Honestly, the Undead Sorcerer repeating his backstory when his loyalty is questioned is actually a great storytelling. The Sorcerer does not really have its free will, so when the party does not go along, he repeats the lines the Necromancer fed to him. Unfortunately, the Dungeon Master did not realize he accidentally created a better story than what he originally thought of.
I would have added a will save with a DC low enough for at least one party member to pass and tell anyone who passed that this undead creature just tried to charm them.
Can you imagine if this kept happening? I feel like the DM was too wrapped up in his story to ever let this happen, but imagine if he kept making bad decisions to punish the players, but they kept taking it as excellent storytelling (to the DM’s utter bewilderment).
You can't call someone ignorant if they had no way of knowing something. "Just look at thise ignorant fucking first graders, don't even know what the mitochondria is. So ignorant"
reminds me of that one episode of Star Trek TNG where the Edo were ready to kill Wesley for accidentally breaking a law THAT HE WAS NOT INFORMED OF! it is wrong to punish someone for ACCIDENTALLY breaking a law they were not properly notified of prior to that violation of it, ESPECIALLY if the punishment is a death sentence
Yeah I don't get Critcrab's take on this one. And people talking about the shattering armor rule baffles me. Unless weapons have an enchantment (which would violate the no magic ass pull law) that transmutes steel to glass, steel doesn't shatter like that.
I have an idea for a twist on “Turn Undead”. Instead of making the undead run away from you, if you happen to be grave or death cleric it could instead allow you to use your god’s power to temporarily bind the undead enemies to your will for the duration of the fight. At the end of the fight the grave/death cleric could then release them from their curse of undeath
@@brianvance1178Evil Clerics (and Neutral ones) could either Turn (or destroy) Undead as normal, or Control them for the duration of Turning (or permanently if they would be destroyed).
To quote that one french gal from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance… “I am A stranger who has found an even stranger war, I’ve finally found what IIIIIIIIIIII’ve, been LOOOO, king for!”
Yea, a DM punishing a player who's too perceptive and smart, is not a good DM. Inventing rules on the get go only to punish the players for not playing the story exactly how he plans, is a bad DM. Sure, I'm also not good at improvising and would have my troubles with that, but to handle it this way? No. And do I remember it correctly that this was supposed to be a "lifelong DM" whatever that means, but it should at least mean they're experienced enough to do something properly, and this wasn't it. That DM was on a powertrip, that's all there was.
I think its actually more petty than that. Based on how it was described none of the players were willing to let their character be hit with and idiot bat and walk into an obvious trap. The cleric was being punished for pointing out the trap in the first place.
@@Prinygod the saying "snitches get stitches" DOES exist for a reason (Not saying i Agree with anything the dm did, just pointing it out and how it makes sense.)
yeah, that cleric was clearly targeted for having the AUDACITY to figure out a trap that had been set up. Damn, that DM really couldn't handle someone figuring out their plan.
That happens with almost ALL DMs! That, or they just ignore any precautions and have you trigger the trap anyway because they want to see their "clever" trap work! Sounds cynical, but that is my long-time experience.
The DM had a week to figure out a way to get the story back on track, but preferred to use it to make sure the smart player was punished for figuring it out
I could tell the second the DM had the audacity to tell them up front "you'll never see the plot twist coming" That shit REEKS of someone so high on their own fumes that they really believe they're smarter than everyone else and the second someone in a position of power finds out they're not, they instantly remove that person to re-establish their imaginary place as the smartest xD
"You all died and have been raised as undead by an evil necromancer. However, one of her other zombies breaks himself and all of you free from her control. Now you have to work together to take her down." Boom! That's the game the DM ultimately wanted to play, I think. Instead of railroading he could have just cut to the chase. (targeting players is the worse sin though.)
DMNPC breaking through the domination and then rescuing all the other players is also a really bad red flag (not necessarily bad, but really hard to make work and really quick to leave a bad taste in the players' mouths if not done well). A better one is to just cut out the middle man and have the players rolls rounds of saving throws with a high DC and the first player to succeed breaks out first and can rescue the others. The more rounds it takes, the longer they remain thralls, perhaps weeks or even months. Alternatively, you could use the cleric's deity or some other party connection to rescue one or more of the party as well.
@@bendystrawz2832idk i feel if the DMNPC was a Warlock, depending on the patron they might be offended enough to interfere with the necromancer raising the warlock and helping also break the control over the party as the best option to help the warlock take out the necromancer for her offence against the patron. Like a celestial patron or even a fiend patron would not be very happy with that necromancer.
@@atk9989so patron has beef with Necromancer, leads one of their followers into Necro's trap, and uses that as a way to FINALLY be rid of their nemesis.
True that it would have been way better. A similar story happened to me in a party with friends. We didn't understand but we were supposed for the plot to be transformed into zombies. Obviously, we tried very hard to not make that happen, running a lot, etc and rolling very high, so every chance for the existing zombies to bite us was ruined. The session finished, the DM told us that it was the point ! It would have been way simplier to begin as zombies (the chase being "cinematic" for example). I guess he was trying to make things more interesting?
@@bendystrawz2832 To be honest there are many many games that have a plot hook that involves a scripted death of the main characters followed by them being revived for a second shot. The problem is that once you let the players have free reign they will usually try to avoid such scenarios meaning the only way to use this specific plot hook is to do it cinematically at the beginning of the campaign before you turn them loose to play the game. This eliminates the whole bad taste / betrayal mechanism because you set the narrative in advance so they know what to expect.
I’m pretty sure the DM was getting back at the cleric for pointing out the flaws in going to the inn hence “make me look bad as a dm, I’m going to punish you as a player.” I mean I couldn’t be the only one to see it.
Yeah but that insta -own the DM forced on the players was forgotten when it applied to his own shitty BBG (or girl) much like the actual One Ring, cursed, evil, and therefore fucking dumb as shot, brought about their own end out of fear of losing or dying. Coming in clutch Gollum, (our "play pretend" DM here being an airhead) basically could not help themselves because of the Ring's influence grabbed it from Frodo (the players and neglecting his own rules) by not jumping for joy and well you know YT doesn't like certain things be said you say what happened to him, no one can swim in lava. (the DM's awful made-up rules he forgot and/or neglected to apply to himself to make it consistent it's called rolling with it even as a DM. Your plans ARE supposed to be ruined and together you make a story from basically a web of ideas the DM had for directions and routes if players make X or Y decision for every scenario they thought of for the "story" like when you first play World of Horror, the intro sets up the world it's called world building and themes and over-arching "gloom" and "doom" to things supernaturally. Just think how funny it would have been if that necromancer's plans were foiled by the guards tucking this plum tuckered out necromancer into beddy by for a permanent dirt nap? TLDR: Players: "The chicken (rules) is fucking RAW!" Players: "What are you!" DM: "An idiot sandwich." *moans and cries in self-embarrassment. Players: "Get the fuck out of my Kitchen!" DM: "No..." Players: "U w0t m8?" DM: *Gets back to cooking but continues to screw up everything along the way determined to fuck up quite literally all things just doing their best with zero experience and braincells to remember basic cooking or Hygenics in the kitchen, never mind DMing, rules and consistency or how to run a campaign let alone make a sandwich and shit or not to make up random bull crap like an eight year old does in play that game called "Dozens" it always ends in " Yeah uh huh" "No uh uh." 'Yeah uh huh" "No uh uh".
But the cleric didn't make him look bad as a DM! The DM clearly set the scenario up strategically, and did a good job. A player figuring it out is a great way to readjust and adapt with a slightly different path. It was the one thing that DIDN'T make the DM look bad. If he'd just played along, everyone would've had a great time.
@@Arkatox yeah! Players figuring something out means they're actually paying attention to what's happening. It should be a good thing. It's not bad and it's okay to improvise or just ask for time to plan a new approach to this new path the players set out on
So, the Cleric just pretty much 1v1’d the BBEG in the THIRD SESSION while the DM is actively trying to kill them? That Cleric is an absolute gamer. Figuring out the trap earned them the DM’s ire, but also gave them unique abilities that could be used against the BBEG/DM. Using the Super-Crit Guards against the BBEG was the icing on the cake, but the fact that a simple Turn Undead could be so effective… truly, I give mad props to the Cleric player. Hope he finds another game, with a better DM.
If the DM had established all these rules at the start of the campaign, such as in a session 0, and told them "Listen, I have this story I want to share with you guys, can you work with me on the startup?" it'd probably gone a lot differently. Alternatively... if the players are okay with it, just start them as undead under the necromancer's servitude and make it the goal of the campaign to regain their free will and lost life.
@attaug Rather simple solution: the necromancer was at the location far longer. They arrive at the inn and refuse to check the catacombs? "a large ritual spell envelops the city, turning all of those within to undead slaves". Alternatively what I would've liked as a player is him just presenting the first part as a narration because there's nothing the players can actually do that has any meaning.
I was thinking just this! As long as the players are on board and know what they are getting themselves into it could be a wonderful campaign. You could start the players as a low level group of adventures who were wiped out on their first real job. Then a necromancer came along and added their mangled corpses to her growing army. For some reason (miscast spell, magical interference, maybe a mischievous deity) the players retain their awareness and freewill but are otherwise totally normal undead. Even the magical monitoring works, I think necromancers normally get the ability to see through the eyes of their undead minions if they use concentration. It could be fun to see how the players react and roll with it. Do they embrace their new role? Do they try to escape? Do they try to blend in and wait for an opportunity? So many possibilities!
The rules were obviously made on the spot to screw the cleric and players over. They would not have come up on a session zero if they had one. The plot twist def should have been discussed beforehand though.
Right, like i remember for a City of Mist game I was in the hook was each member of the crew was presently being blackmailed by a crooked police detective and he'd be the one giving us the "jobs" as we also found a way to take him down. It was totally up to the players what it was, how he got the leverage or whether it was actually true or he forged it. It also explained why the motley crew were working together. Also because of that I was able to work more of that connection into my character's backstory because I knew about him. Long story short, the big case that defined the detective's career and got him that pull he's abusing was only solved because my character helped him, accidentally making the whole mess. Course in my case the blackmail information he was using was true also. Not exactly squeaky clean my guy.
Why not just start at "you are undead minions of a necromancer trying to overthrow them and regain your humanity" if that's the story they wanted to tell?
Or start the campaign in the catacombs. Like "this is your first quest to get us started". Players are usually much more forgiving about railroading in the first session
2 месяца назад+2
@@ottokarl5427, yeah... I wouldn't even consider that railroading, it's just setting the starting scene. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Massive props to the cleric for being so patient and biding his time, I would've started memeing when i understood where the game is going and just clowned on the game
The cleric was right to feel targeted because this feels like punishment for figuring out the DM's plans. A DM should be proud of their players for figuring out something like this! Should be rooting for their players! Sure, calling an early end to the session if what you prepared just got negated is valid. So what to do if the players decide to show up at the inn? The next day they hear of a massacre at the tavern, all bodies gone. The necromancer just added a bunch of more powerful minions to her crew. Roll with the punches and let the enemies' plans continue if they're not disrupted. Railroading is never the solution. Targeting one of your players in particularly especially isn't.
It really does suck to have your carefully made and well thought out encounter just get negated by your players. I had it happen to me recently, where I had set up a really fun enciunter with a hag in the swamps, complete with stakes for the party to wanna haul ass there asap, only for them to decide (last minute) that they didn’t want to go and the’d rather deal with the consequences of that decision than fight the hag on her terms. It was an encounter I had spent 5 sessions preparing and they just decided they didn’t wanna do it and flipped the encounter around on me by luring the hag to town and laying traps. I had no choice but to roll with the new plan but I can’t say I was happy to watch my cool boss emcounter get dumped like that. I’m going to save the encounter idea for the future though.
