Lesbian conception through blood magic? I am here for it, apart from them both ending up dead. Maybe Lyanna and Ashara aren't dead and ran off together to the Summer Isles where they could love each other openly for the rest of their long happy lives!
6:30 I swear, GRRM answers basically every question of ASOIAF like this, just listing what the in-setting knowledge is rather than giving an out-of-universe definitive answer. Even a question like "What colour is the sky on a sunny day in Westeros?" would be met with "Well when people look at it they see a blue" rather than "The sky is blue"...
Ashara is Jyanna Reed, Howland Reed's wife. H+A=M&J Howland was bunking with Ned in his tent at the tourney, which is where her and Howl could've first hooked up. Witnesses would see her entering Ned's tent, yes, but that wasn't who she was there to see. Greywater Watch is a moving castle - a reference to Howl's moving castle - and in the book and film Howl catches a falling star (Starfall). Also, Howland names Meera his heir to Greywater Watch. Although Meera is older, a daughter inheriting over a son would still be out of the norm in the North, even with Jojen's constant death premonitions telling him he isn't gonna live to adulthood, but it would be perfectly acceptable in Dorne.
How is based on Howl's moving castle exactly? Just because its said the castle moves doesn't mean that its a link and I'm sure grrm would have mentioned it
@Ashbrash1998 it's a reference to Howls Moving Castle. George has references to all kinds of books, films and songs he likes. From Grateful Dead to Ridley Scott's Alien, Lovecraft, Conan, Elric of Melnibone, Dune, the Godfather. He is not subtle with his tips of the hat to other writers and creators.
I go with the Jyanna Reed theory. There's literally no other reason the Reed kids would be told the Harrenhal story if it's not a How I Met Your Mother story. No one else ever mentions The Knight of the Laughing Tree. Whymention Ashara at all in the story if it's just some woman who died over a decade ago. There's also the fact that Meera, not Jojen is mentioned as Howland's heir. That's a Dornish custom.
Eddard actually said to Kat:. "never ask me about Jon". Jon? The subject matter was Ashara, not Jon. Why mention Jon unless the two are somehow connected?
I think Ashara was more involved than we could tell at present in Rhaegar's pre-Rebellion scheming. As Elia's only named Lady and Arthur's sister, she would be the perfect go-between and confidante. Martin also commented that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor during the Rebellion, so I wonder what that was about? Jon is definitely too young to be Harrenhall baby, that's just simple maths. Yet, Ashara was sent away from court because she was pregnant (or was that a good lie to have a loyal ally placed back at Starfall?). She was probably at Starfall for months afterwards while the Rebellion got started. And if she had a daughter that wasn't stillborn, my guess would be Allyria Dayne, who is clearly much, much younger than her siblings. Maybe her grandparents secretly adopted her? Or she could a child from a second wife, and a half-sister to Ashara and Arthur (and their unnamed older brother). Martin also confirmed that Brandon Stark left no illegitimate sons, but there could be a daughter (I am paraphrasing). So, Allyria could be the Stark-Dayne baby, if we really need one. I can also see her as the point of contact between the Tower of Joy and Starfall- I mean, someone had to be supplying the group of 4 with food and laundry, etc. It is also possible that she was the source of information about Lyanna's whereabouts. As Ned going there resulted in Arthur's death, this could be another misery for her that led her to jump off the tower. It's possible that the great love of Ashara and Ned is a story at Starfall only because Ned went there to return Arthur's sword. Because in the same breath that little Ned talkes about their great love, he asserts that Jon Snow was their servant's son. This sounds like a mix of gossip that was repeated many times. Some people favouring Ashara as the mother, say that Jon being half-Dayne would give him rights to Dawn, and thus be narratively valid. However, it is far more likely that Ned Dayne was supposed to be the one to wield it after the 5 year time skip and bring it North with him. Jon can pick up Dawn and use it, even if he's not a Dayne, it won't burn his fingers. Now it's more popular to think that Darkstar will steal it and be the way the sword leaves Dorne as Ned is still a boy of 12. Also, deconstructing overused tropes requires you to do them first, so Jon not being a secret prince, only to turn out to not be a secret prince, is not it. Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is not 'too obvious', and Martin's treatment of this fact will be the deconstruction and subversion of expectations. But Jon being half Dayne has no bearing on the plot, so there is no reason whatsoever to keep it secret, even from Robert. Ashara was pretty, Bobby B would probably congratulate Ned and move on. I don't see a point for Martin to make such a secret from information that's irrelevant completely. And if Jon's mother doesn't matter, why not make him a straightforward bastard of Ned's by the fisherman's daughter. His hero journey would still be different to all fantasy tropes then because we know 100% he's nothing "special" to start with. I also don't believe she is the true mother of Dany (who is 8-9 months younger than Jon even; and Rhaella was stuck on Dragonstone her entire pregnancy witnessedby Viserys, who never, even at his worst, accused Dany of being a bastard or a changeling) or F(a)egon's. And although, I find the Howland/Ashara theory interesting to listen to (In Deep Geek has a good video on it), personally I believe she is really dead, like many other people who actually did die.
"Ned thinks about her brother more." A simple matter, my friend: You see, Arthur and Ashara are actually crossdressing alternate identities of the same Dayne and also both secret Targaryen horses.
I wish this touched on the ashara+howland theory. It is super speculative but I love it! (and what kind of name is jyanna?) It makes sense then that Jojen and Meera essentially share with bran a "how I met your mother" story told by their father, and why they've heard the story so many times but Ned never thinks or talks about Ashara. In deep geek has a good video laying out the evidence, would love your take!
Except Jojen and Meera were *surprised* Ned never told the story to his children; why would that be unless the story directly pertained to Ned and would be something he would tell his children?
Meaby it has to do with the knight of the laughing tree who most likely is Lyanna and the reason why Lyanna and Rhagar originally meet. Ned would probably know this so the story might be emotionly difficult for Ned@@X525Crossfire
@@X525Crossfire I think it's because Ned, after bringing Arthur Dayne's sword back to Starfall, secretly smuggled Ashara out of Dorne (perhaps as far as bringing her all the way to Greywater Watch). It's the reason Ned and Howland are such good friends but it's also painful for Ned because he, too, was in love with Ashara. Howland tells the story to highlight Ned's involvement in him and Ashara getting together, seeing it as a mark of their friendship, but Ned doesn't talk about it because it reminds him of his heartbreak.
The strongest evidence by far of Ashara not being Jon's mother is that Cat believes she is. But I do wonder about her place in the story. Barristan bringing her up that much all the way in book 5 only as a tie back seems so thin.
Cat and Cersei thinking that actually points towards Ned and Ashara having an ongoing relationship. Harrenhall happened at least a year and a half after Harrenhall.
Nice video covering Ashara. One point I disagree with you on, is her character overall being a red herring. My main reason for this is Beric Donadarrion's squire, Edric Dayne. He's a Dayne, and he's named after Ned. The Dayne's should hate Ned for killing Arthur, yet they name the heir to the House after him. I don' t know what it could be that earned Ned such respect with the Dayne's despite killing Arthur. A red herring doesn't address this at all, and Martin writes in Edric specifically to bring our attention to it. My guess is Brandon is the one who impregnated Ashara and Ned's the one who cleaned up after him. If we ever get future books from Martin, I definitely expect to get more on Ashara.
The other speculation I've read concerning Ashara Dayne is that Allyria Dayne is really her daughter not her sister. I don't know if the time fits, but it is an interesting idea. I am inclined to think that she might be Septa Lemore & that Fake Aegon is her son, but I'm not sure about the father.
@@queenxx1690 are we ever told, specifically, how old Allyria is? it seems the betrothal was a long thing, like you would do if the bride was quite young.
@@queenxx1690 Betrothed. We're never given an age. There was no reason to wait if she were old enough, and even less if she's too old to be Ashara's daughter.
Jon being half Dayne would have a HUGE impact on the story.. mainly, he would be eligible to be The Sword of the Morning, and carry Dawn. Which is possibly Lightbringer. Just saying. It def would have an impact on the story either way.
Part of the nights watch vows are "The light that Brings the Dawn", I believe those are going to be the Dayne house words. Referencing to their part in the war for the Dawn/lightbringer.
@@lanestapp2 "the order of the Greenhand" is a youtube channel with great videos breaking it all down. I watched the entire show before reading the books and when I finished the books I couldnt believe how little evidence there was for R+L=J. Way more evidence for Ned and Ashara being jons parents
@@jacks6235 Ya, I'm very familiar with them. And you're totally right about the lack of evidence. One of the biggest points of evidence the rlj believers follow is the blue winter rose in the wall. I think Aegon is going north and that's going to be a sign for him.
This video is pointless, if you rearrange the letters of Ashara Dane and Google translate it into 617 different languages and then back to English, you get LIVER AND ONIONS, meaning Ashara Dane is actually STRONG BELWAS
I don’t think Ashara had a kid, or at least not one that lived. I think her and Ned had a romance at the Tourney but were soon forced to opposite sides of the war. Then Ned has to marry another woman, ruining any chance that they might have. Then Ashara presumably loses her brother to the blade of the man she loves. In her grief she kills herself. It’s the kind of tragic doomed love story that George likes to write. The Dayne’s respect Ned because Ned paid proper honors to Arthur and their house by coming to Starfall with Dawn and not claiming it as a prize as most people would have done.
And for taking care of Jon Snow and raising him as his own son for his safety. Protecting the heir would get you a lot of sympathy after what happened with the other Targ kids. Plus Ned was likely wounded and certainly traumatized by war. Besides in this setting people know the Kingsgaurd have to obey and might not blame Ned.
Ashara actually fell in love with Howland at Tourney and not Ned and/or Brandon, and faked her death after the war to runaway with Howland, and Jojen and Meera are Howland and Asharas children. Thats my headcanon and no one can tell me otherwise. I do hope its actually true though.
She’s clearly Darkstar’s mother so no other theory works. (I’ve also heard this theory and really like it! Didn’t discuss it here because I thought it’d fit in better for a potential future video on Howland.)
this is my favorite Ashara theory by a long shot. the best piece of evidence IMO is that in the Harrenhall story Howland is called “the lad” and Ashara is “the maid” whereas every other character has a more specific title..
Ashara eloping to Greywater Watch with Howland Reed is a great theory. I have been hoping that Howland Reed would turn up in the story, but maybe it's just as well to leave it as a mystery.
I have a feeling that Ashara wasn't the victim of a surprise baby or secret marriage (you can only have so many tbf) I think she knew ALOT more than people assume she did. A common throught for another character she was close to, Elia Martell. I believe she had Rhaegar's private confidence (as shown in Dany's vision with him telling her about a Song if Ice and fire which NOONE knew about) and that Ashara may have been the go between Lyanna. Because of a Stark had dishonored her, why would her older brother nickname his son Ned? Why would Edric/"Ned" be told that Jon Snow and him had the same wetnurse "Wylla"? Why have so much respect for Ned when he supposedly killed a family member and drove another to suicide? The only way it makes sense is because Ned and no Stark were responsible in any way, she either died because of other reasons (heck she lost her brother, Elia and her children) or she might still be alive.
