My Dad and I are enjoying your videos LRR. We like that you are a family man and working man making it happen in your home shop using the tools and methods that work. Keep it up!
In joying the videos didn’t no what to do with the LF on my limited mod after destroy it at pike a couple weeks ago matter of fact I was parked directly in front of you #54 didn’t know you had a RUclips channel . Great information for a People just getting started like myself. Thanks again
Awesome bud!! I’m glad it helped for sure. And I remember your car come say hey the next time you see us at a track. We’re planning on making a trip back to pike soon!
Well I definitely like the caster/camber numbers you are using. Of course, my only issue as someone who has done front ends on daily drivers with a computerized alignment machine. As well as with an actual bubble hand held gauge for many many years. To actually get to the actual caster/camber numbers. An individual still at a minimum have to go 20 degrees in board and 20 degrees out borad to get an accurate caster and camber number. Since to get an accurate reading with the hand held bubble gauge we would have to level the caster measurement, bubble indicator on its own. And level the entire gauge for the camber measurement. The reason why should be simple, because you need to take the steering through the entire steering travel dynamics. In order to get an accurate measurement. It is no different than jacking the car up to a give point to determine rear bar angles in racing dynamics. In fact if a person took the extra time, to jack the car up to simulate racing dynamics. Then do the 20 degrees in and out. You would come a lot closer to the actual caster/camber numbers you are running. Even if you just do it the standard way of 20 degrees in and out. You should come a lot closer to the actual caster/camber numbers. (Needless to say cars I put my hands on won a lot and this is still the case today. Of course, results definitely varied, depending on the driver and team I am working with at the time.) Since some drivers and teams like different setup numbers for the front end. Regardless of that, the cars I worked on would run like they were on a rail on the track. With plenty of forward driver allowing excellent entry and transition throughout the corner and off the exit. (Which when I mean win a lot, I am talking about double digit feature wins, including big event wins, USMTS feature wins, multiple years in a row.)
Those static Numbers are not great. You guys really need to understand your dynamic caster camber curves. Caster gain and loss is extremely important. Just as important as camber gain. This video is very basic and not explained from someone extremely knowledgeable on the subject, geometry, etc. He’s to focused on high caster numbers more than the split and doesn’t fill understand the effects of camber on wedge and wheel loads. Yes we do get a “positive” feel but there a reason behind this. He’s right there’s no magic number and the best way is to watch your drivers hands. We always ran 8+ of camber and decent caster long before it became fashionable in both dirt and cup. Early 2k’s We’ve always had custom ball joints and pins mfg’ed. Stuff it took decades for the modifieds in this country to figure out. Our mods always steer as good if not better then our DLM stuff. If You guys tell people toor demonstrate running up to 9° and they’re car gets 4° gain there’s a big issue. Especially if they see loss on the LF then they have massive gains in split. Most of us don’t run the extremely high static numbers we set up dynamic. This is Changing slightly as we all shift off the RF back more to the RR these days. Your caster and split should also be something your tunning at the track. The flat spot on the spindle is not an accurate or correct way at all to measure from. You have to measure off the pin axes of the ball joints if your using an angle finder. There’s a million other factors to determine these numbers like anti dive, roll center, dynamic roll center and desired body roll, dynamic caster camber curves, etc. then you gotta be aware of your motion arm ratios, and Angle correction factor, Ackerman etc especially when messing with different lowers, extended lowers, and spindle types. Pin inclination isn’t all that’s important on spindle selection. The substance from the bearing face to the pivot axis is far more important. This something people forget to calculate when they add wheel spacers or change rim offsets. They think they are only changing track width. They are changing something else massively. When the guys with square mounted uppers start heading towards high caster numbers on the RF they inadvertently created further caster loss. This is true even with a correctly mounted upper as it will still effect caster gain as you tip the upper. It’s clear I need to make some good detailed videos covering this stuff and even get into dynamics, balljoints, control arm mounting and design principles, mathematical formulas, etc to better help the community understand what they are doing and why. Throwing tall balljoints and big numbers at the car isn’t how you do it. Neither is just running the basic baseline numbers cut and pasted since the 90’s. If you guys change your pan hard bar, rod angles or even droop you should also be adjusting some of this stuff. Yes we still use turn plates to fine tune caster however the old 20° in and out is fairly irrelevant as we focus on dynamic swings requiring only a delta between the top. The turn plates where used before we had different tools to measure the ball joint pin inclination within rational margins. Measuring off the spot of the spindle in this video however is a bigger issue. I’ve always found those who brag about knowledge to be less knowledgeable. Especially when dropping win counts. We e seen wins in our circle in triple digits. Seen winless seasons in UMP and other series. Flexing is erroneous. Also yes the caster numbers do give the driver more feel however what we are actually trying to achieve is giving the driver more control by allowing him to wedge and un- wedge the car as needed where he needs it. This is also why dynamic settings are so important. You won’t be able to do much with this running factory mounted uppers. If your car has little to no change you’ll be at a handicap to some of those who know what they are doing. You have to remember factory chassis are designed to accommodate all drivers across all tracks and dozens of different types of modifieds. B-mod, a mod etc. This is an issue.
