Were The Maesters Conspiring Against House Targaryen To Kill Their Dragons?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- The Maesters of the Citadel are one of the most powerful forces in Westeros, but their power was diminished when House Targaryen invaded the Seven Kingdoms. Did the Maesters conspire against the Targaryens, and did they successfully kill all of their dragons?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 The Grand Maester Conspiracy
01:56 Maesters Vs. Magic
05:30 Marwyn the Mage
08:14 Did The Maester Master Plan Work?
12:22 Outro 
Развлечения
Yes. Despite my love for House Targaryen, I wouldn’t blame anyone for not wanting to live under the oppressive fear of being roasted alive by living nukes.
LOL same, while I'm often like "yes please add weapons of mass destruction to this messy bitch nonsense" I also recognize the reality that dragons are not a positive force on society at large.
Meanwhile me praying on Targaryens and their dragons downfall
Sure before Targaryen in westeros was eternal peace and make love not war .
@@alexandrustilaFor sure, Targaryens initially brought stability and relative peace to Westeros. That’s true. But let’s not pretend that absolute monarchy with dragons was an ideal system of government 😅
@@HillsAliveYTExactly. Dragons are cool and fascinating in fiction, but they’d be absolutely terrifying IRL lol
My favourite crack theory is that the Maesters fed Baelor Hightower deliberately spicy beans so he’d fart in front of Elia Martell, thus causing her to choose Rhaegar over him, which eventually led to House Targaryen’s downfall
Seems pretty convincing to me
LOL this sounds like it came from Baelor Hightower's PR firm.
He was served the Dorne Special.
To me the greatest issue with the grand maester conspiracy is it doesn't seem to me they were doing enough. If they truly hated the dragons so much, they could have spiked the drinks of every targaryen queen and princess with moon tea, ensuring that the targaryen line and thus their protection of the dragons will die out.
Also, I frankly think that Marwin is full of it half the time he speaks. And most times when people reference the untrustworthiness of maesters it’s due to their own situation or personal ties. Like Manderly and his Lannister from Lannisport.
LOL facts I mean we've heard Marwyn speak like once but I don't believe a word he says.
it is certainly believable that through the centuries, several maesters were opposed to house targaryen and magic in general. but i think the "grand maester conspiracy" is similar to the "grand northern conspiracy" - namely that there is not one big, all encompassing conspiracy, but several smaller ones all working towards similar goals. every institution has values and after studying for years, not few people will probably come to similar conclusions (dragons bad etc).
i personally think it would be hilarious if every maester on their own worked against house targaryen. like, they believed that they were the only ones who were opposed to targaryens and therefore believed that no one could be trusted and each worked on their own to weaken the targaryens. and when you have 200 people each working against you... well, someone's gonna manage to kill you.
I think this is probably a more realistic POV, I don't think there was some institutional mandate to oppose House Targaryen but I think most people in positions of power would have naturally been opposed to them for a multitude of reasons.
Like even the high septon went against meagor incest marriage because he wanted him to marry his daughter
We know there are maesters who don't faithfully serve like Pycelle... but that's because he's a Tywin loyalist. When Tyrion removes him and the Citadel is about to appoint a Tyrell to replace him, Tywin reversed that and re-instates Pycelle.
I’m of the opinion that Marwyn was not necessarily wrong, but was also a biased source. It’s certainly believable that a bunch of privileged old men might look down on whatever they can’t control, but it’s also believable that Marwyn just felt ostracized despite being the literal Archmaester of Magic.
House of the Dragon also gives an interesting picture of the maesters at court. We see the grand Maester (Mellos?) who treated Aemma and Baelon and Viserys was clearly near incompetent at his job in a medical sense, which might have been intentional as part of a conspiracy, but could have also just been a prideful old man that didn’t want to accept others’ help in doing his job, (Edit: and for whatever reason he didn’t study much medicine but still got appointed as Grand Maester for all his other skills). Take for example Orwyle’s influence on the treatments made to Viserys, and how once Orwyle takes over as grand Maester, Viserys’s health, while not improving, remains intact for much longer/declines more slowly than it likely would have under the “care” of his predecessor. (Edit: IIRC Mellos)
I also think that Viserys’s poor treatment was not intentional, as it came at a time where his death would not have been to House Hightower’s advantage. Him dying before Aegon’s birth or during his infancy would make Rhaenyra’s ascendancy a political cakewalk, or open the doors for Daemon to usurp the throne, depending on timing.
I’m also skeptical that the Maesters had any idea of how to meaningfully harm dragons, especially “in the egg” as they were implied to have done. Perhaps they had access to some secret text that Baelor the Bookburner decided was “evil pagan stuff” or whatever and as such their actions were hidden by time, given there’s also some implication that Aegon III may have helped with poisoning the last dragons and eggs, but that’s also not guaranteed.
I’m personally of the opinion that the Targaryens simply didn’t understand how their dragons fully worked. Considering that we know that Dragons in the Dragonpit tended to grow much smaller than the ones that lived freely on Dragonstone, and that eggs kept away from Dragonstone turned to stone, as well as the quote about “Dragons grow as long as they have food and freedom”, I think it’s safe to assume that many Targ dragons simply “had their life-flames” choked like a candle under a glass dome, and that it would have been as simple as keeping more dragons and eggs near the Dragonmont, a primordial source of fire-earth magic (it would seem) and they might have been fine.