Bruh, Ashara Dayne is most definitely alive and she's definitely shacked up with Howland Reed (who's children definitely related a story to Bran that CERTAINLY sounded like Reed was viewing a lady he was infatuated with as he told this story to this children).
I don't know if I'm crazy or something like that, but to me it was very clear while reading that Ashara and Ned had a thing, like everytime she is mentioned is because of this supposed romance between the two. Cat and Cersei think she is Jon's mother, Arya learns about her as this tragic woman who loved Ned, and Meera and Jojen telling that story to Bran never felt like a "How I Met You Mother" story as some people say, to me they mentioned Ashara and asked Bran about it because in their minds Ashara was the woman Ned loved before Cat, so they were surprised that Ned never mentioned her or told that story (also the story had a lot important stuff related to the Starks that go beyond Ashara, so it would make sense for Ned to tell his kids). I do find it odd that Ned doesn't think about her, however he as a character was all about honor and duty, I can easily see Ned moving on from her after marrying Cat. Also, Ned was a very problematic POV character because he knew too much and had a lot of answers for a lot of things that could not be revealed at that point in the story, like he never thinks about Jon as a Targaryen, and even when he is alone in prison at the verge of death his memories about the Tower of Joy and his promise to Lyanna are all vague, and it's vague on porpuse because, well, it was the first book and George didn't want us to know about any of that yet.
The one narrative element I like about Ashara being Jon’s mother is it makes him a candidate to be the new Sword of the Morning, which solves some holes in the Azor Ahai prophecy (and maybe creates some new holes?)
Not to mention, I feel pretty strongly that theDayne's house words are going to be "The light that Brings the Dawn" in reference to their sword and The Nights watch vows.
I think what the truth is is that Ned and Ashara genuinely really really liked each other, maybe even loved each other as much as they could based on how much they interacted, but they could never act on it. I like to think Ashara in a moment of grief and pain following the death of Elia and Arthur (and potentially Brandon Stark earlier?) wanted to run away with Ned. Raise Lyanna's (and maybe baby Darkstar to acknowledge your off the cuff theory) child together and marry far far far away from Westeros. Ned being a man of honor could never do that to Catelyn and Robb. That was the final thing she thought she might live for and threw herself from Starfall. Would make sense why the Daynes don't have a problem with Ned and why Ned refuses to let anyone to speak about her. Ned couldn't have known she'd do that so the Daynes aren't mad and Ned is still hurt by it so wants nobody to speak on it.
I am very fond of how you Chapter out your videos. I always watch start to finish, but it just feels nice, you know? You have nicely paced scripts and patter
I think that Ashara might really be alive because her death is hella suspicious. I think she'll end up fulfilling a "Lady in the Lake" trope by being the one who informs Jon Snow of his true parentage, and giving him Dawn.
Personally, I think that Ashara and Howland Reed got together. We're told that Ashara and Ned danced at Harrenhal, but fail to remember that she danced with several people. In Howland's story of the event to his kids, everyone is described by their house sigil, except for himself, "The Crannogman" and Ashara, "The Maiden (with purple eyes)." Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia, and was the brother to Rhaegar's closest friend and kingsguard, Arthur, so it's not unreasonable that she was aware of what was happening with him and Lyanna. After Robert's Rebellion and his subsequent crowning, Ashara would have to disappear for her own protection, like many other Rhaegar supporters, so it's not unlikely that she had her death faked, the story being that she threw herself into the Torrentine river with greif in her heart for her brother and deceased child. Although we are told that Arthur would've killed Ned "if not for Howland", we're told that Ned took the fall for killing Ser Dayne, clearly to divert the blame from Howland to himself. It stands to reason that it could be arranged that Howland and Ashara run off to The Neck together, where they would sire two children together. Note that whilst we haven't met Howland in the story yet, we also haven't met Meera and Jojen's mother, either. Admittedly, we are told that Howland married a Lady "Jyana" Reed, but considering how there is literally no information about her, for the purposes of this theory, and with other characters such as Griff, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Jyana may actually be Ashara in hiding. Their names do also sound similar. The ancient Northern blood of the Reed's, as well as the Dayne's could also go some way to explain Jojen's aptitude as a Greenseer. Take into consideration also that it's Meera, not Jojen, who is the heir of Greywater Watch. Everywhere else in Westeros, it's the eldest male who inherits from their lord-parents, except for Dorne, where it's simply the eldest, regardless of gender. Perhaos something that Ashara, who hails from Dorne, might've wished for. I've had these thoughts for a while, but there's an excellent video by In Deep Geek, which goes into even more detail regarding the theory, and Ashara's whereabouts.
One thing Ive not heard a theory about is what the plan was for Jon before the tower of joy. Surely something was being planned for one of the last royals. It's possible the Daynes disagreed on what should be done and Author was in on a different plan than Ashara. They may not have been on great terms.
This is actually one amazing question to ask! There is a small group of people who knew that a new Targaryen was about to be born, but what they were planning to do after?
@MyCarnageExtreme Families being in conflict is a major theme of the series. I doubt the Daynes are entirely on the same page. Given that there were three (!) Kingsgaurd at the tower we can probably infer that Lyanna wasn't able to be moved or had some sort of complication. After Jon was born they likely were planning on moving him to Essos. Whatever the plan was, Ned and crew rather strongly disagreed with it. Otherwise, why would they have fought to the death? The Daynes likely took pity on Ned and Howland when they arrived, and no wonder. Two broken young men with a baby in arms. Only a monster would have executed these poor wounded young men. I suspect Ashara was a big reason they they were given mercy.
I know you don’t think Ashar is Sepra Lemore since Tyrion doesn’t mention her purple eyes, however if you look at Tyrion previous chapters, he barely mention color eyes from women, including to people he slept with.
The wording of the Barristan POV kinda stands out to me. He thinks about how Ashara threw herself from a tower “mad with grief for the child she had lost and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal” . He thinks “might she have looked to me instead of Stark?”. “Looked to” implies turn to for aid, advice or comfort. So it seems to me that “the man who dishonored her” is someone else. Barristan appears to respect Ned. He tells Dany how Ned disagreed with Robert about having Dany killed. His interactions with Ned and thoughts about him show no hint of resentment. I would think if Ned “dishonored” Ashara, Barristan would think ill of him. Also I want to point out that Ned was so shy his older brother had to ask Ashara to dance for him. Then Ned slept with her shortly after? Doesn’t seem too likely. Then there’s the conversation between Ned Dayne and Arya. Put it together with what we know and we get: Ned Stark kills Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy, then heads to Starfall, tells the Dayne family he killed Arthur, gives them back their ancestral sword, introduces Willa the baby momma and baby John, tells them he’s gotta get back to his wife and their true born son. Okay, bye. Ashara was so in love with Ned that she then jumped off a tower to her death. Fast forward a few years and Arthur and Ashara’s brother has a new baby and goes “think I’ll call him Ned”. Seems off…Anything Ned Dayne thinks comes from his family. His family are in a position to actually know. They are spreading the idea that Willa is Jon Snow’s mother, but if that were true it would be unusual that they respect him enough to name the heir of house Dayne after him. Also the fact that Willa went back down to Starfall and was Ned Dayne’s wet nurse implies that they knew her. She was from there so she just came back to them. They know she’s not the mother. They are trying to cover for Ned, they know who Jon actually is. They probably know who the father of Ashara’s baby is. My thought is that it’s Oberyn. Elia and Oberyn were close, Ashara was Elia’s lady in waiting, they knew each other. They danced together at Harrenhal and we know that Oberyn had lots of bastards. Somebody on a RUclips channel suggested the possibility of Allyria being Ashara’s daughter instead of her sister and I think that kinda fits with my oberyn idea. We don’t know much about her other than her being engaged to Beric. Beric doesn’t even remember what she looked like. Her age isn’t mentioned. Maybe the Daynes claimed her as their own so Oberyn wouldn’t take her. By that time he’s had the first four sandsnakes, maybe it’s a known thing that he takes them. There’s quite a few mentions of Ashara, I kinda doubt she’s just a red herring. I still kinda like her as septa Lemoore despite that theory’s problems.
I'd say, Jon being Asharas while being eligible as sword of the morning/weilder of the actual lightbringer would be a far better story. Rather than fish guy hides his wife for some reason.
Arthur Dayne and Ashara Dayne were in an incestuous relationship. Ned found out and didn't tell anyone, hence why they like him so much. It would also explain the stillbirth and why Ashara killed herself after finding out about Arthur's death. Plus they are of Valyrian origin so it's not unheard of in their ancestry. Arthur and Ashara were both at court for a time so logistically it makes sense and it could also mirror Jaime and Cersei's relationship. It could also be why Ned decided to show mercy to Cersei, because he recalled how it went down with Ashara and Arthur.
They are not of Valyrian origin. House Dayne is almost as old as House Stark, and that is milennia before Valyria. The Starks had been kings for a long time when the Valyrians were still herding sheep. They have the features, but the most common theory I've seen for that is the Great Empire of the Dawn. House Hightower is very similar in that regard.
I’m a R + L = D person and the hardest part to explain is the blue rose thing. I do have a roundabout explanation that checks out, but it’s probably too long for a comment. But my key point that I wanna push: Why is Lyanna the only one who can like blue roses? What if Ashara liked blue roses too? What if in taking down the ToJ a bunch of blue roses filled the air and make Ned think of Ashara. What if this is the catalyst for Ned to decide to do a baby swap. This would put Jon and Dany of the paths they’re currently following, where as without the baby swap they’d be very different people.
and I am R+A=D why because Ashara had stillborn daughter not son and what if stillborn was changed to stormborn or why Barristan says that Dany has Ashara eyes not that it looks similar that they are the same as if he was looking at her daughter and Dany weir lemon tree and red doors who are probably in Dorne in Starfall
What I find interesting (and I say this as a rather casual fan) is that part of the R+L=J story as seen in the show GOT is that Catelyn thought Ned had screwed around and brought home bastard Jon, but in the end, it turns out Jon isn't Ned's son, so Ned was innocent. It complicates that "redemption" story if the truth is that Ned did have an affair with Ashara, did father a bastard, so he feels guilty that Catelyn's suspicions are true--but Jon is not that bastard.
