I think if I were a bike fitter the first thing I would do is ask the customer to do a 2 minute plank, and if they couldn't, I would say not to pay for a fit until you can as you're wasting your money! You're quite right.
What a hollow, crap take from nobody from the Internet. What plank does that can be translated to fit on a bicycle? Even recumbent riders do not possess anything even remotely close to planking position.
I could post an essay here, but the first comment is right. Being able to plank at least for 1 mins is a fundamental life skill. In terms of bike fitting a stable core will solve a multitude of issues that less astute bike fitters will charge you a fortune to ‘fix’. They would just be band aid fixes though, because the underlying issue would still decline.
@@tweed0929 it's not about being close to a plank position, it's about the core strength that being able to do a plank represents. That said, I don't agree with the initial contention that until you're fit, you shouldn't get a fit. A better approach would be a fit, some education on developing core strength, and then a re-fit following an appropriate adaptation period. It seems woefully inappropriate for a fitter to just send someone away, potentially suffering from some significant issues, just because they're not really strong at the moment.
So good that you address this. I started to bike back in the mid Seventies and back then we only go information through magazines. We were not flooded with information. My feeling is that a newbie fits the bike to the standards of Eddie Merckx or Bernard Hinault they are pretty well off. A lot of the bike fitters I have watch on RUclips are overcomplicating stuff. Instead of starting with general and standard rules, they start with corner cases. Perhaps making money, but bad for the customers. Thanks for a good and informative RUclips channel.
A well reasoned approach. It is you PLUS your bike. Neither can fix the other. I learned the hard way that it takes as much work off the bike as it does money spent on the bike. These are great videos…. Thank you
Exactly. If they are a crap mover on land, no amount of perfect bike fitting will solve their issues on the bike. You need to get stronger in the right places off the bike to complement the bike fit. And as you get fitter and stronger your fit will change.
So glad you made the point that the human body is actually really adaptable. Another point, a bike fit is the starting point, not the end point. It's permanently ongoing, and changes as the months go by.. The bike fit gets one in the ball park, then it's refinement from that point on...
I agree to a degree... It is true how the body responds to the bike evolves over time. Still, everyone has different ranges of adaptation and for some those are narrower too. To expand beyond the range often requires a degree of conditioning and prehab not everyone can accomodate. Not to mention hours spent riding to get used to a a position on the edge of the range. Many fellow riders don't put enough hours on the bike to 'adapt' to a slightly different position. And a wrong fitted bike will never feel right either (reach too long, saddle too high, bars too wide, etc). I am highly flexible and light on the upper body. Riding in agressive positions isn't much of a problem and a higher bar drop was necessary to eliminate shoulder tension. I would never considered this unless I had a bike fit, but I was told is very common in highly flexible people. Nevertheless, I had no end of knee issues until I went to 155 cranks and my feet go numb and very painful at the metatarsals without my current insoles. I also had ongoing upper back tension due to the reach being too long, so a new bike was inevitable. There was no adaptation possible to either of these issues in my case, no matter how much strength and conditioning and prehab I did. Even my town bike has shorter cranks, otherwise my knees go awol. I still have minor refinements to do on the saddle department, but changing the bike setup was key to do 6h rides without issues.
Some great points there! Like you alluded to, the first question would be on the persons ability to perform the chosen discipline, i.e. their 'fitness'. Thus, before any ride analysis, a Q&A followed by a MOT should be performed.
Proprietary steer tubes and seatpost clamp systems make fitting tough. Riders tend to adapt if they give a setting a chance. Over training will eventually cause problems too.
100% agree not all bike fitters are equal . But surely part of the problem is people buying the bike they want and not what they need . (Mid 50s business man over weight cervelo v5 think5hes a pro 🤔) more upright relaxed geometry would suit them better but they have cash to burn . Why when you buy a new bike you don't get to choose bar width crank length and stem length this should be taken into account at the point of sale . Instead of 1 size fits all . I ride a small giant but need wider bars 28" inseam but 48" chest At 5ft 7" can't be the only 1 top content as Always Paul 💪
I never had bike fit and feel perfect on my bikes, but it was a lot of trials and errors and part changes to get to this point. With experience you get more of a sense what each small change does so it gets easier with each new bike. IMHO saddle setback is critical because you have to get balanced on the bike, all else is more or less matter of preference and type of the riding you do.
The thing with tinkering is it takes time. Why not get a better baseline with a reputable bike fitter and go from there if you want to tinker later on? It takes out the guess work.
I forget who said it, but one of the things to look for going into a fit is whether or not the fitter includes a follow up or not. If not, run away, find someone else! 16:25 is excellent, and it'd be nice if more channels covered how to interact with the bike.
Good Pedalling technique, and good posture is rarely discussed. I’m glad you brought that up. It seems to be skirted over too quickly that riders know what it is.
Thanks for the video. It's useful and right in time, made some notes for myself. I would add that cycling is connected to lifestyle more than it may seem. Especially when you go harder, faster and feather. How you sleep, how you work, going or not to the gym will affect your cycling. So talking to people and understanding the person is critical.
I think I was very lucky to find a local fitter that was actually competent. I wanted to do a fit when I started cycling, got in touch with the bike shop that was offering the service, and was basically told that if I'm new, I should just ride whatever bike I currently have and play around with things like saddle height, reach, etc. myself and get in touch after a few months - when I build up my fitness sufficiently, know what sort of riding I like, and actually identify any issues. Fast forward 15 months, I was planning to buy a new bike and wasn't sure about what size frame to get, and also had a very specific comfort issue on longer rides. Got back in touch with them, explained the situation, was told to come in. Fit took half a day and we spent at least 2h assessing my strength, mobility, flexibility, etc. before I even got on the bike. Unsurprisingly, was advised on the frame size and told I'm getting a good frame for the sort of riding I do, and the root cause for my issue was quickly identified as suboptimal shoe choice (normal width shoe but narrow feet). Funny how I thought they must know what they're doing, after they told me to not waste their time initially.
Cycling for 12 years. Never been on bike fit. Feel great on my bikes - i have mtb with 175mm crank and gravel + road with 172.5mm. I do about 2 hours of yoga every week and i think this is key to feel good on the bike. I used to have saddle sore but after trying out brooks cambium, it solved the problem completely. Worth to mention is ice. Anyone who feel any soreness in muscles or joints - ice pack or ice bath is fantastic cuz it stops inflammation.
You are very lucky. I would not be able to ride a bike hadn't I gone to a bike fit. Not sure I agree about the ice though. If cycling is the cause of ongoing joint soreness, perhaps it is worth addressing the cause, rather than nursing injuries?
I've never had any issues (touch wood) with my bikes (now 54). I've learned a lot from a lot of different fitters in the last year (Neil Stanbury, the guy on Cade etc) that I didn't know. I've always found my best starting point is always the saddle (height, tilt, setback) and critically can I comfortably ride it no handed....
Excellent video. As someone who is now just a leisure cyclist in their twilight years, going to and from the cycle cafe for breakfast. What I am looking for is the most comfortable experience I can get using my repurposed mountain bikes. Efficiency is my last consideration and less efficiency equals more exercise per mile. A bit like the old train heavy, race light, only without the race. Do you have any experience in extracting a magic carpet ride from full suspension MTB used only on the pot holed roads of the English countryside?
