I'm of Jewish heritage was raised Roman Catholic and then became a Christian in the first century definition. I left the Roman Catholic Church when I was 9 years old. I would not go to a church that didn't preach Christ and him crucified and that all we need is Faith in Christ.
I respect your view. But "pistis in Christ" means "allegiance to the messianic king" and not "believing in Christ" in the evangelical definition. No Jew of the first century would have accepted sola fide/faith alone as a true pistis to the messiah. I highly recommend you Matthew Bates "Salvation by Allegiance alone. Reconsidering Faith, Works and the Gospel of Jesus the King." Short: Paul teaches in Romans 3, 28 that allegiance to Christ /pistis is considered as covenant faithfulness/righteousness /dikaiosyne without converting to Judaism by circumcision and the works of the law. 1. allegiance as true emunah or pistis means more than faith in sola fide. It means trust leading to obedience. It includes obedience. 2. works of the law do only mean ceremonial laws for conversion. Not obedience to Christ! 3. The declaration of being a faithful member in the covenant is a preliminary statement contingent of staying in obedient faith - it is not an absolute verdict of vindication no matter what you do. Shorter: Paul teaches that obedient followers of the messianic king are considered as faithful covenant members without becoming Jews by ceremonial conversion via circumcision, sabbath keeping and food laws (=works of the law). Luther taught that those who have the correct faith in Christ are declared sinless and perfect without any need for any obedience whatsoever. He made three errors: 1. Narrowing down the meaning of pistis to "faith alone" against the meaning of faithfulness/allegiance in the Jewish synagogue of Paul's time. 2. Interpreting erga nomou =works of the law as including obedience to Christ. 3. He accepts the definition of righteousness =sinless perfection propagated by Augustine. But the Jewish definition of dikaiosyne is the "covenant faithfulness of obedient sinners" like in Luke 1, 6. Please keep on distrusting inventions. But much of Protestantism is an invention too. Not Luther defines the meaning of this words but Second Temple Judaism. The result is: obedience to Christ is as part of allegiance necessary for salvation (this sounds catholic). But for Paul allegianc cannot be replaced by sacraments (against Catholicism). Sola fide is false - replacing obedience by sacramentalism is false too.
@@martinospitaletta8198 Of course you must have allegiance to the messiah / Christ. You can't call him lord if he is not the Lord of your whole life....
@@pebear I strongly agree - but there is a movement called free grace that says everybody who has had some kind of believe in Christ for a short time will be saved, even if he lives in constant rebellion or apostasizes! They invent the doctrine that it is possible to enter the kingdom of heaven without inheriting it - so 1Cor 6,9. does not speak of loss of salvation but only loss of rewards... It is a diabolic twisting of scripture. And here you can see the importance of the Old Testament: You cannot twist stories! Like Noah. If he would have had "sola fide - faith that the flood is coming and God will do everything to save him" without building the Ark.. Well he would be in problems🌊. Emunah is trusting so deep that it leads to obedience.
I agree that the understanding of Paul was highjacked early on. I would say that Paul likely did hold the “nomos” in a similarly high regard as any other Pharisaic Jew of his day, but Paul’s epistles are generally concerned with discipline people in living appropriately in light of the soon coming kingdom of God. His supposed negative attitude to the “nomos” is not directed at the “nomos” itself, but towards those who preached the idea that living according to the “nomos” would bring the Kingdom either faster, or at all. This false idea that Paul speaks against should not be considered legalism as Christians often denounce and condemn it, but rather, Paul is confronting the idea that God partners with humanity to bring about the day of his glory. Instead, Paul strongly contends that God alone will be glorified in that day, and no one will be able to stand up with God and say, “I helped.” It is precisely this idea, that God wants our help to rectify the world, to which Paul is so strongly opposed, and in this opposition, he is in complete agreement with Jesus Christ that such an idea is destructive of those who teach it as well as those who learn it.
from my studes i find that paul has to be demonised in order to try and discredit the gospels and therefore turn people away from christ. even josephus the historian is attacked as well basically anything that will cast doubt on God.