8:24 Ashara being Lemore could add to the story because perhaps when Dany and fAegon finally meet Barriston will betray Danny and side with the woman he used to love… though I agree this is unlikely given Tyrion never mentioned her eyes being purple
We might be cooking with *GAS* on the N + A = GD theory. Think about it; Ned demands that "her name not be mentioned in Winterfell again" when Cat asks him about Ashara being Jon's mother. So Ashara *is* a sore spot for Ned, that's a fact. Edric Dayne tells Arya that a wetnurse named Wylla was "mother of Ned Starks bastard" he says this because she breastfed them both when young. He also says Ashara and Ned were in love. Robert asks Ned who his bastard's mother is and Ned says 'Wylla' while "looking away" meaning honorable Ned is likely lying. But why does Ned know the exact name of a Dayne wetnurse? Ned and Ashara make Gerold. Ned comes back with Dawn. Ashara commits suicide. Gerold grows up without either parents, making him twice as edgy as Jon Snow, Wylla breastfed him. Edric mistakes Gerold for Jon Snow. Unlike Jon who at least grew up with a loving father and brothers, Gerold was so far as we know, bitterly alone. "I was weaned on venom" Darkstar grows up bitter that Ned "brought back Dawn" to Starfall, therefore "Dawn" quite literally ruined his chances of having a loving mother, therefore he decides to be "of the night." *Absolute Fucking CINEMA.*
One thing to keep in mind is that "Ashara looks to Stark" is that as well as not saying WHO she looked to it doesn't say WHY she looked to Stark. People are assuming looking to a Stark means something romantic, or just sexual, but it could mean that she looked to them to help her with a problem, one that she knew they could help with. What could a Stark help with that another could not? Something to do with a Stark bannerman. Like Howland Reed.
Ashara came to court she was not long in it when tourney happen, why she came in picture ? and who brought her into picture ?Well her brother who was also closest friend of Rhaegar and his childhood friend he told him everything and only him so when Elia who to many was unworthy of prince couldn't have another baby and Rhaegar wanted his Visenya so his friend provided him potential to baby mom in front of his nose and we know she was very pretty and Dayens were kings of Dorne before Martells they fought for long for Drone so maybe there was something .Rhaegar probably took interest in her or promised his friend something then Tourney happen Rhaegar won and maybe Ashara after he showed her some affection thought he will crown her as Queen of love and Beauty as Barristan would but he passed her his wife and went to Lyanna who is also people forger STARK so When Ashara look up to Stark it was probably Lyanna who she looked at why ? because she was jealous and to her and her brother it was dishonor so Ashara got dishonored by Rhaegar on Tourney probably .
@@blaubeer8039All the text shows is what he THINKS the situation was about. Just because Barry thinks that it was a romantic/sexual situation doesn't mean it actually was one. Someone as infatuated as Barry seems to be can easily see any interaction with a potential rival as something to get jealous over. All it would take is for Ashara to talk to a Stark and then move out somewhere Barry can't see for his imagination to run wild.
I think Ned and Ashara had some sort of interest in each other, potential lovers, but Brandon dying really shut that down. Besides hearing her brother die, seeing the man she loved have a child in his arms could've motivated Ashara to jump off the tower even more. Ned not really recalling Ashara too much could just be from it being 15 years ago as young love
I think Ashara is dead as hell, both Ashara and Arthur Dayne represent fantastical tropes of an honourable knight and a beautiful noble woman and their deaths by the end of the rebellion symbolise how everything becomes more morally grey and less fantastical after the rebellion
ASOIAF is too depressing. I choose to believe Ned and Ashara were in love, but the gods co stories against their marriage and Ashara faked her death to move on from the heartbreak and loss. The end.
0:30 What if the reason Davos keeps having fake deaths is because of his lucky finger bones? Instead of dying, his finger bones have held off the Reaper due to their luck, and maybe even due to Melisandre's magic if she still has his finger bones in her possession
I’ve seen a theory that Ashara moved to the Neck with Howland Reed and fathered John and Meera… what do you think about this? The story from the Reeds talks about everyone she dances either as though the author of the tale was obsessed with her
So a few main things. Ned and Ashara had to have had an ongoing relationship. Cat and Cersei both thinking she could be Jon's mother wouldn't make sense unless they were together. Jon was born at least a year and a half after Harrenhall. Neds thoughts aren't really reliable. Aside from the fever dream thoughts he also apparently thought of Rhaegar in years, despite Jon living with him. That would even seem to point to Jon not being Rhaegars. Tyrion also never comments on Shae's eye color. That at least to me seems like foreshadowing as to why he doesn't for Lemore. The blue rose could be an indication that Aegon goes north. The entire story makes more sense if when Ned gets to Dorne that there is a Targaryen looking baby at the Tower of Joy, Aegon, and then a Stark looking baby at Starfall, Jon. He takes his son home, and gives his nephew to someone he trusts, the mother of his son.
my personal tinfoil around Ashara: Ned is never specifically named as the Stark that Ashara danced with at Harrenhall. We just hear about Brandon asking on behalf of a shy younger brother, and Barristan repeatedly only refers to Stark. So I think it was actually young Benjen who was in love with her. And after her miscarriage and death, he was so distraught that he joined the watch. But I also want her to be Jyanna, and those two theories can't both be true...
That actually touches on one thing that NEVER made sense to me. Why did Benjen join the Night's Watch? They'd just lost their father, sister, and oldest brother. Their father Rickard didn't have any brothers. Their grandfather Edwyle had only one brother, who died without heirs. Their great-grandfather Willam had three brothers, who also died without any male heirs. Same for their great-great-grandfather Beron Stark. It's not like there's a massive surplus of male Starks running around. If anything, you'd expect Benjen to be married off as soon as possible to produce a few more heirs in case Ned doesn't have any that live to adulthood. And he'd be a pretty good catch for a noble house. So why does he go to the Wall and promises to have absolutely ZERO children? It makes no sense.
I've heard your take on the Blue Rose, and I've got to disagree. The Blue Rose doesn't hint towards any parentage. What it does speak towards is the situation north of the Wall. The Blue Rose is about Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose of Winterfell. The Starks and Wildlings are one, which by virtue of northern loyalty to the Starks means that the North and everyone beyond the Wall are one. The rose is about unity and removing of bias, not parentage.
I thought the same thing but it is worth noting that the story of Bael the Bard also kind of parallels Jon story in many ways. The secret child in this story is maybe also a hint at Jon true parentage but that's a stretch.
@archeogeek315 I agree. Saying the Blue Rose is proof of Jon being a Targ is so silly. Whenever Targs or Valyrians in general are mentioned in symbols, the symbols used are fire, ash, smoke, and most of all, violence. Violence towards dissidents, towards naysayers and the like. None of that is present in the Blue Rose vision.
It’s important to consider, regarding the Tourney of Harrenhal, that Barristan Selmy is from one of the main Stormlander houses in the Dornish Marches. It’s all well and good that he thinks back to the tournament and wonders whether he could’ve averted the rebellion by winning in the lists, but I’d wager this is more likely regret of knowing that as the greatest knight of his generation, he should’ve won, and he didn’t because he knew he couldn’t name Ashara his queen of love and beauty. Whether he took a dive because he was facing the heir apparent or was otherwise distracted due to this is up to the individual’s interpretation, but I think the whole point of Barristan’s thoughts about the event is to highlight that even the bravest knights can be found to be craven in a different battlefield (that of love).
It's in Ned's best interest to fan the flame on the rumor that Ashara is Jon's mother. He knows Jon is Rhaegar's son and that house Dayne has Valyrian features. So if Jon grows up to look like his dad, Ned can just shrug and say "ok y'all got me the rumor about Ashara is true" and nobody would look further into it.
Enjoy the channel. Have you considered doing any long-form theory discussions where you compile multiple 10-12 videos into one series to cover a specific nuanced topic?
@8:20 Hey eyes are also described as having been "haunting violet eyes," so we get the impression that her eyes weren't just pretty, they were ex. so beautiful it was hard to look away from them, that kind of incredible beauty in a person's features that is very, VERY rare even among other beautiful people
Why keep her a secret then? Jons mother being Ashara makes the secrecy around her identity completely meaningless and frankly makes Jon going to the Wall nonsensical, if Jons mother was Dornish and Catelyn didnt want him around Ned would have sent him to Dorne IMO. No hate but the secrecy for a secret thats too dangerous for people to know fits more than Neds love affair, not saying it didnt happen it just didnt result in Jon.
Controversial Comment: Danny is the daughter of Ned and Ashara. This about how GRRM uses opposites. John, male, black hair, told he's a bastard, actually the rightful king. Danny, female, silver hair, told she is the rightful queen, actually a bastard. Maybe... MAYBE... she is the mummer's dragon. But no matter what, I'm pretty sure Jojen is Howlan and Meera is Johns twin.
Explain how they passed off a baby born in mid 283 as a baby born in 284? Dany is at LEAST 10 months younger than any baby Ashara could have borne, how do you pass a baby that could very well be walking if not talking off as a newborn? Darkstar being Ashara’s child makes more sense timeline wise. Not that it’s not a silly theory
I believe she is important simply because of how early on she is mentioned, like Mance for example, or even Lyanna and Rhaegar. We get false information concerning all these characters initially. George wanted to set the stage for things to come as early as possible, which is why people go over the prologue so much too.
Ashara knew a lot what was going on between R+L for sure and it makes sense she faking her death to live somewhere else. Cannot tell if Ned talked to her about jon but we have to scenarios: 1 - he told her about jon only to find out she knew it; and since rebelion was over and Twin won he decided to hide jon for his protection and she decided to "kill" herself and avoid questions or 2 - they never talked about jon and she knew everyone on the tower of joy was dead, so decided to fake it and live somewhere else avoiding questions Don't know about her being with howland, but it would be fun and fit the story
Maybe the "Ned would be dead if HR hadn't saved his life" is not a literal fight with Arthur, but maybe in another way, like "he stopped Ned from doing or saying something that could have ended his life".
Great video! The Darkstar thing is interesting but we just don't have enough information about him. I had another thought about who or where Ashara might be if she's still alive. And yes it's dangerously close to tin foil dragonhelm territory but Lysono Maar is quick to point out, maybe too quick, that he is not a woman despite that he looks and dresses like one.
I like the idea that Ned wanted to be associated with Ashara just in case Jon came out with the violet eyes. Something that if he inherited his father’s (Rheagar) eyes could be explained away by claiming Ashara as the mother.
I always like Brandon secretly married ashara because he got her pregnant. As secret as the Starks didn't know. Ned is actually sending Jon to the wall to steal his birth right as the rightful heir to winterfell. Because Ned isn't as honorable as everyone thinks. Most of the Starks aren't, they are as big of bastards as most other houses.
Given what’s been established about Brandon’s relations with women - it seems very plausible that Ned was the one who wanted to court Ashara and they liked each other, but Brandon knocked her up as another conquest, which led to Ned emotionally letting go of her before she died (or “died”)
I mean, I'm convinced Ashara Dayne became Jyarra Reed. It would make sense why Meera would know the Harrenhal Tourney story so well, if it was her parents' "How I First Saw Your Mother" story, on top of being how Howland became a favored vassal of Ned's.
I always like to imagine that Ned had a thing for Ashara, but Brandon hooked up with her anyway. A few people close to the crown would have or could have known. I see Ned as someone who is quietly bitter than Brandon and Lyanna did as they pleased, but he was forced to become Lord and marry someone he didn't want to because of it. "It was all meant for Brandon." Also the whole war thing. Realistically speaking, Ned barely knew his siblings. He spent eight years in the Vale, returning to Winterfell only to deliver Robert's offer of marriage. He was seventeen and still fostering? Robert was older than that, the Lord of Storm's End, and still living in the Vale? Something pretty suspect about that entire scenario.