Thanks for another very thoughtful video. I wish your shop was in my neighborhood. Getting my first bike fit at LBS soon. Looking forward to some help with numb hands. The back pain I get when riding is the same as I get when driving for a couple of hours, running the vacuum or leaning over the engine compartment of my car. Might need a physio for that one.
Funny, have been thinking of a Bike Fit, though this is due to knee and saddle issues on my new bike. The old to new Emonda has a slight geometry change, so I didn’t think it would be an issue. Both my bikes were set up the same, but I was uncomfortable on the new Emonda. So I decided to play with saddle and stem. Small changes over a few rides and now no more issues on saddle and I think my knee issue was me over training on Zwift in February and it not healing properly. Today I thought how comfortable I was on the bike and hopefully after 2 weeks off the bike my knee seems to be ok, so I don’t need a fit… fingers crossed😁 Cheers for another informative video😊👍
Thank you. We see a lot of ‘Zwift pain’ it’s a very static and repetitive exercise. Remember to stretch and do mobility and strength exercises too. Consider it the antidote to Zwifting.
Really interesting video - thank you. I spend far too much time looking at new bikes, and framesets, without any real idea about whether any of them would suit me. I've looked at my existing bike geometry, and compared to other bikes, but it's so hard to make a choice just based on charts. However, my current Rose bike was bought online and, other than adjusting the saddle height and stack, I've ridden it as it came out of the box. Maybe I've been lucky, because I've had no problems, or issues. Likewise with my previous bike, which was once around the car park and take my money. However, with the cost of bikes now, I'm far more hesitant about my next purchase.
I went to a podiatrist recently for shin and foot pain ended up with custom orthotics. I tried them in my cycling shoes and had to put the seat post up 5mm! But my foot now feels more stable and “connected” to the pedal.
Never had a bike fit because I never felt having any issue. I ride a race geometry bike but with the stem turned upwards (it was already installed so at the shop). After watching a few videos of where cleats should positioned, I tried moving them all the way backwards. I compensated that with lowering the saddle. And the end result was very annoying numbness and pure pain in my big toes. Moved the cleats back to around midway between the ends of the first and the fifth metatarsal, no pain anymore. That reminded me of these videos where bikefitters sell one-size-fits-all solutions. Hopefully people will be able to spot if something is not working for them. Now a trend seems to be shorter cranks, haven’t tried but I think it also might work for some people but are not a universal solution to a problem that is not universal.
Shorter cranks were definitely a game changer for me and many other shorter riders I know, owmen especially. Even 165 cranks are not standard in smaller frames, so I'm not surprised so many make the swap. Years ago I went to 165 when there was nothing shorter. It was much better, but I was never 100% in hindsight. Two years ago I tried other lengths during a fitting session in a jig and 155 just felt right for me as soon as I started pedalling (I mentioned constantly tight calf muscles and dodgy left knee). The main issue was my already too long bike became even more uncomfortable over long distances, so I decided to get a new frame. It was a difficult decision financially, but It was unbeliavable how right the new bike felt. It came out of the shop with the right stem, bars, etc for me. I needed minor tweaks on handlebar height (lower) and a different saddle a foew months later, but I can now ride for 6h without major aches and pains. What I don't quite get is when a fitter reccomends a certain crank length without allowing the client to try them during a fitting session. When someone asks me whether they should change their crankset, I always suggest them to head to someone with a jig so they see how different lengths feel. Crank swaps are not cheap.
I finally switched to shorter cranks as well. Best thing I ever did. I knew I needed it for years. These da*m manufacturers put one size fits all cranks on smaller bike frames that have no business with them on there. The last few years things are starting to change in places but it’s not enough yet. No way my 52 Madone frame should of ever had a 172.5 crank, the shop seller shouldn’t of let it go out there door, and the first fitter I went to never said a thing. They wanted wider pedal spindles to correct my knees pushing out, but it was really the cranks the whole time because of my short height and 29in inseam. After figuring things out myself, I’d never trust another fitter again. I’d listen to what they said but I’m now able to come to my own independent conclusions.
I've never had a bike fit before as I never felt i needed it. I mean i dialed my bikes in myself but nowhere was it a prof bike fit. I have a lot of experienc ein the gym and mobility is pretty good. No pain at all!
Excellent video! I am huge fan of your channel. I’ve researched and viewed almost every bike fitter, someone being bike fitted, or a cycling influencer from RUclips videos. One of the bigger variables I’ve noticed is, with the hands on the hoods, the upper arm angle from elbow to the shoulder to the torso angle. Shane Miller’s comes in at shallow 66.0 degrees all the way up to Cam Nichol’s 79.9 degrees, and Veloharmony’s at even higher 95.5 degrees. In the 90’s/early 2000’s it was longer reach shorter handlebar drop and now it seems shorter reach lower handlebar drop. I’ve also noticed Neill Stanbury advocating higher seat height with a higher ankle angle and shimming one leg vs Bike Fit James with lower seat height with no shims (both Neill and James praise Steve Hogg). It makes going to a local bike fitter stressful, even in my NYC. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on these bike fitting variables and if you would ever consider bike fitting by video from your fans who are outside the UK. Thank you in advance. Best Regards,
Thank you. I don't think I will ever do virtual fits. But I can see us doing posture, mobility and core strength vids on the Strength to Speed channel. I personally don't like using cleat wedges unless I really have too. it ovelises the pedal stroke. A lot of the time minor knee alignment can be sorted with coaching cues. Sometimes rocking or flaring the knee is just a bad habit. Remember if you go to 3 fitters back to back, they will all adjust something. It is very hard to charge someone for the hours of their day you booked, for them to do nothing. This happens from time to time, so I tend to fill the hour with some useful coaching either on the bike or in the gym, and generally everyone is happy, and I still get paid.
Dear Mapdec, thank you very much for your response. I appreciate you sharing your expertise on bike fitting. I will follow your Strength to Speed channel and would gladly pay a subscription fee for posture, mobility, and strength videos tailored to improving cycling performance. You have a unique perspective as an expert mechanic, bike fitter, cyclist, and Hambini fan (really, who isn’t a big fan). I’m an early 50’s cyclist looking to improve their riding condition for competitive group rides and I would love to benefit from your expertise. Please let your subscribers know when you plan to do cycling performance videos. Best Regards,
I got a bike fit and I think it worked out really well because I used to have aches and pains. Now all I have is a good general fatigue, but not what I'd call points of stress. Seems to me that fit is also power dependent so as I've gotten faster I've had to change it slightly. I always wear sunscreen.
It will be mobility dependant. As you got fitter your body has changed. Maybe you have not been stretching and your muscles have shortened, or maybe you have lost some weight.. hopefully you have been working on all elements of fitness and now you’re riding an even more effective position.
@@Mapdec As power came up, more weight on the pedals made me have to bend forward to stay balanced. I've gotten lower. I've been less disciplined about stretching so thanks for reminding me!
My comment will still be that most smaller bikes come with wrong sized cranks (too long). Things have started to change but it’s not quite enough. Back in 2011 my 52cm Madone came with 172.5 cranks and they were too long for my 5’7, 29in inseam. The shop let it go that way and the first fitter never said a thing but tried to correct things with saddle height and longer pedal spindles to correct for the knees kicking out at the top of the stroke. Now I’m finally on 165mm cranks and it’s the best thing I ever did for my short legs. I can have a decent lower seat height (relative) without the knees pushing up into my gut and out. I think there’s a ton of shorter people 5’7’ and under out there on small or medium framed bikes that have cranks that are too long.
