Hi Nathan. Good info as always. I thought I might add a little to the dialog if I may. I noticed a comment on this video from someone that had seen Randy Oliver comment that the UGA study on oxalic and towels may have bee flawed due to mite drift. I've seen this comment in and after other You Tube videos and thought I should finally add in my two cents. Half of the colonies in this study were mine and I'm fairly sure that mite drift was not involved. The UGA crew seemed to do everything right but mite counts expanded steadily during the study. The bees in the study were in several yards that were miles apart and were relatively isolated with no other yards in the area. I lost most of them to very large mite numbers in the end. It seems logical that something like mite drift could be the problem and I think anyone (myself included) might make this assumption if they weren't there. I also had a good friend in Wisconsin that followed instructions to a T and experienced the same thing. I don't know why it didn't work for us, it just didn't work. I know of others that say it works. No disrespect here, just reporting.
Bob thanks for chipping in with that gem. I’ll pin this to the top. Have you heard anything promising from the South American product they were going to test?
@@DuckRiverHoney I met with Jennifer Berry and Lewis Bartlett at UGA on Tuesday and have an appointment next Monday with Dan Aurell at Auburn University, who was a big part of this. Should be editing a video with results within 10 days. Thanks.
Thank you for sharing your answer bob, i was trying to share information to Nathan i thought would be beneficial and you having participated responded with information i was not aware of which was a big benefit for me as well as i am trying to figure out my own mite treatment strategy. This is great. Thank you both bob and nathan. This is what it's all about.. learning.
Same thing here in France, obviously!! Yes, we can’t buy large qualities of Apibioxal, Same story and you explained it perfectly. Do different states have any different refs re Apibioxal or does USDA approval cover all America? Obviously we ALL use Apibioxal all the time, the generic Oxyalic Acid we buy in large quantities, is purely a “hive cleaner” ! There you have it!! 🤷🏼♂️🐝🐝🐝 good video we all share your frustration!!!!
Good video Nathan. I have to admit that I am one who has been using the OA illegally in shop towels since 2018, and also in the sponges last year. I have used the recipe Randy Oliver uses. The average mite count per 100 bees for all of my colonies last year was .4, with the end of November test yielding .1 mites after the MAQS application in October. The question was posed, who greased the USDA's hand to allow Mann-Lake to get the permit to sell OA at the price you referenced. Tariffs and shipping could never drive the cost that high. No one has proven that the Florida Lab OA is any different chemically than the M-L OA and I believe they both advertise the same degree of purity. As to following the letter of the law, I have heard numerous commercial beekeepers tell me that if they listened to the State Apiarist and followed his instructions to that degree, none of them would be in business anymore. Brushy Mountain had the sole right to sell OA before they went out of business, but they were not trying to rape beekeepers the way M-L does.
Thanks Dick, it was actually you that I was thinking of when I said that viewers should get local information on what works and doesn't work. You're a resource that a lot of beekeepers lean on. On another note, I believe the Fla Labs OA is actually a little more pure than Api-Bioxal.
@@R_Brickner don't worry. It's not your reseller that's shafting you. It's the producer... We have about the same price for ApiBioxal here in Europe (plus 20+% tax).
@@DuckRiverHoney I can get the 350g sachel for roughly 75€. I can get an unapproved Oxalic acid for about 12€ per kg which makes the ApiBioxal roughly 18 times more expensive.
Thank you for being so honest and informative. I do not have beehives but I do love honey and wish to ingest the purest honey, not that which is contaminated with pesticides. I hope the supplier’s are listening to your plight with regard to an easier way of applying to hives. Like you stated , we only get one set of lungs!! I usually by local raw honey but also love to try raw honey from different areas when we travel. Take care and hopefully your issue is resolved sooner rather than later.
Nathan, I really appreciate you doing these videos, very helpful for growing my apiary! The RUclips community amazes me how much you all share trying to improve our beekeeper community.
Nathan thanks for passing on the information. I sorry but I have respectfully disagree with the idea that beekeepers in the country should be buying the OA made in Europe. Also I disagree that we need to buy the more expensive stuff so companies will start making it. We have companies in this country making OA as you pointed out. Why did did USDA chose that specific company? If there is a reason that the OA we have here shouldn't be used, then that should have been communicated by the USDA. Just because they made it "The Law" doesn't help the beekeepers that are losing their hives. The question of the dosage being too low is another problem. The low dose is in danger of causing a bigger chance of the mites developing immunity. The USDA also was tasked with finding Varroa resistant (vsh) bees, which they dropped the ball on. Beekeepers have been left mostly on their own to try to find treatments or breed bees that hopefully won't require treatment. You can bring up what the law says all you want but if my bees are dying and there is no help out there, I'm going to do my best to find a solution. That's what the beekeepers in this country are doing. And you will too. Again no disrespect.
Hi Kenneth, the point of this video was mostly to educate new beekeepers on the legalities, as well as current research that indicates the legal dose may not work. Past that people can make an informed decision for themselves. I do wish we could have some entrants to the market to bring competition and innovative products.
@@DuckRiverHoney Can you speak on the latest announcement from Randy? From Scientific Beekeeping. News flash: EPA’s position on experimental use of EOA I have received numerous requests from "citizen-science" beekeepers across the country, wanting to run their own field trials of extended-release oxalic acid in their particular environments. For my research, I obtain a “Pesticide Research Authorization” from my own State Lead Agency each year, but other beekeepers have reported that their respective SLA refers them to EPA to obtain an “Experimental Use Permit” (EUP). Gina Burnett, Senior Regulatory Advisor for the EPA’s Biochemical Pesticides Branch, was gracious enough to go over the regulations with me (relevant verbiage highlighted): § 172.3 Scope of requirement. (a) An experimental use permit (EUP) is generally required for testing of any unregistered pesticide or any registered pesticide being tested for an unregistered use. However, as described in paragraph (b) of this section, certain of such tests are presumed not to involve unreasonable adverse effects and, therefore, do not require an EUP. (b) Except as provided in subpart C of this part or as specifically determined by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), it may be presumed that EUPs are not required when: (1) The experimental use of the pesticide is limited to: (i) Laboratory or greenhouse tests, (ii) Limited replicated field trials as described in paragraph (c) of this section to confirm such tests, or (iii) Other tests as described in paragraph (c) of this section whose purpose is only to assess the pesticide's potential efficacy, toxicity, or other properties. (2) The producer, applicator, or any other person conducting the test does not expect to receive any benefit in pest control from the pesticide's use. (c) For purposes of paragraphs (b)(1)(ii) and (b)(1)(iii) of this section, the following types of experimental tests are presumed not to need an EUP: (1) A small-scale test involving use of a particular pesticide that is conducted on a cumulative total of no more than 10 acres of land per pest, except that: (i) When testing for more than one target pest occurs at the same time and in the same locality, the 10 acre limitation shall encompass all of the target pests. (ii) Any food or feed crops involved in, or affected by, such tests (including, but not limited to, crops subsequently grown on such land which may reasonably be expected to contain residues of the tested pesticides) shall be destroyed or consumed only by experimental animals unless an appropriate tolerance or exemption from a tolerance has been established under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) for residues of the pesticide. Since the FDA has ruled that “Residues of oxalic acid in or on honey and honeycomb are exempted from the requirement of a tolerance when oxalic acid is used as a miticide in honeybee hives,” the EPA does not have any restrictions as to whether the honey can be harvested and consumed. Bottom line: Unless your State has more restrictive requirements, you would not need to obtain an EUP from EPA to run small-scale trials with oxalic acid. Be clear that this only applies to use for experimental testing! Note from Randy: Thank you all for your generous support this past year. I've received enough donations to pay for my assistant Brooke to come back and help run a slate of research projects this season. I'm continuing to work with EPA to get the extended-release application method of OA, approved, and have requested the paperwork to become a Registrant, so that we beekeepers can legally use this method. Wish me luck! My email inbox is crazy -- no need to reply to this update, thanks.