There's a theory that Ashara came north with Howland and married him. Howland was infatuated with her, even remembering who this supposedly random girl danced with a lot of years later. There's a mention in a Barristan chapter that she got dishonored by Stark in Harrenhal, but we know that Howland was sharing a tent with the Starks. Furthermore, Meera might be the daughter of a Dornishwoman specifically since she is the heir to Greywater Watch over her brother which isn't a northern custom but specifically a Dornish one. And they would have met again as Ned and Howland travelled to Starfall before going north. The theory suggests that the the stillborn baby was that of a servant girl(specifically Jon Snow's wetnurse Wylla. She's mentioned by Edric Storm in an Arya chapter) and that she, Ashara and Howland travelled to Greywater Watch and got married and since then lived there in peace.
I love the B + A = G (Brandon + Ashara = Gerold) theory with Brandon being a womanizer and Ashara maybe liking Ned but being blown away and infatuated with Brandon at the Tourney of Harenhal BUT theirs two reasons the theory it doesn’t work: 1- Darkstar is presumed to be born in 270-274 AC or be in his late twenties by ADWD timeline, pretty much the same age as Jon Snow, Dany or Young Griff. 2- that silverish « very targaryen or lyseni» colored hair with a stripe of black . Both Brandon and Ashara having dark brown hair. The eye color works though with brandon being grey eyes and ashare purple, Darkstars eyes are very dark purple i believe so maybe a greyish mix?
If Ashara is Jons mother he could be the Sword of the Morning. the true story is not about the iron throne…giving him Dawn would have a huge impact on the story as it’s likely Lightbringer
I like the theory that Ashara is Jon’s mother and Ned is his father. Ned was planning to bring her to Brandon’s wedding to present her to his father and ask for permission to Marry. She is the “fisherman’s daughter” that survived the storm with Ned and was with him when he learned of his father’s and brother’s deaths. They were in love, and since he was now the Lord of Winterfell, he did not need permission, so they married in secret, consummated (conceiving Jon), parted, and he went north to raise the banners to help Robert. Upon returning to Riverrun, Hoster demanded a marriage to Catelyn in exchange for his support in the rebellion causing Ned to set Ashara aside (to his grief). Jon is older than Rob, making him the true Heir to Winterfell, and the only Stark child who is not a bastard (hell of a twist there). Narratively, this gives Jon Dayne blood, in theory allowing him to wield Dawn, which may be the real Lightbringer. The child born at the Tower of Joy is Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, who Ned swears to protect, swaps Aegon with Jon and Ashara (Septa Lemore) secrets him across the Narrow Sea to be raised… Shout out to @theorderofthegreenhand
I was kinda stuck in my ways on theories about Lyanna, Jon's parentage, Ned and Ashara. I've calmed down a lot and just think let's just wait and see. There are just so many potentials baby swaps. so many thoughts or no thoughts where there should be on many theories. Things that don't make sense etc.
Jon and Dany's ages, for one. The math doesn't work unless Dany was extremely premature (for R+L=J and A+R=D) There is also the fact that Rhaella would have been 43 with a history of miscarriages and stillbirths, making a healthy child highly improbable. There is a lot of deliberate misinformation going on.
Ashara - ra = Asha Swap A for O Asha = Osha Capitalize letters Osha = OSHA OSHA recordable for dangerous workplace at wall Therefore Ashara = Jon Connington
I think the only thing narratively that could come out of Ashara being Jon's mother is that he might inherit the sword Dawn because of it? Something something, Azor Ahai, something something Lightbringer.
Blue rose on the wall maybe doesn't have anything with Lyanna. Blue rose is symbol of Winterfell also and Bael the Bard who ask for rose and then take the daugther leaving rose behind. And Ashara being Jon's mom would make sense because Jon's story isn't about Iron Throne nor dragons, he wants to be heir of Winterfell and if Ned was married with Ashara and Jon was borned not as bastard then he would be rightfull heir of Winterfell. Jon in anything written about him never have anything with Dragons, he only have wolves connection and he is older than Robb and if Ned was married with Ashara, Winterfell would be his. Also dots conneect Robb's will that Jon be his heir. Jon's story is about the North, not southern concerns, Preparing for war for the dawn with Stannis and rest of characters up there. Ned was probably married to Ashara and then to survive war had to beak bonds to get Tully forces securing victory for uprising agaisnt Targs. Ned also said when marrying Catelyn Tully that he broke law of Gods and men. Seems like something pretty big was happening behind the scene and Ned was blaming himself. He did brought girl with him through Sisters isles and everyone was convinced they were pair. Real Lyanna kid is probably Aegon/Young Griff because as Varys describe him, it cannot be kid from Kings Landingg but another one who had time to do all that he described while Kevan was dying
Something I’ve been thinking about is Jon switching the babies at Castle Black and if that could be a clue about any other previous babies being switched.
If for no other reason, the Daynes are important because we learn that Targaryens are not the only ones with purple eyes. Dark Star has dark purple... and she has laughing purple eyes. We don't see this anywhere else - and I bet that is an important fact to know when trying to figure out the overall story behind the story. What gets to me is that her little brother... or is is nephew?... Ned Dayne is named after Ned... and that he was nursed by Willa... who was Jon's wet nurse at Winterfell before she was sent away shortly after the rumor had reached Catlyn's ears that Jon's mother could have been Ashara. So there is obviously more of a connection between the Starks and the Daynes than we know... oh... and the swords... the original Ice and Dawn are supposedly brightly shining pale swords rather than the dark Valeryan steel. I can't think of another pale sword other than the ice swords of the others.
Edric "Ned" Dayne is the nephew of Ashara, Arthur, and Allyria (Beric Dondarrion's fiance, which is how Edric ended-up squiring for Beric.) The reason Edric is Lord Dayne even though Dorne practices absolute primogeniture (boys and daughters are equal in terms of inheritance,) is because his father was the oldest of the 4 Dayne siblings, so when the father died, the title passed to Edric as the child of the previous lord/lady (in this case lord. Edric says to Arya that his father was the head of House Dayne rather than his mother. We have 0 information on who his mother is/was)
I do think Ned may have had a crush on Ashara & she may have reciprocated which would have worked for Rickard's Southern Ambitions but given how things were going it wasn't able to be worked out for them. And as for Ned not thinking of a long lost love...well when you get married or are in another relationship you don't really spend your time reminiscing on past loves
not only ned froze up at the mention of ashara but told catelyn to never ask about JON again.. they might not be mother and child but are definitely close topics in ned's head
Rather than Darkstar, I've always thought that Allyria Dayne was the result of the pregnancy that Ashara supposedly lost. We know she's betrothed to Beric in the first book, when he is around 21 years old, and she's Ned Dayne's "Aunt" even though she's only like 3-4 years older than him. Ashara gets knocked up at Harrenhall, her family hides her due to embarrassment until the child is born and her parents can pass it off as their own. Ned Stark probably knew the secret, since Brandon is probably the father, which is the secret he kept safe and why the Dayne's named Ned after him. I have a feeling both Allyria and Ned were planned for bigger roles before the lost time skip. Also, even if not true, it's an interesting thought experiment of Beric/Allyria and Barriston/Ashara. Barriston can't forget the hair and eyes of his love 20 years later, but after only a year or less of his extended life, Beric can't remember his betrothed at all. 😢
Simple, Ned Stark died at the Tower of Joy, and the Ned we follow in the first book is secretly Ashara.
OR! After the tower of joy Ashara went undercover as Euron AND Daario
No after Ned-Ashara was beheaded she became Euron and Daario@@jj947
Ashara is Sir Pounce confirmed
Ashara is Everyone
This is a Blacklist typa theory. Ashara Dayne is Raymond Redington confirmed?
Obviously the true parents of Jon Snow are Ashara Dayne and Lyana Stark.
Lesbian conception through blood magic? I am here for it, apart from them both ending up dead. Maybe Lyanna and Ashara aren't dead and ran off together to the Summer Isles where they could love each other openly for the rest of their long happy lives!
@@thing_under_the_stairs LOL!!!
@@thing_under_the_stairsthat's so grrm
that would be hot ı would pay to see that
michael scoot
How don’t people get this. Duh
“ASHARA LEFT THE TOWER AHORSE” -GRRM probably hopefully
🐎
Obvious horse.
Glidus has a wide reach it seems 😂
Nah she stayed abed and didn’t jump because beds cannot move
@@DongusMcBongus lmfao 💀
6:30 I swear, GRRM answers basically every question of ASOIAF like this, just listing what the in-setting knowledge is rather than giving an out-of-universe definitive answer. Even a question like "What colour is the sky on a sunny day in Westeros?" would be met with "Well when people look at it they see a blue" rather than "The sky is blue"...
Frankly, this is how authors should answer most questions.
Ashara is Jyanna Reed, Howland Reed's wife. H+A=M&J
Howland was bunking with Ned in his tent at the tourney, which is where her and Howl could've first hooked up. Witnesses would see her entering Ned's tent, yes, but that wasn't who she was there to see. Greywater Watch is a moving castle - a reference to Howl's moving castle - and in the book and film Howl catches a falling star (Starfall). Also, Howland names Meera his heir to Greywater Watch. Although Meera is older, a daughter inheriting over a son would still be out of the norm in the North, even with Jojen's constant death premonitions telling him he isn't gonna live to adulthood, but it would be perfectly acceptable in Dorne.
Yes! This is what I think, too. I remember watching a video on it a while ago, but I can't remember the video. Do you know what it is?
@@TheMad_LordSnow in deep geek made some videos about this, it's probably in his Roberts rebellion playlist
How is based on Howl's moving castle exactly? Just because its said the castle moves doesn't mean that its a link and I'm sure grrm would have mentioned it
@Ashbrash1998 it's a reference to Howls Moving Castle. George has references to all kinds of books, films and songs he likes. From Grateful Dead to Ridley Scott's Alien, Lovecraft, Conan, Elric of Melnibone, Dune, the Godfather. He is not subtle with his tips of the hat to other writers and creators.
@@Ashbrash1998HOWLand lives in a moving castle.
8:38 Ashara Dayne clearly is Aegons father.
Ashara Dayne is mother of Jon Snow!!!
Ashara pegged Ned confirmed!
Yeah, and Varys is the mother
I go with the Jyanna Reed theory. There's literally no other reason the Reed kids would be told the Harrenhal story if it's not a How I Met Your Mother story. No one else ever mentions The Knight of the Laughing Tree. Whymention Ashara at all in the story if it's just some woman who died over a decade ago. There's also the fact that Meera, not Jojen is mentioned as Howland's heir. That's a Dornish custom.
Howl I Met Your Mother?
How I met your mother is exactly that it a story about a woman who is not the kids mom. So Howland Reed could be just as messed up as Ted Mosby.
