An important thing to remember about sword terminology is that for most of history (with some very brief and minor exceptions), whatever sort of sword anyone was using was most often just called a "sword." You wouldn't have worried about an exact name unless someone said, "What kind of sword?" Even then, there might not have been a specific, accepted name for it because many of the names we apply to them have been invented in the last hundred years or so. A bolognese "side sword," for instance, was just a "spada" (Italian for "sword") to a Bolognese man. It's most likely that if someone said "What kind of sword," the person relating the story would say "You know, one of those fancy new swords with little ring for your index finger" All of our terminology is essentially an effort to avoid repeatedly having to answer that annoying question, "What kind of sword do you mean?" As much as I hate to say it, though, given the amount of such clarification as this video that I find all over the internet, I don't think it's really accomplished that goal.
Patton's sword is officially called a "saber" and he is going by the secondary, more French, interpretation of "saber", which is a light fencing or dueling sword having an arched guard that covers the back of the hand and a tapering flexible blade with a full cutting edge along one side and a partial cutting edge on the back at the tip. Definition 2a from Merriam -Webster. Not Defintion 1 which is a cavalry sword with a curved blade, thick back, and guard.
I'm from Sweden, and I recall reading somewhere that at one point all our cavalry swords were referred to as "sabers" regardless if they were used for cutting or thrusting. Additionally, I recall one source claiming that the definition of a saber to some degree had to do with the design of the hilt - specifically, swords with curved tangs/grips were usually considered a type of saber. I suspect a lot of this comes down to local conventions and definitions that shifted over time. (Cavalrymen, for example, might have kept referring to their thrusting swords as sabers out of tradition.) Ultimately, the meaning of the word is determined by the context in which it is used, because a living language is an evolving language.
Interestingly, model 1913 swords seem to have been called "sabers" officially, as in the 1914 "saber" exercise. I guess they thought the word "saber" was more fashionable than a mere "sword" back then. :P
Depending on the context it can be referred to as both I guess. As a part of 'Daisho' it is a longsword. From western point of view on how to categorize swords it is a sabre.
Holy shit. I once went to a production of "Midsummer Night's Dream" that had everyone (everyone human, anyway) in Edwardian-period outfits. The soldiers carried these swords with sabre guards and rapier blades. I thought they were odd. Little did I realize that those were 1908 pattern cavalry trooper's swords. The attention to detail that the prop crew must have had is simply amazing.
Noah Weisbrod More likely those were what is known by the SAFD (Society of American Fight Directors) as Hollywood Single Swords. They are essentially just sport-fencing saber hilts fitted with stage combat epee blades. They're massively cheap to make and take a ton of abuse so they are a go-to for a lot of stage armorers. They often stand in for military swords, pirate cutlasses as those are not widely mass produced for stage combat (unlike rapiers, arming swords, longswords, and smallswords) and are visually similar to a layman. These were VERY popular in old swashbuckling films (Zorro, for instance). www.roguesteel.com/single-swords.html
You see this too in translating Asian blades. Dao being the term for any curved blade (seemingly regardless of size of handhold length to include polearem weapons) vs. gim (straight blade). Too many people refer to the leaf-bladed dao as a "Chinese Broadsword."
Knife is a bad translation, like many attempts to translate any sino-tibetan dialect to, well anything else. Dao are curved blades. With the exception of Tang dynasty blades (and a recurrence in the late Ming dynasty) which while largely straight, held a very slight curve at the point of percussion (ie the end of the blade). It was an effort to try and emphasize thrusting while maintaining some slashing capability. This gets a little complicated when dealing with foreign words/objects, as is often the case in these languages. For example the dagger used by the Jingpo people is sometimes referred to as a dao, even though it to can come in both straight and curved bladed varieties.
Not just Asian blades, either. There's a German weapon commonly called a messer, which is somewhat similar to the dao, but the name literally means knife. There are examples in other languages as well.
c johnson Well, strictly speaking, the word "dao"(刀) just means a single-edged sword or "knife", whereas the word "jian"(劍) refers to a double-edged sword. So, a dao can be a knife, but some characters may be added to indicate its use. For example, a kitchen knife is called a "菜刀," "菜" meaning dishes. Interestingly, there's no particular Chinese character "exactly" corresponding to the word sword, a bladed weapon (long-enough) however its curvature is and whether it has two or one edges, while sometimes dao and jian are used interchangeably, in a loose sense.
They're not sabers, sabers always have a curved blade. In Britain you would call them broadswords or backswords, should they have a double-edged or single-edged blade respectively.
FairbairnSykes You forgot the M1859 Marine NCO Sword (in actuality a sabre) the only change is the change in width in 1918 (making it more ceremonial than anything else)
Matt, Obi Wan-Kenobi just called in. He says that even though the Jedi Light Sabers have completely straight blades and almost no hand protection, not even the Sith were evil enough to imply that they had been misnamed for generations and should really be called Light Swords. You are to surrender yours IMMEDIATELY to the Jedi Council as your honourary Jedi rank has just been revoked...
Both the 1908 and the Patton sword were essentially nothing more than the old Polish koncerz, which itself was just a glorified BBQ spit. My opinion, anyhow.
I'm guilty. I did know that the curve denoted a saber while a straight blade was a sword, but the term "1908 pattern saber" was so prevalent that I just went along. However, since you said please, I'm going to break that habit. 1908 pattern sword.
