The Dark Side of Led Zeppelin's Legacy
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- Опубликовано: 25 ноя 2021
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Not excusing anyone in Zeppelin with this. John Paul Jones tried hard to keep himself away from their behaviour. Staying separate hotels and such. He got harassed for it and became the outsider. Some say JPJ didn't sign their deal with the Devil and has escaped a lot of the tragedy and behaviour of his bandmates.
That is very true, it's said that, while his bandmates were out doing who knows what, he stayed at the hotel or diguised himself to go out without being harassed. Still, it's not excusable, as you say, it's complicated.
@@YankeePinstriper I can see any opposing Peter Grant and his money maker being quite a daunting task.
JPJ will forever be my favorite member of Zeppelin, and one of my favorite musicians across the board for this reason, among others.
That sounds like something JPJ would do
Sure but he knew about Lori Mattix/Jimmy Page "relationship" and he cheated on his wife with groupies, albeit not the teenage ones. I don't think I've ever read that he got harassed for staying in different hotels. I guess it depends on your definition of harassment. There is being alienated and there is making a choice to be an outsider. I think JPJ made his choice, especially when Plant's son died and JPJ decided not to come to funeral because he was on vacation.
James Brown was the hardest working man in show business, but Poly is the hardest working music channel on RUclips
Nah, that title belongs to Professor of Rock.
@@memorandom7484 I feel you but I feel the production mixed with conceptual, eloquent aspects of his videos are too tier. As well as these sort of hidden, abstract stories of things I’ve never heard of, is definitely a result of hard work
James Brown was a horrific, terrible abuser of women. He makes Ike Turner look like a choir boy
@@paisleyprincess7996 true as this may be, this neither confirms nor denies the statement you decided to reply to. You can be an abusive person *and* the hardest working person in a field. I'd even argue working as hard as that will make you *more* likely to be abusive because of the immense psychological strain. Keep in mind, that I'm not making excuses for abusive behaviour.
@@bowel_movement Yes, he WAS the hardest working man, and that’s no lie. BUT, if we’re going into abusive musicians, we need to call out James Brown, who threw a teenage Tami Terrell down the stars. Great musician, hard working…Talented. But NOT a great man
Lots of people work hard, and they don’t beat people up for missing notes. I think JB’s issues had to do more with temperament and his own issues than anything else
I specially like your take on the "separate art from the artist" debate. I mean, I agree that the most ethical thing to do is to quit supporting harmful or problematic artists, but people often talk about this like if artists were brands of shoes, like "I'll buy more Adidas for I don't want to support Nike anymore". Art impacts our lives in complex and often unpredictable ways and we can't fully control how it makes us feel, even if we know it's creator may not be the best person there is. I'm not saying good artists should'nt be hold accountable for their mistakes but I think we need to talk more about how art can still be meaningful even if we don't like the person who made it.
This is why you torrent 👊
Piracy is the anwser.
@@drowsy7921Arrgh!
I wouldn't call what was described in this video as "mistakes". One doesn't mistakenly sleep with a 14 year old.
This video hit especially hard for me. I'm a HUGE Zeppelin fan but I'm also an abuse survivor, so there always remained a conflict in me when I felt touched and inspired by their art while knowing they have a spotty history in regards to misogyny, abuse, etc. The nuance and compassion you gave this topic is admirable and it helped put into words some of the complicated feelings I have towards Zep. Their work changed me for the better and I have derived a lot of comfort and happiness from their music, but it also doesn't mean I excuse their reprehensible behavior. Looking at Zeppelin as flawed, complex human beings rather than as perfect icons/idols or completely deplorable demons gives me a new layer of understanding to their work, as well as reassuring the nuanced perspective of them I hope more people can achieve. I don't think I'll ever stop loving and enjoying Zeppelin, but it's been a very freeing realization to me that sometimes being critical of the things you love, acknowledging its problems, and allowing room for those deeply human flaws to be Seen shows a type of respect and appreciation for art that is often misunderstood to be hateful. Not to mention it can help ME respect MYSELF more when I allow these men to exist as more than just easy-to-define caricatures in my mind. And this applies to more than just Zeppelin, too, considering Zep are FAR from the only ones doing this kind of stuff (I recently had to rethink my old admiration for Prince, so it's definitely something that isn't exclusive to Zep, nor is it something that started or ended with them... I appreciate a lot the way you acknowledged that, too.)
TL;DR, love the video. Keep up the good work!
My best friend and I got talked into taking our sisters to a rock show featuring Motorhead, AC-DC and Aerosmith at the Long Beach Arena as we both liked the groups and it was free to us we agreed. I went to get the tickets and got lucky getting a priority ticket which allowed the purchase of 4 tickets 6th row center. It was a great show (Bon Scott era AC-DC) anyway half way through the Aerosmith set a roadie approached my sister and starts to take her to the backstage fenced off area so I followed him and as he opens the door I say "Hey Man that's my sister and she's only 15 " his response was to throw his hands in the air and quickly duck behind the door. My sister was a little upset with me at the time, but I'm still glad I did it.
@@TommySprocket that's nice. I hope your sister understands what was right with you saying that
“She is only three years old and it's a real fine way to start.”
@@dahawk8574 in all fairness they have a lot of creepy lyrics but that ones about Robert plants daughter, he’d often change the lyric to reflect on her current age, that’s why on TSRTS version of the ocean he says “4 years old”
@@Sunburn77, I'll repost what I'd responded in a different thread...
==========
Let's look at the context:
---------
I got a date, I can't be late ...
Now I'm singing all my songs to the girl who won my heart
---------
Having a date, and having a female winning his heart is readily interpreted as romantic involvement. So then he switches to his daughter. The audience response is supposed to be surprise. Ha ha, because dating underage females is such a hoot.
We all know Led Zeppelin's history with lifting song ideas from black artists. No way that The Ocean was a ripoff of Chuck Berry's plot twist ending in Memphis, Tennessee where the listener is led to believe he's inquiring about his lover, only to learn at the end that its his 6yr old daughter Marie. No way anyone would confuse Chuck Berry for a pedophile sex offender.