So Ashara is not mother if it is How I met your mother
Howland Reed killed Barristan’s Kingsguard Brothers and married the girl he was simping for. What a Chad.
I can't believe you made a whole Ashara video and didn't mention the popular theory that she's Howland's secret wife
THANK YOU!!!
Which is why we are introduced to Meera as though she were her father’s heir, even though her brother is standing right next to her.
I was waiting for him to bring this one up. This is the one that will more likely be true.
Was waiting for this theory the entire video !
"Popular"?
GRRM if you don't release a book soon, the "theories" are going to cause the universe to cave in on itself...
Darkstar is not only ashara and Brandon’s kid but the Minotaur/jahaerys the son of queen rhaella. At this point he is the very game of thrones itself.
Ashara is secretly every character in fiction
Ashara killed Edwin Drood
@@jj947Ashara was Edwin too
Ashara was Charles Dickens.
Ashara is Bloodraven confirmed 😤
You really think so? Could be I guess…
Eddard actually said to Kat:. "never ask me about Jon". Jon? The subject matter was Ashara, not Jon. Why mention Jon unless the two are somehow connected?
The wait for TWOW is long but these videos make it more bearable, my breakfast and coffee pairs so good with content!
I think Ashara was more involved than we could tell at present in Rhaegar's pre-Rebellion scheming. As Elia's only named Lady and Arthur's sister, she would be the perfect go-between and confidante. Martin also commented that Ashara wasn't nailed to the floor during the Rebellion, so I wonder what that was about? Jon is definitely too young to be Harrenhall baby, that's just simple maths. Yet, Ashara was sent away from court because she was pregnant (or was that a good lie to have a loyal ally placed back at Starfall?). She was probably at Starfall for months afterwards while the Rebellion got started. And if she had a daughter that wasn't stillborn, my guess would be Allyria Dayne, who is clearly much, much younger than her siblings. Maybe her grandparents secretly adopted her? Or she could a child from a second wife, and a half-sister to Ashara and Arthur (and their unnamed older brother). Martin also confirmed that Brandon Stark left no illegitimate sons, but there could be a daughter (I am paraphrasing). So, Allyria could be the Stark-Dayne baby, if we really need one. I can also see her as the point of contact between the Tower of Joy and Starfall- I mean, someone had to be supplying the group of 4 with food and laundry, etc. It is also possible that she was the source of information about Lyanna's whereabouts. As Ned going there resulted in Arthur's death, this could be another misery for her that led her to jump off the tower. It's possible that the great love of Ashara and Ned is a story at Starfall only because Ned went there to return Arthur's sword. Because in the same breath that little Ned talkes about their great love, he asserts that Jon Snow was their servant's son. This sounds like a mix of gossip that was repeated many times.
Some people favouring Ashara as the mother, say that Jon being half-Dayne would give him rights to Dawn, and thus be narratively valid. However, it is far more likely that Ned Dayne was supposed to be the one to wield it after the 5 year time skip and bring it North with him. Jon can pick up Dawn and use it, even if he's not a Dayne, it won't burn his fingers. Now it's more popular to think that Darkstar will steal it and be the way the sword leaves Dorne as Ned is still a boy of 12. Also, deconstructing overused tropes requires you to do them first, so Jon not being a secret prince, only to turn out to not be a secret prince, is not it. Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son is not 'too obvious', and Martin's treatment of this fact will be the deconstruction and subversion of expectations. But Jon being half Dayne has no bearing on the plot, so there is no reason whatsoever to keep it secret, even from Robert. Ashara was pretty, Bobby B would probably congratulate Ned and move on. I don't see a point for Martin to make such a secret from information that's irrelevant completely. And if Jon's mother doesn't matter, why not make him a straightforward bastard of Ned's by the fisherman's daughter. His hero journey would still be different to all fantasy tropes then because we know 100% he's nothing "special" to start with.
I also don't believe she is the true mother of Dany (who is 8-9 months younger than Jon even; and Rhaella was stuck on Dragonstone her entire pregnancy witnessedby Viserys, who never, even at his worst, accused Dany of being a bastard or a changeling) or F(a)egon's. And although, I find the Howland/Ashara theory interesting to listen to (In Deep Geek has a good video on it), personally I believe she is really dead, like many other people who actually did die.
"Ned thinks about her brother more." A simple matter, my friend: You see, Arthur and Ashara are actually crossdressing alternate identities of the same Dayne and also both secret Targaryen horses.
I wish this touched on the ashara+howland theory. It is super speculative but I love it! (and what kind of name is jyanna?) It makes sense then that Jojen and Meera essentially share with bran a "how I met your mother" story told by their father, and why they've heard the story so many times but Ned never thinks or talks about Ashara.
In deep geek has a good video laying out the evidence, would love your take!
Except Jojen and Meera were *surprised* Ned never told the story to his children; why would that be unless the story directly pertained to Ned and would be something he would tell his children?
Meaby it has to do with the knight of the laughing tree who most likely is Lyanna and the reason why Lyanna and Rhagar originally meet. Ned would probably know this so the story might be emotionly difficult for Ned@@X525Crossfire
@@X525Crossfire I think it's because Ned, after bringing Arthur Dayne's sword back to Starfall, secretly smuggled Ashara out of Dorne (perhaps as far as bringing her all the way to Greywater Watch). It's the reason Ned and Howland are such good friends but it's also painful for Ned because he, too, was in love with Ashara. Howland tells the story to highlight Ned's involvement in him and Ashara getting together, seeing it as a mark of their friendship, but Ned doesn't talk about it because it reminds him of his heartbreak.
Idk about Jyanna but Gianna is a common Italian American name.
Ashara+Howland is my headcanon and very little can change my mind
Darkstar is actually Ashara Dayne (and is secretly a time traveling fetus, child of a future adult Ned Dayne)
WHEN Winds of Winter comes, it’ll be interesting to see which theories turned out to be right
The strongest evidence by far of Ashara not being Jon's mother is that Cat believes she is. But I do wonder about her place in the story. Barristan bringing her up that much all the way in book 5 only as a tie back seems so thin.
Cat and Cersei thinking that actually points towards Ned and Ashara having an ongoing relationship. Harrenhall happened at least a year and a half after Harrenhall.
Hmmm, Darkstar is the anti-Jon. Makes some sense.
Nice video covering Ashara. One point I disagree with you on, is her character overall being a red herring. My main reason for this is Beric Donadarrion's squire, Edric Dayne. He's a Dayne, and he's named after Ned. The Dayne's should hate Ned for killing Arthur, yet they name the heir to the House after him.
I don' t know what it could be that earned Ned such respect with the Dayne's despite killing Arthur. A red herring doesn't address this at all, and Martin writes in Edric specifically to bring our attention to it. My guess is Brandon is the one who impregnated Ashara and Ned's the one who cleaned up after him. If we ever get future books from Martin, I definitely expect to get more on Ashara.
Edric Dayne makes no sense under any theory beyond what we think happened at the tower didn't but there is no actual evidence to support that sadly.
I highly HIGHLY doubt Brandon would do that to Ned, especially after being a wingman for his little brother. That would be an awful thing to do.
The other speculation I've read concerning Ashara Dayne is that Allyria Dayne is really her daughter not her sister. I don't know if the time fits, but it is an interesting idea.
I am inclined to think that she might be Septa Lemore & that Fake Aegon is her son, but I'm not sure about the father.
Lemore is Tyene Sand's mom
She cant be her daughter she is too old
@@queenxx1690 are we ever told, specifically, how old Allyria is? it seems the betrothal was a long thing, like you would do if the bride was quite young.
@@jacobenke7936 she was suppode to marry Beric Dondarrion
@@queenxx1690 Betrothed. We're never given an age. There was no reason to wait if she were old enough, and even less if she's too old to be Ashara's daughter.
Jon being half Dayne would have a HUGE impact on the story.. mainly, he would be eligible to be The Sword of the Morning, and carry Dawn. Which is possibly Lightbringer.
Just saying. It def would have an impact on the story either way.
Part of the nights watch vows are "The light that Brings the Dawn", I believe those are going to be the Dayne house words. Referencing to their part in the war for the Dawn/lightbringer.
@@lanestapp2 @thisguy8106 In Jons chapters the word "Dawn" is used twice as much as in any other pov chapters
@@jacks6235 There is a lot of allusion to it.
@@lanestapp2 "the order of the Greenhand" is a youtube channel with great videos breaking it all down. I watched the entire show before reading the books and when I finished the books I couldnt believe how little evidence there was for R+L=J. Way more evidence for Ned and Ashara being jons parents
@@jacks6235 Ya, I'm very familiar with them. And you're totally right about the lack of evidence. One of the biggest points of evidence the rlj believers follow is the blue winter rose in the wall. I think Aegon is going north and that's going to be a sign for him.
This video is pointless, if you rearrange the letters of Ashara Dane and Google translate it into 617 different languages and then back to English, you get LIVER AND ONIONS, meaning Ashara Dane is actually STRONG BELWAS
Now this is a theory I can get behind!
I don’t think Ashara had a kid, or at least not one that lived. I think her and Ned had a romance at the Tourney but were soon forced to opposite sides of the war. Then Ned has to marry another woman, ruining any chance that they might have. Then Ashara presumably loses her brother to the blade of the man she loves. In her grief she kills herself. It’s the kind of tragic doomed love story that George likes to write. The Dayne’s respect Ned because Ned paid proper honors to Arthur and their house by coming to Starfall with Dawn and not claiming it as a prize as most people would have done.
And for taking care of Jon Snow and raising him as his own son for his safety. Protecting the heir would get you a lot of sympathy after what happened with the other Targ kids. Plus Ned was likely wounded and certainly traumatized by war. Besides in this setting people know the Kingsgaurd have to obey and might not blame Ned.
Ashara actually fell in love with Howland at Tourney and not Ned and/or Brandon, and faked her death after the war to runaway with Howland, and Jojen and Meera are Howland and Asharas children. Thats my headcanon and no one can tell me otherwise. I do hope its actually true though.
I heard about this theory too and I do really like it.
hell yes, love this
She’s clearly Darkstar’s mother so no other theory works.
(I’ve also heard this theory and really like it! Didn’t discuss it here because I thought it’d fit in better for a potential future video on Howland.)
this is my favorite Ashara theory by a long shot. the best piece of evidence IMO is that in the Harrenhall story Howland is called “the lad” and Ashara is “the maid” whereas every other character has a more specific title..
Ashara eloping to Greywater Watch with Howland Reed is a great theory. I have been hoping that Howland Reed would turn up in the story, but maybe it's just as well to leave it as a mystery.
I have a feeling that Ashara wasn't the victim of a surprise baby or secret marriage (you can only have so many tbf) I think she knew ALOT more than people assume she did. A common throught for another character she was close to, Elia Martell. I believe she had Rhaegar's private confidence (as shown in Dany's vision with him telling her about a Song if Ice and fire which NOONE knew about) and that Ashara may have been the go between Lyanna. Because of a Stark had dishonored her, why would her older brother nickname his son Ned? Why would Edric/"Ned" be told that Jon Snow and him had the same wetnurse "Wylla"? Why have so much respect for Ned when he supposedly killed a family member and drove another to suicide? The only way it makes sense is because Ned and no Stark were responsible in any way, she either died because of other reasons (heck she lost her brother, Elia and her children) or she might still be alive.