I do sort of like the looks of the early 20th century sabers, they sort of look like something from the old swashbuckler films, guess maybe because prop deparment had to find something
Good point! Er, I mean, you cut to the point here. Just kidding :- ). But seriously, excellent video. As an Asian martial artist, I find all your videos very helpful in articulating Western martial arts, which in turn enriches my own practice.
I see what you're saying and I agree, these pattern swords are actually rapiers. But I can tell you from personal experience that no self respecting cavalryman will call his sword anything but a saber. That's why the name stuck with these swords. It becomes about semantics. Cases in point. The F-117 is designated as F for fighter aircraft. Technically the F-117 Stealth Fighter is not a fighter, but a light bomber, but not self respecting fighter jockey who piloted this cutting edge (at the time) aircrafts would want to be called a bomber so the Air Force went with the "fighter" designations for sex appeal sake. Another case case in point is tank destroyer and anti tank gun. What's the difference? None, just a designation. But tank destroyer sounds sexier. So sholagladiatoira is correct to say this is not a saber, but an organization with traditions and terminologies that it is accustomed to ain't changing any time soon.
So what about a lightsabre? Straight blade, but definitely more of a cutter than a thruster ;) On a more serious note though, Matt, this was another excellent video but I feel you are let down by the sound quality. The kind of mic you are using picks up all the reverberation from the room and gives the sound an amateur feel that doesn't match the professional levels of the actual content. I think you should invest in a lapel mic which would pick up your voice and reject the reflections from the walls. I think it's something most people don't pick up on consciously. but good quality sound makes all the difference unconsciously, giving you that nice fuzzy warm "I'm in the hands of a pro" feeling.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but why would cavalry need a specialized thrusting sword? I feel like the sabre would be superior to any sort of strictly thrusting sword on horseback, no? I mean, if you thrust a sword into someone on horseback, there is a high probability you'll both go flying, no?
Listening to matt easton totally wasted is kind of interesting. I totally love your videos Matt. I just like laughing at your bald head...... =D. no really great videos, keep it up.
So, who defines what a "saber" is? Certainly many historical examples of the types of straight sword you describe were called sabers by their contemporaries and users, notably the Patton Saber itself. Wikipedia (granted, it's Wikipedia) states "Although sabres are typically thought of as curved-bladed slashing weapons, those used by the world's heavy cavalry often had straight and even double-edged blades more suitable for thrusting". I don't mean to sound overly confrontational, but why should we use this classification instead of any other?
gogerychwyrndrobwll i think its more of a language related topic,because in other language than english,in my case french,sabers are a type of swords...and the heavy pallash used by heavies was often called in napoleonic time lance-sword(lance-épée) lol also in the 17th century the pallash hae also been refered to as demi-épée(half sword) because it was like a sword but with only one edge....so i guess the naming of those weapons are vague because they changed with time and some are particulary hilarious...the triangular section sword that was still popular in the 1700 was called latte(literally strip) and by common people pincette(pinch-slapper)
Ragimund VonWallat Nice examples. That's just the point, isn't it? Why is this name "more correct" than this other name? Who's the central authority determining sword names?
i dont know if i can reach you by posting on such an old video but i have a question about the M1861 Austrian Infantry Officers Sabre. (they are extremely common in austria although its hard to differentiate between later police versions and actual Austrohungarian military models) Ive owned an antique for quite some time now and i dont know what purpose exactley it was meant to fulfill. It has a very narrow blade and is quite thick and stiff. It is however curved and apart from the blade width it looks like a cutting sword. Is it possible they tried to make a dedicated thrusting sword that has a slight curve? or is it a cut and thrust sword that just happens to have a narrow blade but still cuts well?
Sorry, but do you practice swordsmanship as a business or as a hobby? And can someone make money out of selling swords and doing things like blacksmithing? Thanks.
General Leonard Wood, Chief of Staff of US Army was presented with the result of Patton's studies. He tried cutting the back of his chair with both his own older pattern Saber, and the Patton Saber. He noted that though the Patton Saber was superior in the thrust, it also cut more deeply into the back of his chair, demonstrating its superiority in the cut.
One thing to note, General Patton was a modern sport fencer. I'm sure this influenced his choice on what he thinks was effective on modern military swords/
it's funny there should be an argument over naming that sword, because in French there's a word for a one-edged sword/straight saber, a "latte" (no relation to the drink).
I know this is a fictional weapon/tool but what would a lightsaber be classified as? It can easily cut and thrust, but it is not curved as a saber would be. So, is it a "saber" as the name suggest? I don't believe that there is any answer that can satisfy query, but has a class all its own. If that is true what name would be given to this class? Discuss.
How would a "lightsaber" from Star Wars be classified? I've been annoyed with the use of "saber" in the name since they are straight and lack a basket hilt. However, since they're a plasma beam, they don't need the curve to add to the cut since so few materials in their universe can even resist them. The are used in media as equally adept with cuts and thrusts, so is it legitimate to call them sabers or is my annoyance justified?
Y'know I'd argue that the hilt in the case of the rapier differentiates it enough from the cavalry sword to the point where calling it a rapier is frankly dumb, so don't do that... Just idk call it something else, not a rapier like maybe a straight sabre and a normal sabre can have two different definitions or something
This is a bit of an irrelevant comment, but harking back to your video on giving point with a cavalry sword, do those points still apply to lances? I can envisage a lancer carrying a lance overarm and underarm and being able to arc his lance backwards after running an opponent through, but what about when a lance is tucked under the armpit? Basically, is there any benefit - in a battle situation - in using a lance/spear in the manner of a jousting tournament?