Hi Terri, I don’t think I need to speak to it, the release is pretty thorough. EPA guidance should be in effect unless a persons state has more restrictive laws.
Well, to be fair it’s all about consumer safety. People can get badly hurt using these products, so the regulators are there to minimize risk to applicators as well as food safety risk downstream. Bureaucracy of all types is inefficient, but I won’t say it’s unnecessary.
You know..German 'Bayer' makes all kinds of amitraz tretmants and other chemicals for bees "medicine". But not for Germany.. they can use only formic or oxalic. The bureaucracy of legal / healthy is a strange thing. I love the minimum % permited. That doesn't sound like some lobbyist BS at all
Nathan, Thank you for consolidating all the information and for not avoiding difficult topics. OA is “the elephant in the room”. I love your line “truth is truth whether you want to hear it or not”.
FYI: Treating in August with 4g/deep OAV 6x on 4-day interval was mostly effective. BUT…a few hives did not receive adequate control and required an additional 6x treatments. I’m at 17 colonies right now. 6x and 12x OAV was *a lot* of work. Planning to use ApiGuard in July/August this year. Then 1x OAV on Halloween. Then 4x OAV w/ 4-day interval in mid-December. Will also try Randy’s OA/gly sponges in May/June to prevent July surprises. Used 4x OAV in December 2021. Good results. Glad I did a series. Most colonies were not broodless, as evidenced by mite drop from all 4 treatments.
Holy holy! Good on you for acknowledging your resposibilty and possible influence in general. You can be confident that lots of viewers will give consideration to your concerns. Oxalic acid treatment has been around a long while. That being said , individuals like yourself will be responsible for causing the industry to develop the very best practice for using it. We're all in this together. Breathtaking backdrop! Cheers.
My advice would be to be 1. Isolated from other beekeepers by 5 miles, and 2. Start with 10 hives, preferably with proven TF queen lines. 3. Expect to lose 80% of them and build back from the survivors.
Great video Nathan! I am glad someone talked about this in detail. When I first bought OA I thought I was doing right by getting very specific with my online search (assuming there were possibly knock off products). I asked for USDA approved OA to treat bees and almost all of the results were for FL. Unfortunately, that's where I purchased my first small batch. I later did some more detailed research and found what you presented in your video. I think another problem with people buying only the approved OA is truth in advertising and marketing. I believe it is fair to say that many people, like me, think they are doing right only to find out later that they are not. The other part of your video is also right on the money as a shared frustration with the amount of OA at 1 gram per deep. It appears there are no limitations (yet) on the number of consecutive treatments but in order to stay within the recommended doses, you would have to treat at least 5-6 times in a 20-24-day period to gain any ground on the mites. That is a lot of work and time, especially if you have to treat a large apiary. Thanks for sharing with everyone!
Nathan, This is a very important information for all of us to understand. We like OA in early spring and fall works the best for us. Summer treatment is always tricky. Thanks for the video!!!!!
Good video with great perspective and fact based dialogue. Been following Jennifer for a while now and it's also been good to see her work with Bob. Also read Randy Oliver's research in ABJ. A lot going on with this treatment. I'm at a disadvantage regardless due to having brood most all of the year. Glad you pinned Bob's comment.
Nathan - In a previous video (I think it was in an interview with Bob Binnie) you casually mentioned you used the OA and checked the bottom boards (I have the freeman style you have as well) for mite drop. So you are treating and checking the mites at the same time and not killing the bees. You are essentially doing a mite check on the entire hives bees or at least the ones that are home during the treatment. That's very well thought out, kudos to you if that was your idea.
Yes Brian, that’s one of the reasons I’m set up on screens / oil trays. It gives me an idea of high, moderate, or low mite loads. Now, there are serious issues with that sampling technique…I don’t have a bee population, so I can’t calculate a % of infestation. I do think it is useful information, though flawed.
Another frustration is people will treat in summer at 4 day intervals 6 times or 7 times at 5 day intervals, etc… and think they are getting control. The bees die in winter and they can’t figure out why because they “treated”. OA is helpful, but unless the colony is broodless it’s not a great treatment, especially at the legal application rate. It buys you time, but you will need those winter followups you mentioned. I try to stress to people to do regular mite washes. You can’t just count on treating on a schedule. Let the mite counts dictate the timing of your treatments. The shop towels at 18g are failing for Randy as well. Two Swedish sponge at 25g each looks promising. I don’t believe Jennifer has tried the Swedish sponge yet, but could be wrong.
There is SO MUCH we don’t know! One of the big hindrances to research is that science hasn’t figured out how to keep mites alive in a lab. If you can’t grow them outside a beehive it’s a lot harder to experiment on them. Do mites react to different weather patterns??? With barber pole worms in goats I know to be really careful if it’s been wet and warm and the goats are grazing forage less than 3” tall. With mites we have no guidelines for population dynamics except the normal growth curve (peak in aug or so).
Perhaps the middle-ground solution is to use the FL Labs OA while no Supers are on... then transition to the "approved" certified OA only if/when you treat when Supers are in use?
I don't know Mike...my point with this video was to educate beekeepers who simply didn't know the situation. Once you know enough to make an informed decision, I feel like my job is done. What folks decide to do is up to them.
We who like to play with stinging insects tend to be a little on the rebellious side. Thanks for another very informative video, Nathan. That was a wonderful scenic backdrop for us to enjoy. Keep up the great content!
Great info Nathan and I agree - frustrating. I would like to put a little blame on our government. Uncle Sam has no problem in trying to run every aspect of our lives and they sure like our money, taxing us in a myriad of ways. Yet here they could step up to the plate with no cost involved and say " Use OAV in a way you want with any kind of OA you want". We have never found a harmful level of OA applied that harms the bees or hurts the honey in any way. Giving OA to the bees is as optional as feeding sugar syrup to our bees, why should the government even try to regulate it?
Any time you buy chemicals it's never 100% clean (with exceptions ofc) and with OA you're buying 99% OA afaik. That last 1% could be completely harmless or it could be heavy metals that could migrate into honey and into people. Having a report of that last 1% being harmless makes Apibioxal expensive. This is also why lab grade or food grade chemicals are more expensive then their industrial counterpart.