The parallel is uncanny. Perhaps to the point that it was worthy of mention in this Polyphonic series covering Led Zeppelin's Dark Side. It's actually very easy to imagine the band having a laugh over this song. "Ha ha, Pagey, you're dating a child, and here I am singing about dating my child!"
Hilarity. Pedophilia is such a humorous topic. At least it appears to have been to Led Zeppelin. (Let alone Chuck Berry, Jerry Lee Lewis, etc, etc, etc.)
==========
“When art hits you it hits you.”
so true
Led Zeppelin tells everybody what music and stardom is and what it should never be
Well said.
When you started this series, I was thinking, "great, another Led Zeppelin series," but I've really enjoyed, and been impressed by, the complexity of the stories you've told. As you said, you are big Led Zeppelin fan, and you don't shy away from the full story. This is exactly the way I think great artists should be discussed - understand the great art and appreciate it, but understand the full complexity of the subject.
Bravo, sir, bravo. This is an extremely well done series.
Nasty beta BS. Nobody cares about all this PC crap. Grow a pair and man up.
Funny how, when I was 13 and "discovered" Led Zeppelin I thought Jimmy's and Lori's relationship was something to romanticize. I was always secluded, fantasizing. But i had to understand, the hard way, that there cannot be a healthy relationship when one admires the other too much, and the other does not reciprocate. Now i have a daughter, and that thought has been more than cemented.
Their music is almost sacred to me, my daughter will grow up listening to them. But she will also know, in her due time, what they did and what kind of people they were, and how "normal" it was back then. A conversation i need to have, in order to change something for the better. I guess.
That's why it's hard for me to single out Zeppelin. Their behavior really wasn't THAT outrageous considering the times (I'm 56 and have very vivid memories of those days). Still, not something to celebrate as we have acquired life experiences and wisdom, but in our youth, most of us was attracted to the permissive lifestyle of the 70s and 80s. Compared to today, that was a very strange time to be alive. I reckon that as time goes on, the pendulum will swing back to similar behavior once things hit the limit with conservativism and moral crusades. It's cyclical. All we can do is try our best to raise our kids and hope to G-d everything works our alright.
Lori lost her virginity to David Bowie yet I never hear anyone bashing media darling Bowie for it.
Some suspect Elvis may have been with Priscilla before she came of age.
Let's also not forget it wasn't that long ago that kids were fighting in wars. Well, they still are in some places today.
don't wait too much for that conversation.
From what I see coming from Tiktok, kids will get even more promiscuos than ever before.
Anna out of everyone's comments your s made the absolute most sense.. you are a wise woman..
@@poasful You hit the nail on the head China is trying to take us down with a thousand Cuts just don't listen to their b******* hold your shoulders back and your head high they will never be as great as America never
I appreciate the nuance and humility in this series. I am right there with you, not just with music but with other art forms. Sometimes, I can't separate the artist, or I have to limit my consumption because it just reminds me of the chasm between what it once meant to me and what the artist now represents (esp. if the artist is still alive and causing harm 🙃). And sometimes I can contextualize it, let myself feel uneasy, and strive for something better. It's the best I've got, for now, and I genuinely believe that this is the path to something better in the future, still unknown.
I'm so glad Led Zeppelin doesn't even have music videos, every video of them online is live, some interviews but the music was always in front of a crowd listening sitting down. Truly legendary
8:23
morgana welch, the girl with the blonde hair in the middle, told the story about this photo. she said that this was bonzos birthday party and everyone gathered in to take a picture and the baby groupies (lori maddox and sable starr) came out of no where. and sable (the girl with blonde curly hair sitting next to robert) made robert really uncomfortable. apparently robert actually felt really bad for the underage groupies. and that’s what the song “sick again” is about.
Apologist.
I was going to write this too! Plant didn't like the teen groupies and wrote about them. BUT all rock bands had teen groupies in the 70s, 80s, 90s.
Excellent vid Poly. As a huge Zep fan myself, reckoning with their complicated legacy is very difficult, but you've made that much easier with these magnificent videos. Thank you!
same here
It's easy for me, I just do not concern myself with devil stuff, or else I'll be unable to like almost ANYONE in show business.
Just focus on what you like. Most of the bad stuff you hear is rumors and defamation anyway. It's a bed of vipers out there. The bigger you are, the more enemies you get. And everyone knows that character-assassination is the most effective weapon against a celebrity, so it's not far-fetched to say Led Zeppelin is probably not guilty of half the things they're accused of.
Nasty woke beta BS. Nobody cares about all this PC crap.
@@darkseid6898 How is it nasty, woke, and beta to be concerned about pedophilic allegations and artistic theft? 🤔
@@MsMastress Don't be stupid. Nobody cares about all that weak leftist crap. You need to educate yourself.
I never heard of the mudshark incident, so I googled it.
According to Carmine Appice's biography he was there and the people involved with the incident were the tourmanagers of Zep and Vanilla Fudge, none of the band members of those bands.
So, it begs the question; can you hold that against the band(s)?
If yes, in which way. and if not, why have you brought it up here?
Because it's titillating. Some people just talk crap to pass wind. Led Zeppelin were the OG rock Gods. With all that entails. Yeah they did drugs and banged groupies. Get over it! It's what they were supposed to be doing. The Universe demanded it of them.
@@1pcfred you didn't read the question, did you?
@@1972LittleC of course I read the question. I also answered the question.
@@1pcfred no, you didn't, because it had nothing to do with the band, as I explained.
So, why would you, in a piece about a band and groupies, mention something that has nothing to do with the band?
It sounds more like a drive by shooting then a targeted segment this way.
"Piling on", is the technical term for it.
He didn't mention that page was also involved with "miss Pamela".another legendary groupie...long before she met and married Michael Des Barres...(whose first band "detective" was on Led Zeppelin's SwanSong label at the time)
I don't know if we _can_ have a satisfactory answer to the question of what to do with abusive artists. It's clear that we didn't kill the gods. We just pulled them down to our level. All we can do, I think, is try to make the world a better place, and try to hold power accountable. Even that is going to be a Herculean task.
Lori Maddox looks like a 13 year old girl in those photos. When you see these grown ass men almost twice her age partying with Lori and the one who was a groupie at 11, it puts into perspective how little respect they had not only for the girls, but their ages.
