I have built my own stands and rack with beautiful local and solid walnut. Now I know that these cabinets are much less resonant than many metal/mdf-spiked counterparts. But speakers are different: stable boards and strong sealed joints aren't easy or cheap to do for me. I'm very pleased to hear a logical explanation (consistency) that doesn't try to discredit solid wood for the wrong reasons. Thank you.
I get it, thanks. I made my own speakers once, back in -86, a wee bit bigger than yours, made of MDF, all the panels were damped with 4mm lead metal sheets epoxy glued to each internal surfaces. Two way, Seas elements and crossover. Very nice speakers with an incredible punch
MDF is much more stable? I agree, as long as they don't accidentally see any kind of moisture, impact or being moved across the living room more than a couple times. With respect, I believe there are many ways of damping solid wood enclosures to meet and in most cases exceed the dampening properties of MDF. But that's just my opinion on the subject. That said, I love the channel and will always be the student. Great job with the videos.
Mass production, speaker and MDF! I was in a room of a audiofile, speakers were inside bricked floor, walls and top! NO MDF or wood! The best music I ever heard! Had over 5000 German Pollydoor LP's, that was long ago, he did not stop collecting til lhe died!
In my experience, hardwood is far more durable (stiffer and more water resistant) than MDF. The resonances inherent to hardwood are, also in my experience, not audible in smaller cabinets. The highest-end speakers are hand made and individually-voiced. Consistency for mass-production is simply not the necessity that it is for speaker companies that do high volume sales. Admittedly, MDF is cheap and easy to work with. It also is consistently neutral in its resonances. I love some speakers made with MDF. However, that does not mean that it is "superior" as a material for a hand-made speaker system that will be individually voiced. My favorites have small, 3/4" hardwood cabinets! Dismissing hardwood out of hand only makes enjoying the benefits of different speakers designs more difficult. Your loss, friends.
Great explanation. With the popularity of DIY and people doing their own crossover upgrades at the moment. Sometimes it's necessary to remind people nature is a random phenomenon.
I completely get DIY…I myself enjoy refurbing vintage equipment. It’s just that you sometimes find a total lack of technical understanding, mired in myth or voodoo!
I quit buying pre-made speakers many years ago . The veneers were made of paint, vinyl or some sort of plastic laminate usually end up falling off , chipping off etc,, after some time of use and abuse by vacuum cleaners, kids and wet things. So I started building my own solid wood speakers for the longevity the reliability. After some trials with tiger Maple, Red Oak, paint grade Hickory and Poplar... I actually found that Pine sounded the best.
Well, we use high quality real wood veneer on our speakers. I agree that for a one-off pair solid wood is an option. Interesting that you found pine, which would be the most resonant, to sound the best.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters despite using R13 in those... It seems like, the more dense the wood was, the more of a tiny type sound was being produced by the cabinets at certain frequencies. Best way to describe it ...is like putting a driver in a paint can.
I am dubious about audibility of copy-to-copy differences of solid wood speaker in a proper (double) blind test. Any data? It would imply that L/R speakers of a solid wood pair are sounding different. Mine don't. Maybe measurable, but not audible. Solid wood is not equal to solid wood. Canadian softwood (pine, ...) is different from French oak. Guestimated 1" MDF is different from 3.2 cm solid oak. The formaldehyde (known carcinogen) in MDF glue off-gasses for years. I very much prefer my solid oak speakers. From a European manufacturer, so also "locally sourced". Yes, it take some aging of wood, it takes some careful craftsmanship to get good joints, but at least some manufacturers (e.g., PearlAcoustics) do it extraordinarily well. I very much appreciate the advantage for a manufacturer for a moderately mass-produced item, but please acknowledge that with a bit more effort, boutique shops can make excellent solid wood speaker cabinets. Let's not even start on problems with veneer, such as delimitation leading to rattle, unsightly dings exposing MDF sawdust, etc. Generally, I like your content. This however fell a bit short. Sorry!
HDF is good for some things…baffles and braces are a couple. An entire cabinet made from HDF actually has some pretty severe resonance issues…less internal damping of the material, so MDF is better for the bulk of the cabinet.
MDF or Birch plywood seem to be the best, solid wood wouldnt be any better Im guessing it might be worse., I built a set of speaker where the woofers are enclosed in cardboard concrete form tubes, works great.