Larry Medina facts..but they wanna follow joseph atwill, and denounce the new testament now...when the new testament tells u a heaven exist..when luke 16 shows u what sheol was...revelation1:14 tells of christ being negro with whooly hair...or how bout josephud whole book tells of our customs..my question to atwill and these people do they understand the new testament and Josephus book..cause i do
It is clear that Josephus Flavius was the biblical Saul (St Paul). Both were on the same prison ship that was shipwrecked on Malta, and went to see Nero. Both were persecuting a man called Jesus around Galilee. This explains how Saul was able to arrest and jail followers of Jesus - as Josephus, he was the army commander in command of Galilee. See the book “King Jesus” by Ralph Ellis. Ralph. P.S. Josephus boasting about rabbis consulting with him when aged 14, is the same as rabbis consulting with Jesus when he was 12 (or 14). This is simply a bar mitzvah, where the young lad has to give a Torah reading, and then face some tricky questions about Judaism by a local rabbi. But with Josephus and Jesus being such important aristocrats, they were questioned by high priests, rather than a local rabbi. Why cannot a Jewish academic not see the obvious bar mitzvah in these accounts?
@@jasoncarrera8441 when you trying to make a lie true ,you will go to any extent who say Paul was been kill by Nero we have no historical evidence of his Death and what really Happen outside the New Testament
Who says they were Christian? There was no such thing and Yeshua never called himself Christian Christ or Jesus so how do you figure he was a Jew and studied Torah but then again who what where and when it’s just another guess and we don’t have any knowledge at all about any original oral or writings it is all hyperbolic abstract and at best a flimsy guess!
@@stevenlaupert3089 The moniker Christian or those who follow the Christ was given by the Romans to the new Jewish sect that went by the "Way." They embraced Christian or Christ Followers because that is exactly what Christ told them to do. Follow him...
Paul Bahre the way goes back to Hermes Trismegistus and others way before the so called Christ and again that name Jesus is just a few hundred years old! You need to set aside you indoctrination for awhile look at history from a new set of eyes and ears because you got a big surprise waiting to be unraveled if you would just step outside of your information pool go beyond what you think is the truth because you will find what you thought was truth is far from the truth! If I remember correct it was your comment that said Jesus wasn’t a Greek yet this name is descended from the Greek etymology so it can’t be both either you agree that the so called Jesus was a Jew and therefore has a Jew name how hard is that for you to understand? And when you finally figure this out you will find he wasn’t a Christian nor he never meet Paul and the New Testament is a giant contradiction and Christianity is a deception to enslave your soul mind and body! It’s your choice stay a sleep numb and ignorant keep living out this slave system and see where it gets you!
Everyone and their brother has been shipwrecked near Malta. I have rwad books lately on sinkings. Malta seems to always come up. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shipwrecks_of_Malta
Nonsense! It is amazing that ignorant fools think they know impossible mysteries 2000 years later that no one at the time even considered. So you think that Paul of Tarsus who was in a jail at Rome under Nero was at the same time a Jewish general in Judea and later a friend of Vespasian and Titus and NO ONE in the Christian movement or the Roman government ever suspected it! Silly!
@@michielvdvlies3315 prove a god? Please Any of the 30,000 men have invented just like your god? You can't do it because it's a fictional character out of a fictional book set in the real world and that's what fools people into believing in this multi level marketing business scam of religion you fell for!!!
St. Paul = Zebedeus, Natanael, Zacharias Barachias, Klopas, Heli, Elias, Elymas, Mathan, Matthias brother of Joseph named Justus, Agabus, Agabo, Augustus the elevated thorny agave, Imran, the blessed, the rich, father of the wicked Twin, Ufus & Rufus or Junias & Andronicus or John & Andrew nicknamed Jacobus /James, Cornelius, Dhul Qarnain, possessor of the horns ; Melchi & Zadok, curly Crispus /Mars & wooly Cirrus (Cyrus the enlightened) / Venus or Gog & Magog or juggler / handyman & magician / wizzard, Germanicus ; brother of Claudius Divius, father of Drusus & Nero or Alexander & Stephanos, father of the blessed Lady ; Agrippina minor, grandpa of Nerones Chrestos, James the less-er, Santiago, mono-basus, the rightious / rightfull heir of Tiberius princeps, Helios the Egyptian, re-called from Egypt and fled to Arabia, martyred (poisoned). Quirinus the boss of his servant Qurinius (Lucius Sergius). Slain between the altar and the temple ; prevented from entering the highest office /principality.