I also have the headcanon that dragons are fueled both biologically (in the food sense) and magically (in the blood magic sense) by blood sacrifice, particularly of humans, so once the Targ dragons no longer have access to the Blood Magic excess of Old Valyria (last dragon to experience that was Balerion), they never grew to remotely the same size as they did in the old days. The only dragon post-conquest that can hold a candle to Balerion/Vhagar’s size category is Vermithor, who never languished in the Dragonpit.
I think that's probably a fair point about Marwyn given that he seems to be VERY into magic, ergo he would probably overestimate its persecution in the organization. Agreed on the Viserys point as well, if they wanted to weaken the Targaryens then they certainly had more than enough opportunities to do it while he was ill and they seemingly didn't. And, obviously agree that the Targaryens just didn't know enough about dragons to keep them alive, especially after the decimation of the Dance!
ETA: Also I LITERALLY did a video speculating the exact same thing about blood magic and dragons.
@@HillsAliveYT that being said of course, you did cover good points in the video, I think it is perfectly reasonable to believe that *something* anti-magic is going on with the Maesters, I am just not certain that the scale of it is particularly massive simply due the the complexity of such a thing compared to the tech level of the world.
Marwyn is most definitely wrong about the reason maester Aemon was at the Wall rather than serving as an archamester of the Citadel. It wasn't because he was distrusted, but instead because opponents of Aegon V wanted to crown Aemon instead and the Night's Watch oath (on top of his maester's oath) was his way of preventing being used as a political pawn. Marwyn's argument is incoherent, because he claims Aemon couldn't be trusted any more than Marwyn himself... but Marwyn himself WAS made an archmaester! No one in the Citadel seems to be acting against Marwyn, they just dismiss him. And Aemon doesn't warn Sam against the maesters like Marwyn does... because he doesn't seem to have believed in Marwyn's conspiracy theories.
Something I want to point out is that the Dragons as a species were flourishing up until the Dance of the Dragons. The Targeryans only had 3 dragons at the time of the conquest but had around 13 at the time of the Dance. It was the Dance that brought their decline.
Also, for me it is possible that the Meisters conspired to bring the Thargeryan dinasty to an end at the time of Robert's Rebelion, cuz their dinasty was never more than a few years without a succecion crisis. The Meisters may have hoped that helping to birth a new dinasty would give more stability to Westoros.
Well they kind of weren't though, because even if they had a lot of dragons, they were getting smaller and taking longer to grow on their own too, so something squirrelly was up there and I have my own theories about that, but I don't think the maesters were behind it.
@@HillsAliveYT and I agree you on why the dragons were not growing nor reproducing as fast.
@@HillsAliveYTell, most of the Dragons were being hatched in the Dragon Pit.
The other Dragons living on Dragonstone were growing just fine.
Surely, the Dragons would've been killed off by poisoning a lot sooner than well over 100 years after the Conquest. And all the time before the Conquest, no Dragons were reported to have been poisoned or getting smaller away from Valyria
And Tessarion in Oldtown grew just fine, and Lord Hobert as well as Otto and other Hightowers seem just fine with their Targaryen kin by blood
@@ibtiago18Hey, read my comment above, if you could. I'd like your opinion.
Of course the Maester's failed with that since Robert was just as corrupt as some of the previous kings, and they allowed him to be king because he had Targaryen blood through his grandmother. Something that Robert always liked to deny and claim it was ONLY his warhammer that allowed him his dynasty to rule. lol
"Opened a body and showed me the secrets that lie beneath the skin," just sounds like an autopsy to me though, haha
Yeah I probably should have added this in when I realized it wasn't clear enough but I had already finished recording the VO and hate having to add stuff in, but because of Marwyn's connections to Qyburn as well as Mirri's description of it I think that it was something that goes beyond rudimentary surgery.
Which is what it is 😊.
The way you break down the shows and books never fails to impress me. Even when I don't agree with you I very much understand where you're coming from, and what you said about if the maesters were able to destroy the dragons so quickly than it would've been done sooner GENIUS. Never thought about it that way. Do not stop making content please
I wouldn’t put it past them
Yea i think they would conspire
Well I generally think that they did conspire against the Targaryens and their dragons, but I don't know how effective their efforts really were.
@@HillsAliveYTI feel everyone eyes are on the maesters but don't look at the ones who benefit the most from such a thing the faith and Hightower's. I feel the faith is the one with true motivate as some else said the masetasrs would still exist in magics filed world and probably become mages so either way its a win win. But the faith of the seven can only have power in a world lacking magic. Plus any nuking of the faith would not deter them only inspire them to further revolt in the name of the gods no crime is wrong if tis inones religion. I feel the maesters are the scapegoats to the actually conspirators. After all the Citadel is a place filled with insecure , unneeded boys second and third born sons and bastards. The fact we the doctors and educators are thing and not the religious zealots
Excellent video! I personally lie more towards the idea that the Targayen knowledge blanks on the art of magic made them unable to sustain the dragons long enough, ultimately causing their ( dragons) eventual demise. As for Marwin, with the imminent Daenery's invasion, I think there is a possibility that he wants to elevate himself, by exposing the Master conspiracy, so when the Targayens reconquer Westeros, the magic biased maesters are executed, while the minority who want to utilize magic gain dominance in the Citadel, and possibly contribute in helping the Targayens extract lost Valyrian knowledge. If the Targayens ever managed to restore the glory of Old Valyria, the Maester faction could turned into the new mages ( Martin recently said in an interview with History of Westeros that the Mages were the second most powerful group after the Dragonlords in the Valyrian freehold, having access in the source of Valyrian power: The 14 flames).