I appreciate your videos and nearly always agree with you or learn something. However, your statement that you can't build multiple speakers out of the same plank of walnut (or other quality hardwood) and get the same sound is really a stretch. I agree totally with you regarding the benefits and reasons for using MDF, and mass made speakers would be stupid expensive using all solid wood. I've built many custom speakers fully out of hardwoods, and I measure my finished products to be identical to the point that you could not distinguish one from the other with the human ear. just my 2 cents.
Thank you. I agree, and I believe I made the point in the video, that solid wood would be fine for a pair or two of DIY speakers, but it’s out of the question for even low-volume production. I think you would probably agree that just the differences in aging and storage can make big differences to how a piece of wood cuts or machines. The same can hold true for the acoustic properties.
Any chance you could do a video talking about the pros/cons of the VP160 vs VP180, or more specifically the pros/cons of the dual tweeter design on the VP180. I have an old VP150 that I am going to trade in soon and after looking around on the internet trying to research I am even more confused. A lot of people seems to think it's crazy to have two tweeters in general but especially horizontally and separated. I am debating just getting the VP160 to avoid the issue, but would like to know if there is actually an issue to be avoided. Thanks!
While I don’t think that the tweeter layout on the VP180 is an issue, many have a problem with the size. Which main speakers are you going to be using with this new center channel?
@@AxiomHomeTheaters Currently I have a pair of M80's with M3's for surrounds and rears. Atmos speakers are not Axioms. I may eventually trade in the M80's towards some M100's. Size isn't really a concern, just performance, sound stage, etc.
lot of info in the speaker cabinet video,real wood vs an engineered wood hdf or mdf. i felt that i wanted to know more about the manufacturing of Axiom speakers, for instance show us the top cabinet ,you know in furniture grade cabinets /speakers. The approval of my significant other ,for better or worse is just a fact of life. and the only speaker in most living rooms has to have a high wife acceptance factor. now i own three axiom products the hp5 and sub love the sound signature performance , hmm not located in living room, any ways I'm a big supporter of axiom speakers to my friends and family, just would like more info on axiom products and why we should buy more of it
I’m not sure what those manufacturers are going for…but our opinion is that loudspeakers are not musical instruments and the cabinet should not be contributing acoustically to anything other than the original input signal from the amplifier. Also, just like two pianos will never sound absolutely identical, no two speakers made from “piano wood” will be either.
HDF is useful in some areas, like bracing or being used as part of a constrained layer system with MDF for baffles, etc. It’s too resonant to be used for an entire cabinet, in my opinion.
Even ancient clay tablets mention audiophiles are able to count the number of rings the tree had just based on the way the music sounds. To them it's all timbre.
A well constructed and engineered speaker will sound great made out of any material. Solid wood looks awesome but it’s expensive. So they use MDF to maximize profits. “John Heisz is solid wood good” video on RUclips. Check it out.
You check RUclips to get various responses to the same question. Don't tell anybody the state of RUclips for information. I found the women's dirty underwear make the best cabinet stuffing. Smell of music you might say
![[Limbus Company - PV] Chapter.7 - Oblivion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VUpkXPkvoxU/mqdefault.jpg)
I have built my own stands and rack with beautiful local and solid walnut. Now I know that these cabinets are much less resonant than many metal/mdf-spiked counterparts. But speakers are different: stable boards and strong sealed joints aren't easy or cheap to do for me. I'm very pleased to hear a logical explanation (consistency) that doesn't try to discredit solid wood for the wrong reasons. Thank you.
You’re welcome. Stands/racks are a different animal than loudspeaker cabinets in some respects.
It's great to have a real professional speaker designer explain all these subjects. Thanks Andrew.
You’re welcome, glad you enjoyed this one.
Thanks for a clear and well informed explanation!
You are welcome, glad you enjoyed this video, and thanks for taking the time to comment.
I get it, thanks. I made my own speakers once, back in -86, a wee bit bigger than yours, made of MDF, all the panels were damped with
4mm lead metal sheets epoxy glued to each internal surfaces. Two way, Seas elements and crossover. Very nice speakers with an
incredible punch
I've had my 5.1 set of Axiom speakers for 20 years now, since I was about 24. Never ever considered replacing them.
Thank you for such great feedback, much appreciated!
thts why companies make shiter equipment, it last to long
Hmmm I wonder if our two ears really identical? Because you know, it is organic material
Always wondered...... Now know. Thanks
MDF is much more stable? I agree, as long as they don't accidentally see any kind of moisture, impact or being moved across the living room more than a couple times. With respect, I believe there are many ways of damping solid wood enclosures to meet and in most cases exceed the dampening properties of MDF. But that's just my opinion on the subject. That said, I love the channel and will always be the student. Great job with the videos.