Bruh, Ashara Dayne is most definitely alive and she's definitely shacked up with Howland Reed (who's children definitely related a story to Bran that CERTAINLY sounded like Reed was viewing a lady he was infatuated with as he told this story to this children).
Or Howland is messed up like Ted Mosby telling his kids how he thinks about another woman all the time or is not their mother.
I don't know if I'm crazy or something like that, but to me it was very clear while reading that Ashara and Ned had a thing, like everytime she is mentioned is because of this supposed romance between the two. Cat and Cersei think she is Jon's mother, Arya learns about her as this tragic woman who loved Ned, and Meera and Jojen telling that story to Bran never felt like a "How I Met You Mother" story as some people say, to me they mentioned Ashara and asked Bran about it because in their minds Ashara was the woman Ned loved before Cat, so they were surprised that Ned never mentioned her or told that story (also the story had a lot important stuff related to the Starks that go beyond Ashara, so it would make sense for Ned to tell his kids).
I do find it odd that Ned doesn't think about her, however he as a character was all about honor and duty, I can easily see Ned moving on from her after marrying Cat. Also, Ned was a very problematic POV character because he knew too much and had a lot of answers for a lot of things that could not be revealed at that point in the story, like he never thinks about Jon as a Targaryen, and even when he is alone in prison at the verge of death his memories about the Tower of Joy and his promise to Lyanna are all vague, and it's vague on porpuse because, well, it was the first book and George didn't want us to know about any of that yet.
The one narrative element I like about Ashara being Jon’s mother is it makes him a candidate to be the new Sword of the Morning, which solves some holes in the Azor Ahai prophecy (and maybe creates some new holes?)
Not to mention, I feel pretty strongly that theDayne's house words are going to be "The light that Brings the Dawn" in reference to their sword and The Nights watch vows.
Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne and Jons Uncle
@@jacks6235 With his seemingly unmatched ability with a sword it seems more than plausible.
Thank you for the Sunday treat Ser Quinn!
I think what the truth is is that Ned and Ashara genuinely really really liked each other, maybe even loved each other as much as they could based on how much they interacted, but they could never act on it. I like to think Ashara in a moment of grief and pain following the death of Elia and Arthur (and potentially Brandon Stark earlier?) wanted to run away with Ned. Raise Lyanna's (and maybe baby Darkstar to acknowledge your off the cuff theory) child together and marry far far far away from Westeros. Ned being a man of honor could never do that to Catelyn and Robb. That was the final thing she thought she might live for and threw herself from Starfall. Would make sense why the Daynes don't have a problem with Ned and why Ned refuses to let anyone to speak about her. Ned couldn't have known she'd do that so the Daynes aren't mad and Ned is still hurt by it so wants nobody to speak on it.
I am very fond of how you Chapter out your videos. I always watch start to finish, but it just feels nice, you know? You have nicely paced scripts and patter
I think that Ashara might really be alive because her death is hella suspicious. I think she'll end up fulfilling a "Lady in the Lake" trope by being the one who informs Jon Snow of his true parentage, and giving him Dawn.
Personally, I think that Ashara and Howland Reed got together.
We're told that Ashara and Ned danced at Harrenhal, but fail to remember that she danced with several people. In Howland's story of the event to his kids, everyone is described by their house sigil, except for himself, "The Crannogman" and Ashara, "The Maiden (with purple eyes)."
Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia, and was the brother to Rhaegar's closest friend and kingsguard, Arthur, so it's not unreasonable that she was aware of what was happening with him and Lyanna. After Robert's Rebellion and his subsequent crowning, Ashara would have to disappear for her own protection, like many other Rhaegar supporters, so it's not unlikely that she had her death faked, the story being that she threw herself into the Torrentine river with greif in her heart for her brother and deceased child.
Although we are told that Arthur would've killed Ned "if not for Howland", we're told that Ned took the fall for killing Ser Dayne, clearly to divert the blame from Howland to himself.
It stands to reason that it could be arranged that Howland and Ashara run off to The Neck together, where they would sire two children together.
Note that whilst we haven't met Howland in the story yet, we also haven't met Meera and Jojen's mother, either. Admittedly, we are told that Howland married a Lady "Jyana" Reed, but considering how there is literally no information about her, for the purposes of this theory, and with other characters such as Griff, it's not unreasonable to suggest that Jyana may actually be Ashara in hiding. Their names do also sound similar. The ancient Northern blood of the Reed's, as well as the Dayne's could also go some way to explain Jojen's aptitude as a Greenseer.
Take into consideration also that it's Meera, not Jojen, who is the heir of Greywater Watch. Everywhere else in Westeros, it's the eldest male who inherits from their lord-parents, except for Dorne, where it's simply the eldest, regardless of gender. Perhaos something that Ashara, who hails from Dorne, might've wished for.
I've had these thoughts for a while, but there's an excellent video by In Deep Geek, which goes into even more detail regarding the theory, and Ashara's whereabouts.
ashara warged into a fish , then warged into patchfaces ... think about it , makes perfect sense
Her role is to introduce one more mystery baby to the story. Her lovers could be Ned, Brandon, Rhaegar or Aerys (she was Elias' handmaiden after all).
I absolutely LOVE how in probably the majority of his videos, Quinn will use low-budget-looking graphics with a "graphic design is my passion" caption
One thing Ive not heard a theory about is what the plan was for Jon before the tower of joy. Surely something was being planned for one of the last royals. It's possible the Daynes disagreed on what should be done and Author was in on a different plan than Ashara. They may not have been on great terms.
This is actually one amazing question to ask! There is a small group of people who knew that a new Targaryen was about to be born, but what they were planning to do after?
@MyCarnageExtreme Families being in conflict is a major theme of the series. I doubt the Daynes are entirely on the same page. Given that there were three (!) Kingsgaurd at the tower we can probably infer that Lyanna wasn't able to be moved or had some sort of complication. After Jon was born they likely were planning on moving him to Essos. Whatever the plan was, Ned and crew rather strongly disagreed with it. Otherwise, why would they have fought to the death? The Daynes likely took pity on Ned and Howland when they arrived, and no wonder. Two broken young men with a baby in arms. Only a monster would have executed these poor wounded young men. I suspect Ashara was a big reason they they were given mercy.
I know you don’t think Ashar is Sepra Lemore since Tyrion doesn’t mention her purple eyes, however if you look at Tyrion previous chapters, he barely mention color eyes from women, including to people he slept with.
He was looking the bodies, not the eyes especially not women!!! LOL
The wording of the Barristan POV kinda stands out to me. He thinks about how Ashara threw herself from a tower “mad with grief for the child she had lost and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal” . He thinks “might she have looked to me instead of Stark?”. “Looked to” implies turn to for aid, advice or comfort. So it seems to me that “the man who dishonored her” is someone else. Barristan appears to respect Ned. He tells Dany how Ned disagreed with Robert about having Dany killed. His interactions with Ned and thoughts about him show no hint of resentment. I would think if Ned “dishonored” Ashara, Barristan would think ill of him. Also I want to point out that Ned was so shy his older brother had to ask Ashara to dance for him. Then Ned slept with her shortly after? Doesn’t seem too likely. Then there’s the conversation between Ned Dayne and Arya. Put it together with what we know and we get: Ned Stark kills Arthur Dayne at the tower of joy, then heads to Starfall, tells the Dayne family he killed Arthur, gives them back their ancestral sword, introduces Willa the baby momma and baby John, tells them he’s gotta get back to his wife and their true born son. Okay, bye. Ashara was so in love with Ned that she then jumped off a tower to her death. Fast forward a few years and Arthur and Ashara’s brother has a new baby and goes “think I’ll call him Ned”. Seems off…Anything Ned Dayne thinks comes from his family. His family are in a position to actually know. They are spreading the idea that Willa is Jon Snow’s mother, but if that were true it would be unusual that they respect him enough to name the heir of house Dayne after him. Also the fact that Willa went back down to Starfall and was Ned Dayne’s wet nurse implies that they knew her. She was from there so she just came back to them. They know she’s not the mother. They are trying to cover for Ned, they know who Jon actually is. They probably know who the father of Ashara’s baby is. My thought is that it’s Oberyn. Elia and Oberyn were close, Ashara was Elia’s lady in waiting, they knew each other. They danced together at Harrenhal and we know that Oberyn had lots of bastards. Somebody on a RUclips channel suggested the possibility of Allyria being Ashara’s daughter instead of her sister and I think that kinda fits with my oberyn idea. We don’t know much about her other than her being engaged to Beric. Beric doesn’t even remember what she looked like. Her age isn’t mentioned. Maybe the Daynes claimed her as their own so Oberyn wouldn’t take her. By that time he’s had the first four sandsnakes, maybe it’s a known thing that he takes them.
There’s quite a few mentions of Ashara, I kinda doubt she’s just a red herring. I still kinda like her as septa Lemoore despite that theory’s problems.
Honestly reading all this I was expecting the father of Asharas baby was someone that made no sense
@@DavidCarradinesBelt heheh yeah, some of my RUclips comments are pretty long. Most aren’t super wild. Well, I don’t think they are anyway.
"Ashara could be Aegon´s father" now that's a plot twist
I think, out of all the theories, the Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne theory works the best. Like, it’s such a good theory. Shame you didn’t mention it.
I'd say, Jon being Asharas while being eligible as sword of the morning/weilder of the actual lightbringer would be a far better story. Rather than fish guy hides his wife for some reason.
Arthur Dayne and Ashara Dayne were in an incestuous relationship. Ned found out and didn't tell anyone, hence why they like him so much. It would also explain the stillbirth and why Ashara killed herself after finding out about Arthur's death. Plus they are of Valyrian origin so it's not unheard of in their ancestry. Arthur and Ashara were both at court for a time so logistically it makes sense and it could also mirror Jaime and Cersei's relationship. It could also be why Ned decided to show mercy to Cersei, because he recalled how it went down with Ashara and Arthur.
They are not of Valyrian origin. House Dayne is almost as old as House Stark, and that is milennia before Valyria. The Starks had been kings for a long time when the Valyrians were still herding sheep. They have the features, but the most common theory I've seen for that is the Great Empire of the Dawn. House Hightower is very similar in that regard.