Question: Do you subscribe to the theory that the Maesters gave a Valyrian steel sword to the Lannisters, who in return gave them tons of gold, with wich they ( maesters) hired the faceless men to cause the Doom of Valyria, by killing of the mages that controled the 14 flames? We read in The World of Ice and Fire, that in the Valyrian scrolls there was a prophecy that Lannister gold would cause the Doom of Valyria...
Thanks! And I definitely think that the Targaryen lack of magical knowledge contributed to the dragons' demise.
I don't really subscribe to the theory that the maesters or even the Faceless Men caused the doom though, I think it's simply that they used so much magic and it became so unstable that it essentially went full Chernobyl.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree. After all, even George RR Martin himself said in the same interview, that in this universe people are waking forces they probably shouldn't mess up with, leading to many accidents, implying the Doom was the most obvious one...
@@HillsAliveYT Question for me is, which role plays Dragonbinder in this History of Events. Company if the Cat gave me the idea that the Horn which Victarion has doesn't bind Dragons to you, because that kind of Connection seems not to relay to heavily on magic more like training an gigantic, firebreathing Dog who Acts like a Cat, into not eating you.
But she theorized that the Horn Dragonbinder Was used to control the Volcanos on the Valyrian Peninsula, according to legends that was the place where Dragons were born. I think it is possible that someone beging the Horn was the straw that broke the camels back and started the Doom, what are your thoughts?
An interesting addition is that it is possible that it was the citadel that used "Lannister Gold" to bankroll the faceless men's mission to cause the doom of valyria.
What is interesting is that the doom happened after dragons ended up on island of the coast of westeros, possibly seen as a last straw that made the maesters feel forced to take such drastic actions
I am not too big into this conspiracy because it realistically doesn't sound very plausible. I mean... how many maesters are there in Westeros? You telling me that all of them are in some big collusion to stem out magic through secret plotting? Specially when they themselves don't seem to have a good grasp on magical knowledge.
Are the maesters opposed to magic? Yeah. But hey make no secret of it. The maesters aren't just scholars, they are people concerned with the stability of the realm. It's fairly reasonable for them to be opposed to an element that is inherently unstable and demanding of (human) sacrifice. Compare this for example with the guild of alchemists or the warlocks of Quarth, who are constantly trying to seek power to themselves and often have no regard for the well being of others.
I think this conspiratorial spin on the maesters approach to magic is mainly a product of the distrust of the nobility of Westeros, whose ascent to power relies on magic tales and legends that justify them dominating a class of people below them. It has been shown quite consistently both in the books and the tv adaptations that the nobility is generally opposed to intellectualism, hence their distrust of maesters.
I think this is probably right as well, even if the maesters have a negative view towards magic or the Targaryens, the idea that they could orchestrate a massive, order-wide conspiracy without that conspiracy ever getting outed or even ONE maester going rogue is pretty much unbelievabl.
@HillsAliveYT I think making a video illustrating how the nobility of Westeros actively devaluing intellect because it serves the purpose to keep them in power would be a nice idea. ASOIAF's world is meant to be a reflection of our own medieval period, where the access to knowledge for the masses was actively curtailed to keep them submissive to a class of nobles and clergymen. Similar to your video on the taboo of kinslaying, I think your videos trying to deconstruct the society of Westeros are very cool.
Yeah I actually think that's an interesting topic too, because while education throughout the world is obviously pretty limited, I always thought it was interesting that in a lot of ways Westeros seems to be kind of archaic in comparison to a lot of what we see in Essos. A lot of the Free Cities seem to be way more advanced and developed than Westeros is, and while I think geography obviously has an impact, I think there are other factors at play there.
I just want to say that it always makes my day a little better when you uploade a new video. Thank you and keep up the good work.
💙Thank you! 💙
Dance did 70% of the work. When numbers were that low, Maesters came in to finish them off.
reading fire and blood and the chapters around Aneys and Maegor really make me feel like there is a grand maester conspiracy
I'm a tad skeptical but it is interesting that the Targaryen dynasty nearly collapsed after a single generation, and I don't doubt that the maesters would have fostered any conflict there that they could get away with.
@@HillsAliveYTTo be fair, all it takes is one generation to destroy a dynasty. It happened multiple times throughout human history. It takes generations to build a dynasty up but only one to completely destroy it.
It’s fairly obvious that the Maesters conspired to remove House Targaryen and the dragons from power/existence. And while they succeeded for a time, they like you said ultimately failed. Because they underestimated nature. Like Jeff Goldblum said- “I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way.”
LOL I love that you attributed it to Jeff Goldblum instead of Ian Malcolm.
It wasn't nature. IF the masters dabbled in destroying the dragons they succeeded in degenerating them and reducing their numbers considerably.
That however, didn't mean that dragons had gone entirely extinct. Because there was always the possibility of dragons living somewhere else on Planetos. Or of some dragon eggs laying around just waiting to find their way into the right hands...