"That's...not what I planned at all, but it makes total sense so it's cannon now" -Me, rapidly reconfiguring the story around this new development the player pointed out I'd make the necromancer give the sorcerer his free will back only to take it away at a crucial point, becoming a hollow, unspeaking undead. Maybe it takes a short and very interruptible ritual to do so and the players can maybe even try to prevent it/save him. Or let him switch sides. But some DM's aren't really flexible, which isn't inherently bad (it's really tough, of course and you can't expect everyone to have that skill - I certainly don't); you just gotta communicate that at the beginning: "I have one story to tell. I'll tell it the best I can, but I may need you to just ride along with me at times...for all our sakes."
@@bendystrawz2832 Funny enough, I was immediately thinking of an idea where the Sorcerer THINKS he has free will, and it was all just an elaborate plan by the necromancer to get an inside man to the party. Make undead, give it false sense of self, but keep constant eye through it and feed its thoughts with false info that you can use to control the party. If Sorcerer "knows" something, even he himself would not know if that knowledge is real or artificially given by the necromancer. Then at final fight, it'd come down to how much party can make sorcerer overcome the spell by reminding him of his choices, his own likes and stuff, whether he turns against them or nukes the necromancer with orbital spell bombardment.
@@bendystrawz2832I find it incredibly satisfying when the players actually think critically and don't mindlessly follow my prompts. It would also mean that they actually paid attention to the setting and the story. Nothing better than a party that interacts with the world you are building treating it like it has a sufficient depth to withstand a reasonable amount of doubt.
Sorta true, sorta not. Got 3 players with whom I can play together, build a story with them. And two who actively seek to break the story however they want. Like a football match, in one, we're a team, in another, I'm the ball.
yeah, I would have just left (politely or non-politely, not so sure lol). Major props to him for sticking with it and cleverly playing it out how he did.
on the subject of rallying players to go somewhere - my players once turned a blind eye to orcish raids on nearby villages. That is, until a crying child told the party an orc kicked her puppy - I've never seen them get so serious so fast, they went from "ha ha, look at those poor souls" to "now it's ON"
There's a group at my local game store where the DM has occasionally said "If I ever need them to do something for the plot I just have a tall brunette ask them to do it." Sometimes you just gotta know what makes the party tick.
I had a some what similar thing recently, port village the party was familiar with and was returning back to. The random travel event card gets pulled and it says fire. Okay sure, not expecting this but sure, I can introduces the second dragon descendent and move that story on. Through very bad roles they only realise the fire is there when there very close, talking brakes out an 2/5 wanna stop the fire, help people out etc. party's tied and down a few spell slots so not feeling to prepared to pitch in with the villagers efforts of containment. Hang on, one of the players pips up, what about (Name of party's horse that's stabled there). 2 turned to 5 the fastest I've ever seen it.
My dad had to cheat as DM at one point as he didn't realize my sister had just learned 'Dimension Door' which would have completely ruind his trap/big story moment. She said she wanted to cast it and, after looking through his notes for a few seconds, just slowly goes, "....no."
Couldn't he have said something like, "As you attempt to use dimension door, you notice glyphs light up around the room. You are unable to use that type of magic here."? Still pretty plot device-y, but gives you a reason.
@@kyuven It would make his players to think that theirs good idea will be turned against them, what's the point in taking dimension door if the spell just don't work or worse, you could think that you should take only damages spells, wich reduce drastically the implication of a casting classe in non-combat situation even tho it's a part of the game where they shine brightly, that's why I think that even "no" is a better answer than that
GM: Magic is illegal Also GM: the sorcerer rushes in and helps you fight the guards So did the spellcaster fight without magic, or is his magic acceptable? Edit: I'd also like to point out the DMPC sounds a awful lot like Sans.
Seeing as that rule and the next few ones were pulled straight from the GM's asscrack, it was probably only made to punish the cleric for putting 2 and 2 together.
The DM was writing a book and could not handle a critic. That is why the DM went on a vendetta aginst the cleric and begun to make up rules ob the spot to "punish" the cleric.
See I’ll never understand philosophies like this. I fucking LOVE IT when my party solves the puzzle, or uses the clues I gave them to predict the plot twist, because that tells me they’re so invested in my story that they’re paying attention to the smallest details. And how can you as a DM not be beyond happy when your party finally beats the boss they’ve been working towards defeating for over a year? The looks on their faces and the emotions of it all is just so heartwarming, and it’s such a beautiful moment that should be shared by everyone at the table
I *think* the problem was, there wasn't a plot twist. The cleric thought of something the DM didn't, despite it making perfect sense, and it pissed the later off.
Honestly the shadow realm duel, and the shattered armour mechanic are really interesting. It seems like this DM had a lot of great ideas, but didn't know how to react when the players went in an unexpected direction.
@@supermcspottythe ting whit homebrew is as a dm You MUST thell the players BEFORE the Game, is the Best way to aboid problems. Edit: the dm is still a moron
Having some additional special rules is fine, but it should've been disclosed before the beginning of the campaign so that everyone is on an equal foot. Unique rules, but also in world rules like magic being illegal as I'm sure some players would should not to play a magic based character as they wouldn't want to deal with that
He is straight up, the MOST badass Cleric there is, no questions asked, actual genius, and not only did he outsmart the DM, he did it all with actual style, that line at the end, hits HARD, actual genius
"Having a plan" is, in my opinion, one of the worst things a DM can do. The *villain* has a plan, and the party's whole reason for being is to subvert that villainous plan... The DM is just there to facilitate that struggle as a storyteller, not to pick a side. If a party saw an obvious trap I was setting for them that far ahead I'd be proud! Now they have a chance to turn the tables, and come at it from another angle. It makes them feel like they've accomplished something, and can serve as a reason for the bad guys to escalate more quickly, as they perceive the party as a genuine threat, instead of just an easy target. Ta-da: plot development. A lot of bad DM issues stem from them not being impartial in the story; treating DMPCs like main characters, playing favorites with certain party members, or taking blows to the villain or their plan for the campaign personally instead of recognizing them as exactly what the party is supposed to be doing. I know what the villains *want* to do, but if they do or don't succeed isn't my problem, it's the party's. And even from the laziest point of view, if my party bypasses an encounter, so what? I still have it statted, and they don't know what they missed, so I can reincorporate it later if I just don't want the effort to go to waste. Sometimes the difference between a railroad and an 'open world' game is they can't see the tracks, not that there aren't any.
Hell yeah. DMs who "have a plan" should write a book instead. The point of playing a pen and paper game is to share narrative control, not so that the DM can play out their novel script.
@@pakkazull8370 As it happens, I *am* also a writer, and completely agree. TTRPGs are shared universes, with each person having creative control to an extent. Honestly, that's what I find exciting about them - I get to write a story and also *not know* what's going to happen in it, at the same time! A step further might be games where the players trade off being DM; say, one player DMs for [BBEG #1] and another for #2 or for a side arc. That would probably make some horror story DM's heads explode just thinking about it, but if everyone is on the same page that you don't 'win' D&D, but enjoy it, I can attest it works quite well. Has done on my end for nearly 11 years, so far. And, if I ever DID put players in one of my stories... I'd either have them faaar away from the plot, and just in the same world, or write it off as an alt-universe and let them break it, because who cares? Maybe they'll even give me some good ideas.
Mistake to never make as a DM: Tell your players that there will be a plottwist. If you tell them, they'll await it every second of the game which can kill the gameflow.
Most dnd stories I hear that have good plot twists are more a result of the players just not picking up on something until the reveal moment. You know stuff like 'You never checked insight on this NPC to find out they were actually evil the whole time and you just trusted them to a fault'
DM did the worst thing he could do: Take away player control. They decided they didn't want to go to the necromancer yet because they weren't ready. Next session, the DM railroads them to the inn where the necromancer is? Then, the DM took away armor for the sake of "realism"? Screw that. Not disclosing stuff that should be considered common knowledge, like laws that invoke the death penalty? Absolutely absurd. Then trying to rewrite his own rules so his own BBEG doesn't get killed by the guards? Cleric was absolutely being targeted the entire time, all because he used logic to try and stop the group from going into a losing battle. The DM did this because he wasn't prepared for anything outside of what he had planned, and didn't have any ideas for improvising. His story might have been good, but that doesn't mean he's not a terrible DM. He could learn to be better, for sure, but as of this story, I'm flat out saying that this dude is a terrible DM.
In the very beginning, one of the DMs boasts is about his plans for the "plottwist at the end", and i thought this is kind of a red flag for a DnD game immediately. While not necessarily a bad thing to have ideas for late game story elements, it just really feels like a story they already written and finished in their head.
I wouldn't say the DM was "inexperienced and petty" as a "lifelong DM", they are just bad and living proof that experience doesn't necessarily make you good. Any DM who tells you at the beginning of the campaign that the story and plot twist will be great should be a major red flag that the campaign will be heavily railroaded. Anyway, if I ever had a bad DM, I would totally stick it out like the cleric did and find my fun in figuring out how to outsmart them or just seeing where this DM is going to go...
I was okay with the DM till the Guards showed up and it all went down hill from there. I can hand wave off the Railroading to the inn it sucks but w/e, but the point that lost me was for the players who were delivery people in the city not knowing that the law forbids magic and it is punishable by death was a step to far. This is something the players would have had to know to even be part of the city. The DM has some interesting ideas. I don't know I think Session 2 is where I would have quit, but good on cleric holding onto the uno reverse card and sticking it out to shove it in the face of the DM.
Im sitting here listening and i can come up with like 4 different motivations for getting the party into the catacombs. This DM had a week and had to strong arm the players with BS rulings. Also the DM learned the hard way why crits arent instant downs in any edition of D&D (or any other system for that matter unless they handle health differently)
I kinda like the idea of crits executing low hit point enemies, but the odds of rolling a crit that gets an enemy low enough to execute but not kill just makes it so that it's almost never used. Maybe if you crit an enemy at or below a certain CR, it can be an insta-down (like against zombies/skeletons, but not the BBEG).
Honestly, until the DM started targeting the Cleric, he had my sympathy. The players poked a single hole in his story that derailed the flow. Yeah, a better DM would think of a new hook, but if I was at this table, I would have talked to him afterwards and given him a mulligan. Let him lead us to the Inn as planned, which the party was all on board with until the Cleric pointed out the inconsistency. But then he childishly tried to kill off the Cleric, and yeah, all understanding goes out the window.
I'm surprised how shortsighted it was of the DM to send Cleric to the city guards. Guess he just forgot about the rule he made up about magic being a death sentence. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, with how little DM thought through anything he did.
All respect for your leniency on this DM, but even if you won't condemn them as a shit DM, I sure will. A """"lifelong"""" DM should know better than to force a railroady story on a party they're new to without informing them of that intent. When I get in the car to go "party" with someone, I'm not gonna be happy to learn it's their six year old niece's birthday.
2:00 Bro already ruined it by announcing it. Plot twists are best received when unexpected. Bad story telling right off the bat before even a session 0 is already a red flag.
The thing I don’t understand when it comes to this DM, is since apparently the zombie DMPC had nothing to do with this twist that he was working on, so him, turning on the party was never an issue to him, he should’ve gave his precious character some sort of magic item, some sort of keepsake, but the necromancer just didn’t bother to remove. That is the reason why he isn’t following her orders. Boom. You have a reason why a character is not following and established rule. You also then have something put in place that if you want him to turn on the party unexpectedly, have a necromancer take away the item. You have to have a reason for why something doesn’t work the way that it normally would. If you light a candle in the flame burns cold. You can’t just say: “well that must just be the power of friendship.” It might be because of a rune that’s carved at the base of the candle, or maybe you can use detect magic, and find out the candle holder is enchanted. The guy literally had a week to figure that out. Instead, he keeps thinking that the DMPC just hasn’t saved the party enough. I personally made a character who is revenant. His entire town was captured by a necromancer, and everybody was experimented on, including him. And the reason why he is a revenant and not a zombie is, because whatever experiment that was being used on him failed so his body was left to rot. People seem to forget that magic has rules, but magic can also be the answer that changes rules.