Small frame have lots of issues. They really need smaller wheels. Very hard to get a decent saddle to bar drop. Every small rider sits so upright hardly using glutes
It's a disgrace. And anything shorter than 165 is pricey as well. Also, there are no cheap framesin smaller sizes, making cycling quite a luxury too. I ride 155 cranks which were a game changer, but I sit very high on the bike as a result. I have a decent bar drop, but even an endurance frame needs 1.5cm of spacers under the bars. I recently bought a cheap hybrid shop bike size XS. First thing I did was to swap the 170 cranks.
Would you apply the same coaching approach to other aspects of your business. for example if some one came in wanting an aero bike or wheels, would you advise them to first buy a skinsuit, aero socks and helmet because these items are cheaper and will make bigger gain in terms of performance?
oh god yes. We actually have a gym and a team of sports therapists on site here. We really encourage riders to pursue a good position first and foremost. People love spending money on bikes, more than they do themselves,. The reality is that our team of strength coaches would make more difference to a riders speed than a new bike.
I was talking to a guy at the bike shop about getting a bike fit cause I was experiencing some knee pain. The guy said: nah, no pain no gain. But yeah I got some bike fits at a couple locations and only the gentleman with tons of knowledge and years of experience got me fitted without pain.
Thank you for sharing. You hit the points right-on, on the topics of the three different fitters. Being proactive and having ideas for what you are looking for really helps to tune it in. Sometimes, it seems that a follow up fit would be welcomed as well for the beginners and novice riders, to check on the points, adjustments and posture that the 1st fit made. It is an in-depth topic that you can get really deep into. Thank you for looking into it.
How can we take fitting advice from someone who thinks the way to move your saddle forward over the BB is to get a frame with a steeper seat tube angle, instead of just sliding it forward on the rails?
Before you go for a bike fit you need to be really honest with yourself: about what sort of riding you are going to be doing, and what your level of flexibility is. I have had one "pro bike fit" and two "bike shop owner fits", and with all three they seemed to lean toward a more stretched out position than is comfortable (for any reasonable length of time). Sure you could embark on a regime of stretches, massages, foam rolling and Pilates, but how long are you really going to keep that up for?
Definitely working on become more robust. I'm a micro-adjuster by nature in everything which I'm trying to get over :) Just one question, can adjusting the bike to fit you effect the overall stability of the bike or are bikes designed with enough tolerance that most changes won't have an effect on stability? Sorry Noob here!
I think I have my bike set up pretty good. On the hoods I am very comfortable after shortening my stem. On the drops however I can get comfortable but have trouble reaching the shifters and brakes. Any suggestions on what to try ? Move the hoods ? Raise or lower the bars ? Another Tweak ?
@@Mapdec Not sure what your question means. I can get down in the drops but the levers are out of reach. I can only get my fingertips on them. Perhaps I'm not made to get to them, I'm no kid.
BTW had my new carbon wheels put on yesterday (Roval c38) I'm quite happy so far. (2 rides) Thanks for your advice in your videos on things to look for. (brass nipple etc.) It gave me more confidence in my purchase.
I've found that for average individuals without any pre-existing conditions, fixing the saddle height at 0.885 x inseam length and making all other fit adjustments around that saddle height has worked quite well. Set the saddle height first and make that the very last thing you touch. Accurate measurement of inseam is crucial.
@@ltu42 Crazy as it sounds... You don't. Seems to be insignificant or rather the differences between different shoes and pedal combo's are smaller than we realize. I didn't say you couldn't deviate from that measurement but when I do it's by 2 to 3 mm at most. Very little. The "average" person just doesn't need to be that precise frankly. Center of BB to top of saddle at the 120mm point from rear of saddle and you are good to go, most often.
I had a bike fit. It helped a few things, but the changes were incredibly minor, and things that I could have done myself had I had the jig and could have played around with the position. I was also administered these fabled G8 insoles that everyone raves about, and they were utterly horrible for me. I've long had issues with my feet and never been able to resolve them. I explicitly went in to the fit to fix this, and the fitter wasn't able to help in this area. I'm now seeking a more medical focused approach, as it seems I must have feet so atypical that regular fitters aren't skilled or knowledgeable enough to help. Oh and I paid 120 euros for the insoles that are a fat sack of useless shit to me now... the fitter can't do anything and doesn't offer refunds...
They should have referred you to a podiatrist. Off the shelf insoles are ineffective, and often cause more problems than they solve as they don’t fit into shoes properly. I hope you find a good one.
I also found them useless for my toe numbness and metatarsal pain. The only thing that worked was a custom pair from my physiotherapist with metatarsal pads. I now do 6h rides with no issues. A good podiatrist might help you.
As someone on a budget who is also looking to take cycling a bit more seriously, I really want a bike fit, but just can’t afford one. I wish more places provided basic fitting before purchase without needing me to sell a kidney..
I'm just working part time in a shop, customer comes in, mid 60s, overweight.. he opens up with "I was doing a charity ride and it was 2 hours and my back was super sore.. do I need to adjust my handlebar stem?" "....maybe? Or your seat, seat height, maybe your bike is the wrong size, maybe the 2 hour ride exposed a weak muscle group?." 😂
Just make sure your bikefitter knows that you CAN and WILL buy anything he says you need to change on your bike from the big competitive retailers !!! The expensive stuff I mean , not the £2.50 widgets. That way they will not make too much of a big effort trying to convince you to change the handlebar/stem and/or crankset ! #Sorted !!!
Bullseye 👍 A lot of people look up too much on bike fit while it’s their trainings that counts. Especially sfter pandemic, there are many false doctors. You can grab a Wilson Pro Staff with the correct grip & correct tension, but it doesn’t make you a Roger Federer instantly. Far from it. You can buy tailored Tom Ford suit, but that doesn’t make you look like James Bond.
I had a bike fit with a guy who set up my bike of a turbo trainer. He took some measurements, did some videoing. Ended by saying my position was about right and reduced the saddle height by 7mm. Also sold me a saddle to try. The saddle didn’t work for me and I returned it. I then engaged in some discussions with RUclips fitters. The ones who charge £300-£400. Got conflicting opinions between Phil Burt and another. The another said he’d ‘corrected’ several Phil Burt fits, always shortening the reach and lowering the saddle. So I’m left pretty confused and a little sceptical. Two apparently respected and experienced fitters with all the fitting equipment reaching quite different conclusions as to optimal position. Snake oil? I don’t know but I’m still searching for saddle comfort and I’ve done a lot of long distance cycling. (You won’t do Paris Brest Paris in 12 hours…. The record is about 42 hours). My dilemma is do I experiment with a £300+ fit? I’m curious but it’s a very expensive way to experiment to try to be more comfortable on a saddle.