I don't have much luck with OAV, at best it reduces the numbers by 1/2 with a 10 gram treatment. Administered using a rim spacer with a drilled hole, placed between each hive body simultaneously, five (5) or more grams in each body, back to back, top to bottom. If the colony has high mite loads I'm using something better. One of my favorite lines; "That's all I have to say about that" Forrest Gump
So you’re using the dribble? LOL at Forrest Gump…I had that EXACT thought when I was editing the video…”man, I sound like Forrest Gump…oh well, I’m not gonna reshoot it…”
Serious question here, since you advise your viewers to strictly follow the label because, as you said, the label is the law, why would you promote the use of O.A. at all when you consider that if we do as you have suggested, we will be paying thirteen times more for an approved brand Of O.A. only to be limited by the label to using a dosage that has been proven to produce inadequate results? If we purchase the approved brand and exceed the allowed dosage, we might as well break another law and save $555.05 ! If the label allowed a sufficient dosage to achieve the desired results, then it would make sense, but rational thinking will not allow me to pay an extremely inflated price for an approved product while knowing full well that if I follow the label, I’ll have disappointing results. I, like you and others, wish to follow all laws, but they sure make it a challenge! I enjoy your content and I’m impressed with the knowledge you have gained in the relatively short time that you’ve been beekeeping. Thanks for your efforts!
Hi Ronnie, to clarify my point, I’m not advising viewers to strictly follow the label. I’m advising viewers to know what they’re doing and not blindly follow anyone’s advice, including mine. The only advice I’ll offer is to get local info, make a plan, implement it, and then check afterwards to see if it worked or not.
@@DuckRiverHoney thank you for clarifying your position. I felt that the 10:40-12:10 portion of the video pointed to beekeepers who purchase O.A. from other sources than the approved manufacturer as being responsible for subverting the market and holding up new technology with O.A. without equally holding the approved manufacturer responsible for charging over thirteen times the price of the others, which seamed to suggest that you felt we should purchase from the approved manufacturer. It’s understandable that their product would be more expensive as they had to bare the expense of the approval process, but it seams excessive. Admittedly, I may have misunderstood your intent. I appreciate your viewpoint either way. At the end of the day, we each have to decide what is best for our operation and be prepared to deal with the results.Thanks for putting out quality videos and thanks again for the clarification!
Subverting the market is an issue. A real issue. OA is so cheap that I’m afraid there isn’t enough money in it to draw attention from companies. No profit, no competition, no innovation. The Bee Culture article makes that point and I’d have to say it’s a valid point. Would you agree the point is valid, and that it’s an issue? Note that I’m not drawing a conclusion or advocating for anything.
@@DuckRiverHoney I do agree that it’s an issue.I think that in a perfect world, the approved manufacturer would reduce the price to a more acceptable level, which should still be more than the unapproved manufacturers, along with making their product available in bulk quantities at a better price. Then, we as beekeepers should be willing to spend more on an approved product that is reinvesting it into research that will benefit us all. Again, that’s a perfect word scenario applied to a very complicated and multi layered real world issue. While daydreaming of a perfect world, if the government could reduce some of the costs for a company going through the process of getting approval, that would undoubtedly make it easier for the company to be more competitive with their price. Would you agree that inflated pricing by the approved manufacturer also promotes subversion as it drives beekeepers to purchase the much cheaper unapproved product? It’s helpful to step back and try to view it from all angles.
Agreement! LOL. What I’d like to see is companies trying to develop long acting OA based products that get past the wax capping issue. I’d like to see American companies make and properly label this stuff, in buckets and tablet form. I’d like to see a lot of stuff.
Joe I’d say you took it wrong. I don’t have a horse. I’m simply trying to clarify the legalities and state the frustrations. Notice that I didn’t tell anyone what to do, except to KNOW what they’re doing.
What the high price of ApiBioxal shows is: How expensive testing/approval can be. I seriously don't think it is price gouging. The same thing occurs in human pharma. It's the cost of too much government.
Hi Nathan, great video! Important theme. Were can i find the US studies about OA treatment online? Especially the comparison between different method of application. In Germany it is even worse with OA vaporization. We don't have one allowed product for vaporization! Everybody is trickling a very expensive OA-Sugar-Water solution which is produced by big pharma. Only products with the "ad usum veterinarum" declaration are legal. Same as in the US.
Hi Harzer, I'm sort of shocked that the situation with OA is that bad in Germany. It's been used in Europe for so long I assumed you guys had it figured out already and we in the US were way behind. Jennifer Berry's team at the University of Georgia is studying OA. Bob Binnie has an interview series with them about what they're finding. Randy Oliver has a website - scientificbeekeeping.com/ where you can find his work.
@@DuckRiverHoney Thank you! Germany is way behind. I think France, Italy, Austria, Hungary and some other States of the EU allows OA-Vaporization. The provap is from hungary i think. It goes back to a German study from around 2000 were trickling is assumed cheap and good in results. I follow Bob Binnie as well. Learned a lot from him in the past Years. Best wishes, Tilmann (thats my name, harz mountains is were i am from.)
I am not sure the process, but there has to be a way for beekeepers to request/lobby the EPA or FDA to allow other OA manufacturers. The opposite side of the "only purchase approved products" argument is that other manufacturers may see from their sales that it is worth them getting approval from the regulators. That is with the understanding that purchasing products with exactly the same formula but not label approved still not legal, but for the average back yard beekeeper, what is the risk?
I think the process works the other way round. I’m no expert, but a product licensed in another country is easier to get licensed here. The upfront money for the labeling process is on the manufacturer…so if there’s no profit in it then why enter the market?
I am not sure how it works either, but if I were a manufacturer and I am seeing sales coming from an unexpected channel, in this case beekeepers, that might be an incentive to get my product licensed for that use and hopefully increase that sales channel. That is particularly true if my formulation is exactly the same as one that is already on the market. It is all speculation on my part admittedly.
Nathan, perhaps we can all start doing what we always do, test different methods on our own mites… Let’s all experiment, safely. It’s been enjoyable watching your series.
I think you hit on something there that may be important - “our own mites”. Different mite populations may react differently to the same treatment regime.
OAV is acceptable as treatment if one has under 50 hives, its very time consuming with mediocre results, that is my opinion and I only run around 100-200 hives at one time, depends on how many I sell per year. To play around with 4-5 times every 4 days or so is not practical and that time can be put to better use while using Apiguard or Apivar which gives way better results than Oxalic Acid in any form of administration. Have fun beekeeping. Dan
@@jodyfoster9278 After you take the honey off, I am in MI so that would be sometime in September-ish, in the spring I use Apivar, enough time to be able to pull everything out by nectar flow; not that complicated, but saves me a lot of time. Dan
Great points and truth. I don't know if you have seen any of randy oliver's recent talks on varroa treatment? He touched on the uga trial with the towels and said he collaborated with a student in virginia and others in humid areas in central or south america i believe. He said they had great efficacy. He thinks the uga study was likely affected by mite drift. Thanks for another great video.
The folks at UGA were doing research on the OA pads they are using in one of the South American countries last year, have you heard any of their results? This is going to be the way to treat with OA I am pretty sure, they were using some of Bob Binnes hives.
I think she was referring to Randy’s shop towell method RE: the trial that didn’t go well. I have t heard results on the new product from South America. It was already registered somewhere…Argentina maybe?