That DM is like how my friend and I used to RP over text when we were like 13. Shit happens for no reason, people do things that makes no sense, someone completely ignores something the other person said...
Honestly easy fix for the sorcerer. He doesnt realize he's controlled and thinks he has his own free will. Sure the party wont trust him but have even he question the info and the plan and suggest that since they now know it's a trap to try and trap the necromancer Trap fails, battle ensues, have sorcerer attacking necromancer and he falls and gets kidnapped. Necromancer taking him back to the catacombs. Party then has to decide if sorcerer was actually an ally or not and choose if they want to head into the catacombs to find him.
Had the DM rolled with what the cleric said, that would have been an awesome plot twist, and he would have looked fucking huge brained. Like "Ah...Yeesss. I didn't expect you to put it all together this quickly. You're playing right into her devious plot!"
Disagree. He is a terrible dm. He took away agency and then deliberately targeted the cleric purely out of spit for predicting a planned trap. Good ideas for a story shouldn't give him any kind of pass for being mean spirited and cheating by making up unspecified rules on the spot, changing them when it suited him, and wanted to break all of them to give himself the upper hand, not to mention just flat out playing the story out unfairly so the players can never gain any kind of win. That's a terrible dm. Just imagine what he's going to be like when he gets his first female player and then keeps insisting her character dates his dmpc, and she says no.
Pride and pettiness. When the DM thinks winning means getting the party to do what you want and being the power house. Cleric did not play by his railroading rules and so he went on a power trip to punish the cleric. Then it royally bit him in the ass. NEVER be prideful and petty against your Players.
I have to disagree this has all the hallmarks of bad DMing: railroading, dmpc, removal of player agency, targeting players out of spite, changing rules and lore *to* further punish players, godmoding villains, etc. In fact the only thing no one complained about was the story synopsis. The DM wrote a possibly decent story that the players were not allowed to interact with only forced to experience.
Completely agree about being forced to do something. I'd consider leaving if that the "you're at the place everyone said they don't want to be" happened to me. The magic being punishable by death even though it's a law there's no way they shouldn't know BS is when I'd leave. If he doesn't respect the players, why should I respect his attempt to run a game?
Honestly, id literally just leave as soon as my pc is in a situation i didnt consent to them being in. Props to that cleric for not only putting up with obvious harassment but finding a way to beat the DM at his own unfair game. I think he was a step ahead during the delivery run and knew he'd never be allowed to win, he just wanted to get the OP guards who hate magic to fight the undead/necromancer for him. Once he forced the DM to play it out he'd essentially won. Forcing the DM to quit after not following his own stupid rules and essentially reveal the neceomancer has plot armor was the icing on the cake
At the end, I knew the GM was going to eat his own words, but my first thought when the guards ignored the Necro was "Oh, they're in league with her. That explains how she was able to bring an "impenetrable mob" of skeletons onto the streets without being challenged. On the other hand, the PC's outsmarting the bad guy in this fashion would have been super satisfying, and the story could have run on from there if the GM had been willing to just roll with it.
I get the DM's point of view. I'm writing for a game, and the main story I'm writing is fairly linear. However, the players have reasons to follow the main story (they decided early on that their goal coincides with the main story), and they STILL do things I don't account for in my writing. When that happens, I ask for a moment to consider how things go from here, then once that's done, react according to the players' actions. One player described my GMing as 'that moment in Willy Wonka where it looks like Wonka's going to fall, but then does a cartwheel'.
The part of "the necromancer was in town for longer, why do something only NOW" was easily fixable with an easy roll so a character figures out it was someting like the day before full moon or new moon which is needed for the ritual, thus explaining the time limit and constrictions. For all the other things, there were plenty of creative ways to push the players towards the plot without forcing them with rules made un on the spot. ie "As you inspect the undead before you to try to understand if you can trust him or not, you notice a shining object on him" *rolls" "as you inspect it, you realize it's a magic item which grants immunity from being controlled" or some bullshit like this. I made this up on the spot, the DM had a WEEK to come up with a way to give credit to his OC's words. But seeing all these bad DMs it makes me think that I should try my hand on it too. I can't be worse than them...
Red flags from the start, edgelord undead aasimar sorcerer DMPC, also why the fuck would an evil necromancer just be hanging out at a _tavern?_ That's the _worst_ trap ever. Like you said, kidnap someone and drag em into the catacombs, classic bait for a trap, nice and on theme, makes the party invested... Also this necromancer can just have... whole mobs of skeletons just _show up_ in the middle of town and yet the people have been going about their business unaware this chick's been tossing bones all over the city? Oh and she sees the future. And can control minds. And fight on the mental plane. Yet she really has a big ol hateboner for ONE GUY doing some UPS jobs.
Honestly the DM could have done much better as sometimes you learn your players are great writers: Session 1 ends with the DMNPC entering dramatically saying they heard that. Session 2 could have built off with a twist where the Sorcerer fights the party and after the defeat it significantly weakens the necromancer allowing the party enough time to come up with an original counter-plan without any railroading.
@@itsgenguy7275 Yup. That's the entire point of a TTRPG. If you just want a linear story, go play a video game or write a novel. I will never understand the crazy railroad DMs out there that come with a preplanned plot and expect the players to just blindly go from A to B to C.
@@taragnor Hard agree. While imo theres nothing wrong with having an intended set of stories for the game to follow through, (because without an intended route theres nothing to base off or deviate from) it gets out of hand when it goes from 'Intended Path' to 'The Path'
When things go exactly as planned, I as a DM take that as a bad sign. That's the sort of thing that makes me question whether I've been railroading my players, and I pay extra close attention to them in the next session to see if they're still invested.
That is pretty crazy though. I think I missed it, but were the guards working for the necromancer? Cause a current me, would be tempted to leave the town to its fate. Also this reminds me of a time i got either diseased or poisoned, and I wanted to dispel it as a paladin, and we ended up ruling it as storyline whichever, and my class skill couldn't remove it. As Pitch Meetings would say, "so the script can happen"
The guards were not working working for the necromancer. That's why, in the end, the players were able to force the guards and necromancer to fight. The necromancer was not aligned with the guards and was using magic, which was punishable by death. I also presumed the town was aware of this necromancer threat, but I don't think it was actually stated. It _seems_ like the guards and the necromancer were in cahoots because of how the DM ran both HARD targeting the cleric in a scenario where the cleric was absolutely not the immediate threat (or priority) for either side.
Red Flags went off in my head as soon as the DM said there was a terrific twist coming... how could he know that unless he was planning on severely rail-roading the adventure?
6:30 Imo the best way to do this from the player's POV is to continue doing what you would have done. Either tell the DM that's not what your character does or tell them that you leave the inn to do the thing you want. Sometimes this kind of playstyle is toxic, but when the DM is forcing you into an obvious trap, it's entirely valid to have your character walk away.
The game was over at 9:08 when the DM practically changed the laws of reality when he inserted a new law of land, no PC was aware of. At that point I would have left the game.
Quick fix for the DM. Have the Sorcerer "Drop," the illusion, saying that the Necromancer didn't realize that he had Deathward placed upon him by the Cleric who sent him to fight the necromancer first, and that he had a ring of spell-storing and subtle spell, which allowed him to cast disguise-self as an undead. His story wasn't 100% accurate, but it was close enough to trick any prying ears. Since he was confident that they were safe, he was able to "Drop," the illusion and tell them the truth. Now, the rule isn't broken, since it isn't an undead who somehow has free will even though he's supposed to do the necromancer's bidding, it's an aasimar pretending to be undead and spying on the necromancer.
I would have introduced the sorcerer as a smart crafty schemer after his cover is blown. During the ensuing battle the anybody is marked. Arcana gets the info and the team needs to find a way to break it while random undead skirmishes happen here and there. Rub all the weird or offensive home rules and its a fun first quest
I've had things that I over looked like the sorcerer not supposed to be a traitor and the players thinking they are for very logical reasons. When the players point out that the necromancer can control all thralls to eachother I would've internally just been like "crap I forgot about that part. new plan, sorc is a traitor and upset they figured it out." Also the cleric using the gaurds against the necro is amazing. In my last campaign my players outsmarted me on multiple occasions. Sure it can be frustrating but i'm also so freaking proud of them. Use those beautiful brains!
Exactly. As a DM I love when my players outsmart me. For one, it is a more interesting story if they are the ones driving it and for another, I like to have my improve skills tested to try to keep things flowing.
@glassberg5018 improv is half of what makes me love DMing. Especially when they do something so freaking off the wall crazy that I've got to end the session early to ponder the consequences. I've had that happen only once but I'm so proud of my batch of gremlins
I've learned the magic words of "wow I was not expecting that, just do some RP and give me a minute to think" instead of huffing and puffing and insisting they play my story@@Beatrix7979
Personally, I see no reason that "the undead are raised to do the necromancer's bidding" should be regarded as a hard rule, with zero chance for the magic to sometimes fail for one reason or another. There's a lot of reason to doubt the sorcerer, but them retaining their free will hardly seems impossible.
Considering that they were supposedly a 'lifelong DM' I'd have to disagree and say that they were a bad DM. It doesn't mean that they can't improve and become a good one or that this wasn't just a rare bad campaign for them but in this campaign they made a lot of pretty big mistakes. 1. Failed to mention rules/intentions of the game beforehand (and that's assuming that they didn't make some of it up on the spot for #3) 2. Were completely inflexible with the story and from the sounds of it, wanted to punish players (aka Cleric) for ruining their railroad. 3. Singled out and targeted another player. DM vs Player mentality is *never* good unless you have a cool story in mind where it's intentional. 4. The biggest flaw. Hypocrisy. They used the rules to screw over Cleric while trying to sweep those terrible rules under the rug the second it would negatively impact themselves.
This is why I always go over ground stuff before sessions happen and I state if a monster can do it so can the players if the players can so can the monster. That way no one can complain you want introduce a hombrew race or class cool you may however do know that it is now apart of the world and you may have to face it or you might not but it does exist. Keeps everything on even playing fields.
If you wanted to have the sorcerer not being under the necromancers control, you could say something like this: I was raised by this monster, but he never controlled me. I was an experiment to see what would happen if one with celestial blood was reanimated and study the results. I played along. Being forced to serve him and do unspeakable acts. I bided my time until his observations laxed. I took the opportunity to escape. Thankfully, i had plenty of time to practice my patience and was able to wait long enough for someone to come to this city with the ability to help. I waited all this time for you. Please, help me
I’ll never understand the petty DM behavior. He clearly created a great world with an interesting twist and a logical through line. The fact the cleric figured it out is a compliment to his world imo. Rather than turning petty, he should have been excited to have someone so engaged in his story.
It started with a great twist. The undead could have been created and given the illusion of free will, but was inadvertently working for the necromancer. When the party finds out it adds a new layer of story telling to work with and if they don't then the story continues as normal.
The problem with having ONE super good, exciting story, is that you treasure it. DM kind of didn't want to be flexible about his magnum opus. I love how the Cleric kind of guesses the plot and the enemy's strategies, such a great move. Still, can't ignore how lucky he was to even get the cart to the Guard Fort.
This situation happened to me too, back in college. We ended one session debating if we should continue with our pre-planned idea to storm a warehouse, because new information had sprung up right at the end that threw what we knew for a loop, and in the next session, the DM started it with us already approaching the warehouse. We argued with the DM for several minutes, until one of the players-- who was silent up until this point in this session-- just stood up and left the table. "Where are you going?" we asked. "Home." "Why?" "Because I came here to play my character, and not have my character be played for me." A few minutes of silence, and we all followed the first player, leaving the DM behind. We were at the DM's house.