Sorry for the PBP misspeak. It is a sad fact of bike fitters that if you go to 3 fitters back to back, they will all change something. They kind of have to, to justify their fee. it is very arrogant to say someone has 'corrected' a fit, as a 'correct' fit is impossible. Your body is just too dynamic. As for optimal, this will depend on rider feedback. A very possible scenario here would be for Phil to have fitted a good efficient fit for aerodynamics and biomechanics because thats what the rider wanted, and to have instructed the rider to work on their mobility etc. Then for the rider to realises that they are uncomfortable in that position and haven't done their off bike exercises, and the 'other' fitter making compromises to accommodate the riders new request for additional comfort. The first guy seems good and helpful. A lot of this is more trial and error than fitters care to admit. That is why it is important to try saddles. Anyone can hold a good posture for 10mins on a turbo. My advice to you would probably be to pay attention to your posture and movement on the saddle as you fatigue. I would be willing to bet that as you tire your posture collapses and you rock in the saddle.
I've had a few bike fits with different people over the years, as I lived in different locations. With and without jigs. Everyone fitter made noticeable improvements, but as soon as one problem was solved and I could ride a bit longer, other issues would come up. Knee - feet - saddle - upper back - shoulders. I now ride 6h without issues, but it took very long (plus a smaller frame) to get here. I never got on with 'fitter insoles' and only my physiotherapist worked out the insoles I needed. A few things based on my experience: - fitting sessions without a jig were helpful, but would never get me to the comfortable setup I ride on now. I would never tried my game changer 155 cranks or the narrower bars that helped my wrists. They also tried to fit me on my previous bike, which was far too long for me anyway. None of the fitters had pressure mapping or many saddles to try either, which didn't help to solve my issues. - the best fitting outcomes were after jig sessions. I could just try and feel many more adjustments which were out of bounds with my bike on a turbo, such as bar width, reach and crank length. Unfortunately, this also meant I finally realised my bike was waaay too long. - Saddle wise, go with someone with pressure mapping and loads of saddles to try. The mapping allows the fitter to see/anticipate whether the saddle will work in the long run, and gauge what other saddles you might try instead. I sometimes struggle to gauge what is the issue in just a few min. Most saddles are tolerable for a few min, but the pressure distribution will be very different in the uncomfortable ones straighaway, even if you don't feel it immediately. Take the thinest pair of shorts so you feel the saddle more during the session. - price wise, fitters with a jig and other perks will charge more, but ultimately they still need to know what to do with it. Some charge a fortune and will likely do a good job (hence why they can afford to charge so much), but that's not to say someone cheaper won't sort you out. James Thomas used to charge 200£ before all the fame he has now, but I went to a 'cheaper' fitter in his studio and he was the one who finally sorted me out in the saddle department. A different saddle and a pedal spacer was all it took. - I notice many ultra endurance riders use SMP, but not all fitters install them because they 'take too long' to setup. Perhaps see someone who uses SMP. - if you don't want to go the bike fit route, perhaps try a saddle hire. - I never went to Phill Burt, but I once saw a GCN video where he suggested Si to get shorter cranks based on a turbo bike fit he did. Having tried different crank lengths in a jig until my current 155 just felt amazing, I would hesistate to change crank length without trying them first.
@@nluisa Thanks to you and Mapdec for the interesting comments. I’ve tried numerous saddles, Fizik -Arione is bearable the others not, SMP - waiting to try Drakon next although some I tried on the turbo weren’t comfortable, SQ Labs - waiting to give a longer trial, Brooks, Madison, Selle Italia SLR Boost Superflow - current trial but seems firm and wasn’t very comfortable on rougher roads. I think my position on the bike is pretty stable / ‘quiet’ and I have ridden many long times and distances. I find saddle comfort has got worse with age and it’s partly the lack of any ‘natural’ padding on my sit bones and shorts that seem to trap moisture and feel like sandpaper however good they are. A frame builder who I got a bespoke steel frame from said the body is simply not designed to sit on a bike saddle for 12 hours or more. So there’s a limit to what you can do to get comfortable. But my search goes on. James Thomas was the ‘another’ in my initial post and his comments are in the public domain in one of the RUclips videos he’s in. The bike fit I had was with someone who had worked with Phil Cavell (?). He didn’t think pressure mapping added much value, with an experienced fitter. So yet another difference of opinion. I guess fitting on a jig is still an approximation to riding a bike which has constant movement and vibration being transmitted from the road. Shorter cranks seem fashionable, so something else to try, maybe. It’s all really frustrating and expensive though.
@@enigma1000 You are welcome. I guess at the duration you are riding it will be harder and harder to find the sweet spot and some level of discomfort will be inevitable (which is not to say things can improve). You are right about an indoor experience not being like riding outdoors. What I noticed with the jig was simply the wider range of options it would provide during a session. Sessions tend to last 2h or therabouts, regardless of who does it. This means those fitters without jigs will have more limited options when it comes to get the bike set up properly. I found this to be insuficient in my case, especially when it came to reach and crank length. As for pressure mapping, I am not a bike fitter, therefore I cannot comment on what is possible to assess in terms of saddles. I am guessing rider feedback also plays a crucial role, and the technology must be pricey too. My experience was that the technology got me closer to an ideal saddle, than when I just had a 'feel' for it for a few minutes. When I tried my current saddle during a bike fit, it did feel better, although I wasn't entirely convinced it would be that much more. It was the comparative data from the pressure mapping that made me go ahead with the purchase. I had to adjust the tilt afterwards, but it wasn't until I did a 3h ride without thnking about the saddle that I realised how much better it was.
Sound advise mate, im currently going through bike fit process, ive been active enough with enough mechanical feel and seen enough physios good/bad (not just bike related) to sus out those that know there stuff. Dan@ukbikefit so far seems on point. Going back for few tweaks this week see if can get me and bike to where all works together:) Like u say, if u can find your local bike community get to know folks and get recommendations and if its all going dwn a rabbit hole stop.
Where bike fitting goes wrong is fitters trying to up-sell product and those relying on fitting by numbers on a screen. Fitters who fit by numbers learn very little over time, because they think their software has all the answers.
Trump snake oil salesman meme? Those living outside of the US may forget rhat we enjoyed $2 gas, high employment, national security and money in our retirement accounts during those years, but sure, snake oil salesman...
That was sold to me too, until I had a bike fit and realised it didn't have to be that way. Unfortunately it also meant changing many components, but being able to ride 6+ hours without issues was worth it.
nah, I had a revelation watching Norcal cycling a couple years back, where I realized there's no way he could be riding the way he was if he felt like I did (pain all over, as you say). A smaller bike later, and the huge majority of that pain is gone. Still chasing some saddle comfort though.
I think if I were a bike fitter the first thing I would do is ask the customer to do a 2 minute plank, and if they couldn't, I would say not to pay for a fit until you can as you're wasting your money! You're quite right.
You might not make much money as a bike fitter though ;)
What a hollow, crap take from nobody from the Internet. What plank does that can be translated to fit on a bicycle? Even recumbent riders do not possess anything even remotely close to planking position.
I could post an essay here, but the first comment is right. Being able to plank at least for 1 mins is a fundamental life skill. In terms of bike fitting a stable core will solve a multitude of issues that less astute bike fitters will charge you a fortune to ‘fix’. They would just be band aid fixes though, because the underlying issue would still decline.
@@tweed0929 Really?
@@tweed0929 it's not about being close to a plank position, it's about the core strength that being able to do a plank represents. That said, I don't agree with the initial contention that until you're fit, you shouldn't get a fit. A better approach would be a fit, some education on developing core strength, and then a re-fit following an appropriate adaptation period. It seems woefully inappropriate for a fitter to just send someone away, potentially suffering from some significant issues, just because they're not really strong at the moment.