@@saymyname2417 that ain’t true before the dance dragon weren’t becoming smaller they were becoming more … again three dragons come to Westeros , one die, then within aegon’s life time for more are born … that’s 30 years , during jae’s reign vermithor grows up to be so massive it’s comparable to vhagar , and same thing with the silverwing, also during jae’d early reign we have two possible more dragons born caraxes, and meelys both grow to be real war dragons said to be matches for vhagar , then syrax and seasmoke are born in the late days of Jae then viserys’s reign is followed with a dragon boom with 6 new dragons nearly reaching adulthood or being adults by the time he dies while Like 5 more hatched in his late reign and this is not counting how the wild dragons seem like real war dragons also the last dragon being small may be because ir a newborn
Also like newborns die all the time , and probably there are hundreds of newborn skulls in dragonstone from newborn dragons who died , the last dragon and morning only are relevant cause a massive war killed all the adults and those younger dragons didn’t have as much time to grow as balerion and company
The text literally contradicts itself like yes younger dragons are smaller then older ones but that’s just a time variation difference , and how growth works and dragon birth rates were going up before the dance
@HillsAliveYT 😅😅Heard it from Goldblum first, so I went with him😂😂
@@Ule_blood - Maybe I don't remember that correctly but I thought at the time of the conquest there were three dragons, by the time of the Dance there were thirteen.
But they were smaller, grew slower, were not that fierce and somewhat feeble and even sometimes born crippled or blind.
So, while their numbers had increased they had degenerated for unknown reasons and in the end this would have let to their demise with or without war.
People claim to love the realism in GRRM works but when they see the realism of dragons existing they get mad because "noo they hate the dragoninos!!"
i hope your channel gets the recognition it deserves!!
youre my favorite content creator followed by disputed lands, then whycreate.
Thank you! And I love those creators!
@@HillsAliveYT
youre very well spoken, and thoughtful.
you remind me so much of disputed lands. i think since she is very absent from the YT's that you have very well taken that deep dive mantle up!
Agree!
I think personally that it was a domino effect of all the people Valerians made slaves, coming back to bite em! and that the Marsters only put the last nail on the coffin. Being a huge empire, makes huge problems...
Amazing take Hills Alive!!
LOL, mo' empire mo' problems.
@@HillsAliveYT more liiike : mo' empire mo' karmic bitchslaps. ;D
I don't think the maesters seek to control magic, but to destroy it. The maesters are political, certainly, but they also view themselves as protectors of knowledge and its uses. Yes, this gives them power, but they seem to believe they have some responsibility in it's use. Magic is power uncontained by any sense of morality or responsibility. In short, they see themselves as the adults on the continent, so letting the bloodthirsty children tamper with extremely unstable power would be anathema to the maesters. Their methods can be extreme, but the consequences of failure are more so, and they know this because they've studied it. Look at Marwyn and Qyburn. Those two are recklessly bringing back magic, without concern for how its used. To them it's merely something to study and master. If he Citadel merely wanted power, they' encourage their studies, so long as it was kept hush hush. Instead they drive them out, and if Marwyn can be believed, even kill to keep control of their own wayward magic users. Again, I'm not saying that the maesters aren't concerned with power, but I also believe that they feel a responsibility to contain and eliminate it for what they perceive the good of Westeros to be.
Yeah I think that's definitely a fair point, as we can see internally the organization isn't supportive of magic with members like Qyburn or Marwyn, so they're likely genuinely not about that magic life.
Who knows how much they were involved, but regardless, its pretty based. Destroying Targaryens always is. Maesters and Hightowers 🔛🔝
I love this theory, it pulls up so many interesting questions about power i love it
House Targaryen
- “Dragons were such majestic and wise beings.”
Maesters
- “Man fuck dragons. All my homies hate dragons.”
The reverence of dragons is a direct inverse correlation to the abundance of dragons.
I think Marwyn taught Merri how to conduct an autopsy.
The maesters are pretty much the only good part about Westerosi society.
Fans: MONSTERS!
I think it’s likely that before Aegon’s conquest, maesters were rare outside of the Reach. Just think, how many kings and lords would invite a member of a foreign organization to advise them? I doubt that many would.
Rather, I think that Aegon’s use of maesters lended legitimacy to the organization. The maesters were leveraged as a force of unity for the Seven Kingdoms, with the inconvenient side effect of empowering the Hightowers.
I honestly believe that they did, but that feeds into my conspiracy that who is on the throne is not who is on the throne. In order to get rid of all dragons... and why they did not interact with dragons although they have Targaryean blood.
11:35 Well the difference is that Valyria was far far beyond the power and influence the Targaryens ever wielded even at their zenith. Valyria likely had thousands of dragons and they didn't have any organization like the Citadel that was involved in some way in basically every castle or seat of power in the country. These things alone automatically would it make much harder for any widespread conspiracy to get rid of all the dragons to ever be sucessful in the Valyrian Empire like the theory supposes the Citadel did in Westeros. But I do agree that there probably isn't an overarching grand conspiracy to get rid of the dragons or magic by the maesters, I think it was probably way more decentralized than that, like many different maesters each had their own problems with the Targaryens and would work against them but there wasn't like an official institutional mandate from the Citadel about opposing the Targaryens. I think the Targaryens not maintaining the knowledge of Valyrian magic (for whatever reason) is what slowly caused their dragons to go extinct.
the conspiracy stems throughout the entirety of Oldtown, the Starry Sept in particular holds a vendetta against the Dragons. The Maesters are involved by their proximity to the Seven and its influence over the Hightowers. An Emissary from Braavos even proclaimed the High Septon as the true king in everything but name during Maegor's tyranny. Some of the Dragons who died during the Dance was by smallfolk riled up by the Shepard preaching against the Targaryens with the voice of the Seven.