@@DuckRiverHoney I know about her results of the shop towel method, but I’m fairly certain I watched a video in the last week where she (maybe someone else) mentioned Aluen Cap (from Argentina) did not perform well. I could be wrong, but it’s set in my head for some reason. I watch a lot of RUclips and read a lot of studies so it all runs together at times. As Bob mentioned, we will find out soon either way. Good video as always Nathan, I love having these discussions.
There's a basic error in logic here. Only one legally registered does not equal everything else is illegal as you state in about 1:45. For example, there is no legally registered paint for painting beehives does not mean you're breaking the law by painting your hives. It's part of a basic understanding of society and laws. Is everything permitted unless forbidden or is everything illegal unless permitted?
In this case only products labeled for pesticide use in beehives are legal to use as pesticides in beehives. I’ll decline debating ideology and simply state the fact.
Hello Nathan. To start with I want to thank you for your passion for better beekeeping. The Binnie videos were superb. That being said I think you have a really long way to go regarding comprehending the real world of beekeeping. Least not the commercial side of it. Especially the economics within. What do you consider the economic threshhold of varroa? That answer depends on the month and the curve of growth for the year. The real answer is lower than it was considered to be even 2 years ago. Also the date is pushing earlier in the calendar all the Time. Right now for us its washes of less than 2 per 100 end of June. No more 3s or more in July.. Nope. Also . As per your commnet about OA being more easy on the bees. As someone, shall we say. Who " utilized" wheel barrel quantities of said product the past year after 25 years of "experimenting" with equivalent quantities over a very long time thats not necessarily the case. Way off. Next. Your comment about vaporizing and use of the appropriate masking is to be fullly heeded. I remember chatting with beeks out the Canadian prarries at apimondia in 99 who told horror stories of beeks with burnt lungs. Enough for now. Time to slap a tote of syrup down some throats.. Keep up the good work.
OA is hope. follow the money for the legal aspect. are my bees doing better, or not. mites are bad, other things kill bees too, no mites and no food is rough on them. I have had great results with Varroa control using sub legal methods, and still lost a of bees this year. results are what I want. great video, keep us thinking
@@DuckRiverHoney also on the EPA website it states "Beekeepers are encouraged to check with their state pesticide regulatory agencies to determine the regulatory status of the products in the individual states." I'm actually curious now how much of a chemical difference there is between the two.
Thank you for talking about the legal aspects of OAV, I am always asking beekeepers if they are using the legal type. The main response is that it costs too much and there's no difference. In conclusion isn't it better to be safe? Keep pushing
Michael what really bothers me is seeing social media experts putting it out there as gospel that generic is fine, with NO MENTION of the legality. If you want to break the law I won’t stop you, but I do think you should at least know you’re breaking it.
@@DuckRiverHoney you are correct about the experts and a lot of people follow them blindly. People, a lot of time don't want to hear the truth. Beekeepers should be pushing the American manufacturers to have the EPA test their OA.
It’s a shame that we as beekeepers are stuck in one way of thinking on treating for mites. It seems some innovative thinkers will step away from the chemical side and look to a different style on how to remove the pest without the bees having to live with these chemicals I as a beekeeper have been using Apivar in august and 3 rounds of O A in late December my results have been great for a lot of years yet if I could come up with something of no chemicals I would jump on it in a heartbeat we at our Apiares are running test on a idea with no chemicals which I no a lot of keepers will say you got to treat but again there is someone who sometimes gets it right when a out of the box idea that know one has thought about saves the planet they said Noah was crazy for building a ark in the desert
I hope you are very successful! I’m an inventor with a successful product (not in beekeeping) so if I can relate any experience that may help you let me know.
@@30farms70 I’m in central Mississippi. It’s been in the 20s at night for the past couple weeks and I pulled several frames of brood yesterday. I’m probably going to move for more Caucasian or Carni genetics to try and get closer to broodless winters…
Oxalic Acid USP is top quality product. Somebody has been paid off to specify the Italian branded OA. Something hinky going on here. USP means U.S. Pharmacopeia which is top quality and purity.
Hi Nathan. Thanks for the video. I share your frustration - follow the law and fail to control mite population or use (illegally) a higher dose and control mite population. Not the greatest choice, but I suspect most of us will explore the higher dose option and see if we kill more mites.
@Duck River Honey burdensome regulation. If oxalic acid has a certificate of analysis, then we should be able to use it from any source. Then, you have slow government. The honey lobby needs to step up and push the EPA. But then we don't know who bank rolls that special interest group. I suspect it's not oxalic acid producers. I agree that if you stir the pot enough, it will start to stink.
Maybe, but my real fear is that there isn’t ENOUGH money in OA to get the bigger companies interested. If you can buy 10 lbs for $28 and you’re already selling into that market, why go through an expensive labeling process? If there was money in it we’d have competition.
Hi Nathan. Good info as always. I thought I might add a little to the dialog if I may. I noticed a comment on this video from someone that had seen Randy Oliver comment that the UGA study on oxalic and towels may have bee flawed due to mite drift. I've seen this comment in and after other You Tube videos and thought I should finally add in my two cents. Half of the colonies in this study were mine and I'm fairly sure that mite drift was not involved. The UGA crew seemed to do everything right but mite counts expanded steadily during the study. The bees in the study were in several yards that were miles apart and were relatively isolated with no other yards in the area. I lost most of them to very large mite numbers in the end. It seems logical that something like mite drift could be the problem and I think anyone (myself included) might make this assumption if they weren't there. I also had a good friend in Wisconsin that followed instructions to a T and experienced the same thing. I don't know why it didn't work for us, it just didn't work. I know of others that say it works. No disrespect here, just reporting.
Bob thanks for chipping in with that gem. I’ll pin this to the top. Have you heard anything promising from the South American product they were going to test?
@@DuckRiverHoney I met with Jennifer Berry and Lewis Bartlett at UGA on Tuesday and have an appointment next Monday with Dan Aurell at Auburn University, who was a big part of this. Should be editing a video with results within 10 days. Thanks.
Awesome, I’m looking forward to it. Hope it works, but afraid it won’t. 🤞
Thank you for sharing your answer bob, i was trying to share information to Nathan i thought would be beneficial and you having participated responded with information i was not aware of which was a big benefit for me as well as i am trying to figure out my own mite treatment strategy. This is great. Thank you both bob and nathan. This is what it's all about.. learning.
I appreciate you sharing your experience. I haven’t heard of much enforcement regarding mite treatments, except for a large producer back in the day.
Same thing here in France, obviously!! Yes, we can’t buy large qualities of Apibioxal, Same story and you explained it perfectly. Do different states have any different refs re Apibioxal or does USDA approval cover all America?
Obviously we ALL use Apibioxal all the time, the generic Oxyalic Acid we buy in large quantities, is purely a “hive cleaner” ! There you have it!! 🤷🏼♂️🐝🐝🐝 good video we all share your frustration!!!!
As far as I know it’s countrywide, but I imagine certain states also impose different regs. Thanks Richard!