I’m tired of the Lies concerning Paul. He was a Herodian not a Pharisee. A Pharisee would never claim to being a Roman Citizen as Paul did. Herodians didn’t follow the Law nor the Torah. You can tell by Paul’s writings neither did he. A month after Paul’s conversion he was seen in Jericho stoning to death a couple of people who were followers of The Way whom Paul supposedly just joined. He must have been hard up to make some cash or something.
You think you're learned about Jewish culture, Torah, religion and history to say that "a pharisee will not claim being a roman citizen". He was a roman citizen maybe because his parents were granted roman citizenship, he lived not in Israel but in Tarsus. Pharisees also were a SECT of Judaism, even Jesus had a pharisaical ideas. Also, did he get rich to say that he wanted cash? Didnt he donate the tzedakah to Jerusalem? You just any other Paul haters dont understand him. There's a worldwide CHURCH because of him, not because of people like you. Christianity would die as a tiny sect of Judaism in the first century, but he brought it to the gentiles who dont need to be Jews that's why we have world wide church. If it werent for him, no christianity, you will certainly not be a christian now
The People of the Way hated Paul as well. They are Judeo-Christian, which has a direct connection with Yeshua unlike Paul who took a different path from the Apostle’s.
Jews wrote the old testament to make the people follow the diety idea to worship the rulers thinking they were worshipping a god and the roman ruling family the flavians copied the jews brainwashing scam and wrote thier new testament to copy what the jews did to fool its subjects into following their diety while unknowingly worshipping the roman rulers. It's all a scam to make people ignorant and believe anything without the proper evidence! Religions are so rediculous!
The Pharisees were a Jewish denomination. And contrary of popular beliefs, Paul wasn't Jewish. And hence, prof. Daniel Boyarin isn't either. As only a Jew can read between the lines and figure out that what Paul wrote (as just one example of many) in Gal. chapter 1 can't possibly, and by no means, be considered Jewish. So Paul was obviously an imposter and a liar. So why did he lie, then? Maybe it's because what he wrote himself, that he wanted to pretend being a Jew in order to convert them. (1 Cor. 9 verse 20.)
You are an ignorant liar and so is Boyarin. Jew may technically mean just Judean - a descendant of Jacob's son Judah BUT at that time, Jew meant ANY surviving Israelite. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul WAS a pHARISEE AND A sTUDENT TO THE pHARISEE RABBI gAMALIEL. smh
I'm of Jewish heritage was raised Roman Catholic and then became a Christian in the first century definition. I left the Roman Catholic Church when I was 9 years old. I would not go to a church that didn't preach Christ and him crucified and that all we need is Faith in Christ.
I respect your view. But "pistis in Christ" means "allegiance to the messianic king" and not "believing in Christ" in the evangelical definition. No Jew of the first century would have accepted sola fide/faith alone as a true pistis to the messiah. I highly recommend you Matthew Bates "Salvation by Allegiance alone. Reconsidering Faith, Works and the Gospel of Jesus the King."
Short: Paul teaches in Romans 3, 28 that allegiance to Christ /pistis is considered as covenant faithfulness/righteousness /dikaiosyne without converting to Judaism by circumcision and the works of the law.
1. allegiance as true emunah or pistis means more than faith in sola fide. It means trust leading to obedience. It includes obedience.
2. works of the law do only mean ceremonial laws for conversion. Not obedience to Christ!
3. The declaration of being a faithful member in the covenant is a preliminary statement contingent of staying in obedient faith - it is not an absolute verdict of vindication no matter what you do.