Mass production, speaker and MDF! I was in a room of a audiofile, speakers were inside bricked floor, walls and top! NO MDF or wood! The best music I ever heard! Had over 5000 German Pollydoor LP's, that was long ago, he did not stop collecting til lhe died!
That’s a very unconventional system, but interesting to hear about it.
Wood has character. So it is good for bespoke speakers
In my experience, hardwood is far more durable (stiffer and more water resistant) than MDF.
The resonances inherent to hardwood are, also in my experience, not audible in smaller cabinets.
The highest-end speakers are hand made and individually-voiced. Consistency for mass-production is simply not the necessity that it is for speaker companies that do high volume sales.
Admittedly, MDF is cheap and easy to work with. It also is consistently neutral in its resonances. I love some speakers made with MDF. However, that does not mean that it is "superior" as a material for a hand-made speaker system that will be individually voiced. My favorites have small, 3/4" hardwood cabinets!
Dismissing hardwood out of hand only makes enjoying the benefits of different speakers designs more difficult. Your loss, friends.
Great explanation. With the popularity of DIY and people doing their own crossover upgrades at the moment. Sometimes it's necessary to remind people nature is a random phenomenon.
I completely get DIY…I myself enjoy refurbing vintage equipment. It’s just that you sometimes find a total lack of technical understanding, mired in myth or voodoo!
I made a set with the front baffle made of Granite, worked great because stone is very acoustcally inert
I quit buying pre-made speakers many years ago .
The veneers were made of paint, vinyl or some sort of plastic laminate usually end up falling off , chipping off etc,, after some time of use and abuse by vacuum cleaners, kids and wet things.
So I started building my own solid wood speakers for the longevity the reliability.
After some trials with tiger Maple, Red Oak, paint grade Hickory and Poplar... I actually found that Pine sounded the best.
Well, we use high quality real wood veneer on our speakers. I agree that for a one-off pair solid wood is an option. Interesting that you found pine, which would be the most resonant, to sound the best.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters despite using R13 in those...
It seems like, the more dense the wood was, the more of a tiny type sound was being produced by the cabinets at certain frequencies.
Best way to describe it ...is like putting a driver in a paint can.
@@NBC_NCO That’s one of the reason’s we like MDF…along with the consistency for manufacturing, it has good self-damping.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters yes I agree with you on the acoustics.
@@NBC_NCO 👍
Thanks for the education!
Glad you enjoyed this vid!
Can you show some objective measurements to substantiate your assertions. While I respect your opinion I need something more concrete. Please advise.
Concrate and marble stones are great too 🤠🇫🇮
I’ll tend to disagree here…those materials are actually too hard with very little self-damping.
What about cement or stone speaker cabinets
instead of mdf can you use HDF?
I am dubious about audibility of copy-to-copy differences of solid wood speaker in a proper (double) blind test. Any data? It would imply that L/R speakers of a solid wood pair are sounding different. Mine don't. Maybe measurable, but not audible.
Solid wood is not equal to solid wood. Canadian softwood (pine, ...) is different from French oak. Guestimated 1" MDF is different from 3.2 cm solid oak. The formaldehyde (known carcinogen) in MDF glue off-gasses for years. I very much prefer my solid oak speakers. From a European manufacturer, so also "locally sourced". Yes, it take some aging of wood, it takes some careful craftsmanship to get good joints, but at least some manufacturers (e.g., PearlAcoustics) do it extraordinarily well. I very much appreciate the advantage for a manufacturer for a moderately mass-produced item, but please acknowledge that with a bit more effort, boutique shops can make excellent solid wood speaker cabinets.
Let's not even start on problems with veneer, such as delimitation leading to rattle, unsightly dings exposing MDF sawdust, etc.
Generally, I like your content. This however fell a bit short. Sorry!
Think guitars the wood is resonant it rings and amplifies the sound mdf or hdf is inert.
I'm curious, why do you guys use MDF vs HDF? Is there an appreciable difference between these materials?
HDF is good for some things…baffles and braces are a couple. An entire cabinet made from HDF actually has some pretty severe resonance issues…less internal damping of the material, so MDF is better for the bulk of the cabinet.
Acoustically good quality MDF is the best choice.