"What was stopping them from doing their plan before now" is a question I always ask myself when making villains. If I had a necromancer in town that the players had to stop, I'd have the reason she didn't execute her plan yet be like.... needs to be a harvest moon or something
I feel like there's a fair number of DMs out there who try to pivot or alter their plans when the players figure them out. It's important to remember that it's okay if the players figure out what you're planning, that's what makes it fun for a lot of players. You don't have to alter the outcome to keep things fresh but you can still throw in a complication or two. One of my favorite DM "tricks" is when the players figure out my plans or bypass a major encounter, I'll dramatically throw my notes into the garbage and tell them that I have to wing it from here on out. They usually feel pretty satisfied with themselves.
I feel as though if I was the GM, and I'd made this whole edge aasimar undead spy, forgetting what I'd said earlier about the lich having complete control over the undead she raised, I'd basically be immediately shifting gears behind the GM screen, like "oh right, I hadn't even planned for the aasimar to be a plant, but they are now!" And essentially congratulate the players on seeing through the lich's deceptive ploy.
they figured out the trap, that dosn't mean it's over, like, let the players have some agency, might need to end the session early if it's that far off the og plans, but they could capture and attempt to interrogate the undead, he tries to escape/inform the necromancer, who may now see them as a more serious threat, and come after them, or the players may come up with a counter-plan, ad-lib those bits and get an idea what they want to do going forward to prepare for next time seriously, how hard is it to be like, well im not telling you if you are right or not, but this is a new direction either way, so let me know what you guys are thinking about doing so i can prep stuff for it
I don’t know, the cruel, focused targeting of one guy for multiple sessions, all for the “crime” of figuring out the story, seems condemnable to me. :/
Woooh, Love a comment roasting the DM for being bad & going the 'f around and find out' as spam & adds. What a wonderful community you have. Sorry if I think one of the dumbest things you can do is actively & without thinking make up rules to target players as it will be used against you. Gotta say though. Totally inclusive of you. There is a difference between 'railroaded' and just plain abusive. The DM f'd around and found out. brought the BBEG out, to personally torment and target the players even against the dice roles and violates player autonomy so hard it almost considered s*xual. That's the kind of DM that will only ever be sub-par and the reason isn't because of world or creative ability, it's because they will actively panic & not keep track of their own actions or 'hooks' used against the players or on the world. They are the kind of player that others don't like. Will bend everything to get what they want, but when it comes to the benefit of others.... Just silence and attempting to go by unnoticed. I'm all in for harsh, railroaded, tragic, and even 'this is going to end poorly no matter what' stories.... but ya know the difference between them and what he dm did.. They actually planned it out and it was always crystal clear either OOC or in the setup that it was going to roll a certain way.
I'm gonna differ from Crabby, here. I feel like the guy was a mediocre DM with some good ideas. If you have extra mechanics like the crit down or armor break, you let players know while they're making the characters. Also, a setting with magic outlawed differs from a standard DND setting, so part of the setup and prologue should be making sure everyone is on board. If someone wanted to play the scion of a famous sorcerer bloodline, for instance, it would be completely different in this setting. Honestly, though, his worst affront was trying to grudge kill the cleric. Being targeted like that is unfun. Maybe there is hope for the guy, but he needs to take this as a learning experience.
I don't know why, but while listening to this, a terrible joke popped into my head. Daniel: Hey, nice to meet you. Name's Daniel Masters. Mike: Hey Dan. That's a cool name, you our new DM? Daniel: (stares intently) Roll initiative, mother f*cker!
Some of my favorite moments as a DM are when my players totally screw up my stories. We were doing a 40k Inquisition game. The players were interrogators (inquisitors in training) sent to a planet that had rumors of alien corruption. When the players got there and questioned the planetary governor he of course denied the claims that they'd had interactions with aliens, but began to plead with the interrogators that the planet is a factory world and thus can't make its own food, and that for some reason the shipments of food weren't coming anymore. The governor was a shockingly down-to-earth man for the position he held. The players decided to "roleplay as loyal interrogators" and basically said "not my problem, I'm here to weed out heresy." They go back to the landing dock, send their landing ship to orbit and hide. Soon enough an alien barge comes out and lands on the platform and some rather benign aliens walked out and began unloading what was OBVIOUSLY charity food for the people. I was trying to put the players in a moral dilemma. They didn't know anything about the aliens, so maybe this was some sort of corrupt poison or a way to infect the population, but really it just looked like these people desperately needed food and the aliens were altruistic. It was supposed to lead into an investigation that would flip them back and forth between the "this isn't a problem, just leave it and let the people eat" vs "this is a horrible idea, and this planet is going to be the cause of a horrible heresy." But the players gave zero ****s about the moral dilemma and proceeded immediately to snipe the planetary governor and the aliens on the platform, confiscate the food with zero intention of determining if it was a hazard or not, and to top it off they called in a favor to have some imperial navy ships blockade the planet to prevent future contact. Then they left the planet and looked at me like "that was a fun intro, when does the campaign start." They had just left an entire planet to starve and had zero qualms about it. I couldn't help but bust out laughing. It was incredible.
I like the new sounds you used in-between the story and the interjected commentary in this and the last video. As much as I liked the crab scurrying sounds they were a little long. This is quick and to the point, getting you right back into the story. I hope you keep the sounds
These anecdotes are wild. I haven't played D&D since highschool, and we never had anyone we didn't know join the story. Social Media didn't even exist yet... that ages me. 😂 It was the same party for years, so I never had these kinds of negative experiences. The Ballad of Malus the Edgelord blew my mind...
@daviddaugherty2816 maybe, but I would think they'd be more likely to undersell they're ability not oversell it. Either way we can't really confirm that and I think it's much more likely that Duke just misremembered that part and assumed they were inexperienced.
My players ruin my DM plans all the time. I just have to be good at improv and I have a few generic adventure books on the side that may inspire a last minute 5 room dungeon or something. I have found that sometimes the players, through their plot crushing, come up with better plot twists than I ever could. Their own paranoia can be a great plot seed. Get off the railroad and go with the flow. Sometimes the session ends early but at least the players keep coming back. Also, occasionally ask the players what they liked and didn't like about the last session/adventure. I have the most fun when the players are having fun....really.
Thing is the additional 3d4 of damage could have been a cool way of describing a critical hit or ability the NPC had. But instead was blatantly a "I want to kill you now" lol. Nice story as always dude!
The dm probably could have saved it if they had sorcerer attack the party and before he died say that the necromancer would bring the dead back to life and start attacking the city if they didn’t come fight her Edit: I swear I wrote this before crit crab said it and I don’t mean to steal ideas or anything like that
This story has actually inspired a new campaign idea in me, a group of couriers working for a delivery service and they travel to another kingdom from their town to give royal tribute to the king. There's been news going around the the prince seems to have run off and disappeared but once they deliver the package all that's in it is the princes severed head. Queue plot, I think I'm gonna flesh this out now, thank you bad dm 😂
I absolutely HATE the idea of 'mAgIC iS ILleGAL!' trope, unless like, you are meant to be a criminal in the campaign actively going against the law who actively suppresses magic. Like, I understand that guards would rather prefer casters not flagrantly use magic in the open but being so uptight about magic in a setting where dragons, elves, goblins and fantastical bullshit just seem very dumb to me. Anyways, I have ideas on how to railroad the party into the catacombs, or at least have the necromancer hunt them down and kill them: 1. Have the Necromancer kidnap an important figure, or hell even a party member to force them to go in and save their comrade. 2. First, remove the magic is illegal bullshit. The guards have realized something odd going on with undead skulking the streets. They have enlisted the help of adventurers to solve their undead problem and you have been tasked to go in the catacombs. The pay is exceptionally good. 3. Or worst come to worst, have a 'rocks fall on you everyone dies' moment. Because the necromancer threat has been ignored for very long, she has managed to raise the entire catacombs and ransacks the entire village. The onslaught will be an almost impossible battle, even with the guards helping.
Honestly, the Undead Sorcerer repeating his backstory when his loyalty is questioned is actually a great storytelling. The Sorcerer does not really have its free will, so when the party does not go along, he repeats the lines the Necromancer fed to him.
Unfortunately, the Dungeon Master did not realize he accidentally created a better story than what he originally thought of.
Yea, that the Sorcerer is under control of the Necro, but himself don't realise it, thinking he got free will. (getting Terminator 4 vibes)
I would have added a will save with a DC low enough for at least one party member to pass and tell anyone who passed that this undead creature just tried to charm them.
You guys are such good storytellers, you can turn the DM being an idiot into a compelling plot point.
Give yourself a treat today.
It's like a spam bot trying to not be called out.
Can you imagine if this kept happening? I feel like the DM was too wrapped up in his story to ever let this happen, but imagine if he kept making bad decisions to punish the players, but they kept taking it as excellent storytelling (to the DM’s utter bewilderment).
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse!" Well it kind of is when YOU MAKE THE LAWS UP ON THE SPOT!
I claim qualified immunity.
You can't call someone ignorant if they had no way of knowing something. "Just look at thise ignorant fucking first graders, don't even know what the mitochondria is. So ignorant"
Also that was kind ignoring that their complain wasn't "I didn't know in-game," it was "YOU NEVER TOLD US THAT BEFORE!"
reminds me of that one episode of Star Trek TNG where the Edo were ready to kill Wesley for accidentally breaking a law THAT HE WAS NOT INFORMED OF!
it is wrong to punish someone for ACCIDENTALLY breaking a law they were not properly notified of prior to that violation of it, ESPECIALLY if the punishment is a death sentence
@@keeganlafferty1395 Well, in that situation, they probably _could_ have informed themselves.
he kept targeting a player and making up rules to kill them. He is not a bad dm, he is an awful dm.
Yeah I don't get Critcrab's take on this one. And people talking about the shattering armor rule baffles me. Unless weapons have an enchantment (which would violate the no magic ass pull law) that transmutes steel to glass, steel doesn't shatter like that.
And why target the character that is your "spy".
he tried to take a bishop with his queen, but the rook took her out.
Im suprised he didn't throw the sun itself at him
@@typowynieogar he wants to keep up the illusion of fairness, but he's still smart enough to know that will chase off his friends.
As soon as the cleric says, "I use Turn Undead." I cracked up. That is such a perfect response to that railroading bullshit.
Just started the video, idk the context but it’s funny to think “you WILL talk and or fight”
“Nuh uh”
I have an idea for a twist on “Turn Undead”. Instead of making the undead run away from you, if you happen to be grave or death cleric it could instead allow you to use your god’s power to temporarily bind the undead enemies to your will for the duration of the fight. At the end of the fight the grave/death cleric could then release them from their curse of undeath
@@brianvance1178Evil Clerics (and Neutral ones) could either Turn (or destroy) Undead as normal, or Control them for the duration of Turning (or permanently if they would be destroyed).
@@brianvance1178 I love this idea! Do you mind if I use it?
@@stephaniejenkins7822 sure
There are two things to remember as a DM…
1. No plan survives contact with the enemy…
2. The enemy also makes plans….
3. The dice are one of the enemies.
Ahem, begin Cheese Aquisition...
DMing is the plan meme:
1: make the plan
2: execute the plan
3: expect the plan to go off the rails
4: …… throw away the plan!
To quote that one french gal from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance… “I am A stranger who has found an even stranger war, I’ve finally found what IIIIIIIIIIII’ve, been LOOOO, king for!”
4.these aren’t your enemies, they are your friends. Have fun and don’t be a POS like this DM.
You are far too generous with this DM, they were clearly trying to punish the cleric for not falling in line.
Yea, a DM punishing a player who's too perceptive and smart, is not a good DM.
Inventing rules on the get go only to punish the players for not playing the story exactly how he plans, is a bad DM.