Early sabres were generally curved but they became less so overtime. By the American Civil War about half of sabres had curved blades generally only a slight curve, and the other half had straight blades. But they were both called sabres at the time
So, wouldn't this be more of a small sword rather than a rapier? A rapier tapers much more down to the tip and, by definition, rapiers are meant to have extremely long blades.
Maybe people think that all one handed swords after a certain era are all sabres regardless of form or function. By the way I think that is a really stupid way of classifying anything.
Does that dish hilt thruster have any kind of finger ring? I thought those were essential for Rapiers. At least now I know the actual type of sword that Zorro uses.
This is a thing that really annoys me. I love Renaissance fairs for the most part but when I go to a weapon vendor for a nice wall hanger and ask for a saber I am constantly asked curved or straight. I die a little bit inside when I hear someone insinuate that sabers are straight.
+scholagladiatoria But isn't the British Officer's SABRE vs the Calvary Sabre just about the SAME in straight thrusting size shape as that Cup hilted but you/they called the Officer's weapon a SABRE?
They "give point", which is let the horse do the "thrusting" force, then suddenly whip your hand backwards the instant you feel contact, which also uses the horse's power and momentum to rip the tip out from the victim's body sideways, doing even more damage. That's why the tips of French sabers were sharpened on the opposing side as well, so it would rip out easily.
MariusThePaladin They didn't have straight blades until 1892 - before that they had slightly curved sabre blades. The post-1892 straight thrusting blade is essentially a short rapier.
Forgive my ignorance, but I could have sworn you've made other videos where you talk about how sabres can sometimes be totally straight. In which case the difference is that a sabre is cut & thrust where the 1908s & similar are specialised solely for the thrust.
A sabre can be totally straight, but it still needs to be decent at cutting (like a backsword, for example, which is essentially an arming sword with one full length edge instead of two). The 1908 isn't completely useless at cutting, but it's pretty close.
Yes Sam, that's precisely what I'm referring to. He says in this video sabres are always curved. I could have sworn he'd said in another video that there are some varieties of straight sabre.
Parker8752 Eh, as far as I'm concerned for a weapon to be called a saber today there's exactly one requirement: that it was called a saber originally, or that it is a modern design inspired by a historical saber design. The Patton saber was called a saber by its contemporaries, so it's a saber by definition. I don't see much use in giving a different definition. I agree with the OP that it's best to note that not all sabers are made equal.
isodoublet I totally agree. While we usually mean curved swords by saying Sabre, they don’t have to be. If they were called Sabres historically it is correct to call them sabers now, even if it was formed like a trident. Although then we’d probably calm it a saber-trident but yeah. ;) By more modern usage of the term Sabre it can also mean a katana, and a katana isn’t used very much like a Sabre. But I could describe a katana as a sword with a Sabre like blade, and everyone would understand what I mean. Man, we really should invent a clear system for this.
Matt, excuse me, but I think that the West (or English?) European terminology of swords just doesn´t work. However, there is also Middle/Central European variant and this runs so: straight hilt + straight blade = sword; curved hilt + curved blade = sabre; straight hilt + curved blade messer or dussack, curved blade and +/- straight blade = pallos, palaš, pala. In the same terminology we do have "kord" which is in fact military sword of second half of 16th and first half of the 17th century, able to both slashing and stabbing on the battlefield, and "rapír (rapier) that is civilian´s weapon optimalized for stabbing in duel. I recommend you for some interesting reading the book of Eduard Wagner: Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons and also Lexicon of Hilted Weapons in four Languages from Jan Piet Puype and Piet De Gryse.
triumphant39 Aren't the shashka and Cossack sabre the same thing? But, yeah, you have a point that not all sabres had hand protection. Then it's probably the blade width.
Hey Matt, what would you call a 1796 Heavy Cavalry 'sabre'? If I had to guess I'd put it more into the category of a backsword, but I'm not soo sure about proper classifications.
Cavalry sabers that are curved are backswords with a protective handguard. Straight, French sabers are not backswords because it's sharpened on both sides.
What about the Shashka? They were standard issue military weapons throughout the Russian Empire (a power that was back then largely considered "Western") in the beginning twentieth century? Saber? No basket hilt, yet a curved cutting and thrusting blade. One could argue they are actually more of a knife, since it was knives they were developed from while sabers stem from swords. Any thoughts?
What have hilt type to do with is it sabre. Is curved or is not. Topology is one big mess. People were calling thing however they wanted at first then it become tradition. If You want call it sabre then it's sabre if not it can be machete, sword, knife. Can also be all of them.
In another video you compare a "cavalry saber" to an "infantry saber". The infantry saber look exactly like the sword you're describing here as more of a rapier. Can you clarify the differences?
RabidMortal1 The infantry sabre was also curved, but the curve was very subtle. Like the cavalry sabre, it's also primarily suited to cutting rather than thrusting.
Can you effectively half-sword with a rapier? Is there any realistic time when this would be a realistic technique? I strongly suspect that if you have a purely thrusting weapon you'd want to do everything in your power to NOT get close enough to your opponent to half-sword, but if all else fails, what are your options?