Shorter: Paul teaches that obedient followers of the messianic king are considered as faithful covenant members without becoming Jews by ceremonial conversion via circumcision, sabbath keeping and food laws (=works of the law).
Luther taught that those who have the correct faith in Christ are declared sinless and perfect without any need for any obedience whatsoever.
He made three errors:
1. Narrowing down the meaning of pistis to "faith alone" against the meaning of faithfulness/allegiance in the Jewish synagogue of Paul's time.
2. Interpreting erga nomou =works of the law as including obedience to Christ.
3. He accepts the definition of righteousness =sinless perfection propagated by Augustine. But the Jewish definition of dikaiosyne is the "covenant faithfulness of obedient sinners" like in Luke 1, 6.
Please keep on distrusting inventions. But much of Protestantism is an invention too.
Not Luther defines the meaning of this words but Second Temple Judaism. The result is: obedience to Christ is as part of allegiance necessary for salvation (this sounds catholic). But for Paul allegianc cannot be replaced by sacraments (against Catholicism). Sola fide is false - replacing obedience by sacramentalism is false too.
@@martinospitaletta8198 Of course you must have allegiance to the messiah / Christ. You can't call him lord if he is not the Lord of your whole life....
@@pebear I strongly agree - but there is a movement called free grace that says everybody who has had some kind of believe in Christ for a short time will be saved, even if he lives in constant rebellion or apostasizes! They invent the doctrine that it is possible to enter the kingdom of heaven without inheriting it - so 1Cor 6,9. does not speak of loss of salvation but only loss of rewards... It is a diabolic twisting of scripture. And here you can see the importance of the Old Testament:
You cannot twist stories!
Like Noah. If he would have had "sola fide - faith that the flood is coming and God will do everything to save him" without building the Ark.. Well he would be in problems🌊. Emunah is trusting so deep that it leads to obedience.
Congratulations.What, do you want a medal or something?
Boyarin starts at 10:45
I agree that the understanding of Paul was highjacked early on. I would say that Paul likely did hold the “nomos” in a similarly high regard as any other Pharisaic Jew of his day, but Paul’s epistles are generally concerned with discipline people in living appropriately in light of the soon coming kingdom of God. His supposed negative attitude to the “nomos” is not directed at the “nomos” itself, but towards those who preached the idea that living according to the “nomos” would bring the Kingdom either faster, or at all.
This false idea that Paul speaks against should not be considered legalism as Christians often denounce and condemn it, but rather, Paul is confronting the idea that God partners with humanity to bring about the day of his glory. Instead, Paul strongly contends that God alone will be glorified in that day, and no one will be able to stand up with God and say, “I helped.” It is precisely this idea, that God wants our help to rectify the world, to which Paul is so strongly opposed, and in this opposition, he is in complete agreement with Jesus Christ that such an idea is destructive of those who teach it as well as those who learn it.
from my studes i find that paul has to be demonised in order to try and discredit the gospels and therefore turn people away from christ. even josephus the historian is attacked as well basically anything that will cast doubt on God.
Live and let live. Complicated stuff.
Enjoy the show...
@@patrickbinford590 also very interesting connecting all the dots..
I agree paul was trying to articulate the process of caterpillar turning into a butterfly ..which could seem to the caterpillar as talking against it
Paul's contemporary Jews always regarded him as a traitor.
That only makes sense if he understood and preached"nomos"
correctly,as Josephus did.
shout outs to Werner Herzog impersonating a priest
HAHAHA Timosee Tradewail was attacked by da beers! :) A reference to Werner's documentary Grizzly Man!
All Gentiles nations speaking about Josephus whose image they destroyed.
Larry Medina facts..but they wanna follow joseph atwill, and denounce the new testament now...when the new testament tells u a heaven exist..when luke 16 shows u what sheol was...revelation1:14 tells of christ being negro with whooly hair...or how bout josephud whole book tells of our customs..my question to atwill and these people do they understand the new testament and Josephus book..cause i do
It is clear that Josephus Flavius was the biblical Saul (St Paul).
Both were on the same prison ship that was shipwrecked on Malta, and went to see Nero.