So good that you address this. I started to bike back in the mid Seventies and back then we only go information through magazines. We were not flooded with information. My feeling is that a newbie fits the bike to the standards of Eddie Merckx or Bernard Hinault they are pretty well off. A lot of the bike fitters I have watch on RUclips are overcomplicating stuff. Instead of starting with general and standard rules, they start with corner cases. Perhaps making money, but bad for the customers. Thanks for a good and informative RUclips channel.
Fits of the pros in the previous century were absolutely hideous
A well reasoned approach. It is you PLUS your bike. Neither can fix the other. I learned the hard way that it takes as much work off the bike as it does money spent on the bike. These are great videos…. Thank you
Well said!, I wish I had said that! thank you.
Exactly. If they are a crap mover on land, no amount of perfect bike fitting will solve their issues on the bike. You need to get stronger in the right places off the bike to complement the bike fit. And as you get fitter and stronger your fit will change.
So glad you made the point that the human body is actually really adaptable. Another point, a bike fit is the starting point, not the end point. It's permanently ongoing, and changes as the months go by.. The bike fit gets one in the ball park, then it's refinement from that point on...
Great point.
I agree to a degree... It is true how the body responds to the bike evolves over time. Still, everyone has different ranges of adaptation and for some those are narrower too. To expand beyond the range often requires a degree of conditioning and prehab not everyone can accomodate. Not to mention hours spent riding to get used to a a position on the edge of the range. Many fellow riders don't put enough hours on the bike to 'adapt' to a slightly different position. And a wrong fitted bike will never feel right either (reach too long, saddle too high, bars too wide, etc).
I am highly flexible and light on the upper body. Riding in agressive positions isn't much of a problem and a higher bar drop was necessary to eliminate shoulder tension. I would never considered this unless I had a bike fit, but I was told is very common in highly flexible people.
Nevertheless, I had no end of knee issues until I went to 155 cranks and my feet go numb and very painful at the metatarsals without my current insoles. I also had ongoing upper back tension due to the reach being too long, so a new bike was inevitable. There was no adaptation possible to either of these issues in my case, no matter how much strength and conditioning and prehab I did. Even my town bike has shorter cranks, otherwise my knees go awol.
I still have minor refinements to do on the saddle department, but changing the bike setup was key to do 6h rides without issues.
Some great points there!
Like you alluded to, the first question would be on the persons ability to perform the chosen discipline, i.e. their 'fitness'.
Thus, before any ride analysis, a Q&A followed by a MOT should be performed.
I really enjoy how you make it easy to understand whatever topic the video covers. You share a lot of knowledge riders crave.
Proprietary steer tubes and seatpost clamp systems make fitting tough. Riders tend to adapt if they give a setting a chance. Over training will eventually cause problems too.
100% agree not all bike fitters are equal . But surely part of the problem is people buying the bike they want and not what they need . (Mid 50s business man over weight cervelo v5 think5hes a pro 🤔) more upright relaxed geometry would suit them better but they have cash to burn . Why when you buy a new bike you don't get to choose bar width crank length and stem length this should be taken into account at the point of sale . Instead of 1 size fits all . I ride a small giant but need wider bars 28" inseam but 48" chest At 5ft 7" can't be the only 1 top content as Always Paul 💪
Oh. Did you just stereotype 😳Have more problems with the mid 30s who think they are still 20. 😂. Anyway. Thank you.
I never had bike fit and feel perfect on my bikes, but it was a lot of trials and errors and part changes to get to this point. With experience you get more of a sense what each small change does so it gets easier with each new bike. IMHO saddle setback is critical because you have to get balanced on the bike, all else is more or less matter of preference and type of the riding you do.
The thing with tinkering is it takes time. Why not get a better baseline with a reputable bike fitter and go from there if you want to tinker later on? It takes out the guess work.
I forget who said it, but one of the things to look for going into a fit is whether or not the fitter includes a follow up or not. If not, run away, find someone else!
16:25 is excellent, and it'd be nice if more channels covered how to interact with the bike.
Thank you.
Good Pedalling technique, and good posture is rarely discussed. I’m glad you brought that up. It seems to be skirted over too quickly that riders know what it is.
Totally. I think this is a vid for the future.
Thanks for the video. It's useful and right in time, made some notes for myself.
I would add that cycling is connected to lifestyle more than it may seem. Especially when you go harder, faster and feather. How you sleep, how you work, going or not to the gym will affect your cycling. So talking to people and understanding the person is critical.
Hope it’s helpful. You are so right, pain on the bike is often due to lifestyle rather than cycling.
I think I was very lucky to find a local fitter that was actually competent. I wanted to do a fit when I started cycling, got in touch with the bike shop that was offering the service, and was basically told that if I'm new, I should just ride whatever bike I currently have and play around with things like saddle height, reach, etc. myself and get in touch after a few months - when I build up my fitness sufficiently, know what sort of riding I like, and actually identify any issues. Fast forward 15 months, I was planning to buy a new bike and wasn't sure about what size frame to get, and also had a very specific comfort issue on longer rides. Got back in touch with them, explained the situation, was told to come in. Fit took half a day and we spent at least 2h assessing my strength, mobility, flexibility, etc. before I even got on the bike. Unsurprisingly, was advised on the frame size and told I'm getting a good frame for the sort of riding I do, and the root cause for my issue was quickly identified as suboptimal shoe choice (normal width shoe but narrow feet). Funny how I thought they must know what they're doing, after they told me to not waste their time initially.
Perfect. This sounds like a great local shop. Who are they?
@@Mapdec It was York Cycleworks. Fit by Fraz.
Cycling for 12 years. Never been on bike fit. Feel great on my bikes - i have mtb with 175mm crank and gravel + road with 172.5mm. I do about 2 hours of yoga every week and i think this is key to feel good on the bike. I used to have saddle sore but after trying out brooks cambium, it solved the problem completely. Worth to mention is ice. Anyone who feel any soreness in muscles or joints - ice pack or ice bath is fantastic cuz it stops inflammation.
Well said!
You are very lucky. I would not be able to ride a bike hadn't I gone to a bike fit.
Not sure I agree about the ice though. If cycling is the cause of ongoing joint soreness, perhaps it is worth addressing the cause, rather than nursing injuries?
I've never had any issues (touch wood) with my bikes (now 54). I've learned a lot from a lot of different fitters in the last year (Neil Stanbury, the guy on Cade etc) that I didn't know. I've always found my best starting point is always the saddle (height, tilt, setback) and critically can I comfortably ride it no handed....
thats a pretty good test to be fair.
Excellent video. As someone who is now just a leisure cyclist in their twilight years, going to and from the cycle cafe for breakfast. What I am looking for is the most comfortable experience I can get using my repurposed mountain bikes. Efficiency is my last consideration and less efficiency equals more exercise per mile. A bit like the old train heavy, race light, only without the race. Do you have any experience in extracting a magic carpet ride from full suspension MTB used only on the pot holed roads of the English countryside?
Thanks for another very thoughtful video. I wish your shop was in my neighborhood. Getting my first bike fit at LBS soon. Looking forward to some help with numb hands. The back pain I get when riding is the same as I get when driving for a couple of hours, running the vacuum or leaning over the engine compartment of my car. Might need a physio for that one.