@@DuckRiverHoney 💯👌🏻🥂
Good video Nathan. I have to admit that I am one who has been using the OA illegally in shop towels since 2018, and also in the sponges last year. I have used the recipe Randy Oliver uses. The average mite count per 100 bees for all of my colonies last year was .4, with the end of November test yielding .1 mites after the MAQS application in October. The question was posed, who greased the USDA's hand to allow Mann-Lake to get the permit to sell OA at the price you referenced. Tariffs and shipping could never drive the cost that high. No one has proven that the Florida Lab OA is any different chemically than the M-L OA and I believe they both advertise the same degree of purity. As to following the letter of the law, I have heard numerous commercial beekeepers tell me that if they listened to the State Apiarist and followed his instructions to that degree, none of them would be in business anymore. Brushy Mountain had the sole right to sell OA before they went out of business, but they were not trying to rape beekeepers the way M-L does.
Thanks Dick, it was actually you that I was thinking of when I said that viewers should get local information on what works and doesn't work. You're a resource that a lot of beekeepers lean on. On another note, I believe the Fla Labs OA is actually a little more pure than Api-Bioxal.
@@DuckRiverHoney I would love to know someone on the inside at Fla Labs to see if they sell OA overseas, maybe even to those companies you mentioned.
@@R_Brickner don't worry. It's not your reseller that's shafting you. It's the producer... We have about the same price for ApiBioxal here in Europe (plus 20+% tax).
I appreciate you chiming in with your experience from Europe. It’s valuable for us to hear that.
@@DuckRiverHoney I can get the 350g sachel for roughly 75€. I can get an unapproved Oxalic acid for about 12€ per kg which makes the ApiBioxal roughly 18 times more expensive.
Thank you for being so honest and informative. I do not have beehives but I do love honey and wish to ingest the purest honey, not that which is contaminated with pesticides. I hope the supplier’s are listening to your plight with regard to an easier way of applying to hives. Like you stated , we only get one set of lungs!! I usually by local raw honey but also love to try raw honey from different areas when we travel. Take care and hopefully your issue is resolved sooner rather than later.
Thanks Deanna!
Nathan, I really appreciate you doing these videos, very helpful for growing my apiary! The RUclips community amazes me how much you all share trying to improve our beekeeper community.
Thanks Tim!
Nathan thanks for passing on the information. I sorry but I have respectfully disagree with the idea that beekeepers in the country should be buying the OA made in Europe. Also I disagree that we need to buy the more expensive stuff so companies will start making it. We have companies in this country making OA as you pointed out. Why did did USDA chose that specific company? If there is a reason that the OA we have here shouldn't be used, then that should have been communicated by the USDA. Just because they made it "The Law" doesn't help the beekeepers that are losing their hives. The question of the dosage being too low is another problem. The low dose is in danger of causing a bigger chance of the mites developing immunity. The USDA also was tasked with finding Varroa resistant (vsh) bees, which they dropped the ball on. Beekeepers have been left mostly on their own to try to find treatments or breed bees that hopefully won't require treatment. You can bring up what the law says all you want but if my bees are dying and there is no help out there, I'm going to do my best to find a solution. That's what the beekeepers in this country are doing. And you will too. Again no disrespect.
Hi Kenneth, the point of this video was mostly to educate new beekeepers on the legalities, as well as current research that indicates the legal dose may not work. Past that people can make an informed decision for themselves. I do wish we could have some entrants to the market to bring competition and innovative products.
Varroa and bees. Parasites and host.
Politicians/bureaucrats and society/beekeepers. Parasites and host.
@@DuckRiverHoney Can you speak on the latest announcement from Randy?
From Scientific Beekeeping.
News flash: EPA’s position on experimental use of EOA
I have received numerous requests from "citizen-science" beekeepers across the country, wanting to run their own field trials of extended-release oxalic acid in their particular environments. For my research, I obtain a “Pesticide Research Authorization” from my own State Lead Agency each year, but other beekeepers have reported that their respective SLA refers them to EPA to obtain an “Experimental Use Permit” (EUP).
Gina Burnett, Senior Regulatory Advisor for the EPA’s Biochemical Pesticides Branch, was gracious enough to go over the regulations with me (relevant verbiage highlighted):
§ 172.3 Scope of requirement.
(a) An experimental use permit (EUP) is generally required for testing of any unregistered pesticide or any registered pesticide being tested for an unregistered use. However, as described in paragraph (b) of this section, certain of such tests are presumed not to involve unreasonable adverse effects and, therefore, do not require an EUP.
(b) Except as provided in subpart C of this part or as specifically determined by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), it may be presumed that EUPs are not required when:
(1) The experimental use of the pesticide is limited to:
(i) Laboratory or greenhouse tests,
(ii) Limited replicated field trials as described in paragraph (c) of this section to confirm such tests, or
(iii) Other tests as described in paragraph (c) of this section whose purpose is only to assess the pesticide's potential efficacy, toxicity, or other properties.
(2) The producer, applicator, or any other person conducting the test does not expect to receive any benefit in pest control from the pesticide's use.
(c) For purposes of paragraphs (b)(1)(ii) and (b)(1)(iii) of this section, the following types of experimental tests are presumed not to need an EUP:
(1) A small-scale test involving use of a particular pesticide that is conducted on a cumulative total of no more than 10 acres of land per pest, except that:
(i) When testing for more than one target pest occurs at the same time and in the same locality, the 10 acre limitation shall encompass all of the target pests.
(ii) Any food or feed crops involved in, or affected by, such tests (including, but not limited to, crops subsequently grown on such land which may reasonably be expected to contain residues of the tested pesticides) shall be destroyed or consumed only by experimental animals unless an appropriate tolerance or exemption from a tolerance has been established under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) for residues of the pesticide.
Since the FDA has ruled that “Residues of oxalic acid in or on honey and honeycomb are exempted from the requirement of a tolerance when oxalic acid is used as a miticide in honeybee hives,” the EPA does not have any restrictions as to whether the honey can be harvested and consumed.
Bottom line: Unless your State has more restrictive requirements, you would not need to obtain an EUP from EPA to run small-scale trials with oxalic acid. Be clear that this only applies to use for experimental testing!
Note from Randy: Thank you all for your generous support this past year. I've received enough donations to pay for my assistant Brooke to come back and help run a slate of research projects this season.
I'm continuing to work with EPA to get the extended-release application method of OA, approved, and have requested the paperwork to become a Registrant, so that we beekeepers can legally use this method. Wish me luck!
My email inbox is crazy -- no need to reply to this update, thanks.
Hi Terri, I don’t think I need to speak to it, the release is pretty thorough. EPA guidance should be in effect unless a persons state has more restrictive laws.
It's all about money. The fda and epa could care less about the health of our bees.
Well, to be fair it’s all about consumer safety. People can get badly hurt using these products, so the regulators are there to minimize risk to applicators as well as food safety risk downstream. Bureaucracy of all types is inefficient, but I won’t say it’s unnecessary.
It’s got be closer to “all about the money” then “all about consumer safety.” Bureaucracy is inefficient for a reason.
You know..German 'Bayer' makes all kinds of amitraz tretmants and other chemicals for bees "medicine". But not for Germany.. they can use only formic or oxalic. The bureaucracy of legal / healthy is a strange thing. I love the minimum % permited. That doesn't sound like some lobbyist BS at all
Nathan, Thank you for consolidating all the information and for not avoiding difficult topics. OA is “the elephant in the room”. I love your line “truth is truth whether you want to hear it or not”.
Thanks Dwight, I figured this one might stir things up a bit, and that is NOT something I enjoy.