I've been trying to come up with a solid idea about the fading of magic, and why it came back. More Dragons = More Magic doesn't ring true for me, plus it only seem that some magic - fire magic specifically - got weaker. Why didn't faceless and weirwood magic get weaker? I think the various comets are involved. But whatever is messing up the seasons could be using a lot of magic, so maybe that is part of it. And sometimes it's locational - stronger at the wall. So maybe there are places that are 'magically magnetic' where magic gathers. Or maybe magic moves like weather patterns or ocean currents and those have shifted. No concrete ideas in my brain, it'd be great to see some theorycrafting on that.
I don't think the Maesters changed the amount of magic, but i think they could have taken advantage of it fading, or made seem more mythical as they educate the children. House of the dragon seems to have less magic involved than current timeline. Not sure if that's just because it's a smaller number of locations, or what.
I wonder if it is a somewhat natural thing like the changing of the seasons or it was thrown out of whack like everything else too.
What do you think about the influence that Vaegon might have in the conspiracy? I like to think he joined precisely to bring down his family but then realized there was no conspiracy and founded it himself lol
Nah, I feel that Vaegon, while distant at times, wasn't cruel or uncaring to the extent people claim
I doubt Vaegon went ahead and decided to conspire against his own family and their Dragons.
I mean, why?
@@thalmoragent9344thanks you he kept to him self and wasn’t the most affectionate person but a no point in the story did he go out of his way to fuck with anyone.
Love this theory
I wanna see a video about alicent and larys.
What Marwyn taught Mirri doesn't sound like blood magic so much as it sounds like internal anatomy and surgery. That's what I thought when reading that passage at least. Admittedly, in the context of ASoIaF, it could be either.
Great video, though I'd like to make a statement to the ones behind this theory 100%
I don't think the Maesters and Hightowers are behind everything. People hate Otto and Alicent so much that they'll say anything to hate on Oldtown at this point.
If Otto wanted Aemma dead, she'd have died a while ago, Laena died of child birth issues as well, but the Surgeons in Pentos have no interest in killing her like you'd claim Maesters would. I don't even think foul play was ever considered for the reasoning of Prince Baelon's death, but all of a sudden people make it seem like every time sometimes wrong happens to the Targaryens, it MUST be the Hightowers and Maesters behind it
If they didn't want a strong Targaryen Monarch on the Throne, Jaehaerys would've died a lot sooner than he did, as would've Viserys.
Alyssa Targaryen, Daella Targaryen, Aemma Aryn, Laena Velaryon, many women of noble birth have had issues giving birth and died because of it, just as the women amongst the smallfolk, it's not like the Maesters are behind everything that ever happens under the sun.
If the Maesters and Hightowers wanted the Targaryens and their Dragons dead, the Dynasty wouldn't have lasted for 300 years, that's for sure. Prince Daeron was in Oldtown with Tessarion, but she grew without issue.
I get it, there may be some conspiracies here and there regarding the Maesters, but if the claim is that Oldtown has been trying to get rid of the House of The Dragon since its established rule, the Targaryens would've been long dead by the time of the Dance.
They worked with Aegon the Conqueror and were chill, they didn't like the incest issues but with Jaehaerys and the "Doctrine of Exceptionalism", they let it slide, they liked Jaehaerys and it was fine, Viserys was unhealthy yes, but that's likely due to the death of Balerion. Dragonriders gain health buffs from bonding with their Dragons, so if a Dragon dies but it's rider lives, I imagine that the rider would either loose those benefits or get sorta unhealthy without them. Even if that's just speculation, Viserys lived a very long while for a man who was supposedly "poisoned by the Maesters".
This Maester Conspiracy has some credence yes, but now people are getting out of hand with this, it's getting ridiculous. 💀
Yeah those are all very good points and I agree that if squads like the maesters or the Hightowers really wanted to undermine the Targaryens, there were a lot more moves they could have made to ensure that their dynasty died.
@@HillsAliveYT
Thanks for the response, and keep up the great work.
Can't wait to see your videos once Season 2 of HotD comes out. You've been a breathe of fresh air amongst the community with these often well put videos
Yes, I've been thinking that for a while. I think they slowly poisoned Viserys. Otto Hightower was way too involved and concerned with him always drinking the milk of the poppy. From the moment he sen't his daughter to comfort the king, he had his silent coup planned. Alicent just sat there and blindly let him do whatever he wanted to do. She's not as innocent as she pretended to be.
The answer is hell to the yes!! The maesters went to Valyria regularly to study. I don’t think they were studying science and finance. They were learning as much as they could about magic and dragons. So is there any group who would know more about bringing harm to dragons? If you notice Marwyn said who do you think killed the dragons the first time. He didn’t say who do you think killed the Targaryen dragons. Speaking of Targaryen dragons… Do you not think the way Balerion died seems a bit off? We’re told multiple times that given enough food and room to grow dragons won’t stop growing. But somehow Balerion stopped growing! And this really happened in the last 18 yrs of Balerion’s life. Balerion seemed like it was just fine before that when princess Alyssa went to claim it!
I don't know if he was teaching Mirri blood magic. He was just doing a dissection and sharing an anatomy lesson. The maesters do that, it's mentioned several times. Good knowledge to have if you're a healer, how the body works inside. Can look like supernatural knowledge.
I had the thought that he was showing her some kind of surgery as well, but given that Qyburn says that Marwyn was one of the only people who understood his "thinking" plus Mirri's kind of weird description of whatever Marwyn shows her makes me think that even if it were some kind of pseudo-scientific lesson, there was some seriously dark magic shenanigans going on there.