Why would you need to half sword a rapier..? It's already so long that you don't need to use such a drastic technique, also, your opponents aren't wearing suits of armor anymore, you can just stab him in the neck or face amigo.
This has frustrated me for ages especially when people mention the American 1913 “sabre’ I swear every time I hear it a little vain on my forehead nearly explodes
Do you know the modern italian army swors? They call it "sciabola" wich means sabre but actually has a straight blade. Is it proper to call it a sabre?
What length and weight do you recommend for saber dueling on foot? It seems like most were designed for mounted combat and were a little on the heavy side.
Well, I think sabers for fighting on foot tended to be shorter with their POB closer to the hilt than their cavalry counterparts. Let's wait for someone who actually knows what they're talking about to answer though. :P
Is it really a good idea to have a thrust-dedicated sword for cavalry? I don't see how that would be much use from horseback, at least if the horse had any forward momentum. They might be useful for dismounted cavalry, or if the horse were surrounded and unable to move, but whereas a sabre might be used when running down a foot soldier, a thrusting sword seems more likely to be broken, yanked out of the hand, or to break the rider's wrist, as he would not be able to pull it out of his target.
it must be for dismounted as you mentioned. It would be pretty useless otherwise unless you want to just knock some people over the head. Some people argue that's what US Civil War NCO swords were used for since they were made and kept blunt.
From what I gather from Mat's other videos thrust only cavalry swords are only used on horseback as a one handed lance with extensive training to enable point extraction. It should be noted that the sword was only useful in the charge and in a melee it would be a liability as slashing is both more instinctive and effective in such close rang encounters. By the time they were issued though cavalry melees were mostly a thing of the past. They were also never used on foot. Look up his video's on the 1908 patter cavalry sword.
Has to do with the impact and there were techniques dealing with recover. Wasn't easy, but it could be done. I guess a decision was that the cav gave up the flexibility you would have with slashing weapon, and went all in to get a killing blow (or thrust in this case) on it's adversaries.
The Rapier is my favourite Saber.
nice, i prefer the francisca, its my favorite saber of all time
Sir Galahad
I can see where you're coming from, but the curved end on the francisca always put me off, i prefer my Sabers with a straight blade.
Knechtor
yes,but i think that no good saber should be without a nice and long wooden shaft...
KATANA IS ULTIMATE SABER OF ALL TIMES FOLED 69000 TIMES CUTS CANNON BARRELS IN HALF
You're all wrong. The quarterstaff is the best saber of all time. End of discussion.
An important thing to remember about sword terminology is that for most of history (with some very brief and minor exceptions), whatever sort of sword anyone was using was most often just called a "sword." You wouldn't have worried about an exact name unless someone said, "What kind of sword?" Even then, there might not have been a specific, accepted name for it because many of the names we apply to them have been invented in the last hundred years or so. A bolognese "side sword," for instance, was just a "spada" (Italian for "sword") to a Bolognese man. It's most likely that if someone said "What kind of sword," the person relating the story would say "You know, one of those fancy new swords with little ring for your index finger" All of our terminology is essentially an effort to avoid repeatedly having to answer that annoying question, "What kind of sword do you mean?"
As much as I hate to say it, though, given the amount of such clarification as this video that I find all over the internet, I don't think it's really accomplished that goal.
when is a sabre not a sabre?
when you pull it's teeth out, then it's just a regular tiger ;)
When is a sabre not a sabre? In America, where is it a saber.
the cavalry sword is essentially a big nail.
Patton's sword is officially called a "saber" and he is going by the secondary, more French, interpretation of "saber", which is a light fencing or dueling sword having an arched guard that covers the back of the hand and a tapering flexible blade with a full cutting edge along one side and a partial cutting edge on the back at the tip. Definition 2a from Merriam -Webster. Not Defintion 1 which is a cavalry sword with a curved blade, thick back, and guard.
I'm from Sweden, and I recall reading somewhere that at one point all our cavalry swords were referred to as "sabers" regardless if they were used for cutting or thrusting. Additionally, I recall one source claiming that the definition of a saber to some degree had to do with the design of the hilt - specifically, swords with curved tangs/grips were usually considered a type of saber.
I suspect a lot of this comes down to local conventions and definitions that shifted over time. (Cavalrymen, for example, might have kept referring to their thrusting swords as sabers out of tradition.) Ultimately, the meaning of the word is determined by the context in which it is used, because a living language is an evolving language.
The Swiss Army Knife has a wonderful saber on it.
Interestingly, model 1913 swords seem to have been called "sabers" officially, as in the 1914 "saber" exercise. I guess they thought the word "saber" was more fashionable than a mere "sword" back then. :P
The Katana is my favorite Saber.
It can cut through a tank
Is this really so hard to understand...?
Aparently
I think it comes from the notion that cavalry use sabres and infantry uses swords. It's more apparent in US designations.
Is the katana a sabre or a longsword?
PS: I looked the posts and find that it is a sabre :0
kiba BG The word 'sabre' is French (from Italian sciabola and Polish szabla). The French call the katana a 'sabre Japonais'.
Maybe you can even call the katana a big knife as the hilt is usually riveted on. It's a bit like how a banana is a berry.
gurkfisk89
Pegged on, not riveted. Rivets are permanent, but you can disassemble a katana's hilt to change out some of those fittings as you like.
Depending on the context it can be referred to as both I guess. As a part of 'Daisho' it is a longsword. From western point of view on how to categorize swords it is a sabre.