FYI: Treating in August with 4g/deep OAV 6x on 4-day interval was mostly effective. BUT…a few hives did not receive adequate control and required an additional 6x treatments.
I’m at 17 colonies right now. 6x and 12x OAV was *a lot* of work. Planning to use ApiGuard in July/August this year. Then 1x OAV on Halloween. Then 4x OAV w/ 4-day interval in mid-December. Will also try Randy’s OA/gly sponges in May/June to prevent July surprises.
Used 4x OAV in December 2021. Good results. Glad I did a series. Most colonies were not broodless, as evidenced by mite drop from all 4 treatments.
No set recipe for success…that’s a frustration of mine. Lots of guesswork.
@@DuckRiverHoney
Diligence, vigilance, persistence.
Thanks Ryan 👍
Holy holy!
Good on you for acknowledging your resposibilty and possible influence in general. You can be confident that lots of viewers will give consideration to your concerns.
Oxalic acid treatment has been around a long while. That being said , individuals like yourself will be responsible for causing the industry to develop the very best practice for using it.
We're all in this together. Breathtaking backdrop! Cheers.
Thanks for the kind words. I’m not a social media person, and I take this platform seriously.
Thank you for this information. Just started last year and now I’m think I’ll look more into chemical treatment free bee keeping for my small apiary.
I’d advise you bee a REALLY good beekeeper before you try to go treatment free. That’s a very tough way to succeed beekeeping.
You are correct. Maybe I’ll try just 1 hive treatment free.
My advice would be to be 1. Isolated from other beekeepers by 5 miles, and 2. Start with 10 hives, preferably with proven TF queen lines. 3. Expect to lose 80% of them and build back from the survivors.
Great video Nathan! I am glad someone talked about this in detail. When I first bought OA I thought I was doing right by getting very specific with my online search (assuming there were possibly knock off products). I asked for USDA approved OA to treat bees and almost all of the results were for FL. Unfortunately, that's where I purchased my first small batch. I later did some more detailed research and found what you presented in your video. I think another problem with people buying only the approved OA is truth in advertising and marketing. I believe it is fair to say that many people, like me, think they are doing right only to find out later that they are not. The other part of your video is also right on the money as a shared frustration with the amount of OA at 1 gram per deep. It appears there are no limitations (yet) on the number of consecutive treatments but in order to stay within the recommended doses, you would have to treat at least 5-6 times in a 20-24-day period to gain any ground on the mites. That is a lot of work and time, especially if you have to treat a large apiary. Thanks for sharing with everyone!
Thanks Matt, my hope was to educate those that may not know…what they choose to do is up to them.
Matt, USDA has no control over a "Pesticide" only EPA regulates those substances.
Well said, I agree with you.Thsnk You for voiceing an opinion
Nathan, This is a very important information for all of us to understand. We like OA in early spring and fall works the best for us. Summer treatment is always tricky. Thanks for the video!!!!!
Thanks Rickey!
Good video with great perspective and fact based dialogue. Been following Jennifer for a while now and it's also been good to see her work with Bob. Also read Randy Oliver's research in ABJ. A lot going on with this treatment. I'm at a disadvantage regardless due to having brood most all of the year. Glad you pinned Bob's comment.
Thanks Mike, it is tougher down where you are. We can get them shut down up here.
Nathan - In a previous video (I think it was in an interview with Bob Binnie) you casually mentioned you used the OA and checked the bottom boards (I have the freeman style you have as well) for mite drop. So you are treating and checking the mites at the same time and not killing the bees. You are essentially doing a mite check on the entire hives bees or at least the ones that are home during the treatment. That's very well thought out, kudos to you if that was your idea.
Yes Brian, that’s one of the reasons I’m set up on screens / oil trays. It gives me an idea of high, moderate, or low mite loads. Now, there are serious issues with that sampling technique…I don’t have a bee population, so I can’t calculate a % of infestation. I do think it is useful information, though flawed.
Thanks Nathan for another great video. I think the pot is stirred. Keep it up until we see some changes. I agree in the meantime it’s frustrating.
I appreciate it
Another frustration is people will treat in summer at 4 day intervals 6 times or 7 times at 5 day intervals, etc… and think they are getting control. The bees die in winter and they can’t figure out why because they “treated”. OA is helpful, but unless the colony is broodless it’s not a great treatment, especially at the legal application rate. It buys you time, but you will need those winter followups you mentioned. I try to stress to people to do regular mite washes. You can’t just count on treating on a schedule. Let the mite counts dictate the timing of your treatments. The shop towels at 18g are failing for Randy as well. Two Swedish sponge at 25g each looks promising. I don’t believe Jennifer has tried the Swedish sponge yet, but could be wrong.
There is SO MUCH we don’t know! One of the big hindrances to research is that science hasn’t figured out how to keep mites alive in a lab. If you can’t grow them outside a beehive it’s a lot harder to experiment on them. Do mites react to different weather patterns??? With barber pole worms in goats I know to be really careful if it’s been wet and warm and the goats are grazing forage less than 3” tall. With mites we have no guidelines for population dynamics except the normal growth curve (peak in aug or so).
@@DuckRiverHoney yep, it’s certainly a slow process because of that. But we are at the very least finding out what doesn’t work.
Perhaps the middle-ground solution is to use the FL Labs OA while no Supers are on... then transition to the "approved" certified OA only if/when you treat when Supers are in use?
I don't know Mike...my point with this video was to educate beekeepers who simply didn't know the situation. Once you know enough to make an informed decision, I feel like my job is done. What folks decide to do is up to them.
We who like to play with stinging insects tend to be a little on the rebellious side. Thanks for another very informative video, Nathan. That was a wonderful scenic backdrop for us to enjoy. Keep up the great content!
Thanks James!
Great info Nathan and I agree - frustrating. I would like to put a little blame on our government. Uncle Sam has no problem in trying to run every aspect of our lives and they sure like our money, taxing us in a myriad of ways. Yet here they could step up to the plate with no cost involved and say " Use OAV in a way you want with any kind of OA you want". We have never found a harmful level of OA applied that harms the bees or hurts the honey in any way. Giving OA to the bees is as optional as feeding sugar syrup to our bees, why should the government even try to regulate it?
Any time you buy chemicals it's never 100% clean (with exceptions ofc) and with OA you're buying 99% OA afaik. That last 1% could be completely harmless or it could be heavy metals that could migrate into honey and into people. Having a report of that last 1% being harmless makes Apibioxal expensive. This is also why lab grade or food grade chemicals are more expensive then their industrial counterpart.
Mites are spiders with 8 legs.
Bees are insects with 6 legs.
Greatings from abroad
Gerd
True, related to ticks, which is my least favorite insect.
I don't have much luck with OAV, at best it reduces the numbers by 1/2 with a 10 gram treatment. Administered using a rim spacer with a drilled hole, placed between each hive body simultaneously, five (5) or more grams in each body, back to back, top to bottom. If the colony has high mite loads I'm using something better. One of my favorite lines; "That's all I have to say about that" Forrest Gump
So you’re using the dribble? LOL at Forrest Gump…I had that EXACT thought when I was editing the video…”man, I sound like Forrest Gump…oh well, I’m not gonna reshoot it…”
Thank you sir! So glad I found your channel!