@@HillsAliveYT Adding the Qyburn link does make it more plausible. But I still wonder if anything Qyburn does is magical based, or if he's just discovered some more advanced surgical techniques than known at the time. For example, maybe he just gave the Mountain a lobotomy after excising large chunks of infected flesh from him, so the resurrection is just a mute giant who didn't register pain cuz his brain is missing chunks.
Maybe it's a stretch, but I like the idea. And brain surgeries have a history into prehistoric times in real world so...who knows. Love your videos, you come up with really original insights into the story.
I really hope a Dance makes this TV Show cannon
I don't think there has been a legitimate grand maester conspiracy (Marwyn is clearly messing with Sam to keep him off balance and dependent), but I don't agree that they COULDN'T have kiled the dragons.
I actually think the Maesters NOT being intensely magical people might have helped them to kill the dragons. There's some evidence in asoiaf that magic can be used to counter/mess with other magic (the Wall stopping the Others but not the wildlings, Dany potentially usurping Miri's fire protection, the wards on Storm's End, etc) and dragons are intensely magical beings- it stands to reason that a great many magical attacks would either be of lessened effect against them or are things the freehold would have had countermeasures against. If you have a hammer everything looks like a nail and magic is a very big hammer- people would probably try to attack them with magic even when it wasn't particularily effective.
In contrast, the maesters study magic but aren't defined by it. They'd be far more likely to utilize their trusted positions and non-magical means to affect the dragons (and targaryens) than trying to bespell them from afar. It's much simpler to slip a large amount of entirely mundane poison into a dragon's meal than to attempt to work around protection spells and any natural adaptations that make them less suceptible to magical attack. This sort of thing would have been much less of an issue in Valyria because they had systems for such things, very loyal retainers who were raised to value dragons, and a well spread out collection of the creatures- the Targs had none of that in Westeros once they assimilated.
That idea also fits thematically with GRRM's other plotlines in this story, particularily the repeated hints that Valyria fell due not to foreign magic or might but because of either overreach or an internal threat leading to coordinated assassinations. Magic in this world is a strange and esoteric thing, but it will not save a man, institution, or even country from folly. And there are few greater follies than genuinely relying upon people who have every reason to want your power diminished if not destroyed entirely.
How did the maesters lose anything or have any reduced influence with Aegon's conquest? They aren't like the Faith, who rebelled against the Targaryens and were pushed to accept a "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" after enormous bloodshed. They get to appoint their own Grand Maester to the Small Council, whereas every other member is selected by the King. I can see how they might have gotten irritated at Rhaenyra specifically for removing Orwyle's chain of office and giving it to her preferred candidate Gerardys, but that doesn't put them at odds with the Targaryens as a whole.
Honestly, im 100% on the maesters side in their schemes to get rid of dragons and House Targaryen, despite what HoTD wants the audience to believe, the Targaryens are not the heroes of the story, they are antagonists, if they still had their dragons they would destroy Westeros, and im glad the dragons and the Targaryens died out (No, Jon Snow doesnt count, neither any of the Targaryen bastards)
Agreed. They caused more damage to westeros than had ever been done before they came save only the long night.
Yes
Isn’t there some speculation they may have poisoned Balerion? It’s unclear if dragons can truly die from old age.
They might but Balerion wasn’t in healthy shape either. He flew to Valyria and came back wounded and bleeding, his rider had weird fire worms inside of her that killed her. Then he kinda hid in the dragonpit for 40 years (we know dragons stop growing while in captivity) and Viserys flew atop him one last time. Like his last rider, maybe they were poisoning him, but he was already sick and he might have died anyways.
@@ValentinianistThe Aerea tale is so haunting yet fascinating. Good points, very ambiguous situation for sure! We may never know.
never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake
-Napoleon
If this theory is true, then the conspiring maesters must be happy with the dance of the dragons lol. House targeryen doing their work by destroying itself...
(Spoilers of the dance of the dragon ending)
And Poor aegon iii feared and hated dragons at the end when the dance was over. Marked as dragonsbane
Algormancy!
I think the Grand Maester Conspiracy is real, and I also think that makes the maesters the true heroes of the story. If I lived in Westeros, I absolutely would love to see dragons vanish from the planet and for the often unstable tyrants riding them to lose their power. Killing all dragons in Westeros is like achieving complete nuclear disarmament on Earth. If any group or movement achieved that on earth, we would shower them with Nobel prizes.
What power did they lose? 0:39 they don’t rule
If the Maesters and the Faith are the tools of the Andals and the Starry Wisdom.. and the Andals are the disguised remnants of the Ghiscari come to destroy the Pact and the remnants of Valyria’s Dragons and riders… then yep! Long game…
Thats wild! The starry wisdom seem to be a remnant of the great empire of the dawn though, which seem to be the original dragonlords.
5:52 and he said don’t trust him and other maester don’t like him why would he just tell Sam that make it make sense
There is this weird thing about dragons becoming smaller, weaker and more short-lived with every generation under Targaryen rule...
I like the theory that the dragons went extinct over the century since the Doom because there simply wasn't the blood magic required to sustain them. Fire and Blood. I think it was In Deep Geek who did a good breakdown of this?
LOL lordt I hope not because I did a video about the exact same thing and I usually try to check that I'm not accidentally ripping someone else off before I actually make something!