It's a Katana. You can't always compare apples to oranges.
Holy shit. I once went to a production of "Midsummer Night's Dream" that had everyone (everyone human, anyway) in Edwardian-period outfits. The soldiers carried these swords with sabre guards and rapier blades. I thought they were odd.
Little did I realize that those were 1908 pattern cavalry trooper's swords. The attention to detail that the prop crew must have had is simply amazing.
Noah Weisbrod More likely those were what is known by the SAFD (Society of American Fight Directors) as Hollywood Single Swords. They are essentially just sport-fencing saber hilts fitted with stage combat epee blades. They're massively cheap to make and take a ton of abuse so they are a go-to for a lot of stage armorers. They often stand in for military swords, pirate cutlasses as those are not widely mass produced for stage combat (unlike rapiers, arming swords, longswords, and smallswords) and are visually similar to a layman. These were VERY popular in old swashbuckling films (Zorro, for instance).
www.roguesteel.com/single-swords.html
Robert Parise no. These blades were much longer and thicker than any sport epee.
And in the Zorro movies Zorro wielded a World War I model cavalry sword.
But isn't it officially known as a Model 1913 Cavalry _SABER_?
You see this too in translating Asian blades. Dao being the term for any curved blade (seemingly regardless of size of handhold length to include polearem weapons) vs. gim (straight blade). Too many people refer to the leaf-bladed dao as a "Chinese Broadsword."
As far as I know "Dao" simply means "knife" and refers to any single-etched blade, curved or straight.
Knife is a bad translation, like many attempts to translate any sino-tibetan dialect to, well anything else. Dao are curved blades. With the exception of Tang dynasty blades (and a recurrence in the late Ming dynasty) which while largely straight, held a very slight curve at the point of percussion (ie the end of the blade). It was an effort to try and emphasize thrusting while maintaining some slashing capability. This gets a little complicated when dealing with foreign words/objects, as is often the case in these languages. For example the dagger used by the Jingpo people is sometimes referred to as a dao, even though it to can come in both straight and curved bladed varieties.
Not just Asian blades, either. There's a German weapon commonly called a messer, which is somewhat similar to the dao, but the name literally means knife. There are examples in other languages as well.
c johnson Well, strictly speaking, the word "dao"(刀) just means a single-edged sword or "knife", whereas the word "jian"(劍) refers to a double-edged sword. So, a dao can be a knife, but some characters may be added to indicate its use. For example, a kitchen knife is called a "菜刀," "菜" meaning dishes. Interestingly, there's no particular Chinese character "exactly" corresponding to the word sword, a bladed weapon (long-enough) however its curvature is and whether it has two or one edges, while sometimes dao and jian are used interchangeably, in a loose sense.
Let me see you try to cook something with a guandao then. lol
What about straight blade military sabers from the 1700s?
They're not sabers, sabers always have a curved blade. In Britain you would call them broadswords or backswords, should they have a double-edged or single-edged blade respectively.
according to GURPS, when it's a broadsword.
I'm sorry I called it a sabre! Thanks for the overview. Other than the 1913, are there any "American" swords, preferably sabre, of note?
The two big ones with Civil War collectors are the 1840 Heavy Cavalry and the 1860 Light Cavalry sabres.
FairbairnSykes You forgot the M1859 Marine NCO Sword (in actuality a sabre) the only change is the change in width in 1918 (making it more ceremonial than anything else)
Then how come in tournaments, all the fucking "sabers" are straight bladed swords with saber hilts???
everyone knows a sabre is a curved blade.
but a saber could be anything, even a beam of light coming from a crystal.
Could You call it a spadroon? Or pallasch/pałasz? That's what it reminds me more...
Matt, Obi Wan-Kenobi just called in. He says that even though the Jedi Light Sabers have completely straight blades and almost no hand protection, not even the Sith were evil enough to imply that they had been misnamed for generations and should really be called Light Swords. You are to surrender yours IMMEDIATELY to the Jedi Council as your honourary Jedi rank has just been revoked...
Of course you are correct Matt. But the official US Army designation for the M1913 is Saber.
Both the 1908 and the Patton sword were essentially nothing more than the old Polish koncerz, which itself was just a glorified BBQ spit. My opinion, anyhow.
I'm guilty. I did know that the curve denoted a saber while a straight blade was a sword, but the term "1908 pattern saber" was so prevalent that I just went along. However, since you said please, I'm going to break that habit. 1908 pattern sword.
I do sort of like the looks of the early 20th century sabers, they sort of look like something from the old swashbuckler films, guess maybe because prop deparment had to find something
Good point! Er, I mean, you cut to the point here. Just kidding :- ). But seriously, excellent video. As an Asian martial artist, I find all your videos very helpful in articulating Western martial arts, which in turn enriches my own practice.
I see what you're saying and I agree, these pattern swords are actually rapiers. But I can tell you from personal experience that no self respecting cavalryman will call his sword anything but a saber. That's why the name stuck with these swords. It becomes about semantics. Cases in point. The F-117 is designated as F for fighter aircraft. Technically the F-117 Stealth Fighter is not a fighter, but a light bomber, but not self respecting fighter jockey who piloted this cutting edge (at the time) aircrafts would want to be called a bomber so the Air Force went with the "fighter" designations for sex appeal sake. Another case case in point is tank destroyer and anti tank gun. What's the difference? None, just a designation. But tank destroyer sounds sexier. So sholagladiatoira is correct to say this is not a saber, but an organization with traditions and terminologies that it is accustomed to ain't changing any time soon.
