesting video for all.
Interesting enough that on your shows you never ever mentioned any use of Japanese tools i.e. saw, hand plane or chisel. These tools also have been used for hundreds of years and actually didn't change a bit, like the old wood body plane you show at the beginning.
It would be interesting on your part to look into it, or maybe I'm asking for trouble here...?
Thanks.
The problem with Japanese tools vs Western tools is the ease of resharpening yourself.
You almost have a point there, Japanese saws have tempered teeth (most of them), therefore, no sharpening needed, as for chisels and planes and they will outlast any western saw, the tempered edge of these tools are far superior and last longer than western ones
I have two Kana planes and didn't have any problem to "re-hone" the edge in less than 5 minutes to an incredible razor sharp edge. I just wait to hit the Lottery to get me a chisel set, I know where to get crappy ones, good tools made from good steel are expensive.
So, as I mentioned, you almost have a point there.
My question to Mr. Sellers was because he never ever mention Japanese tools, let me tell you Sir, there are some "remarkable" Japanese craftsman and amazing complicated joinery, let me leave you a link here: www.finewoodworking.com/item/46468/john-reed-fox-the-uncompromising-craftsman
Best, R.
This may be an answer.
paulsellers.com/2014/03/questions-answered-3/
Hi Paul:
Can one just strop a plane iron/chisel to refresh the cutting edge to avoid going to the cutting stones every time? I've read both opinions but trust yours.
Excellent and infomative videos, thank you.
The old boy I learned from maintained that " there is a special circle of hell for folk who stand their planes on their irons" ;-)
I used to feel the same until someone pointed out that you can easily ding the blade with another tool when set on it's side
It appears thecreal difference is not so much in the tool, but in the skill and experience of the person who sets it up and employs it.
What do you do with all the shavings and the sawdust? Do you throw it into trash or do you use it for anything else (like mulch for plant beds etc. )
Never a truer word spoken.
A sterner, and perhaps more pertinent, test would be to turn the wood around, and plane against the grain. Then the bevel up jack would come into it's own. It would cause less tear out, cutting at "York pitch" or higher. The thick blade and low bedding angle is far less prone to chatter than the thin ironed bevel downs in these circumstances .
I can't argue with results, but I am reluctant to accept the reasoning. The frog on a Bailey stops a fair bit short of the end of the blade, so there is a bit more air behind the edge. I think maybe that is the most important reason they chatter more on end grain. The angle is essentially identical. And the blade is thinner, true, but it is backed up with a chip breaker torqued down by the edge. So I can agree that some planes have less chatter than a Bailey, but I don't think it's necessarily attributable to "bedding angle." More likely, in my guesstimation, it is due to bedding support that extends closer to the edge, and/or heavier casting, overall.
We have all done a bit of whittling I'm sure, what sort of angle do we hold our knife? Obviously it is one quite close to the direction of the force applied. Have a go at whittling with the blade at 45 degrees to the direction of cut. I'm guessing you'd find it might chatter a bit. I do not suggest a well tuned bailey will inevitably chatter, but that at 12 degrees the bevel up is much the more stable.
The bailey planes are the finest planes of any type that I have ever used when it comes to being a user of planes. They are capable of everything a plane will have to do in a normal work shop. The irons grind and sharpen easily, the cap iron is designed *perfectly* to eliminate tearout and, the orientation of all of the parts of the plane make it so that you only get tired and never sore in the hands, etc, and to think that he came up with the design without other similar planes around is astounding.
The wooden planes work a treat if they have a cap iron and the user learns to use the cap iron, but they do come out of the cut fairly easily when their irons dull if they are single iron planes.
Thank you, Mr. Sellers! The Madison Ave. guys did a number on folks when they planted the lie: "You get what you pay for." What most people take from that is, higher priced goods are always better. You demonstrate that it's not true.
Oh boy you are my woodworking master 👏 , like your explanation .
What about end grain in pine or cedar? That's the true test of a plane.
Yes i was searching down the replys looking to see if anyone else had asked this...
Thanks for this, I really enjoyed it. Must try the planecam trick. But alas, the denizens of eBay are wise to the value of old planes. You'd be very lucky to find a £25 Stanley now that wasn't rusty as hell with a sawtooth blade.
I live in hope, though.
Here's a thought: there are many cheap knock-offs on the go these days. It would be interesting to compare one with a "genuine" place.
Amazing
I don’t think we should dismiss any old technology as it has been proven they work. However, nor should we dismiss anything new either, most things have to progress to survive. It’s all about open minds.
The more I start to hands on... the more I listen closely to what Mr Paul is saying.
Would you consider making an old fashioned box plane? Perhaps even videoing the project?
On your wood plane. Please comment on the species utilized for the base and how it was "lapped" and how to maintain.
Trebor, I am afraid I don't quite understand the Q.
*****
Mr. Sellers, I believe he asked (1) what species of wood the sole of the wooden plane was made of, (2) how it was made flat, and (3) how does one maintain the flatness of something which continuously expands and contracts.
Having gone through you postings quite a bit, complete flatness is unnecessary, right?
I just picked up a Bailey 5-1/2C because I did not want to spend $350 for a Veritas bevel up Jack. Got $70CDN into this one and I am happy with that. I will clean it up and sharpen it. I expect good things from it. From a site it appears to be made between 1924 and 1939. Old enough it does not have a frog adjuster screw.
like the new music
Many of the newer high priced planes can be weighty affairs. The one advantage that I've noticed with wooden planes is that they are less tiring to use. Obviously not relevant if you aren't planing much wood but if you have an hour or more of planing tasks it does start to become a real factor.
So, does the orientation of the bevel matter as far as the grain? Bevel up or down can be used for the same purpose?
You will be able to do much more with a bevel down and a bevel down will do everything a bevel up will do as we show in the video.
Thanks Mr sellers
***** Hi Paul. Your demonstration is misleading since you are only using the planes for one purpose and it is not advisable to draw such broad generalisations. I am happy to use any type of plane for edges as you did. However, as soon as I plane across the grain (traversing), the lowest cutting angle is going to cause the least surface damage. In this situation, a BU plane is likely to be preferred. Further, I can plane interlocked grain with a BD Bailey pattern but must then use the chipbreaker, which can be fiddly, especially for novices. Alternately, I can use a BU plane with a high cutting angle, which requires minimal setting up. Recommendations in using these planes should also include ease of set up. The BU has fewer parts and is easier to do. The BD plane is easier to adjust as one planes. I think that the the promise of BU planes is not that they are better than BD planes (that is too general a statement as the rage of BD planes is wide), but that they offer ease of use and a wider range, which is very desirable for those starting out.
Erik, with a bevel-down plane the cutting angle is the same as the bedding angle. With bevel-up planes the cutting angle is that of the bed plus the blade bevel. This combination often sums to a more obtuse angle than a standard bench plane's cutting angle. It creates an effectively stronger edge less likely to chip in difficult grain.
Stanley, IIRC, defined the "block" plane, saying the planes were designed for "blocking in" work and especially cutting end grain. That said, as far as my experience goes, and that is NO A LOT compared to folks like Paul, the chief element in cutting difficult grain is blade sharpness, and technique. You adapt to the nature of the wood which Paul emphasizes. However, with a shooting board, a bench plane with a very sharp blade, and a heavy plane body (I accelerate the plane and then just push enough to keep it moving) and you can take amazingly thin shavings off end grain oak planks that would defeat a one handed block plane.
Thanks for the explanation JW.
This is great.