Not everyone considers themselves victims when they’re assaulted, as Maddox doesn’t see herself as such. But she contradicted herself when she said she wouldn’t want that for anyone’s daughter, which shows that she isn’t as okay with it as she seems. The sad thing here is you got people, even tho the girl was 14 and the other 11, STILL defending The LZ crew. Yes it was decades ago, but even then any ordinary grown man “having sex” with an 11 or 14 year old would be seen as disturbing asf. It’s STILL disturbing!
@Critique Everything Prince couldn’t be classified as a pedophile because pedophiles go for kids 13 and younger. Predator? He did groom Mayte by taking him under his wing at 16, but he didn’t “consummate” their relationship until she was 18. Cringy and creepy? Indeed. Mayte was immature 18 year old virgin…Prince was pretty predatory for that
I was a teenager in the 1970s, and our society as a whole was distorted and destructive due to rampant drinking, drugs, and “free love.” I look back and am disgusted by what was considered normal, funny or even admirable. There were a lot of walking wounded, but no one seemed to take note. Led Zeppelin both reflected this lack of values and led the charge.
@@javaskull88 true!
This series was incredible, and as a Zep fan uncomfortable in exactly the right way.
Nasty beta BS. Nobody cares about all this PC crap. Grow a pair and man up.
this series has to be one of the best, most nuanced critiques of an artist's legacy ever made. thank you bro.
I think listening or not listening is too personal. And there are so many geniuses that have been (or are) abusers, bigots, etc that all of us has some piece of art that we can't let go of. Being honest about it, having this conversations, listening to victims, caring and not allowing new artists to get away with it, it helps a lot.
if you always look for the negative,chances are you are deeply negative inside.
@@aporue5893 what does that have to do with anything?
Amazing series of videos, especially this one. I've always compared the struggle of liking music with artists that have complex and unsavory stories to liking a villain's character in a book- you wouldn't condone it and you understand and acknowledge what they've done and how it affects people, but you can enjoy what the character brings to the story as a whole, and they might even teach you something about yourself. Ultimately, all art is made by humans, who are imperfect and make countless mistakes, but knowing those mistakes and learning from them and seeing how that reflects in their art, makes the art itself human. Thanks for bringing up these topics, really enjoyed this month of videos!
Would it be fair to say that John Paul Jones was the least problematic of all Led Zeppelin members, since he wasn't infamous for engaging in the debauchery with other band members and was more 'introverted' and 'discreet'? Or should we say he was complicit in the problematic behaviour of his band mates?
Probably complicit.
I don't think he was involved in that stuff. Like, he stayed far away and just focused on the music. Minded his own business. In that way though, he can be seen as guilty of enabling that lifestyle. He didn't partake, but he didn't stop. He just moved aside and let the river flow. Is that bad? Is that good? Depends on which side of the world you're on.
@@fuckingblackgod I think that’s worse than doing the act itself. Even if he couldn’t stop them he could have said something
He was an arranger and sessionplayer in london before zepplin, so was page, but jpj seems the quiet english professional type and has been married since 67
@@paisleyprincess7996 You legitimately think that staying away from the public eye is worse than child abuse?
Guys, what do we say about John Paul Jones? He tried to get away from his bandmates's behavior, but he was still a part of Zeppelin, therefore doesn't really get a pass on these things. What do you think of this?
It's complicated
he did more than the others but he should of still done more to call out his bandmates
i don't blame him though it must of been awful to see your bandmates, your friends becoming monsters that are celebrated as gods
I'll give him a pass because he probably couldnt do much about it
He was complicit, whether there was anything he could do about it or not.
You just described nearly every famous rock band from the 60s and 70s. They all partook in this kind of debauchery, especially with underage groupies, from Hendrix, Bowie, Morrison to Zeppelin, Rolling Stones and Motley Crue. Is it right? Of course an adult and underage teenager is not right, but its also incredibly easy to retroactively judge eras through today's social lens and standards. The environment, the culture and the nonchalant attitude of the sexual revolution paved a way for this kind of behavior and as you described, even promoted it in magazines and media. Zeppelin was a product of their environment. It's like trashing our Founding Fathers because they owned slaves, even though nearly everyone in a high position owned slaves in that time era.
Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of these groupies that were "taken advantage of" were willing participants, and of course in the eyes of the law that wouldn't matter because of them being underage, but in that time era, many groupies would compete to get a bands attention, some taking it to extreme levels to sleep with band members, or go on tour with them.
I just feel like this video is on par with a "Daily Beast" hit piece- digging up dirty on a single party and attempting to make the case that their legacy is stained because of supposed wrongdoings in an environment where these behaviors were extremely prevalent and even celebrated.
Either way, I'm a fan of your work. You do a hell of a job on your videos, you're talented and you probably won't even see this rambling comment, but just wanted to provide some constructive criticism on this video. Cheers, mate.
This has been my favorite polyphonic series ngl
This video is a bit frustrating because it's obvious you know a lot about the band, but the knowledge about band's members personal lives (that is subject of this video) is a bit superficial. At one point in time, I probably read every book/interview/forum post there was about the band, and I got much different impression about the excesses.
For example, the picture you showed on screen with Sable and Lori in it was taken at Rodney's Bingenheimer English Disco during John Bonham's 24th birthday. There is an interview out there that I remember reading in which Plant got asked about that specific picture. The band obviously didn't want it taken, they were surprised by it, so the band members were not posing but Sable was. Apparently, Sable sat next to Plant just before the picture got taken. He was annoyed (you can see him giving her a side eye). He said he knew that this picture would end up in some magazine that his wife would see. I read many tell-all books including those written by women who were there: Lori, Pamela, Bebe etc. and none of them even hinted Plant was with Sable Starr. I think you jumped into conclusions based on just that picture.
There is no reason for me to defend these men. There were many times their behavior (mostly Page's and Bonham's) was atrocious but after reading about many other bands it just doesn't stand out (which is sad). There are lots of myths about Zeppelin that they never cared to dispel and now it bites them in their asses. When you read direct interviews with people who were there it becomes obvious many of those outrageous stories were just not true or exaggerated. The fantasy is often more appealing, so it sticks. The infamous "Mudshark incident" at most included one member of LZ if it even happened. Plant didn't wear blouses of groupies he slept with, he bought them himself in vintage shops in cities they toured in etc.