So what about a lightsabre? Straight blade, but definitely more of a cutter than a thruster ;)
On a more serious note though, Matt, this was another excellent video but I feel you are let down by the sound quality. The kind of mic you are using picks up all the reverberation from the room and gives the sound an amateur feel that doesn't match the professional levels of the actual content. I think you should invest in a lapel mic which would pick up your voice and reject the reflections from the walls.
I think it's something most people don't pick up on consciously. but good quality sound makes all the difference unconsciously, giving you that nice fuzzy warm "I'm in the hands of a pro" feeling.
Forgive my ignorance on the subject, but why would cavalry need a specialized thrusting sword? I feel like the sabre would be superior to any sort of strictly thrusting sword on horseback, no? I mean, if you thrust a sword into someone on horseback, there is a high probability you'll both go flying, no?
Listening to matt easton totally wasted is kind of interesting. I totally love your videos Matt. I just like laughing at your bald head...... =D. no really great videos, keep it up.
So, who defines what a "saber" is? Certainly many historical examples of the types of straight sword you describe were called sabers by their contemporaries and users, notably the Patton Saber itself. Wikipedia (granted, it's Wikipedia) states "Although sabres are typically thought of as curved-bladed slashing weapons, those used by the world's heavy cavalry often had straight and even double-edged blades more suitable for thrusting".
I don't mean to sound overly confrontational, but why should we use this classification instead of any other?
gogerychwyrndrobwll i think its more of a language related topic,because in other language than english,in my case french,sabers are a type of swords...and the heavy pallash used by heavies was often called in napoleonic time lance-sword(lance-épée) lol also in the 17th century the pallash hae also been refered to as demi-épée(half sword) because it was like a sword but with only one edge....so i guess the naming of those weapons are vague because they changed with time and some are particulary hilarious...the triangular section sword that was still popular in the 1700 was called latte(literally strip) and by common people pincette(pinch-slapper)
Ragimund VonWallat Nice examples. That's just the point, isn't it? Why is this name "more correct" than this other name? Who's the central authority determining sword names?
gogerychwyrndrobwll
well i let that to others to judge as my english is from the very bad variety lol
Uh yes it is. The Patton Sabre is a sabre. It is based of a French designed used by Napoleonic Heavy cavalry who carried straight sabres.
i dont know if i can reach you by posting on such an old video but i have a question about the M1861 Austrian Infantry Officers Sabre. (they are extremely common in austria although its hard to differentiate between later police versions and actual Austrohungarian military models)
Ive owned an antique for quite some time now and i dont know what purpose exactley it was meant to fulfill. It has a very narrow blade and is quite thick and stiff. It is however curved and apart from the blade width it looks like a cutting sword. Is it possible they tried to make a dedicated thrusting sword that has a slight curve? or is it a cut and thrust sword that just happens to have a narrow blade but still cuts well?
Sorry, but do you practice swordsmanship as a business or as a hobby? And can someone make money out of selling swords and doing things like blacksmithing? Thanks.
General Leonard Wood, Chief of Staff of US Army was presented with the result of Patton's studies. He tried cutting the back of his chair with both his own older pattern Saber, and the Patton Saber. He noted that though the Patton Saber was superior in the thrust, it also cut more deeply into the back of his chair, demonstrating its superiority in the cut.
It's like the news refering to mp's and assault rifles as machine guns or everything south of the USA as south america.
One thing to note, General Patton was a modern sport fencer.
I'm sure this influenced his choice on what he thinks was effective on modern military swords/
it's funny there should be an argument over naming that sword, because in French there's a word for a one-edged sword/straight saber, a "latte" (no relation to the drink).
I know this is a fictional weapon/tool but what would a lightsaber be classified as? It can easily cut and thrust, but it is not curved as a saber would be. So, is it a "saber" as the name suggest? I don't believe that there is any answer that can satisfy query, but has a class all its own. If that is true what name would be given to this class? Discuss.
....When it's a Saber? Sorry, I just had to be a wee cheeky there. 8-)
When it's spelled "saber". American English lol.
How would a "lightsaber" from Star Wars be classified? I've been annoyed with the use of "saber" in the name since they are straight and lack a basket hilt. However, since they're a plasma beam, they don't need the curve to add to the cut since so few materials in their universe can even resist them. The are used in media as equally adept with cuts and thrusts, so is it legitimate to call them sabers or is my annoyance justified?
So do you think it's a good cavalry sword? and/or Is it a good rapier? Would you pick it over earlier rapiers?
This is wht I complained about in the film Warhorse where supposed British cavalry were slashing with the issued sword as with a sabre.
Y'know I'd argue that the hilt in the case of the rapier differentiates it enough from the cavalry sword to the point where calling it a rapier is frankly dumb, so don't do that... Just idk call it something else, not a rapier like maybe a straight sabre and a normal sabre can have two different definitions or something
This is a bit of an irrelevant comment, but harking back to your video on giving point with a cavalry sword, do those points still apply to lances? I can envisage a lancer carrying a lance overarm and underarm and being able to arc his lance backwards after running an opponent through, but what about when a lance is tucked under the armpit? Basically, is there any benefit - in a battle situation - in using a lance/spear in the manner of a jousting tournament?