Thanks Chris, where are you from?
@@DuckRiverHoney I'm In N Illninois now... just outside Chicago. But I just bought some property around Lk Cumberland KY where I plan to move my bees.
That’s awesome, I lived in Somerset for several years. That’ll be a great area for you.
Serious question here, since you advise your viewers to strictly follow the label because, as you said, the label is the law, why would you promote the use of O.A. at all when you consider that if we do as you have suggested, we will be paying thirteen times more for an approved brand Of O.A. only to be limited by the label to using a dosage that has been proven to produce inadequate results? If we purchase the approved brand and exceed the allowed dosage, we might as well break another law and save $555.05 ! If the label allowed a sufficient dosage to achieve the desired results, then it would make sense, but rational thinking will not allow me to pay an extremely inflated price for an approved product while knowing full well that if I follow the label, I’ll have disappointing results. I, like you and others, wish to follow all laws, but they sure make it a challenge! I enjoy your content and I’m impressed with the knowledge you have gained in the relatively short time that you’ve been beekeeping. Thanks for your efforts!
Hi Ronnie, to clarify my point, I’m not advising viewers to strictly follow the label. I’m advising viewers to know what they’re doing and not blindly follow anyone’s advice, including mine. The only advice I’ll offer is to get local info, make a plan, implement it, and then check afterwards to see if it worked or not.
@@DuckRiverHoney thank you for clarifying your position. I felt that the 10:40-12:10 portion of the video pointed to beekeepers who purchase O.A. from other sources than the approved manufacturer as being responsible for subverting the market and holding up new technology with O.A. without equally holding the approved manufacturer responsible for charging over thirteen times the price of the others, which seamed to suggest that you felt we should purchase from the approved manufacturer. It’s understandable that their product would be more expensive as they had to bare the expense of the approval process, but it seams excessive. Admittedly, I may have misunderstood your intent. I appreciate your viewpoint either way. At the end of the day, we each have to decide what is best for our operation and be prepared to deal with the results.Thanks for putting out quality videos and thanks again for the clarification!
Subverting the market is an issue. A real issue. OA is so cheap that I’m afraid there isn’t enough money in it to draw attention from companies. No profit, no competition, no innovation. The Bee Culture article makes that point and I’d have to say it’s a valid point. Would you agree the point is valid, and that it’s an issue? Note that I’m not drawing a conclusion or advocating for anything.
@@DuckRiverHoney I do agree that it’s an issue.I think that in a perfect world, the approved manufacturer would reduce the price to a more acceptable level, which should still be more than the unapproved manufacturers, along with making their product available in bulk quantities at a better price. Then, we as beekeepers should be willing to spend more on an approved product that is reinvesting it into research that will benefit us all. Again, that’s a perfect word scenario applied to a very complicated and multi layered real world issue. While daydreaming of a perfect world, if the government could reduce some of the costs for a company going through the process of getting approval, that would undoubtedly make it easier for the company to be more competitive with their price. Would you agree that inflated pricing by the approved manufacturer also promotes subversion as it drives beekeepers to purchase the much cheaper unapproved product? It’s helpful to step back and try to view it from all angles.
Agreement! LOL. What I’d like to see is companies trying to develop long acting OA based products that get past the wax capping issue. I’d like to see American companies make and properly label this stuff, in buckets and tablet form. I’d like to see a lot of stuff.
Maybe I took it wrong but it sounds like that’s a mighty high horse your riding.
Joe I’d say you took it wrong. I don’t have a horse. I’m simply trying to clarify the legalities and state the frustrations. Notice that I didn’t tell anyone what to do, except to KNOW what they’re doing.
What the high price of ApiBioxal shows is: How expensive testing/approval can be. I seriously don't think it is price gouging. The same thing occurs in human pharma. It's the cost of too much government.
Very possible, but they do have to ship it half way around the world too…and maybe pay taxes in multiple countries.
Hi Nathan, great video! Important theme. Were can i find the US studies about OA treatment online? Especially the comparison between different method of application. In Germany it is even worse with OA vaporization. We don't have one allowed product for vaporization! Everybody is trickling a very expensive OA-Sugar-Water solution which is produced by big pharma. Only products with the "ad usum veterinarum" declaration are legal. Same as in the US.
Hi Harzer, I'm sort of shocked that the situation with OA is that bad in Germany. It's been used in Europe for so long I assumed you guys had it figured out already and we in the US were way behind. Jennifer Berry's team at the University of Georgia is studying OA. Bob Binnie has an interview series with them about what they're finding. Randy Oliver has a website - scientificbeekeeping.com/ where you can find his work.
@@DuckRiverHoney Thank you! Germany is way behind. I think France, Italy, Austria, Hungary and some other States of the EU allows OA-Vaporization. The provap is from hungary i think. It goes back to a German study from around 2000 were trickling is assumed cheap and good in results. I follow Bob Binnie as well. Learned a lot from him in the past Years. Best wishes, Tilmann (thats my name, harz mountains is were i am from.)
Then I guess if we want to control mites,it’s all illegal, since following directions don’t control mites.
Well, to be fair…it may, or it may not. That’s the frustration.
I am not sure the process, but there has to be a way for beekeepers to request/lobby the EPA or FDA to allow other OA manufacturers. The opposite side of the "only purchase approved products" argument is that other manufacturers may see from their sales that it is worth them getting approval from the regulators. That is with the understanding that purchasing products with exactly the same formula but not label approved still not legal, but for the average back yard beekeeper, what is the risk?
I think the process works the other way round. I’m no expert, but a product licensed in another country is easier to get licensed here. The upfront money for the labeling process is on the manufacturer…so if there’s no profit in it then why enter the market?
I am not sure how it works either, but if I were a manufacturer and I am seeing sales coming from an unexpected channel, in this case beekeepers, that might be an incentive to get my product licensed for that use and hopefully increase that sales channel. That is particularly true if my formulation is exactly the same as one that is already on the market. It is all speculation on my part admittedly.
Nathan, perhaps we can all start doing what we always do, test different methods on our own mites… Let’s all experiment, safely. It’s been enjoyable watching your series.
I think you hit on something there that may be important - “our own mites”. Different mite populations may react differently to the same treatment regime.
OAV is acceptable as treatment if one has under 50 hives, its very time consuming with mediocre results, that is my opinion and I only run around 100-200 hives at one time, depends on how many I sell per year. To play around with 4-5 times every 4 days or so is not practical and that time can be put to better use while using Apiguard or Apivar which gives way better results than Oxalic Acid in any form of administration.
Have fun beekeeping.
Dan
So when do you use apiguard?
@@jodyfoster9278 After you take the honey off, I am in MI so that would be sometime in September-ish, in the spring I use Apivar, enough time to be able to pull everything out by nectar flow; not that complicated, but saves me a lot of time. Dan
I agree that current OA treatments aren’t suited for commercial applications with brood in hives. Maybe someday we’ll have some different products.
@@DuckRiverHoney I hope so too, otherwise we will lose the varroa mite fight by using concentrated chemicals like Amitraz, etc. Dan
It’s a tough issue. Breeding bees to be resistant to mites and breeding mites to be less virulent is probably part of the long term solution.
Very helpful!! Thanks
Thanks Rudy!