The argument of, "Well other people did even worse" isn't the iron-clad defense you seem to think it is.
@@habojspade well, I didn't say "other people did even worse". Why are you misrepresenting my comment?
He admits many of the stories could be apocryphal at several moments in the video. This includes the Mudshark incident. History is often unclear with conflicting accounts and mythology. I think he sorted it out pretty well.
I'm glad you made this comment because I think it's important to note this. That assumption he made about Sable and Plant was fucking ridiculous and nowadays you can get in a decent amount of trouble for that kind of defamation - seeing as he made this video, he must know this well. It kinda seems like although he's a big Zep fan, he's bought into some of the myths which researchers of the band know are highly exaggerated or outright false.
I do believe he has good intentions with making this video. He wants to make it clear that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable. At all. But when he puts too much of his own opinion and emotion into a subject which he can only know about via 2nd and 3rd hand stories, he's unfortunately losing credibility. He said Sick Again is about Lori. I had to sigh as soon as he said that - It's about Plant feeling sorry for the young try-hard groupies, which is quite the contrary to what Polyphonic was trying to make out.
I feel like he (like many others) forget that these were different times with different standards: Beating your wife as seen as normal and was socially acceptable; cops were far more violent than they are nowadays and used to get away with a whole lot of corruption that would make any sane person sick to their stomach; racism was fairly common because it was almost a social norm due to the very recent past of injustices which were still happening (and still happen, unfortunately).
This is putting things into perspective. It is not a defence or an excuse. If you take the incidents out of context (in this scenario, almost 5 decades out of context), of course they look like fucking horrific tales of paedophilia, rape and more when in reality it was just a mixture of fans, wannabes and outcasts who were desperate for some kind of connection and sought it from rockstars who should have been far more moral than they chose to be.
@@poetryflynn3712 But let’s make something clear: Lots of victims don’t think they’re victims. Given their ages, they probably didn’t think that they were victims, as they were “living the dream.” Lori Maddox said herself she wouldn’t wish that on anyone’s daughter, which shows that a 14-year old “having sex” with a Jimmy Page is pretty bad. And like the video says, these women couldn’t consent, so it’s still awful…whether they think it was or not.
I want to thank you for this. I was a young teen at the time of Led Zeppelin's greatest popularity. I remember how many male fans would both drool over and slut shame groupies, and openly talk about their rape fantasies. When I was a young soldier, I was raped by a young men I served with, and the content and tone of the stories the guys told prevented me from telling anyone for 35 years. The respectful and critical attention that you give to sexual abuse of girls by "Gods" (blech) moves us away from harm and shame to respect and value. Thank you.
The Art Assigment here on youtube has a video about "love the art, hate the artist" and i really liked her take on the matter. And asterisk is always needed when we celebrate the art of a person that commited things that we would condemn without a second thought.
In this case, its like poly said: this side of zeppelin must be talked about. It doesnt mean that people have to stop listening to them, applying that rule to every artist would very quickly cause a huge problem, but we cant keep hiding this things.
You can love wagner but you gotta know that he was basically a pre-nazi, you can like picasso but you have to accept that his treatment of women was terrifying and you can love zeppelin but you have to say how they abused their status to get their way as many times as they wanted.
you’re so good at editing videos it’s insane
I think videos like this is about the best you can do to address these issues. I'm in the same boat as you. It's tough. We have to realize that these dark chapters are just a reflection of a sickness in our culture. It's good that these chapters are brought out of the darkness. Regardless Zep will always be a major part of my musical life. They were really the 1st to show me a world beyond what was on the radio when I was a kid. Jimmy Paige was the main reason I wanted to play music in the first place. I turned out to be more of a drummer, but I do play some guitar and I don't know if I would have done any of it without seeing The Song Remains the Same on VHS. Thanks for this important video.
Honestly I think Page’s predatory actions just reflect his personality. There was most likely something wrong with him. He had bizarre obsessions and seemingly no regard for morality, and the heroin addiction didn’t help. I look up to the art Page made, but I don’t look up to who he is
If you look to Alister Crowley as a role model, it's not that big of a shock.
I dont think even AC went that far his youngest Scarlet Woman was 19, she ended up stabbing him..!
16:00 I appreciate this video and bring a focused and nuanced light to the problematic flaws of people generally treated as above the rest. However, the way I see it is this, your "what makes Bonham such a good drummer" is about the music styling. The skill, the notes, etc. It's educational and fascinating and bloating it with disclaimers about him as a person would seriously distract from the lessons and the thesis at hand. That being said, as a creator you can balance for it by having videos like this too. Putting it all in the same Playlist so people binging will see both. I always get concerned when historiogrophers or storytellers get caught up in trying to present a perfect view of a person. You can't. A story is a 2d look at a 3d world, it will always miss something. Multiple stories, multiple angles, thats how you present this stuff imo
"A story is a 2d look at a 3d world" I like that. Thank you.
Love the serie you made! Keep doing The good job!!
Quick Question: Which program you used to edit your videos? I love The old style and The color you did
Amazing series Polyphonic. This is a great deep dive into a variety of tough topics. Nice work sir.
I can't claim to offer a Zeppelin-specific solution here, but one best practice I've developed in cases of great art from flawed people who did awful things is to remember Artemisia Gentileschi. She was a brilliant 17th-century painter in the style of Caravaggio, but for centuries she was remembered primarily for being assaulted as a teenager by a minor painter who was supposed to be mentoring her. (There was a public trial and the transcripts are WILD.) Recently, art historians have re-examined her art and she's now considered one of the finest artists of her generation.
For Artemisia, things mostly worked out. But we know that's not how it goes for a lot of young victims, especially those who lack the power of the Gentileschi family. Less powerful victims may end up silenced or dead. So when I look at great art produced by someone who did awful things, I remind myself that the price of this art may be an Artemisia, or many of them, and all the art they might have made. It adds perspective, even when it's hard to feel sympathy for a potentially nameless teenage girl.