Besides the guard, it also shares a very similar handle with the saber. Unlike the rapier, there is no quillion for you to wrap your finger around.
Of course. It's a common mistake to call it a sabre when it's actually a saber.
Early sabres were generally curved but they became less so overtime. By the American Civil War about half of sabres had curved blades generally only a slight curve, and the other half had straight blades. But they were both called sabres at the time
So, wouldn't this be more of a small sword rather than a rapier? A rapier tapers much more down to the tip and, by definition, rapiers are meant to have extremely long blades.
Thing is, doesn't/didn't the British army refer to any of its cavalry formations in terms of the number of "sabres" it fielded ?
A bit late for questions, but... What kind of sword is the one you have behind you, at your right?
Maybe people think that all one handed swords after a certain era are all sabres regardless of form or function. By the way I think that is a really stupid way of classifying anything.
Does that dish hilt thruster have any kind of finger ring? I thought those were essential for Rapiers. At least now I know the actual type of sword that Zorro uses.
What would you call that other sword if not a sabre? A rapier? Just "sword"?
All sabres are swords, not all swords are sabres.
Not all sabers are sabres and not all sabres are curved.
This always annoyed me about Star Wars.
When is a sabre not a sabre? Hmm, when it's a tuna fish? Wait, that's the wrong thing, never mind. :P
This is a thing that really annoys me. I love Renaissance fairs for the most part but when I go to a weapon vendor for a nice wall hanger and ask for a saber I am constantly asked curved or straight. I die a little bit inside when I hear someone insinuate that sabers are straight.
When it's ajar! No, wait.
I came here just to see if anyone made this joke
So.. Is a katana a type of saber? It is a curved cut and thrust sword after all. ;)
How does a charging horseman use a thrusting sword without breaking his wrist when piercing flesh, much less withdraw his sword to continue forward?
J.L. Roberts I have made a couple of videos on this :-)
+scholagladiatoria But isn't the British Officer's SABRE vs the Calvary Sabre just about the SAME in straight thrusting size shape as that Cup hilted but you/they called the Officer's weapon a SABRE?
They "give point", which is let the horse do the "thrusting" force, then suddenly whip your hand backwards the instant you feel contact, which also uses the horse's power and momentum to rip the tip out from the victim's body sideways, doing even more damage. That's why the tips of French sabers were sharpened on the opposing side as well, so it would rip out easily.
My personal peeve with poor naming is the lightsaber from Star Wars.
could you do some cut tests for us? the 1908 looks to me like it would take your arm off as sure as an arming sword would.
I guess Patton would disagree, but I see where you are going with this.
So the French 1882 infantry sabre is not a sabre?😶
Are Tulwars, Kilij and Shamshirs sabers?
Hi Matt, I have a question. What category would you put 19th century British infantry officer's straight sword in to ? Rapier or just arming sword ?
MariusThePaladin They didn't have straight blades until 1892 - before that they had slightly curved sabre blades. The post-1892 straight thrusting blade is essentially a short rapier.
Forgive my ignorance, but I could have sworn you've made other videos where you talk about how sabres can sometimes be totally straight. In which case the difference is that a sabre is cut & thrust where the 1908s & similar are specialised solely for the thrust.
A sabre can be totally straight, but it still needs to be decent at cutting (like a backsword, for example, which is essentially an arming sword with one full length edge instead of two). The 1908 isn't completely useless at cutting, but it's pretty close.
Yes Sam, that's precisely what I'm referring to. He says in this video sabres are always curved. I could have sworn he'd said in another video that there are some varieties of straight sabre.
Parker8752 Eh, as far as I'm concerned for a weapon to be called a saber today there's exactly one requirement: that it was called a saber originally, or that it is a modern design inspired by a historical saber design.
The Patton saber was called a saber by its contemporaries, so it's a saber by definition. I don't see much use in giving a different definition. I agree with the OP that it's best to note that not all sabers are made equal.
isodoublet
I totally agree. While we usually mean curved swords by saying Sabre, they don’t have to be. If they were called Sabres historically it is correct to call them sabers now, even if it was formed like a trident. Although then we’d probably calm it a saber-trident but yeah. ;)
By more modern usage of the term Sabre it can also mean a katana, and a katana isn’t used very much like a Sabre. But I could describe a katana as a sword with a Sabre like blade, and everyone would understand what I mean.
Man, we really should invent a clear system for this.
How can a curved blade be a thrust sword? Sabres are cut swords that can thrust
Matt, excuse me, but I think that the West (or English?) European terminology of swords just doesn´t work. However, there is also Middle/Central European variant and this runs so: straight hilt + straight blade = sword; curved hilt + curved blade = sabre; straight hilt + curved blade messer or dussack, curved blade and +/- straight blade = pallos, palaš, pala. In the same terminology we do have "kord" which is in fact military sword of second half of 16th and first half of the 17th century, able to both slashing and stabbing on the battlefield, and "rapír (rapier) that is civilian´s weapon optimalized for stabbing in duel. I recommend you for some interesting reading the book of Eduard Wagner: Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons and also Lexicon of Hilted Weapons in four Languages from Jan Piet Puype and Piet De Gryse.
Correction: curved hilt and +/- straight blade = pallos, palaš, pala.The weapon in your left hand is thus a palos with extremely thin blade.
What about a LIGHT SABER? Is that a saber?