Both were persecuting a man called Jesus around Galilee.
This explains how Saul was able to arrest and jail followers of Jesus - as Josephus, he was the army commander in command of Galilee.
See the book “King Jesus” by Ralph Ellis.
Ralph.
P.S. Josephus boasting about rabbis consulting with him when aged 14, is the same as rabbis consulting with Jesus when he was 12 (or 14). This is simply a bar mitzvah, where the young lad has to give a Torah reading, and then face some tricky questions about Judaism by a local rabbi. But with Josephus and Jesus being such important aristocrats, they were questioned by high priests, rather than a local rabbi.
Why cannot a Jewish academic not see the obvious bar mitzvah in these accounts?
why can't these brainiacs see the 800lb gorilla in the room?
Except Josephus wasn’t executed by Nero…
Lol
@@jasoncarrera8441 when you trying to make a lie true ,you will go to any extent who say Paul was been kill by Nero we have no historical evidence of his Death and what really Happen outside the New Testament
Jesus was an important aristocrat when he was 12? What is the source for that claim?
The Apostles of Christ were NOT Roman Catholic. They were Jewish, Christians ...
Who says they were Christian? There was no such thing and Yeshua never called himself Christian Christ or Jesus so how do you figure he was a Jew and studied Torah but then again who what where and when it’s just another guess and we don’t have any knowledge at all about any original oral or writings it is all hyperbolic abstract and at best a flimsy guess!
@@stevenlaupert3089 The moniker Christian or those who follow the Christ was given by the Romans to the new Jewish sect that went by the "Way." They embraced Christian or Christ Followers because that is exactly what Christ told them to do. Follow him...
Paul Bahre the way goes back to Hermes Trismegistus and others way before the so called Christ and again that name Jesus is just a few hundred years old! You need to set aside you indoctrination for awhile look at history from a new set of eyes and ears because you got a big surprise waiting to be unraveled if you would just step outside of your information pool go beyond what you think is the truth because you will find what you thought was truth is far from the truth! If I remember correct it was your comment that said Jesus wasn’t a Greek yet this name is descended from the Greek etymology so it can’t be both either you agree that the so called Jesus was a Jew and therefore has a Jew name how hard is that for you to understand? And when you finally figure this out you will find he wasn’t a Christian nor he never meet Paul and the New Testament is a giant contradiction and Christianity is a deception to enslave your soul mind and body! It’s your choice stay a sleep numb and ignorant keep living out this slave system and see where it gets you!
you ever read the koine greek??? what does Kathalou means?
@@stevenlaupert3089 The word Jew is just a few hundred years old. Nasoreans, Nazareans, Nazarenes, were the first.
Flavius Josephus was the Apostle Paul - too many parellels in the historic record to be random.
Everyone and their brother has been shipwrecked near Malta. I have rwad books lately on sinkings. Malta seems to always come up.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shipwrecks_of_Malta
Nonsense! It is amazing that ignorant fools think they know impossible mysteries 2000 years later that no one at the time even considered. So you think that Paul of Tarsus who was in a jail at Rome under Nero was at the same time a Jewish general in Judea and later a friend of Vespasian and Titus and NO ONE in the Christian movement or the Roman government ever suspected it! Silly!
If gods were true these discussions would not be happening!
if God wasnt real this discussion wouldnt have happened
@@michielvdvlies3315 prove a god? Please Any of the 30,000 men have invented just like your god? You can't do it because it's a fictional character out of a fictional book set in the real world and that's what fools people into believing in this multi level marketing business scam of religion you fell for!!!