Sure, I'm also not good at improvising and would have my troubles with that, but to handle it this way? No. And do I remember it correctly that this was supposed to be a "lifelong DM" whatever that means, but it should at least mean they're experienced enough to do something properly, and this wasn't it.
That DM was on a powertrip, that's all there was.
Came to say the same. Everything else is fine I would not have cared but targeting one player is bullying.
I think its actually more petty than that. Based on how it was described none of the players were willing to let their character be hit with and idiot bat and walk into an obvious trap. The cleric was being punished for pointing out the trap in the first place.
Crab is entertaining, but their commentary is room temperature at best.
@@Prinygod the saying "snitches get stitches" DOES exist for a reason (Not saying i Agree with anything the dm did, just pointing it out and how it makes sense.)
yeah, that cleric was clearly targeted for having the AUDACITY to figure out a trap that had been set up. Damn, that DM really couldn't handle someone figuring out their plan.
I love it when my players figure me out, honestly. Shows that they're interested enought to make theories about the campaign.
Also, based on the pot twist revealed, the Cleric was RIGHT!
That happens with almost ALL DMs! That, or they just ignore any precautions and have you trigger the trap anyway because they want to see their "clever" trap work! Sounds cynical, but that is my long-time experience.
The DM had a week to figure out a way to get the story back on track, but preferred to use it to make sure the smart player was punished for figuring it out
I could tell the second the DM had the audacity to tell them up front "you'll never see the plot twist coming" That shit REEKS of someone so high on their own fumes that they really believe they're smarter than everyone else
and the second someone in a position of power finds out they're not, they instantly remove that person to re-establish their imaginary place as the smartest xD
"You all died and have been raised as undead by an evil necromancer. However, one of her other zombies breaks himself and all of you free from her control. Now you have to work together to take her down." Boom! That's the game the DM ultimately wanted to play, I think. Instead of railroading he could have just cut to the chase.
(targeting players is the worse sin though.)
DMNPC breaking through the domination and then rescuing all the other players is also a really bad red flag (not necessarily bad, but really hard to make work and really quick to leave a bad taste in the players' mouths if not done well). A better one is to just cut out the middle man and have the players rolls rounds of saving throws with a high DC and the first player to succeed breaks out first and can rescue the others. The more rounds it takes, the longer they remain thralls, perhaps weeks or even months. Alternatively, you could use the cleric's deity or some other party connection to rescue one or more of the party as well.
@@bendystrawz2832idk i feel if the DMNPC was a Warlock, depending on the patron they might be offended enough to interfere with the necromancer raising the warlock and helping also break the control over the party as the best option to help the warlock take out the necromancer for her offence against the patron. Like a celestial patron or even a fiend patron would not be very happy with that necromancer.
@@atk9989so patron has beef with Necromancer, leads one of their followers into Necro's trap, and uses that as a way to FINALLY be rid of their nemesis.
True that it would have been way better. A similar story happened to me in a party with friends. We didn't understand but we were supposed for the plot to be transformed into zombies. Obviously, we tried very hard to not make that happen, running a lot, etc and rolling very high, so every chance for the existing zombies to bite us was ruined. The session finished, the DM told us that it was the point ! It would have been way simplier to begin as zombies (the chase being "cinematic" for example). I guess he was trying to make things more interesting?
@@bendystrawz2832 To be honest there are many many games that have a plot hook that involves a scripted death of the main characters followed by them being revived for a second shot. The problem is that once you let the players have free reign they will usually try to avoid such scenarios meaning the only way to use this specific plot hook is to do it cinematically at the beginning of the campaign before you turn them loose to play the game. This eliminates the whole bad taste / betrayal mechanism because you set the narrative in advance so they know what to expect.
I’m pretty sure the DM was getting back at the cleric for pointing out the flaws in going to the inn hence “make me look bad as a dm, I’m going to punish you as a player.” I mean I couldn’t be the only one to see it.
Yeah was definitely wanting to punish cleric for "spoiling" the trap. Terrible dm who is too obsessed with it going exactly how they want.
Yeah, he's clearly trying to grudge kill the cleric.
Yeah but that insta -own the DM forced on the players was forgotten when it applied to his own shitty BBG (or girl) much like the actual One Ring, cursed, evil, and therefore fucking dumb as shot, brought about their own end out of fear of losing or dying. Coming in clutch Gollum, (our "play pretend" DM here being an airhead) basically could not help themselves because of the Ring's influence grabbed it from Frodo (the players and neglecting his own rules) by not jumping for joy and well you know YT doesn't like certain things be said you say what happened to him, no one can swim in lava. (the DM's awful made-up rules he forgot and/or neglected to apply to himself to make it consistent it's called rolling with it even as a DM. Your plans ARE supposed to be ruined and together you make a story from basically a web of ideas the DM had for directions and routes if players make X or Y decision for every scenario they thought of for the "story" like when you first play World of Horror, the intro sets up the world it's called world building and themes and over-arching "gloom" and "doom" to things supernaturally. Just think how funny it would have been if that necromancer's plans were foiled by the guards tucking this plum tuckered out necromancer into beddy by for a permanent dirt nap?
TLDR: Players: "The chicken (rules) is fucking RAW!"
Players: "What are you!"
DM: "An idiot sandwich." *moans and cries in self-embarrassment.
Players: "Get the fuck out of my Kitchen!"
DM: "No..."
Players: "U w0t m8?"
DM: *Gets back to cooking but continues to screw up everything along the way determined to fuck up quite literally all things just doing their best with zero experience and braincells to remember basic cooking or Hygenics in the kitchen, never mind DMing, rules and consistency or how to run a campaign let alone make a sandwich and shit or not to make up random bull crap like an eight year old does in play that game called "Dozens" it always ends in " Yeah uh huh" "No uh uh." 'Yeah uh huh" "No uh uh".
But the cleric didn't make him look bad as a DM! The DM clearly set the scenario up strategically, and did a good job. A player figuring it out is a great way to readjust and adapt with a slightly different path. It was the one thing that DIDN'T make the DM look bad. If he'd just played along, everyone would've had a great time.
@@Arkatox yeah! Players figuring something out means they're actually paying attention to what's happening. It should be a good thing. It's not bad and it's okay to improvise or just ask for time to plan a new approach to this new path the players set out on
So, the Cleric just pretty much 1v1’d the BBEG in the THIRD SESSION while the DM is actively trying to kill them? That Cleric is an absolute gamer. Figuring out the trap earned them the DM’s ire, but also gave them unique abilities that could be used against the BBEG/DM. Using the Super-Crit Guards against the BBEG was the icing on the cake, but the fact that a simple Turn Undead could be so effective… truly, I give mad props to the Cleric player. Hope he finds another game, with a better DM.
If the DM had established all these rules at the start of the campaign, such as in a session 0, and told them "Listen, I have this story I want to share with you guys, can you work with me on the startup?" it'd probably gone a lot differently. Alternatively... if the players are okay with it, just start them as undead under the necromancer's servitude and make it the goal of the campaign to regain their free will and lost life.
Set expectations, people are more willing to do something you want if you can at least explain what it is you want to do.
@attaug Rather simple solution: the necromancer was at the location far longer. They arrive at the inn and refuse to check the catacombs? "a large ritual spell envelops the city, turning all of those within to undead slaves". Alternatively what I would've liked as a player is him just presenting the first part as a narration because there's nothing the players can actually do that has any meaning.
I was thinking just this! As long as the players are on board and know what they are getting themselves into it could be a wonderful campaign.
You could start the players as a low level group of adventures who were wiped out on their first real job. Then a necromancer came along and added their mangled corpses to her growing army.
For some reason (miscast spell, magical interference, maybe a mischievous deity) the players retain their awareness and freewill but are otherwise totally normal undead. Even the magical monitoring works, I think necromancers normally get the ability to see through the eyes of their undead minions if they use concentration.
It could be fun to see how the players react and roll with it. Do they embrace their new role? Do they try to escape? Do they try to blend in and wait for an opportunity? So many possibilities!
The rules were obviously made on the spot to screw the cleric and players over. They would not have come up on a session zero if they had one. The plot twist def should have been discussed beforehand though.
Right, like i remember for a City of Mist game I was in the hook was each member of the crew was presently being blackmailed by a crooked police detective and he'd be the one giving us the "jobs" as we also found a way to take him down. It was totally up to the players what it was, how he got the leverage or whether it was actually true or he forged it. It also explained why the motley crew were working together.
Also because of that I was able to work more of that connection into my character's backstory because I knew about him. Long story short, the big case that defined the detective's career and got him that pull he's abusing was only solved because my character helped him, accidentally making the whole mess. Course in my case the blackmail information he was using was true also. Not exactly squeaky clean my guy.
Why not just start at "you are undead minions of a necromancer trying to overthrow them and regain your humanity" if that's the story they wanted to tell?
Because that'd be a good idea.
@@MrGamernovaand DMs like this rarely have a good idea
Or start the campaign in the catacombs. Like "this is your first quest to get us started". Players are usually much more forgiving about railroading in the first session
@@ottokarl5427, yeah... I wouldn't even consider that railroading, it's just setting the starting scene. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because then the "plot twist" couldn't happen D:
Massive props to the cleric for being so patient and biding his time, I would've started memeing when i understood where the game is going and just clowned on the game
Tbh me too
You just gotta give DMs like this enough rope sometimes
The cleric IQ was off the charts. Figuring out the trap and then making his own fir the dm.
The cleric was right to feel targeted because this feels like punishment for figuring out the DM's plans.
A DM should be proud of their players for figuring out something like this! Should be rooting for their players! Sure, calling an early end to the session if what you prepared just got negated is valid.
So what to do if the players decide to show up at the inn? The next day they hear of a massacre at the tavern, all bodies gone. The necromancer just added a bunch of more powerful minions to her crew.
Roll with the punches and let the enemies' plans continue if they're not disrupted.
Railroading is never the solution. Targeting one of your players in particularly especially isn't.
It really does suck to have your carefully made and well thought out encounter just get negated by your players. I had it happen to me recently, where I had set up a really fun enciunter with a hag in the swamps, complete with stakes for the party to wanna haul ass there asap, only for them to decide (last minute) that they didn’t want to go and the’d rather deal with the consequences of that decision than fight the hag on her terms. It was an encounter I had spent 5 sessions preparing and they just decided they didn’t wanna do it and flipped the encounter around on me by luring the hag to town and laying traps. I had no choice but to roll with the new plan but I can’t say I was happy to watch my cool boss emcounter get dumped like that. I’m going to save the encounter idea for the future though.
"That's...not what I planned at all, but it makes total sense so it's cannon now" -Me, rapidly reconfiguring the story around this new development the player pointed out
I'd make the necromancer give the sorcerer his free will back only to take it away at a crucial point, becoming a hollow, unspeaking undead. Maybe it takes a short and very interruptible ritual to do so and the players can maybe even try to prevent it/save him. Or let him switch sides. But some DM's aren't really flexible, which isn't inherently bad (it's really tough, of course and you can't expect everyone to have that skill - I certainly don't); you just gotta communicate that at the beginning: "I have one story to tell. I'll tell it the best I can, but I may need you to just ride along with me at times...for all our sakes."
@@bendystrawz2832 Funny enough, I was immediately thinking of an idea where the Sorcerer THINKS he has free will, and it was all just an elaborate plan by the necromancer to get an inside man to the party. Make undead, give it false sense of self, but keep constant eye through it and feed its thoughts with false info that you can use to control the party. If Sorcerer "knows" something, even he himself would not know if that knowledge is real or artificially given by the necromancer. Then at final fight, it'd come down to how much party can make sorcerer overcome the spell by reminding him of his choices, his own likes and stuff, whether he turns against them or nukes the necromancer with orbital spell bombardment.
@@bendystrawz2832I find it incredibly satisfying when the players actually think critically and don't mindlessly follow my prompts. It would also mean that they actually paid attention to the setting and the story.