I’m a R + L = D person and the hardest part to explain is the blue rose thing. I do have a roundabout explanation that checks out, but it’s probably too long for a comment. But my key point that I wanna push: Why is Lyanna the only one who can like blue roses? What if Ashara liked blue roses too? What if in taking down the ToJ a bunch of blue roses filled the air and make Ned think of Ashara. What if this is the catalyst for Ned to decide to do a baby swap. This would put Jon and Dany of the paths they’re currently following, where as without the baby swap they’d be very different people.
the reason of Blue Flower that Lyanna is the Mother of Danny, she is seeing the symbol of her mother.
and I am R+A=D why because Ashara had stillborn daughter not son and what if stillborn was changed to stormborn or why Barristan says that Dany has Ashara eyes not that it looks similar that they are the same as if he was looking at her daughter and Dany weir lemon tree and red doors who are probably in Dorne in Starfall
What I find interesting (and I say this as a rather casual fan) is that part of the R+L=J story as seen in the show GOT is that Catelyn thought Ned had screwed around and brought home bastard Jon, but in the end, it turns out Jon isn't Ned's son, so Ned was innocent. It complicates that "redemption" story if the truth is that Ned did have an affair with Ashara, did father a bastard, so he feels guilty that Catelyn's suspicions are true--but Jon is not that bastard.
I knew you had it in you! Great video!
Ashara is Ned's wife and Jons Mother (still alive as Septa Lemore)
8:24 Ashara being Lemore could add to the story because perhaps when Dany and fAegon finally meet Barriston will betray Danny and side with the woman he used to love… though I agree this is unlikely given Tyrion never mentioned her eyes being purple
We might be cooking with *GAS* on the N + A = GD theory.
Think about it;
Ned demands that "her name not be mentioned in Winterfell again" when Cat asks him about Ashara being Jon's mother. So Ashara *is* a sore spot for Ned, that's a fact.
Edric Dayne tells Arya that a wetnurse named Wylla was "mother of Ned Starks bastard" he says this because she breastfed them both when young. He also says Ashara and Ned were in love.
Robert asks Ned who his bastard's mother is and Ned says 'Wylla' while "looking away" meaning honorable Ned is likely lying. But why does Ned know the exact name of a Dayne wetnurse?
Ned and Ashara make Gerold. Ned comes back with Dawn. Ashara commits suicide. Gerold grows up without either parents, making him twice as edgy as Jon Snow, Wylla breastfed him.
Edric mistakes Gerold for Jon Snow. Unlike Jon who at least grew up with a loving father and brothers, Gerold was so far as we know, bitterly alone. "I was weaned on venom"
Darkstar grows up bitter that Ned "brought back Dawn" to Starfall, therefore "Dawn" quite literally ruined his chances of having a loving mother, therefore he decides to be "of the night."
*Absolute Fucking CINEMA.*
One thing to keep in mind is that "Ashara looks to Stark" is that as well as not saying WHO she looked to it doesn't say WHY she looked to Stark.
People are assuming looking to a Stark means something romantic, or just sexual, but it could mean that she looked to them to help her with a problem, one that she knew they could help with. What could a Stark help with that another could not? Something to do with a Stark bannerman. Like Howland Reed.
Ashara came to court she was not long in it when tourney happen, why she came in picture ? and who brought her into picture ?Well her brother who was also closest friend of Rhaegar and his childhood friend he told him everything and only him so when Elia who to many was unworthy of prince couldn't have another baby and Rhaegar wanted his Visenya so his friend provided him potential to baby mom in front of his nose and we know she was very pretty and Dayens were kings of Dorne before Martells they fought for long for Drone so maybe there was something .Rhaegar probably took interest in her or promised his friend something then Tourney happen Rhaegar won and maybe Ashara after he showed her some affection thought he will crown her as Queen of love and Beauty as Barristan would but he passed her his wife and went to Lyanna who is also people forger STARK so When Ashara look up to Stark it was probably Lyanna who she looked at why ? because she was jealous and to her and her brother it was dishonor so Ashara got dishonored by Rhaegar on Tourney probably .
@@blaubeer8039All the text shows is what he THINKS the situation was about. Just because Barry thinks that it was a romantic/sexual situation doesn't mean it actually was one.
Someone as infatuated as Barry seems to be can easily see any interaction with a potential rival as something to get jealous over. All it would take is for Ashara to talk to a Stark and then move out somewhere Barry can't see for his imagination to run wild.
@@blaubeer8039 She was looking at Stark... Lyanna Stark jealous because she got flowers not her
I think Ned and Ashara had some sort of interest in each other, potential lovers, but Brandon dying really shut that down. Besides hearing her brother die, seeing the man she loved have a child in his arms could've motivated Ashara to jump off the tower even more. Ned not really recalling Ashara too much could just be from it being 15 years ago as young love
I think Ashara is dead as hell, both Ashara and Arthur Dayne represent fantastical tropes of an honourable knight and a beautiful noble woman and their deaths by the end of the rebellion symbolise how everything becomes more morally grey and less fantastical after the rebellion
ASOIAF is too depressing. I choose to believe Ned and Ashara were in love, but the gods co stories against their marriage and Ashara faked her death to move on from the heartbreak and loss. The end.
0:30 What if the reason Davos keeps having fake deaths is because of his lucky finger bones? Instead of dying, his finger bones have held off the Reaper due to their luck, and maybe even due to Melisandre's magic if she still has his finger bones in her possession
Arthur and Ashara traded places - like that one Shakespeare thing
I’ve seen a theory that Ashara moved to the Neck with Howland Reed and fathered John and Meera… what do you think about this? The story from the Reeds talks about everyone she dances either as though the author of the tale was obsessed with her
So a few main things. Ned and Ashara had to have had an ongoing relationship. Cat and Cersei both thinking she could be Jon's mother wouldn't make sense unless they were together. Jon was born at least a year and a half after Harrenhall.
Neds thoughts aren't really reliable. Aside from the fever dream thoughts he also apparently thought of Rhaegar in years, despite Jon living with him. That would even seem to point to Jon not being Rhaegars.
Tyrion also never comments on Shae's eye color. That at least to me seems like foreshadowing as to why he doesn't for Lemore.
The blue rose could be an indication that Aegon goes north.
The entire story makes more sense if when Ned gets to Dorne that there is a Targaryen looking baby at the Tower of Joy, Aegon, and then a Stark looking baby at Starfall, Jon. He takes his son home, and gives his nephew to someone he trusts, the mother of his son.
my personal tinfoil around Ashara: Ned is never specifically named as the Stark that Ashara danced with at Harrenhall. We just hear about Brandon asking on behalf of a shy younger brother, and Barristan repeatedly only refers to Stark. So I think it was actually young Benjen who was in love with her. And after her miscarriage and death, he was so distraught that he joined the watch.
But I also want her to be Jyanna, and those two theories can't both be true...
Benjen join the watch because he feel guilty in Lyanna death and maybe his Father and Older Brother??.
That actually touches on one thing that NEVER made sense to me. Why did Benjen join the Night's Watch? They'd just lost their father, sister, and oldest brother. Their father Rickard didn't have any brothers. Their grandfather Edwyle had only one brother, who died without heirs. Their great-grandfather Willam had three brothers, who also died without any male heirs. Same for their great-great-grandfather Beron Stark. It's not like there's a massive surplus of male Starks running around. If anything, you'd expect Benjen to be married off as soon as possible to produce a few more heirs in case Ned doesn't have any that live to adulthood. And he'd be a pretty good catch for a noble house. So why does he go to the Wall and promises to have absolutely ZERO children? It makes no sense.
A hand maid is a peasant servant. Ashara was a lady in waiting.
I've heard your take on the Blue Rose, and I've got to disagree. The Blue Rose doesn't hint towards any parentage. What it does speak towards is the situation north of the Wall.
The Blue Rose is about Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose of Winterfell. The Starks and Wildlings are one, which by virtue of northern loyalty to the Starks means that the North and everyone beyond the Wall are one.
The rose is about unity and removing of bias, not parentage.
I thought the same thing but it is worth noting that the story of Bael the Bard also kind of parallels Jon story in many ways. The secret child in this story is maybe also a hint at Jon true parentage but that's a stretch.
@archeogeek315 I agree. Saying the Blue Rose is proof of Jon being a Targ is so silly. Whenever Targs or Valyrians in general are mentioned in symbols, the symbols used are fire, ash, smoke, and most of all, violence. Violence towards dissidents, towards naysayers and the like. None of that is present in the Blue Rose vision.
It’s important to consider, regarding the Tourney of Harrenhal, that Barristan Selmy is from one of the main Stormlander houses in the Dornish Marches. It’s all well and good that he thinks back to the tournament and wonders whether he could’ve averted the rebellion by winning in the lists, but I’d wager this is more likely regret of knowing that as the greatest knight of his generation, he should’ve won, and he didn’t because he knew he couldn’t name Ashara his queen of love and beauty. Whether he took a dive because he was facing the heir apparent or was otherwise distracted due to this is up to the individual’s interpretation, but I think the whole point of Barristan’s thoughts about the event is to highlight that even the bravest knights can be found to be craven in a different battlefield (that of love).
12:50
I heard that as "Dark Star is the key to all of this."
It's in Ned's best interest to fan the flame on the rumor that Ashara is Jon's mother. He knows Jon is Rhaegar's son and that house Dayne has Valyrian features. So if Jon grows up to look like his dad, Ned can just shrug and say "ok y'all got me the rumor about Ashara is true" and nobody would look further into it.
Enjoy the channel. Have you considered doing any long-form theory discussions where you compile multiple 10-12 videos into one series to cover a specific nuanced topic?
@8:20 Hey eyes are also described as having been "haunting violet eyes," so we get the impression that her eyes weren't just pretty, they were ex. so beautiful it was hard to look away from them, that kind of incredible beauty in a person's features that is very, VERY rare even among other beautiful people
Ashara faked her death to be with Howland Reed . Meera is her daughter that allegedly died at childbirth
Ned secretly married ashara like Robb did with jeyne. Jon is Ned’s only true born
She left Starfall with Ned and Howland Reed then married Howland Reed. She lives at Greywater Watch in the present timeline.
If Ashara is his mother.... it makes him worthy of Dawn. So that's compelling enough to me.
Why keep her a secret then? Jons mother being Ashara makes the secrecy around her identity completely meaningless and frankly makes Jon going to the Wall nonsensical, if Jons mother was Dornish and Catelyn didnt want him around Ned would have sent him to Dorne IMO. No hate but the secrecy for a secret thats too dangerous for people to know fits more than Neds love affair, not saying it didnt happen it just didnt result in Jon.
Controversial Comment: Danny is the daughter of Ned and Ashara. This about how GRRM uses opposites. John, male, black hair, told he's a bastard, actually the rightful king. Danny, female, silver hair, told she is the rightful queen, actually a bastard. Maybe... MAYBE... she is the mummer's dragon. But no matter what, I'm pretty sure Jojen is Howlan and Meera is Johns twin.
Explain how they passed off a baby born in mid 283 as a baby born in 284? Dany is at LEAST 10 months younger than any baby Ashara could have borne, how do you pass a baby that could very well be walking if not talking off as a newborn?
Darkstar being Ashara’s child makes more sense timeline wise. Not that it’s not a silly theory
What about the song being sung in Dwd about the woman that throws herself from the tower when her prince(RHAEGAR) is killed?