I've seen paintings by the man who assaulted Artemisia Gentileschi. Her paintings are better than his. And we could have had a world without them. What was lost when those "baby groupies" were harmed?
Something to remember.
As always, superb work by Polyphonic here. The background prep, writing, thoroughness, and production...just incredible. And it's great to see the thoughtful and sometimes painful comments in the wake of this excellent and challenging video. I don't have anything all that original to add to the discussion, and the internal struggle that comes from admiring the art or other work of a person or group and learning about things they did as people...it's awful at times. Led Zeppelin's music is amongst the best I've ever heard, and I've listened to them consistently now for over four decades. What do I do with my sincere love of their work in light of the things they've done? I have the same inner struggle with certain filmmakers, visual artists, literary artists, and so on. I still seek an answer regarding how to reconcile this conflict. Do I stop any activity that might enrich them somehow? Do I separate the artist from the work? What about when the artist is no longer living, can I go back to their work? I don't know.
It's vital that we work through these contradictions and face whatever truth we might have to face about this topic. I'm very grateful to Noah for this essential work.
You were the first RUclips channel I ever subscribed to! You have such a talent for editing and music analysis!
I love that literally no one has to say something other than positive things for John Paul Jones.
You got it totally right on the money. You've just echoed of what I've been feeling.
This comes from a musician that actually had a very strange mystical and scary experience when I met Jimmy Page in 1986 when I shook his hand at the back of the stage in Houston, as the Firm was rehearsing 12 noon.
Do tell.
@@christar9527he won't.. because it never happened 😂
2023: I've been a drummer since 1964, when I was 12.
Great Great Music from those days. I still play drums and guitar. I loved and love their music along with that of many other bands from those times. It has been a wonderful trip.
Thanks and Best Regards. I just found you and subscribed today.
2:00 love the intro mix you did. Immigrant Song scream with Achilles riff with Echo.
Hits so hard.
Would love a full remix of this.
None of this is new, but it’s impact never lessens when told again. In fact, it’s retelling helps those who are victims of abuse or are currently in a situation that requires intervention. So thanks for this. 🙏🏼
Artists who choose a lifestyle of bohemian decadence bear a personal responsibility to society if that behavior victimizes the impressionable. It’s abusing the power that comes with public adoration.
Morality doesn’t change across generations or certain periods of time. Whether it’s “flower power free love” or “gangsta” or “hipster”, whatever age identifiers we chose in fandom, it doesn’t allow free reign over immoral behavior simply because our music heroes are “cool”.
Whatever artistic license our music heroes may choose, it doesn’t give them license to be immoral douchebags - simply because their popularity gave them the power to do so.
Subscribed
Morality doesn't change across generations or periods of time? Citation needed.
I get what I think you're trying to say, but morality always changes, very much across generations.
@@wyattgranger5870 Morality doesn’t change because it’s connected to human nature, as Aristotle proves. What changes is people’s attitude towards morality. By nature people are selfish and make excuses to adapt morality to what they think benefits them.
It’s ethics that changes - as we evolve and we develop knowledge. What most people call their morality, is their ethic. Think of your ethic as your "best current guess" of what is not immoral. Often, ethic is simply society's best current justification for its own immorality. Ethics based on what is culturally acceptable, but not on our own innate sense of morality.
What I probably failed to explain clearly was that morality in its true sense should be something unflinching and non-compromisable dictate of life.
This whole "Led Zeppelin Month" might just be your magnum opus
Maybe. There are other good shows on the channel. I am a huge fan of Pink Floyd and their Dark Side of the Moon album. It really blows my mind in how deep and profound the lyrics are. Polyphonic has a great video series about this album. I highly recommend it to anyone that is interested in the album. That would be another candidate for a magnum opus of Polyphonic.
Great video. The one detail missing is the 1977 incident in Oakland detailed in Bill Graham Presents (admittedly from Mr. Graham's perspective).
Man, do I miss the old/regular intro of your videos. I'm really used to this song and like it a lot actually.
Honestly I had no idea about this because I don’t really research into the bands I listen to, or even listen to the lyrics that much. I mostly just like the melody and that’s all music really is to me. The sounds are satisfying to listen to, and I don’t really care who exactly is creating them. But everyone is different…
It sounds like you don't appreciate music very much. When I like a song I have to know the lyrics. I'm interested in the band and the music. You could say I appreciate everything about music.
@@coyleigh I mean I’ve been playing guitar almost every day for over a year now (16 months), which is an instrument I tried several times before to play but finally stuck with it enough to get past the first few hurdles. I’ve been saving up to get an electric and also a basic drum set for both me and my nephew. I can play a handful of Led Zeppelin songs fully and about a dozen partially, “Bron-Y-Aur-Stomp” is what got me into guitar and I can play that song fully, but not 100% flawlessly yet. I’ve been working on a small project to play a certain set of relatively obscure songs from a game I like on acoustic and I even found out how to play one of them by ear and am working on the tabs for that one since they currently don’t exist as far as I know. I listen to music daily, and not just have it on in the background, I thoroughly listen to the melody on its own. Obviously I catch lyrics, and vocals are part of the melody itself, but I just don’t really care what the lyrics say nearly as much as I care about how good the melody is. You can have a song with great lyrics, and if its melody is shit I’m not gonna listen to it. Who plays the song or comes up with the melody is also irrelevant, as a good melody is a good melody.
I definitely appreciate music itself, I just don’t care about lyrics or the band. I think that’s a fair opinion to have and just because I don’t have an interest in EVERY aspect of music doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate it. If you’re a musician or an artist in general you should know that everyone is inspired by different things within a given subject and there isn’t a “wrong” way to appreciate something lol.
Sleepshouter. I paint pictures while listening to music. I'm not interested in the morality of composers. Art would be very poor if we removed everyone who behaved badly. Did you know that Caravaggio killed a man?
The parents of those poor underage groupies are just as guilty.
Amazing series, I love this channel! Great work
I always wondered how the Wilson sisters could write a song like “Barracuda” and at the same time celebrate Led Zeppelin. The Kennedy Center Honors were too much for me.