Nothing better than a party that interacts with the world you are building treating it like it has a sufficient depth to withstand a reasonable amount of doubt.
@@XylarxcodeI wonder if you made the game hell for them after that.
Brian gang, rise up and remember that TTRPGs aren't about you, be it the DM or a party member, and that they're about the group as a whole!
Yeah!
Brian?
Eat the tart
Sorta true, sorta not. Got 3 players with whom I can play together, build a story with them. And two who actively seek to break the story however they want.
Like a football match, in one, we're a team, in another, I'm the ball.
OP should from now on play with the cleric as much as he can. That player is one in a million.
yeah, I would have just left (politely or non-politely, not so sure lol). Major props to him for sticking with it and cleverly playing it out how he did.
on the subject of rallying players to go somewhere - my players once turned a blind eye to orcish raids on nearby villages. That is, until a crying child told the party an orc kicked her puppy - I've never seen them get so serious so fast, they went from "ha ha, look at those poor souls" to "now it's ON"
This made me laugh. You obviously found what they cared about, good job.
There's a group at my local game store where the DM has occasionally said "If I ever need them to do something for the plot I just have a tall brunette ask them to do it." Sometimes you just gotta know what makes the party tick.
ruclips.net/video/VR9wmlmD2SA/видео.htmlsi=1HV68VI_JBHHbqdi
They basically did this
Princess asks for help: "I ain't no simp. I sleep..."
Crying kid with abused puppy: "REAL $H-?!"
I had a some what similar thing recently, port village the party was familiar with and was returning back to. The random travel event card gets pulled and it says fire. Okay sure, not expecting this but sure, I can introduces the second dragon descendent and move that story on. Through very bad roles they only realise the fire is there when there very close, talking brakes out an 2/5 wanna stop the fire, help people out etc. party's tied and down a few spell slots so not feeling to prepared to pitch in with the villagers efforts of containment. Hang on, one of the players pips up, what about (Name of party's horse that's stabled there). 2 turned to 5 the fastest I've ever seen it.
*listens to sorcerer's description*
He.. .. He made a sans.. ..
... He made a Sans Undertale, in a DnD campaign..
I was looking for this comment
@@ethanadams817 Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed.
Oh thank GOD I'm not the only one that noticed. Skeleton wiith a blue glowing eye, REALLY?!
@@Twisted_Code And a coat.
Dont forget that.
He even copied Sans' clothes, bruh
er er er er er er er
My dad had to cheat as DM at one point as he didn't realize my sister had just learned 'Dimension Door' which would have completely ruind his trap/big story moment.
She said she wanted to cast it and, after looking through his notes for a few seconds, just slowly goes, "....no."
Based.
Couldn't he have said something like,
"As you attempt to use dimension door, you notice glyphs light up around the room. You are unable to use that type of magic here."?
Still pretty plot device-y, but gives you a reason.
Could've made the casting of dimension door BE the trap.
@@kyuven It would make his players to think that theirs good idea will be turned against them, what's the point in taking dimension door if the spell just don't work or worse, you could think that you should take only damages spells, wich reduce drastically the implication of a casting classe in non-combat situation even tho it's a part of the game where they shine brightly, that's why I think that even "no" is a better answer than that
I tried to use dimention door in a wizard's tower and got electrocuted lol.
GM: Magic is illegal
Also GM: the sorcerer rushes in and helps you fight the guards
So did the spellcaster fight without magic, or is his magic acceptable?
Edit: I'd also like to point out the DMPC sounds a awful lot like Sans.
Seeing as that rule and the next few ones were pulled straight from the GM's asscrack, it was probably only made to punish the cleric for putting 2 and 2 together.
@@DHTheAlaskan I believe Mathew mercer has to say something about that kind of DM'ing.
@@BlackMoonHowls Matt has a lot to say about a lot of DMing, could you be more specific?
Honestly it really does seem a bit like some version of sans, I wouldn’t be surprised if he could use gaster blasters and telekinesis
I’m glass I’m not the only one who feels the same about the dmpc being sans lmao
The DM was writing a book and could not handle a critic. That is why the DM went on a vendetta aginst the cleric and begun to make up rules ob the spot to "punish" the cleric.
The thing is, the cleric wasn’t even a critic. He was simply a character in the book who acted out of place and the DM didn’t handle it well
See I’ll never understand philosophies like this. I fucking LOVE IT when my party solves the puzzle, or uses the clues I gave them to predict the plot twist, because that tells me they’re so invested in my story that they’re paying attention to the smallest details. And how can you as a DM not be beyond happy when your party finally beats the boss they’ve been working towards defeating for over a year? The looks on their faces and the emotions of it all is just so heartwarming, and it’s such a beautiful moment that should be shared by everyone at the table
I *think* the problem was, there wasn't a plot twist. The cleric thought of something the DM didn't, despite it making perfect sense, and it pissed the later off.
When you get trounced by the rules you wrote. 5 words
You get what you deserve.
4 words
Reap what you sow
I could think of another word to add in there ;)
@@Carnerd101 Yeah, Karma.
@@BlackMoonHowls 3 words: Karma's a bitch :)
2 words: played yourself
Honestly the shadow realm duel, and the shattered armour mechanic are really interesting. It seems like this DM had a lot of great ideas, but didn't know how to react when the players went in an unexpected direction.
That's my take at the end. I can't say he's a Terrible DM™ but he has a long way to go before he's good.
Yeah all the surprise rulings were to the players detriment until it went on the other foot and the dm had a hissy fit.
@@supermcspottythe ting whit homebrew is as a dm You MUST thell the players BEFORE the Game, is the Best way to aboid problems.
Edit: the dm is still a moron
Having some additional special rules is fine, but it should've been disclosed before the beginning of the campaign so that everyone is on an equal foot. Unique rules, but also in world rules like magic being illegal as I'm sure some players would should not to play a magic based character as they wouldn't want to deal with that
@@CritCrabAKA a noob DM they can be good,bad or funny
He is straight up, the MOST badass Cleric there is, no questions asked, actual genius, and not only did he outsmart the DM, he did it all with actual style, that line at the end, hits HARD, actual genius
"Having a plan" is, in my opinion, one of the worst things a DM can do. The *villain* has a plan, and the party's whole reason for being is to subvert that villainous plan... The DM is just there to facilitate that struggle as a storyteller, not to pick a side.
If a party saw an obvious trap I was setting for them that far ahead I'd be proud! Now they have a chance to turn the tables, and come at it from another angle. It makes them feel like they've accomplished something, and can serve as a reason for the bad guys to escalate more quickly, as they perceive the party as a genuine threat, instead of just an easy target. Ta-da: plot development.
A lot of bad DM issues stem from them not being impartial in the story; treating DMPCs like main characters, playing favorites with certain party members, or taking blows to the villain or their plan for the campaign personally instead of recognizing them as exactly what the party is supposed to be doing.
I know what the villains *want* to do, but if they do or don't succeed isn't my problem, it's the party's.
And even from the laziest point of view, if my party bypasses an encounter, so what? I still have it statted, and they don't know what they missed, so I can reincorporate it later if I just don't want the effort to go to waste. Sometimes the difference between a railroad and an 'open world' game is they can't see the tracks, not that there aren't any.
Hell yeah. DMs who "have a plan" should write a book instead. The point of playing a pen and paper game is to share narrative control, not so that the DM can play out their novel script.
@@pakkazull8370 As it happens, I *am* also a writer, and completely agree.
TTRPGs are shared universes, with each person having creative control to an extent.
Honestly, that's what I find exciting about them - I get to write a story and also *not know* what's going to happen in it, at the same time!
A step further might be games where the players trade off being DM; say, one player DMs for [BBEG #1] and another for #2 or for a side arc. That would probably make some horror story DM's heads explode just thinking about it, but if everyone is on the same page that you don't 'win' D&D, but enjoy it, I can attest it works quite well. Has done on my end for nearly 11 years, so far.
And, if I ever DID put players in one of my stories... I'd either have them faaar away from the plot, and just in the same world, or write it off as an alt-universe and let them break it, because who cares? Maybe they'll even give me some good ideas.
Sounds like Eric Cartman was DMing
"Oh Cleric, you're breaking my balls here!"
Cartman would love the authoritai of DM.
Kyle must have been the Cleric.
Mistake to never make as a DM: Tell your players that there will be a plottwist.
If you tell them, they'll await it every second of the game which can kill the gameflow.
Most dnd stories I hear that have good plot twists are more a result of the players just not picking up on something until the reveal moment. You know stuff like 'You never checked insight on this NPC to find out they were actually evil the whole time and you just trusted them to a fault'
DM did the worst thing he could do: Take away player control. They decided they didn't want to go to the necromancer yet because they weren't ready. Next session, the DM railroads them to the inn where the necromancer is? Then, the DM took away armor for the sake of "realism"? Screw that. Not disclosing stuff that should be considered common knowledge, like laws that invoke the death penalty? Absolutely absurd. Then trying to rewrite his own rules so his own BBEG doesn't get killed by the guards? Cleric was absolutely being targeted the entire time, all because he used logic to try and stop the group from going into a losing battle. The DM did this because he wasn't prepared for anything outside of what he had planned, and didn't have any ideas for improvising. His story might have been good, but that doesn't mean he's not a terrible DM. He could learn to be better, for sure, but as of this story, I'm flat out saying that this dude is a terrible DM.
In the very beginning, one of the DMs boasts is about his plans for the "plottwist at the end", and i thought this is kind of a red flag for a DnD game immediately. While not necessarily a bad thing to have ideas for late game story elements, it just really feels like a story they already written and finished in their head.
I wouldn't say the DM was "inexperienced and petty" as a "lifelong DM", they are just bad and living proof that experience doesn't necessarily make you good. Any DM who tells you at the beginning of the campaign that the story and plot twist will be great should be a major red flag that the campaign will be heavily railroaded.
Anyway, if I ever had a bad DM, I would totally stick it out like the cleric did and find my fun in figuring out how to outsmart them or just seeing where this DM is going to go...
Still petty.
It seems like a situation where if someone keeps saying it’ll be good, it probably isn’t good
I love how the cleric was being targeted and nearly single handedly defeated the big bad using just his smarts.
Ikr...he was badass on that carriage chase and changed game when he fell down before guards...
I was okay with the DM till the Guards showed up and it all went down hill from there. I can hand wave off the Railroading to the inn it sucks but w/e, but the point that lost me was for the players who were delivery people in the city not knowing that the law forbids magic and it is punishable by death was a step to far. This is something the players would have had to know to even be part of the city. The DM has some interesting ideas. I don't know I think Session 2 is where I would have quit, but good on cleric holding onto the uno reverse card and sticking it out to shove it in the face of the DM.
Im sitting here listening and i can come up with like 4 different motivations for getting the party into the catacombs.
This DM had a week and had to strong arm the players with BS rulings.
Also the DM learned the hard way why crits arent instant downs in any edition of D&D (or any other system for that matter unless they handle health differently)
I kinda like the idea of crits executing low hit point enemies, but the odds of rolling a crit that gets an enemy low enough to execute but not kill just makes it so that it's almost never used. Maybe if you crit an enemy at or below a certain CR, it can be an insta-down (like against zombies/skeletons, but not the BBEG).
Honestly, until the DM started targeting the Cleric, he had my sympathy. The players poked a single hole in his story that derailed the flow. Yeah, a better DM would think of a new hook, but if I was at this table, I would have talked to him afterwards and given him a mulligan. Let him lead us to the Inn as planned, which the party was all on board with until the Cleric pointed out the inconsistency.
But then he childishly tried to kill off the Cleric, and yeah, all understanding goes out the window.
I watch these videos to learn how to not be a terrible DM and how to deal with problems and I appreciate your videos greatly.