The power of the maesters is limited to Westeros so they couldn't plot their way to destroy Valyria as such. In the end what destroyed the Valyrians was not the use of magic but what many believe to be is the great reckoning of the Faceless Men that we learn when Arya asked why didn't the first faceless gave the gift of death to the masters and not the slaves and the Kind Man told her: They did eventually but that is a story for a another time. So it was a plot in the shadows that ended the dragonlords for good instead of any army or any other kind of magic. Something that probably the Maesters are capable.
Their power as institution is measured by the extensive net their presence is known from Castle Black at the Wall to Sunspear in Dorne. Every petty lords wishes to host a maester and every high lord has one at his service. Though there is quote of the books that raises a good question. At which point does the lords serve the maesters instead of the maester serving them? The lives of the highborn are so dependable of the maesters that they forget that as much healing the maesters are taught at the Citadel that they learn as much of poisons too. Maesters reads their correspondence, are trusted with their letters, secrets, health of their family and so on that the lives of those the maesters serve are literally at the hand of them. Pycelle is a great example of maester treachery, Maester Coleman in the Vale supplying Sweetrobin with a slowly but deathly concoction by Baelish's orders, Maester of White Harbour that Wyman Manderly knows to keep tabs about him to inform the Iron throne since the maester was born a Lannister of Lannisport, Maester Walys the one that instigated Rickard Stark in his southern ambitions and so on.
I don't know if there was a Great conspiracy but that there were agents that or perhaps many a group of individuals of the citadel, the faith of the Seven and others that took upon themselves to take the power of the Targaryens by practically taking everything that made them unique so they became as manageable as any other House in Westeros. Practically destroying the valyrian culture and making them as any house of the South.
Hum? To me what Marwyn teach to Mirri Maz Surr sounds to me much more like basic biology through an autopsy showing the organs and how they relate to each others, not blood magic..,
Do you consider other low fantasy series like Witcher?
I haven't actually watched The Witcher but yeah, if I ever have any time to make content about non-ASOIAF things I would consider it for sure.
@@HillsAliveYT Witcher is less of a political drama than ASOIAF but it still an interesting low fantasy series in my opinion, Geralt is an unemployed monster hunter but he still navigates constant political strife and games
I think that the Maesters did manipulate the Politics in Westeros in a way that would bring the downfall of the Dragons, a.k.a. that would bring forward the "Dance of the Dragons" and later the Blackfyre Rebellions. They wanted the Targaryens gone and in that capacity, they succeeded somehow. In the Show GoT, they ultimately failed, because the Three-Eyed Raven a.k.a. Brynden Rivers became the new King in disguise of Brandon Stark. They realized that only Dragons would be the Downfall of Dragons and therefore decided to make that happen.
In the Books, I think they will succeed, in the capacity that a Stark will rule over most of the Seven Kingdoms, but ultimately fail, because Bran can't father Children, which means his Sisters will become his Heirs, Rikkon won't because I think he will go with Osha beyond the Wall, that Wildling Woman is now his Family, so I doubt he will stay with his Siblings in the End, I think he will go with Osha and become a Leader of the Free Folk.
Daenerys will die, and Jon will be revealed as Rhaegars Heir, which again brings Succession-Problems IF Jon ever fathers Children. Solution for Bran, one of his Sisters either Sansa or Arya marries Jon and becomes the Mother of Jon's children, therefore Jon's Children become the Heirs of Bran. Politically the ideal solution, but personally I doubt that neither Sansa nor Arya are happy if someone brings up that idea, I mean they did grow up as Siblings, but both know that it will secure a Peaceful Future and therefore a safe time for the Common Folk, something especially Arya will advocate for, after she saw how the Common Folk suffers under the War and decisions of the Nobles.
If you remember in the original outline GRRM for the story Jon and Arya were relieved once it discovered that they weren’t brother sister but cousins.
I honestly don't think that the maesters orchestrated the Dance just because the Targaryens are messy enough to hoist themselves on their own petard, but I definitely think they had a vested interest in weakening Targaryen power as much as possible.
@@HillsAliveYT As usual we have the same opinion, I just have not the english Vocabulary in my head to find the right words😩 That is really frustrating.
Thanks for your content, it was entertaining and educating as always. 🤗 Your effort and care you put into your work is highly appreciated.
@@jjh2456 GRRM is a gardener who knows how the Stark-Girls will feel about that if its ever happening.
I have issues with the grand maester conspiracy in the scale , like there no way this is kept secret , and in the way it’s used to dismiss any crime tue blacks make in the book as propaganda , also how is it kinda takes away from House Targaryens own … also marwin straight up lies about stuff in his ramble to Sam … maester aemon ain’t on the wall cause the citadel wanted him away he’s there to stop lords angry with eggs reform from conspiring , and yes targaryen men can thrive in the citadel (Vaegon did) against marwin’s own words of maester aemon’s career choice
Yes, although the maesters are sketchy I think they're too smart to actually make a "grand conspiracy," and attempting to destroy the dragons when the Targaryens still had dragons and could literally nuke the Citadel whenever they wanted would be one hell of a risk to take when there are much subtler ways to get what they want.
@@HillsAliveYT is more marwin’d take vas little evidence … maester aemon was just helping bran sleep and bran is a child who’s magic obsessed so you know
If they were, you could hardly blame them.
I think the maesters did kill the dragons, but they weren’t conspiring from the beginning to do so. They didn’t actually make the attempt until after the Dance.