St. Paul = Zebedeus, Natanael, Zacharias Barachias, Klopas, Heli, Elias, Elymas, Mathan, Matthias brother of Joseph named Justus, Agabus, Agabo, Augustus the elevated thorny agave, Imran, the blessed, the rich, father of the wicked Twin, Ufus & Rufus or Junias & Andronicus or John & Andrew nicknamed Jacobus /James, Cornelius, Dhul Qarnain, possessor of the horns ; Melchi & Zadok, curly Crispus /Mars & wooly Cirrus (Cyrus the enlightened) / Venus or Gog & Magog or juggler / handyman & magician / wizzard, Germanicus ; brother of Claudius Divius, father of Drusus & Nero or Alexander & Stephanos, father of the blessed Lady ; Agrippina minor, grandpa of Nerones Chrestos, James the less-er, Santiago, mono-basus, the rightious / rightfull heir of Tiberius princeps, Helios the Egyptian, re-called from Egypt and fled to Arabia, martyred (poisoned). Quirinus the boss of his servant Qurinius (Lucius Sergius). Slain between the altar and the temple ; prevented from entering the highest office /principality.
en??????
@@michielvdvlies3315 and not Josephus.
@@willempasterkamp862 dat was mn vraag niet je noemt het hele telefoonboek op zonder enige uitleg wat je precies bedoelt!!!
@@michielvdvlies3315 De Germanicus-tak van de julio-claudius familie overlapt aardig. Dat zijn dus verheven ceasars oftewel ; Verkozenen, Nazore-ers.
@@willempasterkamp862 leg die pijp neer!!!
I’m tired of the Lies concerning Paul. He was a Herodian not a Pharisee. A Pharisee would never claim to being a Roman Citizen as Paul did. Herodians didn’t follow the Law nor the Torah. You can tell by Paul’s writings neither did he.
A month after Paul’s conversion he was seen in Jericho stoning to death a couple of people who were followers of The Way whom Paul supposedly just joined. He must have been hard up to make some cash or something.
Liar !!!!!!!
Lol Where did you get that? Did you live in the first century to know about that? Its you who are lying.
You think you're learned about Jewish culture, Torah, religion and history to say that "a pharisee will not claim being a roman citizen". He was a roman citizen maybe because his parents were granted roman citizenship, he lived not in Israel but in Tarsus. Pharisees also were a SECT of Judaism, even Jesus had a pharisaical ideas. Also, did he get rich to say that he wanted cash? Didnt he donate the tzedakah to Jerusalem? You just any other Paul haters dont understand him. There's a worldwide CHURCH because of him, not because of people like you. Christianity would die as a tiny sect of Judaism in the first century, but he brought it to the gentiles who dont need to be Jews that's why we have world wide church. If it werent for him, no christianity, you will certainly not be a christian now
The People of the Way hated Paul as well. They are Judeo-Christian, which has a direct connection with Yeshua unlike Paul who took a different path from the Apostle’s.
@@GloriasHubby What's your evidence? Jewish Christians did not hate Paul. You're an ignorant liar.
Jew goes back in time, rewrites the Bible for us, Christianity is all about the Torah, you're welcome!
Jews wrote the old testament to make the people follow the diety idea to worship the rulers thinking they were worshipping a god and the roman ruling family the flavians copied the jews brainwashing scam and wrote thier new testament to copy what the jews did to fool its subjects into following their diety while unknowingly worshipping the roman rulers. It's all a scam to make people ignorant and believe anything without the proper evidence! Religions are so rediculous!
@@snowrider4495 exactly my conclusions as well.
@@lisaloveschuble2359 you are a smart person!
the torah came by Moses, grace and truth came by Yeshua HaMoshiach
The Pharisees were a Jewish denomination. And contrary of popular beliefs, Paul wasn't Jewish. And hence, prof. Daniel Boyarin isn't either. As only a Jew can read between the lines and figure out that what Paul wrote (as just one example of many) in Gal. chapter 1 can't possibly, and by no means, be considered Jewish. So Paul was obviously an imposter and a liar. So why did he lie, then? Maybe it's because what he wrote himself, that he wanted to pretend being a Jew in order to convert them. (1 Cor. 9 verse 20.)
You are an ignorant liar and so is Boyarin. Jew may technically mean just Judean - a descendant of Jacob's son Judah BUT at that time, Jew meant ANY surviving Israelite. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul WAS a pHARISEE AND A sTUDENT TO THE pHARISEE RABBI gAMALIEL. smh
What BS is this.. Pretending to be Jewish is impossible among the early Christians