I hope this little vid proves useful.
Funny, have been thinking of a Bike Fit, though this is due to knee and saddle issues on my new bike. The old to new Emonda has a slight geometry change, so I didn’t think it would be an issue. Both my bikes were set up the same, but I was uncomfortable on the new Emonda. So I decided to play with saddle and stem. Small changes over a few rides and now no more issues on saddle and I think my knee issue was me over training on Zwift in February and it not healing properly. Today I thought how comfortable I was on the bike and hopefully after 2 weeks off the bike my knee seems to be ok, so I don’t need a fit… fingers crossed😁 Cheers for another informative video😊👍
Thank you. We see a lot of ‘Zwift pain’ it’s a very static and repetitive exercise. Remember to stretch and do mobility and strength exercises too. Consider it the antidote to Zwifting.
Really interesting video - thank you. I spend far too much time looking at new bikes, and framesets, without any real idea about whether any of them would suit me. I've looked at my existing bike geometry, and compared to other bikes, but it's so hard to make a choice just based on charts. However, my current Rose bike was bought online and, other than adjusting the saddle height and stack, I've ridden it as it came out of the box. Maybe I've been lucky, because I've had no problems, or issues. Likewise with my previous bike, which was once around the car park and take my money. However, with the cost of bikes now, I'm far more hesitant about my next purchase.
Sounds like you have a very healthy body Jim. Long may it last.
I went to a podiatrist recently for shin and foot pain ended up with custom orthotics.
I tried them in my cycling shoes and had to put the seat post up 5mm!
But my foot now feels more stable and “connected” to the pedal.
Never had a bike fit because I never felt having any issue. I ride a race geometry bike but with the stem turned upwards (it was already installed so at the shop). After watching a few videos of where cleats should positioned, I tried moving them all the way backwards. I compensated that with lowering the saddle. And the end result was very annoying numbness and pure pain in my big toes. Moved the cleats back to around midway between the ends of the first and the fifth metatarsal, no pain anymore.
That reminded me of these videos where bikefitters sell one-size-fits-all solutions. Hopefully people will be able to spot if something is not working for them. Now a trend seems to be shorter cranks, haven’t tried but I think it also might work for some people but are not a universal solution to a problem that is not universal.
Great post. Thank you.
Shorter cranks were definitely a game changer for me and many other shorter riders I know, owmen especially. Even 165 cranks are not standard in smaller frames, so I'm not surprised so many make the swap. Years ago I went to 165 when there was nothing shorter. It was much better, but I was never 100% in hindsight.
Two years ago I tried other lengths during a fitting session in a jig and 155 just felt right for me as soon as I started pedalling (I mentioned constantly tight calf muscles and dodgy left knee). The main issue was my already too long bike became even more uncomfortable over long distances, so I decided to get a new frame. It was a difficult decision financially, but It was unbeliavable how right the new bike felt. It came out of the shop with the right stem, bars, etc for me. I needed minor tweaks on handlebar height (lower) and a different saddle a foew months later, but I can now ride for 6h without major aches and pains.
What I don't quite get is when a fitter reccomends a certain crank length without allowing the client to try them during a fitting session. When someone asks me whether they should change their crankset, I always suggest them to head to someone with a jig so they see how different lengths feel. Crank swaps are not cheap.
I finally switched to shorter cranks as well. Best thing I ever did. I knew I needed it for years. These da*m manufacturers put one size fits all cranks on smaller bike frames that have no business with them on there. The last few years things are starting to change in places but it’s not enough yet. No way my 52 Madone frame should of ever had a 172.5 crank, the shop seller shouldn’t of let it go out there door, and the first fitter I went to never said a thing. They wanted wider pedal spindles to correct my knees pushing out, but it was really the cranks the whole time because of my short height and 29in inseam. After figuring things out myself, I’d never trust another fitter again. I’d listen to what they said but I’m now able to come to my own independent conclusions.
So much spot on info here. Great video.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you
I've never had a bike fit before as I never felt i needed it. I mean i dialed my bikes in myself but nowhere was it a prof bike fit. I have a lot of experienc ein the gym and mobility is pretty good. No pain at all!
Perfect! Spread the word. This is the way!
Excellent video! I am huge fan of your channel. I’ve researched and viewed almost every bike fitter, someone being bike fitted, or a cycling influencer from RUclips videos. One of the bigger variables I’ve noticed is, with the hands on the hoods, the upper arm angle from elbow to the shoulder to the torso angle. Shane Miller’s comes in at shallow 66.0 degrees all the way up to Cam Nichol’s 79.9 degrees, and Veloharmony’s at even higher 95.5 degrees. In the 90’s/early 2000’s it was longer reach shorter handlebar drop and now it seems shorter reach lower handlebar drop. I’ve also noticed Neill Stanbury advocating higher seat height with a higher ankle angle and shimming one leg vs Bike Fit James with lower seat height with no shims (both Neill and James praise Steve Hogg). It makes going to a local bike fitter stressful, even in my NYC. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on these bike fitting variables and if you would ever consider bike fitting by video from your fans who are outside the UK. Thank you in advance. Best Regards,
Thank you. I don't think I will ever do virtual fits. But I can see us doing posture, mobility and core strength vids on the Strength to Speed channel. I personally don't like using cleat wedges unless I really have too. it ovelises the pedal stroke. A lot of the time minor knee alignment can be sorted with coaching cues. Sometimes rocking or flaring the knee is just a bad habit. Remember if you go to 3 fitters back to back, they will all adjust something. It is very hard to charge someone for the hours of their day you booked, for them to do nothing. This happens from time to time, so I tend to fill the hour with some useful coaching either on the bike or in the gym, and generally everyone is happy, and I still get paid.
Dear Mapdec, thank you very much for your response. I appreciate you sharing your expertise on bike fitting. I will follow your Strength to Speed channel and would gladly pay a subscription fee for posture, mobility, and strength videos tailored to improving cycling performance. You have a unique perspective as an expert mechanic, bike fitter, cyclist, and Hambini fan (really, who isn’t a big fan). I’m an early 50’s cyclist looking to improve their riding condition for competitive group rides and I would love to benefit from your expertise. Please let your subscribers know when you plan to do cycling performance videos. Best Regards,
I got a bike fit and I think it worked out really well because I used to have aches and pains. Now all I have is a good general fatigue, but not what I'd call points of stress. Seems to me that fit is also power dependent so as I've gotten faster I've had to change it slightly. I always wear sunscreen.
It will be mobility dependant. As you got fitter your body has changed. Maybe you have not been stretching and your muscles have shortened, or maybe you have lost some weight.. hopefully you have been working on all elements of fitness and now you’re riding an even more effective position.
@@Mapdec As power came up, more weight on the pedals made me have to bend forward to stay balanced. I've gotten lower. I've been less disciplined about stretching so thanks for reminding me!
My comment will still be that most smaller bikes come with wrong sized cranks (too long). Things have started to change but it’s not quite enough. Back in 2011 my 52cm Madone came with 172.5 cranks and they were too long for my 5’7, 29in inseam. The shop let it go that way and the first fitter never said a thing but tried to correct things with saddle height and longer pedal spindles to correct for the knees kicking out at the top of the stroke. Now I’m finally on 165mm cranks and it’s the best thing I ever did for my short legs. I can have a decent lower seat height (relative) without the knees pushing up into my gut and out. I think there’s a ton of shorter people 5’7’ and under out there on small or medium framed bikes that have cranks that are too long.