It's not that hard to understand. IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME THEN. The same way that 15-20 years from now the youth will look at what your generation does and entirely vilify it and make claims onto your character. It's pretty lame tbh
This is similar to the discussion about the founding fathers of the USA. The new type of government they envisioned, and the lofty ideas they wrote into the founding documents need to be separated from the men themselves. They (for the most part) were flawed individuals. Yet, the country they formed and the ideals they espoused are truly remarkable.
Agreed! Just getting back from a trip to D.C. and visiting Mount Vernon, I was appalled that George Washington had 200 slaves. None of the history books that I read ever mentioned that he had that many. In actuality, he was a plantation owner. And Martha was a rich widow who funded the revolution. Didn't know that either!
Wow he actually had a Dennis Reynolds "Golden God" moment?
That's what inspired the "Golden gid" Dennis moment.
incredible and touching video bro, i am always thinking about everything you said but i couldn't put it in worlds like these, thanks for it, i will use this thoughts and reflections to the rest of my life ❤
What an incredible series!! Thank you
Great job as always! Can't wait for the next one.
I love the aspect ratio! (and the content)
The best video essay you’ve put out to date
To single out Led Zeppelin for behavior that was broadly encouraged in that scene at the time which we would all consider horrible today is not really fair
🎯
Feminists hated Zeppelin
Thank you for speaking truth. I can tell how much you love the music, so I know this must have been a difficult video to make. It's infuriating and depressing that this type of behavior continues to this day with performers like R. Kelly & Drake
I'm very grateful that I had a pair of - but in no ways perfect, of course - grounded parents. I became a huge music freak at 14 - Elton was my first "musical love" - and subsequently a monster Zep fan. I heard and read about things like the mud shark episode, but I just chuckled, did a deep dive into the music (the production, the instruments/amps, the studios, engineers, etc...) and the other artistic aspects (album packaging, posters, etc...). Grant used the tried and true standard marketing technique of limited availability in order to whet the appetite of their consumers. Myths are not created by people who did the deeds. They are created by the people who document/report on those deeds.
i admire the courage of this piece. I have been an unconditional super fan of the music for over 40 years and have read and written extensively about them but have never seen the group (members, roadies, etc..) depicted as honestly, Kudos.
You touch this kind of topics with so much nuance. So compassionate.
When it comes to an issue like this, there are two paths that people often take. The first path is to cancel out the artist and their art completely. The other path is to ignore the artist's transgressions altogether and throw accountability out the window. I would argue that neither of them are correct. Because there's social context to their actions that cannot be ignored. While it's easy to simply *hate* Led Zeppelin, the fact is they were part of an entire culture and a society that *literally* treated famous male artists like gods. A culture that *literally encouraged* men to abuse their power. I'm not saying "times were different" as an excuse; I'm just saying it matters. It's an important piece of context. Because it wasn't just Led Zeppelin; it extended to Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, Rolling Stones, Marvin Gaye, David Bowie, Iggy Pop, Steven Tyler, Red Hot Chili Peppers; the list goes on and on and on. Famous male artists were quite literally treated like gods. Sex with minors was all but in the same category as drug abuse. Anything went. There was *no accountability.* Obviously, this lack of accountability is *no excuse* for the artists' actions, but does that mean their art has no value anymore? Not at all. These artists weren't inherently terrible people. It doesn't take a complete sociopath to do some terrible, exploitative things if there's no accountability for them. Led Zeppelin were the same flawed, wretched, impure human beings as the rest of us.
If anything, the art that they made should remind us that humanity is more complicated than Good vs Bad, or Saint vs Monster. People can make great art that touches the lives of millions while also exploiting and abusing their power. Both of those things can be true. It's complicated, but one doesn't necessarily cancel out the other.
Most importantly, though we *cannot* treat artists as something greater than human. We *cannot* refuse to hold them accountable.
A balanced assessment is a rare thing nowadays.
Is society so desperate that the individual will abandon rational thought for superiority? I'm pretty concerned about divisive thinking being the new norm. It's shocking how many people embrace such a polarized attitude. Maybe it's not as common as it looks. It makes me nervous though.
Peace.
Back in 1975 when I was 9 years old, there was a guy that I went to school with, a kid named Rocky. He was kind of a bully so I stayed away from him, but I do remember one day when Rocky came to school with a black eye. The scuttlebutt on the playground was his dad had punched him in the face. His dad was a big burly ex-marine who I believe had gone to Vietnam and probably was suffering from some pretty severe PTSD.The kids called his dad a "slap happy pappy." I remember people saying that his father beat all the members of his family pretty regularly. I also remember my parents having conversations about the neighbors. My mom would say "I think he beats the wife and kids". It would always inevitably end with "it's their family business" and end it at that. I also remember casual racism was pervasive and gay people didn't exist. Then you look at a lot of these pop/rock songs from that era with themes of misogyny and pedophilia and it makes sense for the American culture at that time. All this is out on display on Songs like "Hot Child in the City" by Nick Gilder. Or "Brown eyed girl." Or "You're, 16 you're beautiful, and your mine" sung on prime time television by Ringo Starr to a then underage Carrie Fisher. Cringy. So many other rock songs from this era were all basically about getting and using up a virgin girl. Thinking about all this in context, it seems like another planet.
I remember a few years back when the Me Too movement happened. I remember sitting there thinking "oh wait they're just talking about the casting couch." That's been an open secret for decades. I mean I always just thought and accepted that any attractive woman in Hollywood had had to f*** somebody to get where she was at. I realize now how horrible that is but for a long time it was just an accepted fact. Anyways basically we are in a new era. That was a different world and we don't live there anymore. And that's a good thing.
If you think we don’t live there any more you are dreaming. Do you see the way rappers and NBA/NFL players treat women. Do you see these cheesy losers on Instagram and Twitter exploiting themselves for views, how about the Kardaschians. They launched their careers on their knees and the mother is a pimp.
Your modest reflection rings out in our bells
In fact, I believe looking at them more as parents than idols, I try to tell the truth always since my mom is a impulsive liar, and my father is very proud of himself and it sometimes blinds him. A student should try to be aware of their teachers habits and flaws alongside their lessons to fully reflect on where they've grown.