👍
MDF or Birch plywood seem to be the best, solid wood wouldnt be any better Im guessing it might be worse., I built a set of speaker where the woofers are enclosed in cardboard concrete form tubes, works great.
A baffle of a very inert material combined with an MDF or plywood cabinet can work very well.
I appreciate your videos and nearly always agree with you or learn something. However, your statement that you can't build multiple speakers out of the same plank of walnut (or other quality hardwood) and get the same sound is really a stretch. I agree totally with you regarding the benefits and reasons for using MDF, and mass made speakers would be stupid expensive using all solid wood. I've built many custom speakers fully out of hardwoods, and I measure my finished products to be identical to the point that you could not distinguish one from the other with the human ear. just my 2 cents.
Thank you. I agree, and I believe I made the point in the video, that solid wood would be fine for a pair or two of DIY speakers, but it’s out of the question for even low-volume production. I think you would probably agree that just the differences in aging and storage can make big differences to how a piece of wood cuts or machines. The same can hold true for the acoustic properties.
Do you think those those minute differences are detectable by the human ear??
Speakers made of ideal materials are also the most impractical in a home environment, difficult to manufacture and, well, dont sell very well :D
Mine look and sound great 12 year later!
That's fantastic to hear!
Any chance you could do a video talking about the pros/cons of the VP160 vs VP180, or more specifically the pros/cons of the dual tweeter design on the VP180. I have an old VP150 that I am going to trade in soon and after looking around on the internet trying to research I am even more confused. A lot of people seems to think it's crazy to have two tweeters in general but especially horizontally and separated. I am debating just getting the VP160 to avoid the issue, but would like to know if there is actually an issue to be avoided. Thanks!
While I don’t think that the tweeter layout on the VP180 is an issue, many have a problem with the size. Which main speakers are you going to be using with this new center channel?
@@AxiomHomeTheaters Currently I have a pair of M80's with M3's for surrounds and rears. Atmos speakers are not Axioms. I may eventually trade in the M80's towards some M100's. Size isn't really a concern, just performance, sound stage, etc.
@@Darth_Duane For the best soundstage and blend with M80s or M100s, I would recommend the VP180.
lot of info in the speaker cabinet video,real wood vs an engineered wood hdf or mdf. i felt that i wanted to know more about the manufacturing of Axiom speakers, for instance show us the top cabinet ,you know in furniture grade cabinets /speakers. The approval of my significant other ,for better or worse is just a fact of life. and the only speaker in most living rooms has to have a high wife acceptance factor. now i own three axiom products the hp5 and sub love the sound signature performance , hmm not located in living room, any ways I'm a big supporter of axiom speakers to my friends and family, just would like more info on axiom products and why we should buy more of it
Thanks Don, we’ll look into a more detailed video in the future showing the actual cabinet manufacturing side.
Some speaker manufacturers claim "piano wood" makes their products acoustically superior. Can you comment on this assertion?
I’m not sure what those manufacturers are going for…but our opinion is that loudspeakers are not musical instruments and the cabinet should not be contributing acoustically to anything other than the original input signal from the amplifier. Also, just like two pianos will never sound absolutely identical, no two speakers made from “piano wood” will be either.
Is there a big advantage over HDF to MDF?
I've heard that mdf is better because it is less resonant than hdf.
HDF is useful in some areas, like bracing or being used as part of a constrained layer system with MDF for baffles, etc. It’s too resonant to be used for an entire cabinet, in my opinion.
Even ancient clay tablets mention audiophiles are able to count the number of rings the tree had just based on the way the music sounds. To them it's all timbre.
An audiophile joke…priceless! 😃
Thick mdf is best.
Agreed…as long as you keep an eye on the internal volume of the enclosure!
What is this aboot...
My friend you are negative 😣
Real wood has resonance, quality speakers have real wood veneer. Better speakers might use high density fiberboard.
A well constructed and engineered speaker will sound great made out of any material. Solid wood looks awesome but it’s expensive. So they use MDF to maximize profits. “John Heisz is solid wood good” video on RUclips. Check it out.
His tests were flawed, but mainly how would a speaker company be able to achieve repeatability using solid wood? I don't think they would be able to.
@@ytj22 if his tests were flawed, stay off of RUclips for any data.
You check RUclips to get various responses to the same question. Don't tell anybody the state of RUclips for information. I found the women's dirty underwear make the best cabinet stuffing. Smell of music you might say