Firstly, the idea that the dragons has their growth stunted due to being housed in the Dragonpit is absurd. Yes, the later dragons were smaller, but they didn’t live as long before they got killed off in the Dance. Balerion was over 200, Vhagar was 180. The next biggest dragon was Vermithor, and he was in his 90s when he died. They all get younger and smaller from there.
Pre-Dance, there’s no real indication that living in the Dragonpit is hurting the dragons. There’s no description of them being deformed, sickly, or depressed. After the Dance, however, we do have descriptions of dragons being sickly and deformed, for instance, the Last Dragon, who was , tiny, stunted and produced a bunch sterile eggs.
The way I see it, the maesters probably decided to get rid of the dragons after seeing the carnage caused by the Dance. They had the perfect opportunity to poison them. The dragons who were alive were all smaller and weaker, more vulnerable to being poisoned. The Dragonkeepers, who were sworn to defend the dragons and were knowledgeable in caring for them were all dead, while the Dragonpit itself was in ruins. The adult Targs (aka the experienced dragonriders) were all gone, and House Targaryen was comprised of a bunch of children, headed by a traumatized tween boy.
Basically, the order dedicated to protecting the dragons were gone, and all the people experienced in dragon lore were dead. Dragon civil war has just devastated the realm, giving the maesters a strong incentive to eliminate them and ensure such destruction was never again unleashed. With security around the dragons the weakest it had ever been, plus a king who hated dragons, the opportunity was perfect.
I agree with most of this video, but I think you sort of misunderstand the general idea of the maesters killing the dragons. Yeah house Targaryen themselves are the only ones that could do actual damage to a house Targaryen with dragons, but what if the maesters/the Oldtown triad knew this and pulled the strings to start the Targaryen civil war?
We need to look at Aegon III's rule and regency to see how the Maesters may have conspired to kill the dragons.
Did they have the power to do such a thing?
Absolutely. Maester Munkin held absolute power as sole regent during the end of Aegon III's regency. Additionally, Aegon himself hated dragons. Did he conspire WITH Munkin and the citadel? Maybe.
We will need to see Fire and Blood II before we jump to such conclusions. But the evidence is there.
Yes, yes they did
I wouldnt blame the maesters at all. In our own world I have no doubt that the majority of people would want nukes to be completely disarmed and thrown away.
That being said, if the maesters solely hated dragons then all they'd need to do is just open the nights watch gates and let the Others come and dog walk them.
Yes. They were. And they are the Heroes because of it. Death to magic
I 100% buy the Maester Conspiracy, and I'm on their side
4:26 had to google the actors' names, they look like effing twins.
New conspiracy Melos was a Beesbury before he joined the maesters. lol
His name is even Melos... mel...honey. Cute Easter egg.
I always figured the maesters and the faith gave in to plural, within-the-family marriages so quickly despite public objection in the hope that the Targaryens would inbreed to their own demise. If your parents are siblings and THEIR parents were siblings and THEIRS were aunt and nephew for generations, ya start to look a lil funky and act a lil funky, right? Figured the maesters knew the dangers of inbreeding and let it happen anyway because it was easier to watch the Targaryens weaken their own bloodlines to a point where they'd be unpopular with the people due to their actions or appearance, easy to manipulate due to insanity, or infertile (scaled, dragon babies included) than to undermine them directly at risk of being barbequed.
Electricity was magic
Unfortunately not
😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
I believe they tried and almost succeeded
I think we all forget that Targaryens conquered, mass murdered and oppressed a diversity of people with their own culture, beliefs, and social heirarchies. So yes, I am all for the fall of House Targaryen.
Now you have to do a video about what DID happen to the dragons. Okay, so you don't think the Maesters did it. Then what or who did? I have my own theories, but for the sake of completeness.......
Actually I did! ruclips.net/video/ReZZIMIIJ_M/видео.html
@@HillsAliveYT Ah! I missed that one! Thanks, watching now. Wait, did you put this in your cards? Never mind. I'll watch it again. :)
I sure hope not. I just don’t like conspiracy/secret society plot lines. They honestly bore me.
Why you acting like this is confirmed
im team Green but im really Team Maesters. nothing good has come out of ANY religion or magic in westeros.
I think that maester conspiracy might have been misunderstood.
We see this mainly through maester Marvyn lenses. He spoke with anger and dissapointment. As if the the maesters were monsters for destroying the dragons.
But were they really?
Everyone thinks that maesters shouldn't snuff out magic, that magic should be free to use for everyone. Should it be really? A cross the entire asoiaf saga we saw one thing.
MAGIC IS BAD.
Most magic users were in some way more or less insane.
Valyrians build an empire which literally tortured and enslaved people for their sick experiments and greed.
The fire magic or this R'hol cult seems as some satanic cult that gets off from burning people alive. Not to mention the people they raise from the death are more or less zombies.
Bloodraven is self explanatory I think.
Euron the fucking crows eye as a cherry on this eldritch horror cake.
Now with all that information imagine that a group of wise men, educated people see this clusterfuck of insanity that is magic and say NOPE and basicaly quarantine the entire thing.
When Luwin sees that Bran has magic he tries to help the kid because he knows those dreams will led to nothing good. And afer reading books all I have to say is that Jojen deserved everything that happened to him for bringing Bran to Bloodraven. Just because you see something in your dreams, shouldn't mean you should follow them without question!!!!
Total Targaryen Death!
Why you acting like this is confirmed