Small frame have lots of issues. They really need smaller wheels. Very hard to get a decent saddle to bar drop. Every small rider sits so upright hardly using glutes
It's a disgrace. And anything shorter than 165 is pricey as well. Also, there are no cheap framesin smaller sizes, making cycling quite a luxury too.
I ride 155 cranks which were a game changer, but I sit very high on the bike as a result. I have a decent bar drop, but even an endurance frame needs 1.5cm of spacers under the bars.
I recently bought a cheap hybrid shop bike size XS. First thing I did was to swap the 170 cranks.
Would you apply the same coaching approach to other aspects of your business. for example if some one came in wanting an aero bike or wheels, would you advise them to first buy a skinsuit, aero socks and helmet because these items are cheaper and will make bigger gain in terms of performance?
oh god yes. We actually have a gym and a team of sports therapists on site here. We really encourage riders to pursue a good position first and foremost. People love spending money on bikes, more than they do themselves,. The reality is that our team of strength coaches would make more difference to a riders speed than a new bike.
I was talking to a guy at the bike shop about getting a bike fit cause I was experiencing some knee pain. The guy said: nah, no pain no gain.
But yeah I got some bike fits at a couple locations and only the gentleman with tons of knowledge and years of experience got me fitted without pain.
Awesome. Glad you found someone good. Hope the first guy is getting the customers they deserve.
Thank you for sharing. You hit the points right-on, on the topics of the three different fitters. Being proactive and having ideas for what you are looking for really helps to tune it in. Sometimes, it seems that a follow up fit would be welcomed as well for the beginners and novice riders, to check on the points, adjustments and posture that the 1st fit made. It is an in-depth topic that you can get really deep into. Thank you for looking into it.
Glad it was helpful!
How can we take fitting advice from someone who thinks the way to move your saddle forward over the BB is to get a frame with a steeper seat tube angle, instead of just sliding it forward on the rails?
Good point! What happens then and it isn’t enough. TT and aero position etc.
Before you go for a bike fit you need to be really honest with yourself: about what sort of riding you are going to be doing, and what your level of flexibility is. I have had one "pro bike fit" and two "bike shop owner fits", and with all three they seemed to lean toward a more stretched out position than is comfortable (for any reasonable length of time). Sure you could embark on a regime of stretches, massages, foam rolling and Pilates, but how long are you really going to keep that up for?
Guess that depends how long you want to be fast.
Definitely working on become more robust. I'm a micro-adjuster by nature in everything which I'm trying to get over :) Just one question, can adjusting the bike to fit you effect the overall stability of the bike or are bikes designed with enough tolerance that most changes won't have an effect on stability? Sorry Noob here!
Yes totally! You are the significant mass in a rider + bike. Weight distribution has a big impact on handling.
I think I have my bike set up pretty good. On the hoods I am very comfortable after shortening my stem. On the drops however I can get comfortable but have trouble reaching the shifters and brakes. Any suggestions on what to try ? Move the hoods ? Raise or lower the bars ? Another Tweak ?
Where is the restriction?
@@Mapdec Not sure what your question means. I can get down in the drops but the levers are out of reach. I can only get my fingertips on them. Perhaps I'm not made to get to them, I'm no kid.
BTW had my new carbon wheels put on yesterday (Roval c38) I'm quite happy so far. (2 rides) Thanks for your advice in your videos on things to look for. (brass nipple etc.) It gave me more confidence in my purchase.
Perhaps your hoods/bars are tilted too far up or the reach adjustment on the levers isn't set up properly...
@@nluisa I guess I'll have to get some help at my bike shop. Thanks for the help.
I've found that for average individuals without any pre-existing conditions, fixing the saddle height at 0.885 x inseam length and making all other fit adjustments around that saddle height has worked quite well. Set the saddle height first and make that the very last thing you touch. Accurate measurement of inseam is crucial.
How do you account for the differences in stack height of the shoes and pedals?
@@ltu42 Crazy as it sounds... You don't. Seems to be insignificant or rather the differences between different shoes and pedal combo's are smaller than we realize. I didn't say you couldn't deviate from that measurement but when I do it's by 2 to 3 mm at most. Very little. The "average" person just doesn't need to be that precise frankly. Center of BB to top of saddle at the 120mm point from rear of saddle and you are good to go, most often.
Well said if a bit long
I had a bike fit. It helped a few things, but the changes were incredibly minor, and things that I could have done myself had I had the jig and could have played around with the position. I was also administered these fabled G8 insoles that everyone raves about, and they were utterly horrible for me.
I've long had issues with my feet and never been able to resolve them. I explicitly went in to the fit to fix this, and the fitter wasn't able to help in this area. I'm now seeking a more medical focused approach, as it seems I must have feet so atypical that regular fitters aren't skilled or knowledgeable enough to help.
Oh and I paid 120 euros for the insoles that are a fat sack of useless shit to me now... the fitter can't do anything and doesn't offer refunds...
They should have referred you to a podiatrist. Off the shelf insoles are ineffective, and often cause more problems than they solve as they don’t fit into shoes properly. I hope you find a good one.
I also found them useless for my toe numbness and metatarsal pain. The only thing that worked was a custom pair from my physiotherapist with metatarsal pads. I now do 6h rides with no issues.
A good podiatrist might help you.
Good talk....there's a lot of 'snake oil' being sold out there.
As someone on a budget who is also looking to take cycling a bit more seriously, I really want a bike fit, but just can’t afford one. I wish more places provided basic fitting before purchase without needing me to sell a kidney..
I'm just working part time in a shop, customer comes in, mid 60s, overweight.. he opens up with "I was doing a charity ride and it was 2 hours and my back was super sore.. do I need to adjust my handlebar stem?" "....maybe? Or your seat, seat height, maybe your bike is the wrong size, maybe the 2 hour ride exposed a weak muscle group?." 😂
Just make sure your bikefitter knows that you CAN and WILL buy anything he says you need to change on your bike from the big competitive retailers !!! The expensive stuff I mean , not the £2.50 widgets. That way they will not make too much of a big effort trying to convince you to change the handlebar/stem and/or crankset ! #Sorted !!!
good tip.
Bullseye 👍
A lot of people look up too much on bike fit while it’s their trainings that counts. Especially sfter pandemic, there are many false doctors. You can grab a Wilson Pro Staff with the correct grip & correct tension, but it doesn’t make you a Roger Federer instantly. Far from it. You can buy tailored Tom Ford suit, but that doesn’t make you look like James Bond.
I had a bike fit with a guy who set up my bike of a turbo trainer. He took some measurements, did some videoing. Ended by saying my position was about right and reduced the saddle height by 7mm. Also sold me a saddle to try. The saddle didn’t work for me and I returned it.
I then engaged in some discussions with RUclips fitters. The ones who charge £300-£400. Got conflicting opinions between Phil Burt and another. The another said he’d ‘corrected’ several Phil Burt fits, always shortening the reach and lowering the saddle. So I’m left pretty confused and a little sceptical. Two apparently respected and experienced fitters with all the fitting equipment reaching quite different conclusions as to optimal position. Snake oil? I don’t know but I’m still searching for saddle comfort and I’ve done a lot of long distance cycling. (You won’t do Paris Brest Paris in 12 hours…. The record is about 42 hours). My dilemma is do I experiment with a £300+ fit? I’m curious but it’s a very expensive way to experiment to try to be more comfortable on a saddle.