@@ChrisS-oo6fl Well this comes across as something that Bob Harris and Chad Wehrs have spoken about on their live streams. Yet I would certainly be interested in what you have to say on the subject, although if you were attending to say this to Mr. Roberts you posted your comment in the wrong place. Yet if you have something to share by all means I am sure people would be willing to listen to what you have to present to the racing community.
So I'm hearing you talk about feeling the front end. I like a light steering wheel one that doesn't feel heavy. Would you have any recommendations to get a lighter feel?
Hey Anthony! Taking a few degrees of caster out of the RF will lighten up the steering wheel but I personally wouldn’t go any less then 6* of positive caster. The absolutely best thing to do to get a lighter feel is spend the money for a Sweet 6:1 steering box if your rules allow it. If you replace a stock box and quickener with a Sweet box you won’t believe the difference. You’ll get the light feel even with 9 degrees of caster.
Question about the shocks as I watch this again Do you think there is any advantages or disadvantages of mounting your shock inboard or outboard of the A arm? If it's behind it will have a pushing angle to the front of the car would that help traction or hurt traction? If it's in front it would push back obviously.
As far as location. The shock has no idea where it’s at. Moving the shock outboard on the RF just gives you all the clearance you need to run any caster/camber numbers you want without the upper hitting and damaging the shock. As far as the push pull and traction. A shock is a timing device the only thing that pushes is the springs. As long as you have the proper stroke the shock needs the performance of the shock will not change from location to location.
My Dad and I are enjoying your videos LRR. We like that you are a family man and working man making it happen in your home shop using the tools and methods that work. Keep it up!
Thanks bud it means a lot!
This is such a great video. Tons of information. I really appreciate videos like this!
Enjoyed the video, just now getting started in racing and i have a 2012 shaw as well. Definitely some good info to have in this video!!
Yes sir I’m glad you like it! Subscribe and share if you don’t mind
I’d love to see how you set up bump on these center link cars.
🤗 Once the Race Starts / It will become the joy of Existence 💫
In joying the videos didn’t no what to do with the LF on my limited mod after destroy it at pike a couple weeks ago matter of fact I was parked directly in front of you #54 didn’t know you had a RUclips channel . Great information for a People just getting started like myself. Thanks again
Awesome bud!! I’m glad it helped for sure. And I remember your car come say hey the next time you see us at a track. We’re planning on making a trip back to pike soon!
Nice!
Well I definitely like the caster/camber numbers you are using. Of course, my only issue as someone who has done front ends on daily drivers with a computerized alignment machine. As well as with an actual bubble hand held gauge for many many years. To actually get to the actual caster/camber numbers. An individual still at a minimum have to go 20 degrees in board and 20 degrees out borad to get an accurate caster and camber number.
Since to get an accurate reading with the hand held bubble gauge we would have to level the caster measurement, bubble indicator on its own. And level the entire gauge for the camber measurement.
The reason why should be simple, because you need to take the steering through the entire steering travel dynamics. In order to get an accurate measurement. It is no different than jacking the car up to a give point to determine rear bar angles in racing dynamics.
In fact if a person took the extra time, to jack the car up to simulate racing dynamics. Then do the 20 degrees in and out. You would come a lot closer to the actual caster/camber numbers you are running.
Even if you just do it the standard way of 20 degrees in and out. You should come a lot closer to the actual caster/camber numbers. (Needless to say cars I put my hands on won a lot and this is still the case today. Of course, results definitely varied, depending on the driver and team I am working with at the time.) Since some drivers and teams like different setup numbers for the front end.
Regardless of that, the cars I worked on would run like they were on a rail on the track. With plenty of forward driver allowing excellent entry and transition throughout the corner and off the exit.
(Which when I mean win a lot, I am talking about double digit feature wins, including big event wins, USMTS feature wins, multiple years in a row.)
Those static Numbers are not great. You guys really need to understand your dynamic caster camber curves. Caster gain and loss is extremely important. Just as important as camber gain. This video is very basic and not explained from someone extremely knowledgeable on the subject, geometry, etc. He’s to focused on high caster numbers more than the split and doesn’t fill understand the effects of camber on wedge and wheel loads. Yes we do get a “positive” feel but there a reason behind this. He’s right there’s no magic number and the best way is to watch your drivers hands. We always ran 8+ of camber and decent caster long before it became fashionable in both dirt and cup. Early 2k’s We’ve always had custom ball joints and pins mfg’ed. Stuff it took decades for the modifieds in this country to figure out. Our mods always steer as good if not better then our DLM stuff. If You guys tell people toor demonstrate running up to 9° and they’re car gets 4° gain there’s a big issue. Especially if they see loss on the LF then they have massive gains in split. Most of us don’t run the extremely high static numbers we set up dynamic. This is Changing slightly as we all shift off the RF back more to the RR these days. Your caster and split should also be something your tunning at the track. The flat spot on the spindle is not an accurate or correct way at all to measure from. You have to measure off the pin axes of the ball joints if your using an angle finder. There’s a million other factors to determine these numbers like anti dive, roll center, dynamic roll center and desired body roll, dynamic caster camber curves, etc. then you gotta be aware of your motion arm ratios, and Angle correction factor, Ackerman etc especially when messing with different lowers, extended lowers, and spindle types. Pin inclination isn’t all that’s important on spindle selection. The substance from the bearing face to the pivot axis is far more important. This something people forget to calculate when they add wheel spacers or change rim offsets. They think they are only changing track width. They are changing something else massively. When the guys with square mounted uppers start heading towards high caster numbers on the RF they inadvertently created further caster loss. This is true even with a correctly mounted upper as it will still effect caster gain as you tip the upper.