I appreciate your comment 🦀👍
I think this is called "playing a reverse uno card"
No. It's called activating the trap card, mirror force!
@xdrkcldx It does remind me when my opponent summons a powerful monster and I use relinquished to turn that power against him
I'm surprised how shortsighted it was of the DM to send Cleric to the city guards. Guess he just forgot about the rule he made up about magic being a death sentence. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, with how little DM thought through anything he did.
All respect for your leniency on this DM, but even if you won't condemn them as a shit DM, I sure will. A """"lifelong"""" DM should know better than to force a railroady story on a party they're new to without informing them of that intent. When I get in the car to go "party" with someone, I'm not gonna be happy to learn it's their six year old niece's birthday.
2:00 Bro already ruined it by announcing it. Plot twists are best received when unexpected. Bad story telling right off the bat before even a session 0 is already a red flag.
The thing I don’t understand when it comes to this DM, is since apparently the zombie DMPC had nothing to do with this twist that he was working on, so him, turning on the party was never an issue to him, he should’ve gave his precious character some sort of magic item, some sort of keepsake, but the necromancer just didn’t bother to remove. That is the reason why he isn’t following her orders.
Boom. You have a reason why a character is not following and established rule. You also then have something put in place that if you want him to turn on the party unexpectedly, have a necromancer take away the item.
You have to have a reason for why something doesn’t work the way that it normally would.
If you light a candle in the flame burns cold. You can’t just say:
“well that must just be the power of friendship.”
It might be because of a rune that’s carved at the base of the candle, or maybe you can use detect magic, and find out the candle holder is enchanted.
The guy literally had a week to figure that out. Instead, he keeps thinking that the DMPC just hasn’t saved the party enough.
I personally made a character who is revenant. His entire town was captured by a necromancer, and everybody was experimented on, including him.
And the reason why he is a revenant and not a zombie is, because whatever experiment that was being used on him failed so his body was left to rot.
People seem to forget that magic has rules, but magic can also be the answer that changes rules.
That DM is like how my friend and I used to RP over text when we were like 13. Shit happens for no reason, people do things that makes no sense, someone completely ignores something the other person said...
If you ask me, announcing a plot twist that's supposed to be at the end before the game has even begun is in itself already a red flag.
He straight up made Sans his DMNPC
Man that Cleric was ROLLIN, good for him being determined to stick it out, guy was obviously smart AF.
Honestly easy fix for the sorcerer. He doesnt realize he's controlled and thinks he has his own free will. Sure the party wont trust him but have even he question the info and the plan and suggest that since they now know it's a trap to try and trap the necromancer
Trap fails, battle ensues, have sorcerer attacking necromancer and he falls and gets kidnapped. Necromancer taking him back to the catacombs.
Party then has to decide if sorcerer was actually an ally or not and choose if they want to head into the catacombs to find him.
The cleric was scheming the whole time. XD
Had the DM rolled with what the cleric said, that would have been an awesome plot twist, and he would have looked fucking huge brained. Like "Ah...Yeesss. I didn't expect you to put it all together this quickly. You're playing right into her devious plot!"
Disagree. He is a terrible dm. He took away agency and then deliberately targeted the cleric purely out of spit for predicting a planned trap. Good ideas for a story shouldn't give him any kind of pass for being mean spirited and cheating by making up unspecified rules on the spot, changing them when it suited him, and wanted to break all of them to give himself the upper hand, not to mention just flat out playing the story out unfairly so the players can never gain any kind of win. That's a terrible dm. Just imagine what he's going to be like when he gets his first female player and then keeps insisting her character dates his dmpc, and she says no.
I would actually be so proud of my party for figuring out the inn's proximity to the catacombs. Wtf is wrong with him?
Pride and pettiness. When the DM thinks winning means getting the party to do what you want and being the power house.
Cleric did not play by his railroading rules and so he went on a power trip to punish the cleric. Then it royally bit him in the ass.
NEVER be prideful and petty against your Players.
I have to disagree this has all the hallmarks of bad DMing: railroading, dmpc, removal of player agency, targeting players out of spite, changing rules and lore *to* further punish players, godmoding villains, etc.
In fact the only thing no one complained about was the story synopsis. The DM wrote a possibly decent story that the players were not allowed to interact with only forced to experience.
Kept waiting for the temper tantrum from DM when cursed cleric decided to wear a strip of cloth as a headband to blindfold the new eye. 😂
Completely agree about being forced to do something. I'd consider leaving if that the "you're at the place everyone said they don't want to be" happened to me. The magic being punishable by death even though it's a law there's no way they shouldn't know BS is when I'd leave.
If he doesn't respect the players, why should I respect his attempt to run a game?
Honestly, id literally just leave as soon as my pc is in a situation i didnt consent to them being in. Props to that cleric for not only putting up with obvious harassment but finding a way to beat the DM at his own unfair game.
I think he was a step ahead during the delivery run and knew he'd never be allowed to win, he just wanted to get the OP guards who hate magic to fight the undead/necromancer for him. Once he forced the DM to play it out he'd essentially won. Forcing the DM to quit after not following his own stupid rules and essentially reveal the neceomancer has plot armor was the icing on the cake
At the end, I knew the GM was going to eat his own words, but my first thought when the guards ignored the Necro was "Oh, they're in league with her. That explains how she was able to bring an "impenetrable mob" of skeletons onto the streets without being challenged. On the other hand, the PC's outsmarting the bad guy in this fashion would have been super satisfying, and the story could have run on from there if the GM had been willing to just roll with it.
2 minutes in and I’m already annoyed. If you have a twist coming you think is good, don’t tell people a twist is coming. It literally ruins the reveal
god that cleric was such a gigachad.
I get the DM's point of view. I'm writing for a game, and the main story I'm writing is fairly linear. However, the players have reasons to follow the main story (they decided early on that their goal coincides with the main story), and they STILL do things I don't account for in my writing. When that happens, I ask for a moment to consider how things go from here, then once that's done, react according to the players' actions. One player described my GMing as 'that moment in Willy Wonka where it looks like Wonka's going to fall, but then does a cartwheel'.
The part of "the necromancer was in town for longer, why do something only NOW" was easily fixable with an easy roll so a character figures out it was someting like the day before full moon or new moon which is needed for the ritual, thus explaining the time limit and constrictions.
For all the other things, there were plenty of creative ways to push the players towards the plot without forcing them with rules made un on the spot.
ie "As you inspect the undead before you to try to understand if you can trust him or not, you notice a shining object on him" *rolls" "as you inspect it, you realize it's a magic item which grants immunity from being controlled" or some bullshit like this. I made this up on the spot, the DM had a WEEK to come up with a way to give credit to his OC's words.
But seeing all these bad DMs it makes me think that I should try my hand on it too. I can't be worse than them...
Red flags from the start, edgelord undead aasimar sorcerer DMPC, also why the fuck would an evil necromancer just be hanging out at a _tavern?_ That's the _worst_ trap ever. Like you said, kidnap someone and drag em into the catacombs, classic bait for a trap, nice and on theme, makes the party invested... Also this necromancer can just have... whole mobs of skeletons just _show up_ in the middle of town and yet the people have been going about their business unaware this chick's been tossing bones all over the city? Oh and she sees the future. And can control minds. And fight on the mental plane. Yet she really has a big ol hateboner for ONE GUY doing some UPS jobs.
Honestly the DM could have done much better as sometimes you learn your players are great writers:
Session 1 ends with the DMNPC entering dramatically saying they heard that.
Session 2 could have built off with a twist where the Sorcerer fights the party and after the defeat it significantly weakens the necromancer allowing the party enough time to come up with an original counter-plan without any railroading.
This. I can't count how many times I've intended for things to go one way, just for my players to drive it in a different, many times BETTER way
@@itsgenguy7275 Yup. That's the entire point of a TTRPG. If you just want a linear story, go play a video game or write a novel. I will never understand the crazy railroad DMs out there that come with a preplanned plot and expect the players to just blindly go from A to B to C.
@@taragnor Hard agree. While imo theres nothing wrong with having an intended set of stories for the game to follow through, (because without an intended route theres nothing to base off or deviate from) it gets out of hand when it goes from 'Intended Path' to 'The Path'
When things go exactly as planned, I as a DM take that as a bad sign. That's the sort of thing that makes me question whether I've been railroading my players, and I pay extra close attention to them in the next session to see if they're still invested.
That is pretty crazy though. I think I missed it, but were the guards working for the necromancer? Cause a current me, would be tempted to leave the town to its fate.
Also this reminds me of a time i got either diseased or poisoned, and I wanted to dispel it as a paladin, and we ended up ruling it as storyline whichever, and my class skill couldn't remove it.
As Pitch Meetings would say, "so the script can happen"
The guards were not working working for the necromancer. That's why, in the end, the players were able to force the guards and necromancer to fight. The necromancer was not aligned with the guards and was using magic, which was punishable by death. I also presumed the town was aware of this necromancer threat, but I don't think it was actually stated.
It _seems_ like the guards and the necromancer were in cahoots because of how the DM ran both HARD targeting the cleric in a scenario where the cleric was absolutely not the immediate threat (or priority) for either side.
Red Flags went off in my head as soon as the DM said there was a terrific twist coming... how could he know that unless he was planning on severely rail-roading the adventure?
6:30 Imo the best way to do this from the player's POV is to continue doing what you would have done. Either tell the DM that's not what your character does or tell them that you leave the inn to do the thing you want. Sometimes this kind of playstyle is toxic, but when the DM is forcing you into an obvious trap, it's entirely valid to have your character walk away.
The game was over at 9:08 when the DM practically changed the laws of reality when he inserted a new law of land, no PC was aware of. At that point I would have left the game.
Quick fix for the DM. Have the Sorcerer "Drop," the illusion, saying that the Necromancer didn't realize that he had Deathward placed upon him by the Cleric who sent him to fight the necromancer first, and that he had a ring of spell-storing and subtle spell, which allowed him to cast disguise-self as an undead. His story wasn't 100% accurate, but it was close enough to trick any prying ears. Since he was confident that they were safe, he was able to "Drop," the illusion and tell them the truth. Now, the rule isn't broken, since it isn't an undead who somehow has free will even though he's supposed to do the necromancer's bidding, it's an aasimar pretending to be undead and spying on the necromancer.
I would have introduced the sorcerer as a smart crafty schemer after his cover is blown. During the ensuing battle the anybody is marked. Arcana gets the info and the team needs to find a way to break it while random undead skirmishes happen here and there. Rub all the weird or offensive home rules and its a fun first quest
Cleric made the DM story look even better. DM if humbles a little they may have fun together and the DM will surtenly improve is manners of playing
I've had things that I over looked like the sorcerer not supposed to be a traitor and the players thinking they are for very logical reasons. When the players point out that the necromancer can control all thralls to eachother I would've internally just been like "crap I forgot about that part. new plan, sorc is a traitor and upset they figured it out." Also the cleric using the gaurds against the necro is amazing. In my last campaign my players outsmarted me on multiple occasions. Sure it can be frustrating but i'm also so freaking proud of them. Use those beautiful brains!
Exactly. As a DM I love when my players outsmart me. For one, it is a more interesting story if they are the ones driving it and for another, I like to have my improve skills tested to try to keep things flowing.
@glassberg5018 improv is half of what makes me love DMing. Especially when they do something so freaking off the wall crazy that I've got to end the session early to ponder the consequences. I've had that happen only once but I'm so proud of my batch of gremlins
I've learned the magic words of "wow I was not expecting that, just do some RP and give me a minute to think" instead of huffing and puffing and insisting they play my story@@Beatrix7979
Personally, I see no reason that "the undead are raised to do the necromancer's bidding" should be regarded as a hard rule, with zero chance for the magic to sometimes fail for one reason or another. There's a lot of reason to doubt the sorcerer, but them retaining their free will hardly seems impossible.