Sorry for the PBP misspeak. It is a sad fact of bike fitters that if you go to 3 fitters back to back, they will all change something. They kind of have to, to justify their fee. it is very arrogant to say someone has 'corrected' a fit, as a 'correct' fit is impossible. Your body is just too dynamic. As for optimal, this will depend on rider feedback. A very possible scenario here would be for Phil to have fitted a good efficient fit for aerodynamics and biomechanics because thats what the rider wanted, and to have instructed the rider to work on their mobility etc. Then for the rider to realises that they are uncomfortable in that position and haven't done their off bike exercises, and the 'other' fitter making compromises to accommodate the riders new request for additional comfort. The first guy seems good and helpful. A lot of this is more trial and error than fitters care to admit. That is why it is important to try saddles. Anyone can hold a good posture for 10mins on a turbo. My advice to you would probably be to pay attention to your posture and movement on the saddle as you fatigue. I would be willing to bet that as you tire your posture collapses and you rock in the saddle.
I've had a few bike fits with different people over the years, as I lived in different locations. With and without jigs. Everyone fitter made noticeable improvements, but as soon as one problem was solved and I could ride a bit longer, other issues would come up. Knee - feet - saddle - upper back - shoulders. I now ride 6h without issues, but it took very long (plus a smaller frame) to get here. I never got on with 'fitter insoles' and only my physiotherapist worked out the insoles I needed.
A few things based on my experience:
- fitting sessions without a jig were helpful, but would never get me to the comfortable setup I ride on now. I would never tried my game changer 155 cranks or the narrower bars that helped my wrists. They also tried to fit me on my previous bike, which was far too long for me anyway. None of the fitters had pressure mapping or many saddles to try either, which didn't help to solve my issues.
- the best fitting outcomes were after jig sessions. I could just try and feel many more adjustments which were out of bounds with my bike on a turbo, such as bar width, reach and crank length. Unfortunately, this also meant I finally realised my bike was waaay too long.
- Saddle wise, go with someone with pressure mapping and loads of saddles to try. The mapping allows the fitter to see/anticipate whether the saddle will work in the long run, and gauge what other saddles you might try instead. I sometimes struggle to gauge what is the issue in just a few min. Most saddles are tolerable for a few min, but the pressure distribution will be very different in the uncomfortable ones straighaway, even if you don't feel it immediately. Take the thinest pair of shorts so you feel the saddle more during the session.
- price wise, fitters with a jig and other perks will charge more, but ultimately they still need to know what to do with it. Some charge a fortune and will likely do a good job (hence why they can afford to charge so much), but that's not to say someone cheaper won't sort you out. James Thomas used to charge 200£ before all the fame he has now, but I went to a 'cheaper' fitter in his studio and he was the one who finally sorted me out in the saddle department. A different saddle and a pedal spacer was all it took.
- I notice many ultra endurance riders use SMP, but not all fitters install them because they 'take too long' to setup. Perhaps see someone who uses SMP.
- if you don't want to go the bike fit route, perhaps try a saddle hire.
- I never went to Phill Burt, but I once saw a GCN video where he suggested Si to get shorter cranks based on a turbo bike fit he did. Having tried different crank lengths in a jig until my current 155 just felt amazing, I would hesistate to change crank length without trying them first.
@@nluisa Thanks to you and Mapdec for the interesting comments. I’ve tried numerous saddles, Fizik -Arione is bearable the others not, SMP - waiting to try Drakon next although some I tried on the turbo weren’t comfortable, SQ Labs - waiting to give a longer trial, Brooks, Madison, Selle Italia SLR Boost Superflow - current trial but seems firm and wasn’t very comfortable on rougher roads. I think my position on the bike is pretty stable / ‘quiet’ and I have ridden many long times and distances. I find saddle comfort has got worse with age and it’s partly the lack of any ‘natural’ padding on my sit bones and shorts that seem to trap moisture and feel like sandpaper however good they are. A frame builder who I got a bespoke steel frame from said the body is simply not designed to sit on a bike saddle for 12 hours or more. So there’s a limit to what you can do to get comfortable. But my search goes on. James Thomas was the ‘another’ in my initial post and his comments are in the public domain in one of the RUclips videos he’s in. The bike fit I had was with someone who had worked with Phil Cavell (?). He didn’t think pressure mapping added much value, with an experienced fitter. So yet another difference of opinion. I guess fitting on a jig is still an approximation to riding a bike which has constant movement and vibration being transmitted from the road. Shorter cranks seem fashionable, so something else to try, maybe. It’s all really frustrating and expensive though.
@@enigma1000 You are welcome. I guess at the duration you are riding it will be harder and harder to find the sweet spot and some level of discomfort will be inevitable (which is not to say things can improve).
You are right about an indoor experience not being like riding outdoors. What I noticed with the jig was simply the wider range of options it would provide during a session. Sessions tend to last 2h or therabouts, regardless of who does it. This means those fitters without jigs will have more limited options when it comes to get the bike set up properly. I found this to be insuficient in my case, especially when it came to reach and crank length.
As for pressure mapping, I am not a bike fitter, therefore I cannot comment on what is possible to assess in terms of saddles. I am guessing rider feedback also plays a crucial role, and the technology must be pricey too. My experience was that the technology got me closer to an ideal saddle, than when I just had a 'feel' for it for a few minutes.
When I tried my current saddle during a bike fit, it did feel better, although I wasn't entirely convinced it would be that much more. It was the comparative data from the pressure mapping that made me go ahead with the purchase. I had to adjust the tilt afterwards, but it wasn't until I did a 3h ride without thnking about the saddle that I realised how much better it was.
Sound advise mate, im currently going through bike fit process, ive been active enough with enough mechanical feel and seen enough physios good/bad (not just bike related) to sus out those that know there stuff. Dan@ukbikefit so far seems on point. Going back for few tweaks this week see if can get me and bike to where all works together:)
Like u say, if u can find your local bike community get to know folks and get recommendations and if its all going dwn a rabbit hole stop.
Where bike fitting goes wrong is fitters trying to up-sell product and those relying on fitting by numbers on a screen. Fitters who fit by numbers learn very little over time, because they think their software has all the answers.
totally what happened in that case study
Get on your bike .. and ride the sht out of it .. >> .. bike fitting .
that works too
Trump snake oil salesman meme? Those living outside of the US may forget rhat we enjoyed $2 gas, high employment, national security and money in our retirement accounts during those years, but sure, snake oil salesman...
Pure theatre for the rest of us watching. Shame he couldn’t stop the school shootings.
Noobs with more money than sense use bike fitters.
Back pain, arse pain, knee pain , I thought that was all part of the cycling "experience". At least it has been for me since 1990 😂
That was sold to me too, until I had a bike fit and realised it didn't have to be that way. Unfortunately it also meant changing many components, but being able to ride 6+ hours without issues was worth it.
nah, I had a revelation watching Norcal cycling a couple years back, where I realized there's no way he could be riding the way he was if he felt like I did (pain all over, as you say). A smaller bike later, and the huge majority of that pain is gone. Still chasing some saddle comfort though.