It’s clear I need to make some good detailed videos covering this stuff and even get into dynamics, balljoints, control arm mounting and design principles, mathematical formulas, etc to better help the community understand what they are doing and why. Throwing tall balljoints and big numbers at the car isn’t how you do it. Neither is just running the basic baseline numbers cut and pasted since the 90’s. If you guys change your pan hard bar, rod angles or even droop you should also be adjusting some of this stuff.
Yes we still use turn plates to fine tune caster however the old 20° in and out is fairly irrelevant as we focus on dynamic swings requiring only a delta between the top. The turn plates where used before we had different tools to measure the ball joint pin inclination within rational margins. Measuring off the spot of the spindle in this video however is a bigger issue. I’ve always found those who brag about knowledge to be less knowledgeable. Especially when dropping win counts. We e seen wins in our circle in triple digits. Seen winless seasons in UMP and other series. Flexing is erroneous.
Also yes the caster numbers do give the driver more feel however what we are actually trying to achieve is giving the driver more control by allowing him to wedge and un- wedge the car as needed where he needs it. This is also why dynamic settings are so important. You won’t be able to do much with this running factory mounted uppers. If your car has little to no change you’ll be at a handicap to some of those who know what they are doing. You have to remember factory chassis are designed to accommodate all drivers across all tracks and dozens of different types of modifieds. B-mod, a mod etc. This is an issue.
@@ChrisS-oo6fl Well this comes across as something that Bob Harris and Chad Wehrs have spoken about on their live streams. Yet I would certainly be interested in what you have to say on the subject, although if you were attending to say this to Mr. Roberts you posted your comment in the wrong place. Yet if you have something to share by all means I am sure people would be willing to listen to what you have to present to the racing community.
@@TheCrewChief374do you still work with shryock?
Happy birthday
Thanks bud!
I have a limited modified, I’m almost done with it, and it has a lot of work done to the front end of the chassis.
Awesome! Hopefully this helps some
Thing will be in victory lane on the first race!!
So I'm hearing you talk about feeling the front end. I like a light steering wheel one that doesn't feel heavy. Would you have any recommendations to get a lighter feel?
Hey Anthony! Taking a few degrees of caster out of the RF will lighten up the steering wheel but I personally wouldn’t go any less then 6* of positive caster. The absolutely best thing to do to get a lighter feel is spend the money for a Sweet 6:1 steering box if your rules allow it. If you replace a stock box and quickener with a Sweet box you won’t believe the difference. You’ll get the light feel even with 9 degrees of caster.
Question about the shocks as I watch this again
Do you think there is any advantages or disadvantages of mounting your shock inboard or outboard of the A arm? If it's behind it will have a pushing angle to the front of the car would that help traction or hurt traction? If it's in front it would push back obviously.
As far as location. The shock has no idea where it’s at. Moving the shock outboard on the RF just gives you all the clearance you need to run any caster/camber numbers you want without the upper hitting and damaging the shock. As far as the push pull and traction. A shock is a timing device the only thing that pushes is the springs. As long as you have the proper stroke the shock needs the performance of the shock will not change from location to location.
@@robertsracecarsbybbb60 thanks man I really appreciate the advice always trying to find .1
No problem bud! Just do me a favor and tell everyone to subscribe to the page lol
Hey man laid back video. Thank you for your knowledge. Do you feel those front end numbers are suitable for a stock car?
I think so! Maybe not as much on the RF. I’d start with 8* camber and 6.5-7* caster.
What’s your opinion on springs front and rear left and right on a 3 link b mod car with a crate motor in a 2012 Larry Shaw
🚖 Don't forget about " Bump Steer " Call a Chassis Builder
That’s a whole separate video lol
There is no way you can set caster that way. Sorry. You can but it won’t be correct
wanna sell that bal air in the back ground?
It’s a Oldsmobile but no I’m keeping this thing lol
What’s your opinion on springs front and rear left and right on a 3 link b mod car with a crate motor in a 2012 Larry Shaw
What’s your opinion on springs front and rear left and right on a 3 link b mod car with a 602 crate motor in a 2012 Larry Shaw
I would start with a 650 LF 600 RF 150 LR and 200 RR