Considering that they were supposedly a 'lifelong DM' I'd have to disagree and say that they were a bad DM. It doesn't mean that they can't improve and become a good one or that this wasn't just a rare bad campaign for them but in this campaign they made a lot of pretty big mistakes.
1. Failed to mention rules/intentions of the game beforehand (and that's assuming that they didn't make some of it up on the spot for #3)
2. Were completely inflexible with the story and from the sounds of it, wanted to punish players (aka Cleric) for ruining their railroad.
3. Singled out and targeted another player. DM vs Player mentality is *never* good unless you have a cool story in mind where it's intentional.
4. The biggest flaw. Hypocrisy. They used the rules to screw over Cleric while trying to sweep those terrible rules under the rug the second it would negatively impact themselves.
This is why I always go over ground stuff before sessions happen and I state if a monster can do it so can the players if the players can so can the monster. That way no one can complain you want introduce a hombrew race or class cool you may however do know that it is now apart of the world and you may have to face it or you might not but it does exist. Keeps everything on even playing fields.
If you wanted to have the sorcerer not being under the necromancers control, you could say something like this:
I was raised by this monster, but he never controlled me. I was an experiment to see what would happen if one with celestial blood was reanimated and study the results.
I played along. Being forced to serve him and do unspeakable acts. I bided my time until his observations laxed. I took the opportunity to escape. Thankfully, i had plenty of time to practice my patience and was able to wait long enough for someone to come to this city with the ability to help. I waited all this time for you.
Please, help me
I’ll never understand the petty DM behavior.
He clearly created a great world with an interesting twist and a logical through line.
The fact the cleric figured it out is a compliment to his world imo.
Rather than turning petty, he should have been excited to have someone so engaged in his story.
The problem is he wasn't creating a world, he was creating a plot. So when the PCs didn't want to follow his plot, he got upset.
@@taragnor yeah. At that point though they should just write a book lol
It started with a great twist. The undead could have been created and given the illusion of free will, but was inadvertently working for the necromancer. When the party finds out it adds a new layer of story telling to work with and if they don't then the story continues as normal.
3:45 my guy, this is the DREAM of every dm. The cleric just set up the story to have an insane plot twist, with betrayal, a boss fight and everything.
Honestly the spy eye sounds like something I want to use for my next villain.
The problem with having ONE super good, exciting story, is that you treasure it. DM kind of didn't want to be flexible about his magnum opus.
I love how the Cleric kind of guesses the plot and the enemy's strategies, such a great move. Still, can't ignore how lucky he was to even get the cart to the Guard Fort.
This situation happened to me too, back in college. We ended one session debating if we should continue with our pre-planned idea to storm a warehouse, because new information had sprung up right at the end that threw what we knew for a loop, and in the next session, the DM started it with us already approaching the warehouse. We argued with the DM for several minutes, until one of the players-- who was silent up until this point in this session-- just stood up and left the table. "Where are you going?" we asked. "Home." "Why?" "Because I came here to play my character, and not have my character be played for me."
A few minutes of silence, and we all followed the first player, leaving the DM behind. We were at the DM's house.
"What was stopping them from doing their plan before now" is a question I always ask myself when making villains. If I had a necromancer in town that the players had to stop, I'd have the reason she didn't execute her plan yet be like.... needs to be a harvest moon or something
I feel like there's a fair number of DMs out there who try to pivot or alter their plans when the players figure them out. It's important to remember that it's okay if the players figure out what you're planning, that's what makes it fun for a lot of players. You don't have to alter the outcome to keep things fresh but you can still throw in a complication or two.
One of my favorite DM "tricks" is when the players figure out my plans or bypass a major encounter, I'll dramatically throw my notes into the garbage and tell them that I have to wing it from here on out. They usually feel pretty satisfied with themselves.
DM sounds like the kind of guy where the most applicable advice is "just write a novel then"
I feel as though if I was the GM, and I'd made this whole edge aasimar undead spy, forgetting what I'd said earlier about the lich having complete control over the undead she raised, I'd basically be immediately shifting gears behind the GM screen, like "oh right, I hadn't even planned for the aasimar to be a plant, but they are now!" And essentially congratulate the players on seeing through the lich's deceptive ploy.
they figured out the trap, that dosn't mean it's over, like, let the players have some agency, might need to end the session early if it's that far off the og plans, but they could capture and attempt to interrogate the undead, he tries to escape/inform the necromancer, who may now see them as a more serious threat, and come after them, or the players may come up with a counter-plan, ad-lib those bits and get an idea what they want to do going forward to prepare for next time
seriously, how hard is it to be like, well im not telling you if you are right or not, but this is a new direction either way, so let me know what you guys are thinking about doing so i can prep stuff for it
I don’t know, the cruel, focused targeting of one guy for multiple sessions, all for the “crime” of figuring out the story, seems condemnable to me. :/
Woooh, Love a comment roasting the DM for being bad & going the 'f around and find out' as spam & adds. What a wonderful community you have. Sorry if I think one of the dumbest things you can do is actively & without thinking make up rules to target players as it will be used against you.
Gotta say though. Totally inclusive of you. There is a difference between 'railroaded' and just plain abusive. The DM f'd around and found out. brought the BBEG out, to personally torment and target the players even against the dice roles and violates player autonomy so hard it almost considered s*xual.
That's the kind of DM that will only ever be sub-par and the reason isn't because of world or creative ability, it's because they will actively panic & not keep track of their own actions or 'hooks' used against the players or on the world. They are the kind of player that others don't like. Will bend everything to get what they want, but when it comes to the benefit of others.... Just silence and attempting to go by unnoticed.
I'm all in for harsh, railroaded, tragic, and even 'this is going to end poorly no matter what' stories.... but ya know the difference between them and what he dm did.. They actually planned it out and it was always crystal clear either OOC or in the setup that it was going to roll a certain way.
I'm gonna differ from Crabby, here. I feel like the guy was a mediocre DM with some good ideas.
If you have extra mechanics like the crit down or armor break, you let players know while they're making the characters. Also, a setting with magic outlawed differs from a standard DND setting, so part of the setup and prologue should be making sure everyone is on board. If someone wanted to play the scion of a famous sorcerer bloodline, for instance, it would be completely different in this setting.
Honestly, though, his worst affront was trying to grudge kill the cleric. Being targeted like that is unfun. Maybe there is hope for the guy, but he needs to take this as a learning experience.
I don't know why, but while listening to this, a terrible joke popped into my head.
Daniel: Hey, nice to meet you. Name's Daniel Masters.
Mike: Hey Dan. That's a cool name, you our new DM?
Daniel: (stares intently) Roll initiative, mother f*cker!
Am I the only one who didn’t immediately catch onto what media he is talking about at 5:45 ?
👀
Game of thrones
not the only one
JJK immediately came to mind LOL
Some of my favorite moments as a DM are when my players totally screw up my stories.
We were doing a 40k Inquisition game. The players were interrogators (inquisitors in training) sent to a planet that had rumors of alien corruption. When the players got there and questioned the planetary governor he of course denied the claims that they'd had interactions with aliens, but began to plead with the interrogators that the planet is a factory world and thus can't make its own food, and that for some reason the shipments of food weren't coming anymore. The governor was a shockingly down-to-earth man for the position he held. The players decided to "roleplay as loyal interrogators" and basically said "not my problem, I'm here to weed out heresy."
They go back to the landing dock, send their landing ship to orbit and hide. Soon enough an alien barge comes out and lands on the platform and some rather benign aliens walked out and began unloading what was OBVIOUSLY charity food for the people. I was trying to put the players in a moral dilemma. They didn't know anything about the aliens, so maybe this was some sort of corrupt poison or a way to infect the population, but really it just looked like these people desperately needed food and the aliens were altruistic. It was supposed to lead into an investigation that would flip them back and forth between the "this isn't a problem, just leave it and let the people eat" vs "this is a horrible idea, and this planet is going to be the cause of a horrible heresy."
But the players gave zero ****s about the moral dilemma and proceeded immediately to snipe the planetary governor and the aliens on the platform, confiscate the food with zero intention of determining if it was a hazard or not, and to top it off they called in a favor to have some imperial navy ships blockade the planet to prevent future contact. Then they left the planet and looked at me like "that was a fun intro, when does the campaign start."
They had just left an entire planet to starve and had zero qualms about it. I couldn't help but bust out laughing. It was incredible.
I used to give out bonus exp for my players if they short circuited my adventures.
used to?
@@irisinthedarkworld I don't play RPGs anymore.
I like the new sounds you used in-between the story and the interjected commentary in this and the last video. As much as I liked the crab scurrying sounds they were a little long. This is quick and to the point, getting you right back into the story. I hope you keep the sounds
These anecdotes are wild.
I haven't played D&D since highschool, and we never had anyone we didn't know join the story.
Social Media didn't even exist yet... that ages me. 😂
It was the same party for years, so I never had these kinds of negative experiences.
The Ballad of Malus the Edgelord blew my mind...
Petty yes, but inexperienced? In the beginning of the story its mentioned that he's a lifelong DM.
Plot twist: he was actually born yesterday.
Some people get very insecure about their abilities. He might've _said_ he was a lifelong DM, but that doesn't mean he was telling the truth.
@daviddaugherty2816 maybe, but I would think they'd be more likely to undersell they're ability not oversell it. Either way we can't really confirm that and I think it's much more likely that Duke just misremembered that part and assumed they were inexperienced.
My players ruin my DM plans all the time. I just have to be good at improv and I have a few generic adventure books on the side that may inspire a last minute 5 room dungeon or something. I have found that sometimes the players, through their plot crushing, come up with better plot twists than I ever could. Their own paranoia can be a great plot seed. Get off the railroad and go with the flow. Sometimes the session ends early but at least the players keep coming back.
Also, occasionally ask the players what they liked and didn't like about the last session/adventure. I have the most fun when the players are having fun....really.
The gm could've prevented so many of these issues if they'd just started the players as undead of the necromancers.
The sorcerer is wearing his Sans cosplay
Bro really made Sans Undertale as a DMPC...
“(DM) had a linear story that…was good”
Cool. He should write a book then
Thing is the additional 3d4 of damage could have been a cool way of describing a critical hit or ability the NPC had. But instead was blatantly a "I want to kill you now" lol.
Nice story as always dude!
The dm probably could have saved it if they had sorcerer attack the party and before he died say that the necromancer would bring the dead back to life and start attacking the city if they didn’t come fight her
Edit: I swear I wrote this before crit crab said it and I don’t mean to steal ideas or anything like that
This story has actually inspired a new campaign idea in me, a group of couriers working for a delivery service and they travel to another kingdom from their town to give royal tribute to the king. There's been news going around the the prince seems to have run off and disappeared but once they deliver the package all that's in it is the princes severed head. Queue plot, I think I'm gonna flesh this out now, thank you bad dm 😂
I absolutely HATE the idea of 'mAgIC iS ILleGAL!' trope, unless like, you are meant to be a criminal in the campaign actively going against the law who actively suppresses magic. Like, I understand that guards would rather prefer casters not flagrantly use magic in the open but being so uptight about magic in a setting where dragons, elves, goblins and fantastical bullshit just seem very dumb to me.
Anyways, I have ideas on how to railroad the party into the catacombs, or at least have the necromancer hunt them down and kill them:
1. Have the Necromancer kidnap an important figure, or hell even a party member to force them to go in and save their comrade.
2. First, remove the magic is illegal bullshit. The guards have realized something odd going on with undead skulking the streets. They have enlisted the help of adventurers to solve their undead problem and you have been tasked to go in the catacombs. The pay is exceptionally good.
3. Or worst come to worst, have a 'rocks fall on you everyone dies' moment. Because the necromancer threat has been ignored for very long, she has managed to raise the entire catacombs and ransacks the entire village. The onslaught will be an almost impossible battle, even with the guards helping.