Great points and truth. I don't know if you have seen any of randy oliver's recent talks on varroa treatment? He touched on the uga trial with the towels and said he collaborated with a student in virginia and others in humid areas in central or south america i believe. He said they had great efficacy. He thinks the uga study was likely affected by mite drift. Thanks for another great video.
Randall take a look at Bob’s comment pinned at the top. I believe this another of those situations where we just don’t know enough yet.
The folks at UGA were doing research on the OA pads they are using in one of the South American countries last year, have you heard any of their results? This is going to be the way to treat with OA I am pretty sure, they were using some of Bob Binnes hives.
That trial did not go well at all. I’ll try to find the video where Jennifer gave that info.
I think she was referring to Randy’s shop towell method RE: the trial that didn’t go well. I have t heard results on the new product from South America. It was already registered somewhere…Argentina maybe?
@@DuckRiverHoney I know about her results of the shop towel method, but I’m fairly certain I watched a video in the last week where she (maybe someone else) mentioned Aluen Cap (from Argentina) did not perform well. I could be wrong, but it’s set in my head for some reason. I watch a lot of RUclips and read a lot of studies so it all runs together at times. As Bob mentioned, we will find out soon either way. Good video as always Nathan, I love having these discussions.
Thanks, I appreciate that
There's a basic error in logic here. Only one legally registered does not equal everything else is illegal as you state in about 1:45. For example, there is no legally registered paint for painting beehives does not mean you're breaking the law by painting your hives. It's part of a basic understanding of society and laws. Is everything permitted unless forbidden or is everything illegal unless permitted?
In this case only products labeled for pesticide use in beehives are legal to use as pesticides in beehives. I’ll decline debating ideology and simply state the fact.
Great content thank you for this clarification
Thanks John!
Who bribed the mann to make the api bioxal???
That's a good question...
Hello Nathan. To start with I want to thank you for your passion for better beekeeping. The Binnie videos were superb.
That being said I think you have a really long way to go regarding comprehending the real world of beekeeping. Least not the commercial side of it. Especially the economics within.
What do you consider the economic threshhold of varroa? That answer depends on the month and the curve of growth for the year.
The real answer is lower than it was considered to be even 2 years ago. Also the date is pushing earlier in the calendar all the Time. Right now for us its washes of less than 2 per 100 end of June. No more 3s or more in July.. Nope.
Also . As per your commnet about OA being more easy on the bees. As someone, shall we say. Who " utilized" wheel barrel quantities of said product the past year after 25 years of "experimenting" with equivalent quantities over a very long time thats not necessarily the case. Way off.
Next. Your comment about vaporizing and use of the appropriate masking is to be fullly heeded. I remember chatting with beeks out the Canadian prarries at apimondia in 99 who told horror stories of beeks with burnt lungs.
Enough for now. Time to slap a tote of syrup down some throats..
Keep up the good work.
I appreciate the comment, and agree that I have more questions than answers.
OA is hope. follow the money for the legal aspect. are my bees doing better, or not. mites are bad, other things kill bees too, no mites and no food is rough on them. I have had great results with Varroa control using sub legal methods, and still lost a of bees this year. results are what I want. great video, keep us thinking
Thanks Harris
Thanks for the insight
Thanks
Just wondering if anyone has compared the foreign OA with the Florida OA in a lab and published the results?
I’m not aware of it. The Fla Labs stuff is actually a little more pure
Very informative. Thank you.
Thanks
Don't laws vary state to state?
Yes, but EPA regulates pesticides, that’s nationwide.
@@DuckRiverHoney also on the EPA website it states "Beekeepers are encouraged to check with their state pesticide regulatory agencies to determine the regulatory status of the products in the individual states." I'm actually curious now how much of a chemical difference there is between the two.
Thank you for talking about the legal aspects of OAV, I am always asking beekeepers if they are using the legal type. The main response is that it costs too much and there's no difference. In conclusion isn't it better to be safe? Keep pushing
Michael what really bothers me is seeing social media experts putting it out there as gospel that generic is fine, with NO MENTION of the legality. If you want to break the law I won’t stop you, but I do think you should at least know you’re breaking it.
@@DuckRiverHoney you are correct about the experts and a lot of people follow them blindly. People, a lot of time don't want to hear the truth. Beekeepers should be pushing the American manufacturers to have the EPA test their OA.
It’s a shame that we as beekeepers are stuck in one way of thinking on treating for mites. It seems some innovative thinkers will step away from the chemical side and look to a different style on how to remove the pest without the bees having to live with these chemicals I as a beekeeper have been using Apivar in august and 3 rounds of O A in late December my results have been great for a lot of years yet if I could come up with something of no chemicals I would jump on it in a heartbeat we at our Apiares are running test on a idea with no chemicals which I no a lot of keepers will say you got to treat but again there is someone who sometimes gets it right when a out of the box idea that know one has thought about saves the planet they said Noah was crazy for building a ark in the desert
I hope you are very successful! I’m an inventor with a successful product (not in beekeeping) so if I can relate any experience that may help you let me know.
I'm in south Alabama, I think I do better waiting to the end of January to treat with oxalic acid. It doesn't really get cold here till then.
Maybe so, maybe not. It’s possible shortening day length does as much to shut them down as weather. Or a combination. I don’t know for sure.
@@DuckRiverHoney I always have brood in my boxes it seems.
Far enough south, lots of light and lots of warmth…you may never go broodless. You down near the gulf?
@@DuckRiverHoney I'm about 2 1\2 hours away.
@@30farms70 I’m in central Mississippi. It’s been in the 20s at night for the past couple weeks and I pulled several frames of brood yesterday. I’m probably going to move for more Caucasian or Carni genetics to try and get closer to broodless winters…
The label is the law but mom always said the rules just don't apply to Robert.
👍
👍👍
Oxalic Acid USP is top quality product. Somebody has been paid off to specify the Italian branded OA. Something hinky going on here.
USP means U.S. Pharmacopeia which is top quality and purity.
I don’t know that anybody has been paid off, my fear is something worse….there’s not enough money in it for companies to care.
Hi Nathan. Thanks for the video. I share your frustration - follow the law and fail to control mite population or use (illegally) a higher dose and control mite population. Not the greatest choice, but I suspect most of us will explore the higher dose option and see if we kill more mites.
Why can’t the law keep pace with what we need?
@Duck River Honey burdensome regulation. If oxalic acid has a certificate of analysis, then we should be able to use it from any source. Then, you have slow government. The honey lobby needs to step up and push the EPA. But then we don't know who bank rolls that special interest group. I suspect it's not oxalic acid producers. I agree that if you stir the pot enough, it will start to stink.
I’m hoping that this video might push the discussion a bit. Anyway, it’s about all I know to do.
good video....why would anyone waste their time and use 1 ounce. Boggles the brain. The reasoning with the law is wacked.
Agreed, the label needs to change. Hopefully the work UGA is doing will facilitate that.
If you can follow the money, I bet you also find that politics are tied up in this as well.
Maybe, but my real fear is that there isn’t ENOUGH money in OA to get the bigger companies interested. If you can buy 10 lbs for $28 and you’re already selling into that market, why go through an expensive labeling process? If there was money in it we’d have competition.