I call them a side lance, because it is essentially a lance that you can carry on your side. .
Matt. Would a re-curved sword like a yataghan, kopis, or falcata considered a saber? They're curved and single-edged. Thoughts?
standingunder I wouldn't consider them as sabres personally.
scholagladiatoria Yeah, me neither. The question popped into my head reading through the comments.
+standingunder I think the lack of hand-protection is what disqualifies them from being sabres.
triumphant39 Aren't the shashka and Cossack sabre the same thing? But, yeah, you have a point that not all sabres had hand protection. Then it's probably the blade width.
triumphant39 Whoops, my bad. Misread that.
How about saif and palasch do they then count as swords?
Hey Matt, what would you call a 1796 Heavy Cavalry 'sabre'? If I had to guess I'd put it more into the category of a backsword, but I'm not soo sure about proper classifications.
Cavalry sabers that are curved are backswords with a protective handguard. Straight, French sabers are not backswords because it's sharpened on both sides.
What about the Shashka? They were standard issue military weapons throughout the Russian Empire (a power that was back then largely considered "Western") in the beginning twentieth century? Saber? No basket hilt, yet a curved cutting and thrusting blade. One could argue they are actually more of a knife, since it was knives they were developed from while sabers stem from swords. Any thoughts?
What have hilt type to do with is it sabre. Is curved or is not.
Topology is one big mess. People were calling thing however they wanted at first then it become tradition. If You want call it sabre then it's sabre if not it can be machete, sword, knife. Can also be all of them.
In another video you compare a "cavalry saber" to an "infantry saber". The infantry saber look exactly like the sword you're describing here as more of a rapier. Can you clarify the differences?
RabidMortal1 The infantry sabre was also curved, but the curve was very subtle. Like the cavalry sabre, it's also primarily suited to cutting rather than thrusting.
But what if it has a straight blade made for cutting?
To me I thought it was a Saber if it had a Saber guard lol.
Can you effectively half-sword with a rapier? Is there any realistic time when this would be a realistic technique?
I strongly suspect that if you have a purely thrusting weapon you'd want to do everything in your power to NOT get close enough to your opponent to half-sword, but if all else fails, what are your options?
Why would you need to half sword a rapier..? It's already so long that you don't need to use such a drastic technique, also, your opponents aren't wearing suits of armor anymore, you can just stab him in the neck or face amigo.
I thought I was the only one who got pissed off about this.
Dare I bring up the Light "Saber"?
This has frustrated me for ages especially when people mention the American 1913 “sabre’ I swear every time I hear it a little vain on my forehead nearly explodes
Your forehead probably has veins. Have you ever been guilty of saying "palm tree"?
Who in their right mind would call a sword a "saber" just because it has a dished knuckle protecting guard?
What is the difference between a saber and a cutless?
Do you know the modern italian army swors? They call it "sciabola" wich means sabre but actually has a straight blade. Is it proper to call it a sabre?
no, its really more of a spadroon
So saber vs basket-hilted back sword. One is straight, the other curved, but would they not be used in a similar way?
In the 19th century they were used the same way, yes.
What about the British 1895 pattern "Sabre"?
Craze John There is no British 1895 pattern sabre. There is an 1895 pattern infantry officer's sword, with a straight thrusting blade.
So, basically a dish-hilt rapier?
And I would say most 19th century sabres are actually backswords with the curve to slight to count as a sabre.
MrMonkeybat They are certainly very similar to backswords, in terms of the blades.
When is a sabre not a sabre? When it's a saber.
straight thrust and cut as that would that be an Epee
What length and weight do you recommend for saber dueling on foot? It seems like most were designed for mounted combat and were a little on the heavy side.
Well, I think sabers for fighting on foot tended to be shorter with their POB closer to the hilt than their cavalry counterparts. Let's wait for someone who actually knows what they're talking about to answer though. :P
"When is a sabre not a sabre?" When it's a saber.
Is it really a good idea to have a thrust-dedicated sword for cavalry? I don't see how that would be much use from horseback, at least if the horse had any forward momentum. They might be useful for dismounted cavalry, or if the horse were surrounded and unable to move, but whereas a sabre might be used when running down a foot soldier, a thrusting sword seems more likely to be broken, yanked out of the hand, or to break the rider's wrist, as he would not be able to pull it out of his target.
it must be for dismounted as you mentioned. It would be pretty useless otherwise unless you want to just knock some people over the head. Some people argue that's what US Civil War NCO swords were used for since they were made and kept blunt.
@Michael Hoover -- How about including a link to that video, then?
From what I gather from Mat's other videos thrust only cavalry swords are only used on horseback as a one handed lance with extensive training to enable point extraction. It should be noted that the sword was only useful in the charge and in a melee it would be a liability as slashing is both more instinctive and effective in such close rang encounters. By the time they were issued though cavalry melees were mostly a thing of the past. They were also never used on foot. Look up his video's on the 1908 patter cavalry sword.
Has to do with the impact and there were techniques dealing with recover. Wasn't easy, but it could be done. I guess a decision was that the cav gave up the flexibility you would have with slashing weapon, and went all in to get a killing blow (or thrust in this case) on it's adversaries.
I thought that a sabre referred to any sword that was used from horseback. What defines a sabre?
Daniel Armfield Jr. A curved blade oriented to the cut.
Ah, but what about lightsabres?
My favourite Firearm is the Japanese Longrapier Gladius saber.