I believe she is important simply because of how early on she is mentioned, like Mance for example, or even Lyanna and Rhaegar. We get false information concerning all these characters initially. George wanted to set the stage for things to come as early as possible, which is why people go over the prologue so much too.
Ashara knew a lot what was going on between R+L for sure and it makes sense she faking her death to live somewhere else. Cannot tell if Ned talked to her about jon but we have to scenarios: 1 - he told her about jon only to find out she knew it; and since rebelion was over and Twin won he decided to hide jon for his protection and she decided to "kill" herself and avoid questions
or 2 - they never talked about jon and she knew everyone on the tower of joy was dead, so decided to fake it and live somewhere else avoiding questions
Don't know about her being with howland, but it would be fun and fit the story
Well obviously Rhaegar, who was in Lyanna's body, warged into Ned, which shocked Ashara to death
And as Rhaegar killed Ashara he said: “N + A = J is pure copium, your theories are shit!!!”
In Deep Geek has the best Ashara theory
Maybe the "Ned would be dead if HR hadn't saved his life" is not a literal fight with Arthur, but maybe in another way, like "he stopped Ned from doing or saying something that could have ended his life".
B+A=D
That's funny.^^
Also, a minotaur?
Ashara Dayne wasn't killed, she died, there is a significant difference between the two...
Great video! The Darkstar thing is interesting but we just don't have enough information about him. I had another thought about who or where Ashara might be if she's still alive. And yes it's dangerously close to tin foil dragonhelm territory but Lysono Maar is quick to point out, maybe too quick, that he is not a woman despite that he looks and dresses like one.
I like the idea that Ned wanted to be associated with Ashara just in case Jon came out with the violet eyes. Something that if he inherited his father’s (Rheagar) eyes could be explained away by claiming Ashara as the mother.
I always like Brandon secretly married ashara because he got her pregnant. As secret as the Starks didn't know. Ned is actually sending Jon to the wall to steal his birth right as the rightful heir to winterfell. Because Ned isn't as honorable as everyone thinks. Most of the Starks aren't, they are as big of bastards as most other houses.
Given what’s been established about Brandon’s relations with women - it seems very plausible that Ned was the one who wanted to court Ashara and they liked each other, but Brandon knocked her up as another conquest, which led to Ned emotionally letting go of her before she died (or “died”)
I mean, I'm convinced Ashara Dayne became Jyarra Reed. It would make sense why Meera would know the Harrenhal Tourney story so well, if it was her parents' "How I First Saw Your Mother" story, on top of being how Howland became a favored vassal of Ned's.
I always like to imagine that Ned had a thing for Ashara, but Brandon hooked up with her anyway. A few people close to the crown would have or could have known. I see Ned as someone who is quietly bitter than Brandon and Lyanna did as they pleased, but he was forced to become Lord and marry someone he didn't want to because of it. "It was all meant for Brandon." Also the whole war thing. Realistically speaking, Ned barely knew his siblings. He spent eight years in the Vale, returning to Winterfell only to deliver Robert's offer of marriage. He was seventeen and still fostering? Robert was older than that, the Lord of Storm's End, and still living in the Vale? Something pretty suspect about that entire scenario.
There's a theory that Ashara came north with Howland and married him. Howland was infatuated with her, even remembering who this supposedly random girl danced with a lot of years later. There's a mention in a Barristan chapter that she got dishonored by Stark in Harrenhal, but we know that Howland was sharing a tent with the Starks. Furthermore, Meera might be the daughter of a Dornishwoman specifically since she is the heir to Greywater Watch over her brother which isn't a northern custom but specifically a Dornish one. And they would have met again as Ned and Howland travelled to Starfall before going north. The theory suggests that the the stillborn baby was that of a servant girl(specifically Jon Snow's wetnurse Wylla. She's mentioned by Edric Storm in an Arya chapter) and that she, Ashara and Howland travelled to Greywater Watch and got married and since then lived there in peace.
I love the B + A = G (Brandon + Ashara = Gerold) theory with Brandon being a womanizer and Ashara maybe liking Ned but being blown away and infatuated with Brandon at the Tourney of Harenhal BUT theirs two reasons the theory it doesn’t work:
1- Darkstar is presumed to be born in 270-274 AC or be in his late twenties by ADWD timeline, pretty much the same age as Jon Snow, Dany or Young Griff.
2- that silverish « very targaryen or lyseni» colored hair with a stripe of black . Both Brandon and Ashara having dark brown hair. The eye color works though with brandon being grey eyes and ashare purple, Darkstars eyes are very dark purple i believe so maybe a greyish mix?
If Ashara is Jons mother he could be the Sword of the Morning. the true story is not about the iron throne…giving him Dawn would have a huge impact on the story as it’s likely Lightbringer
Ashara had daughter not son and Jon has Dayne blood he do not need Ashara blood because Dawn is given to worthy people not to heirs
If there is a somewhat mysterious female character in ASOIAF you can be sure that they are secretly Ashara
I like the theory that Ashara is Jon’s mother and Ned is his father. Ned was planning to bring her to Brandon’s wedding to present her to his father and ask for permission to Marry. She is the “fisherman’s daughter” that survived the storm with Ned and was with him when he learned of his father’s and brother’s deaths. They were in love, and since he was now the Lord of Winterfell, he did not need permission, so they married in secret, consummated (conceiving Jon), parted, and he went north to raise the banners to help Robert. Upon returning to Riverrun, Hoster demanded a marriage to Catelyn in exchange for his support in the rebellion causing Ned to set Ashara aside (to his grief). Jon is older than Rob, making him the true Heir to Winterfell, and the only Stark child who is not a bastard (hell of a twist there). Narratively, this gives Jon Dayne blood, in theory allowing him to wield Dawn, which may be the real Lightbringer. The child born at the Tower of Joy is Aegon, son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, who Ned swears to protect, swaps Aegon with Jon and Ashara (Septa Lemore) secrets him across the Narrow Sea to be raised… Shout out to @theorderofthegreenhand
So the honorable Ned Stark has two wives and a bastard but in fifteen years never attempted to remedy either?
Yep. Pretty much. Two wives and 5 bastards
Close but no cigar Read Preston theory!!!
It was a nice thoery bit grrm already confirmed Ashara isnt it
@@Ashbrash1998when, where and what did he say? That doesn’t sound like something he would do outright
I was kinda stuck in my ways on theories about Lyanna, Jon's parentage, Ned and Ashara. I've calmed down a lot and just think let's just wait and see. There are just so many potentials baby swaps. so many thoughts or no thoughts where there should be on many theories. Things that don't make sense etc.
Jon and Dany's ages, for one. The math doesn't work unless Dany was extremely premature (for R+L=J and A+R=D) There is also the fact that Rhaella would have been 43 with a history of miscarriages and stillbirths, making a healthy child highly improbable. There is a lot of deliberate misinformation going on.
Ashara - ra = Asha
Swap A for O Asha = Osha
Capitalize letters Osha = OSHA
OSHA recordable for dangerous workplace at wall
Therefore Ashara = Jon Connington
THIS
I think the only thing narratively that could come out of Ashara being Jon's mother is that he might inherit the sword Dawn because of it? Something something, Azor Ahai, something something Lightbringer.
Your opening statements were funny, totally made me laugh 😂
Blue rose on the wall maybe doesn't have anything with Lyanna. Blue rose is symbol of Winterfell also and Bael the Bard who ask for rose and then take the daugther leaving rose behind. And Ashara being Jon's mom would make sense because Jon's story isn't about Iron Throne nor dragons, he wants to be heir of Winterfell and if Ned was married with Ashara and Jon was borned not as bastard then he would be rightfull heir of Winterfell. Jon in anything written about him never have anything with Dragons, he only have wolves connection and he is older than Robb and if Ned was married with Ashara, Winterfell would be his. Also dots conneect Robb's will that Jon be his heir. Jon's story is about the North, not southern concerns, Preparing for war for the dawn with Stannis and rest of characters up there. Ned was probably married to Ashara and then to survive war had to beak bonds to get Tully forces securing victory for uprising agaisnt Targs. Ned also said when marrying Catelyn Tully that he broke law of Gods and men. Seems like something pretty big was happening behind the scene and Ned was blaming himself. He did brought girl with him through Sisters isles and everyone was convinced they were pair. Real Lyanna kid is probably Aegon/Young Griff because as Varys describe him, it cannot be kid from Kings Landingg but another one who had time to do all that he described while Kevan was dying
Something I’ve been thinking about is Jon switching the babies at Castle Black and if that could be a clue about any other previous babies being switched.
If for no other reason, the Daynes are important because we learn that Targaryens are not the only ones with purple eyes. Dark Star has dark purple... and she has laughing purple eyes. We don't see this anywhere else - and I bet that is an important fact to know when trying to figure out the overall story behind the story. What gets to me is that her little brother... or is is nephew?... Ned Dayne is named after Ned... and that he was nursed by Willa... who was Jon's wet nurse at Winterfell before she was sent away shortly after the rumor had reached Catlyn's ears that Jon's mother could have been Ashara. So there is obviously more of a connection between the Starks and the Daynes than we know... oh... and the swords... the original Ice and Dawn are supposedly brightly shining pale swords rather than the dark Valeryan steel. I can't think of another pale sword other than the ice swords of the others.
Edric "Ned" Dayne is the nephew of Ashara, Arthur, and Allyria (Beric Dondarrion's fiance, which is how Edric ended-up squiring for Beric.) The reason Edric is Lord Dayne even though Dorne practices absolute primogeniture (boys and daughters are equal in terms of inheritance,) is because his father was the oldest of the 4 Dayne siblings, so when the father died, the title passed to Edric as the child of the previous lord/lady (in this case lord. Edric says to Arya that his father was the head of House Dayne rather than his mother. We have 0 information on who his mother is/was)
I do think Ned may have had a crush on Ashara & she may have reciprocated which would have worked for Rickard's Southern Ambitions but given how things were going it wasn't able to be worked out for them. And as for Ned not thinking of a long lost love...well when you get married or are in another relationship you don't really spend your time reminiscing on past loves
not only ned froze up at the mention of ashara but told catelyn to never ask about JON again.. they might not be mother and child but are definitely close topics in ned's head
Rather than Darkstar, I've always thought that Allyria Dayne was the result of the pregnancy that Ashara supposedly lost. We know she's betrothed to Beric in the first book, when he is around 21 years old, and she's Ned Dayne's "Aunt" even though she's only like 3-4 years older than him. Ashara gets knocked up at Harrenhall, her family hides her due to embarrassment until the child is born and her parents can pass it off as their own. Ned Stark probably knew the secret, since Brandon is probably the father, which is the secret he kept safe and why the Dayne's named Ned after him. I have a feeling both Allyria and Ned were planned for bigger roles before the lost time skip.
Also, even if not true, it's an interesting thought experiment of Beric/Allyria and Barriston/Ashara. Barriston can't forget the hair and eyes of his love 20 years later, but after only a year or less of his extended life, Beric can't remember his betrothed at all. 😢