That's it! We need some crazy ass Led Zeppelin biopic soon. This was a very insightful video man. Good stuff covered in this series
I started watching this vid thinking it would be about the band's mythology and how they cultivated it.... I'm glad it wasn't all about that! I'm glad we're talking about the problematic aspects of Zeppelin openly, and other bands of the time. I spent years avoiding Zeppelin because of their abust and struggling with the art vs the artist idea. I think, as you suggested, the solution is to be conscious of the language we use when we talk about bands like Zeppelin, and hold ourselves and the rest of our musical scenes to a higher standard
Still one of my favourite bands, and Bonham will always be one of my favourite drummers.
The best we can do is learn from the past. We can learn what circumstances led to what events. If we can analyse that, we know how we can do our best to avoid it in the future. It is sad that these things happened, but it's even sadder that these sort of things still happen today. We should've learned by now.
love your analysis, defenetly lots to think about
I've been thinking of getting a Led Zeppelin tattoo for a long time, as my mom who passed away a few years ago was a massive fan and we listened to a lot of music together when I was a kid. I wanted the zoso symbol but no longer did upon finding out that Page had a 14 year old girlfriend, so I decided that I could get Plant's feather, as he was my mom's favorite member anyway. This video is really making me think twice... I'm really torn
Get it anyway dude, its about the music not the story. Led Zeppelin sucked as people but the music they make makes me love them
Lucas, it is a homage to your mother, not to these specific traits these people had. I am, myself, massively fan of Zep’s music, knowing them to have been taken hostages by their zeitgeist and the showbiz. They were flawed, as most were. This does not diminish my admiration, but on the contrary: allows me to comprehend them as talented, flawed humans. My take? Get the tattoo.
@@Pencake2112 They're not gods , they are demons
@@user-rc1tq6cz4o yes, as people they are demons. I think that's why i like bands that don't have many controversies like rush.
@@andreborges2881 It should diminish your admiration, you shouldn't admire child molesters no matter how talented they may be , if you support men who harm children then you are part of the problem
this channel is genuinely one of my favourite channels, ever. i've noticed that the doors are very similar in the way of this "mythological storytelling", there are so many different accounts of one band that it's nearly impossible to tell what was true or not aside from videos and pictures. i just got into led zeppelin and i love their music, but you're entirely right, i should be holding them accountable. i like to think it's okay, but it's really not. what they did was disgusting, especially to minors. as a girl, i should be remembering these stories, and uplifting those harmed instead of those who harmed fellow women/girls.
I’ve never thought about this I’m glad you’re bringing it up
I've been trying to digest the information (despite of being a Led Zeppelin fan for several years, it was unknown to me). Great approach, sad, but hard to ignore. Regards mate!
I've only been a Zep fan since 1971; I remember the first time I ever heard Stairway to Heaven on the radio (it didn't actually make that much of an impression). I was also aware of the band's exploits. Even at the time, I thought "that's not right," but their music was so transcendent, I just pushed those qualms aside. The fact is, as Michael Herr said, Led Zeppelin wasn't a rock band, they were a mystery cult, and to be admitted, all you had to do was to buy an album. But, like Zeus raping Ledo, sometimes we just don't want to think about how our gods behave. In the end, I agreed with every single observation you made. Thank you.
Fantastic video. I think as we are now holding these people accountable that we used to collectively worship, we will all have to grapple with the unsavory past of many of the musicians and famous people we love. It almost seems unavoidable at this point.
I read somewhere that in the end times, everything you do or have done, everyone will know. Never understood that, but i get it now. The internet makes everything visible.
Thanks for this introspective commentary you offered, very cathartic.
Polyphonic => music commentary with a social lenes. I love it!
Great video. To me, my perspective comes down to my personal humanist philosophy: Worship humanity, never worship a human.
This is so true regarding celebrities, specifically Michael Jackson. Even if he wasn’t having relations with underage kids (which is hard to believe), it’s still highly inappropriate to having slumber parties with them, but he gets a pass because of his fame etc
Agree if the guy was the breadman parents wouldn't allowed his sons to sleep in his house, is still wrong
Excellent series mate.
congrats on 900k !
Great video. I was a huge Zep fan as a youngster, and to some point, I still am, but... This is big and cannot be ignored. Having said that, I think distinctions need to be made. Page was clearly a sicko obsessed with the dark side (Crowley and all that). And Plant simply could not get a grip on his narcissism. Bonham had serious issues as well. JPJ, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have participated in the debauchery (though you can never be too sure, but because of his character, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt). I should also add, that Led Zeppelin were by no means the only ones (or even the first ones) to engage in this kind of behavior. The Stones preceded them by a number of years, and far out-lived them, and probably outdid them as well.
I also think you have to contextualize things. We're talking about a period in history that brought about the sexual revolution, women's lib, rebellion against the dominant culture, etc. This is not to excuse any of this. Obviously, Zeppelin made a big contribution to that culture, both musically and otherwise, but they didn't create it out of thin air. Zeppelin was post-hippie revolution. Young girls had already been leaving home at a very early age and sleeping around and doing drugs, etc., for a number of years. And by the way, if anybody thinks this sort of thing isn't going on today, they had better take a look again. It's just done more discreetly because of the potential legal consequences. We now know that it's been going on in Hollywood for decades (complete with blackmail of actresses for parts in films, and child-abuse of not only little girls, but little boys as well).
How much of all that is reflected in Zeppelin's music is debatable, but obviously, a good part of it does show up. In fact, their first hit (Whole lotta love) is for all purposes and intents a musical representation of sexual intercourse. I can't listen to some of their stuff anymore. I generally stick to their more wholesome and artistically edifying material.
@cistybrown1994
Second biggest selling rock band ever and the most consistently influential. No big deal? 😂
can’t separate the art from the artist
the acoustic song that pays on the backgorund, where can I find it?
Excellent video as always.
Gotta love it when everyone gets on their moral high horse, and act like we’re not all humans. How about we just love the music and mystique?
You can’t just say “love music and mystique” and excuse their horrible actions. Page is an extraordinary guitarist, but he was and still is a horrible person. Same with most rock groups
I don't listen to Led Zeppelin much these days, but I do listen to David Bowie and Michael Jackson periodically. When I think about the kind of people they ended up being, it still feels odd -- almost dirty -- to listen to their music. But the music itself was always so good, and some of it tells amazing stories! It really is difficult to reconcile your feelings about the creators when they have produced many wonderful works -- especially ones that you grew up with -- but you know that they were deeply troubled, flawed, or even disgusting human beings.
but the accuses towards mj was fake though
But Michael didn’t do it, lol.
Michael Jackson was a victim, not an oppressor. His father Joe destroyed him.
@@luxekook But how can you know for sure, were you friends with him
@@johannsebastianbach108 you don't know that unless you knew him as a friend or a relative
Fantastic video. Thank you so much for talking about this
So good! as ol´Plant would say! The most insightfull episode so far and i follow your videos since the bonham video. Makes you think about where you set your line when you apreciate the art and ignore the artist.
Thank you so much for making this video! Led Zeppelin is my favorite band of all time, yet I did not know how to tackle this conversation about artists and their abuse of power. The same question has troubled me in the case of Michael Jackson, who's music helped me open up (I was very socially awkward and shy as a kid lol) and start dancing freely. Your video really helped me understand how to tackle this issue that is seen repeating with so many artists.
michael jackson was proven inncoent tho
So brave of you to confront Zeppelin’s most troublesome aspects. I’m sure many in the comments will pillory you for it, but know that I-and most others-support you. Thank you.
"so brave of you" Jesus, definition of bravery has sure changed since I survived the war
@@DrVonNostrand ohh shut up
Excellent video, with great clips, and analysis. I like how you articulate your genuine struggle in balancing fandom/love for the artists' work and the troubling elements you examine - and how, maybe, the struggle is a hopeless one.
Polyphonic, what is the music behind this post? It sounds great but I can't hear it enough to place it in my mind?
Important video and conversation. Being a famous influential person does not grant you the right to ignore social and legal standards about how to treat other people.
I was in high school when Zep spent hours on my turntable. Those lyrics reflected the times. I'm old enough now to be able to reject the lyrical content and still love the music. In the early seventies, when I was in high school, we just swallowed the lyrics without thinking about it. If someone's parents objected, we gave no thought to why. They were wrong. We were rebelling. Would it have mattered if the critique had focused on misogynistic lyrics rather than on how loud the music was, the long hair, the tight jeans, and the optics of rock and roll?
I'm sure there were critics who did just that, but I was too busy working at the grocery store, cranking it up to 11, getting high, and suffering the angst of hormone driven first loves to think about intellectual criticism.
Zep posed a bigger problem than the Beatles for many parents, yet the Beatles' Run for Your Life lyrics are horrible. "I'd rather see you dead, little girl, than to be with another man..." In a race to the bottom, I prefer hearing that a big legged woman ain't got no soul. At least she's not dead.
We will always have a complicated relationship to history. I don't excuse black face. I don't excuse gay bashing. The misogyny of rap is worse. We have acknowledged the existence of domestic violence. We've had decades to bring a little more enlightenment to our lives - yet collectively we have supported the inexcusable with our dollars despite what our higher selves know.
I can listen to Zep without feeling guilty. I can be very grateful that we have a better understanding of addiction. Yes, there is still a stigma, but help is much more readily available. (That Keith Richards and Jimmy Page are still alive is absolute proof that life is not fair.)
I have a hard time when I hear Ringo singing you're 16, you're beautiful, and you're mine - when he's in his seventies. Ewwww...
I grew up as a teenager in the 70s and was a huge LZ fan. It was the mythological themes and the occult feeling that intrigued me. I think they were totally original and used the music of other artists as influence only. Still love them to this day!!!
"I think they were totally original and used the music of other artists as influence only."
What a steaming pile of horseshit !!!!
Led Zeppelin literally took other people's music and slapped their names on it as if they were the song's writers.
Just look at the song writing credits on Zeppelin's original albums, and look at the song-writing credits on the Zeppelin re-issues.
Jimmy Page and his fellow plagiarists gave credit where credit is due only when major litigation came their way.
Led Zeppelin were plagiarists, and that's a proven fact.
No amount of sycophantic bullshit from Dead Zeppelin fan boys will change the facts !
There are hundreds of videos showing how led zeppelin stole from other artis , entire songs not just influences
They're anything but original
@@valley_robotcry
This is a very important and honest appraisal. I am not a "direct" Zepplin fan like most of you here, but I came to appreciate their work at a later stage in my life - largely through their influence on my own cultural icon, Tori Amos. What I feel might give some answers to the questions raised in this video is that Zepplin were part of a cultural zeitgeist which was ostensibly Liberal and henceforth inclusive of the excesses and abuses that are documented in this video. When I was a young student the influence of this zeitgeist was still present, but another was being born, that heralded by Madonna, Tori Amos, and later by Alanis Morissette. Now this zeitgeist had a very different energy and impact to the one of Led Zepplin. As a young man I encountered the influence of Zepplin zeitgeist, rejected it, and embraced the dynamic of the latter one. Needless to say this brought about influences in my life just as the Zepplin zeitgeist has impacted the consciousness of many people here. I am not saying that one zeitgeist is superior to the other, but rather that they have different impacts. What I feel we can see in this, is that the questions raised in this video can be answered in the light of the cultural context of the Zepplin zeitgeist and its affect on society as a whole, as well as in the light of the important moral subjects raised in this video.
Hey, proud of you for choosing to walk down this hard road! It’s not easy to be both inspired and repulsed by something, but choosing to seek out the good and lovely things of the world while still decrying the wicked will surely help make it a better place. Keep it up.
It's so good to listen to a person who is a fan of Led Zeppelin talking about these issues, because often I see fans just pretending it never happened or it doesn't matter, or people who talk about it through complete hate. But I am a woman who loves Led Zeppelin and I never knew how to reconcilie these things. So it's a relief to have someone else talking about it, even of there are no real answers in the end.
8:23
JPJ flippin the bird at someone
Great video, my dude. Love your philosophy on culture at the time.