When you shouldn’t focus on early edging in your skiing | Podcast with Ski Dad Tv
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Meet Joe Dunn a former ski racer and coach turned Ski Dad and Instructor at Deer Valley Ski resort. In this podcast we learn how Joe made more progress by “watching what the best skiers did” instead of just listening to what people “told him to do”. There are some great insights into high end carving that you may not hear elsewhere and Joe shares these through his own experiences on the slopes.
For aspiring skiers and ski racers there are some great technical takeaways you can try when next on snow.
For the ski instructors and coaches there are a few important lessons around language and the words we use when coaching.
Joe and I hope you find this chat ignites a fire of curiosity around your skiing and the way you coach skiing.
You can checkout Joe’s RUclips channel here: / @skidadtv
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Omg, Tom, you are truly the glue that holds the skiing community together. You can literally collaborate with anyone and everyone.
That is really nice to hear 👂 thank you 🙏
Can’t wait to bring people more!
As someone who did a bit of racing in ski school but who is only now in my 20s getting serious about carving, it's taken mental effort to get over my pride not skiing black diamonds as much because I actually want to improve my carving technique on greens and blues. And you know what, I've had so much more fun this past season ripping green and blue runs on my Blizzard Thunderbird R13s than I think I've ever had carving all-mountain skis on black diamonds. And I'm a much better skier now. I know it'll take a lot of work to actually get to a point where I can cleanly arc turns on a black run, and it'll be a tough, physical, challenge rather than the low-angulation zooming I used to do down black runs on my old all-mountain skis.
Hearing these two expert skiers talk about how it's nearly impossible to clearly arc a turn on a black run is great to hear. I'm no longer going to worry about having to slide into turns on steep slopes, because railing super long turns isn't really the most fun, enjoyable experience when a bit of finesse and smear can allow for more dynamic carves across the hill.
Love this! One thing that’s helped me over the years is also hearing from other better skiers about what to expect. Setting expectations that keep you motivated is so important. Keep it up! Sounds like your approach to improvement will lead to great outcomes over time. Play the long game
Movie forward, I think Move Your Feet Behind is a way better description of what really happening. And when you add grab the side of the hill to my mindset everything just naturally falls into place. I wish that I had explained this like that 2 years ago
So, full disclosure, I'm an instructor. But one of the things that has been an absolute mystery is the fundamental around fore/aft balance. It says something really vague about controlling pressure along the length of the ski. And for six years, I've been trying to understand what we are trying to do fore/aft at initiation. My working understanding up to this point is that you're trying to bend the soft tip of the ski at initiation. Why? Answer: to be able to ski a tighter arc and to use that force of bending the ski to control speed as you enter the fall line on steep terrain. What I'm hearing you guys say here is, there's another option. That other option uses rotation over edging to steer the skis quicker at the top of the turn to point them where you intend to go. Then you can "sting", transferring that energy into the ski, bending it, and finishing clean. Is that correct?
Full disclosure, another instructor here with 53 years of experience teaching high-level privates. I think there may be an aspect of Joe and Tom's discussion that was missing from your description, possibly because your description relies on PSIA terminology. While there is indeed some rotary or steering component involved in their options for the top of the turn, I think the more important aspect of the movements they were describing is a lateral displacement of the feet. This displacement moves the unweighted feet across under the body in a direction up the hill and towards the outside of the new turn. As they described, you can change the hip/feet relationship either by moving the hips down the hill towards the inside of the turn, or by moving the feet uphill and towards the outside of the turn. Both are functional movements that can be applied individually or in tandem depending on the desired turn. This movement is not instead of edging because it is actually the fastest way to establish high edge angles in the top of the turn. The distinction is that those high edge angles are not engaged to grip or "sting" the snow until a later point in the turn, before or after the fall-line. Hope that makes sense in describing another aspect of their conversation.
Boom you got it! Thanks for such a clear explanation for us all.
OMG I’m trying to understand what strathound and obi-john are talking but all I hear is Charlie Brown’s Teacher ! Too complicated for me. I think I might need ( Improving Skiing For Dummies )
@@leftycut1 - hey lefty, fellow lefty here. Sorry, when instructors are talking to one another, we use fairly technical language. We tend to not use the same language with our students for the reason you bring up above. If there is anything I can help explain, just let me know. Or if you'd like to come out to Breckenridge and do some laps in a lesson, my calendar is pretty open at the moment. :)
@@strathound Thanks for the response. I’m just an old retired guy who works a couple days a week at the tubing park at my local ski area. I get free skiing and rentals and I am getting better but I just want be the “ old guy with good form “ I just bought a new pair of skis and boots and have been surfing the web voraciously for any content that can help me. There is some great content out there but I want to practice the right stuff. I probably should have spent the money on lessons (just couldn’t resist a super deal on last year’s models) but the rentals I felt were holding me back. Too chattery as I pick up speed. I hope to someday get out west . Sorry for the rambling Think Snow !!!
This is interesting but also confusing about sliding the top of the turn. I have never raced so for me the emphasis is on controlling speed rather than maintaining. On a steep slope, and I mean really steep, particularly with crud or fresh snow, I would slide the bottom of the turn. This is the opposite, am I doing it wrong?
Just to clarify my level, I can carve the whole turn on a red or easy black but it tires me out so I am exploring the science and more relaxed ways of skiing to preserve me for the day.
Edit - I found Joe’s short video where he talks about scrubbing speed, it comes together for me now!
Nice thanks for coming back after you found your answer! Good luck applying next !
Even Ligety says he wishes he had Odermatts timing in the turns. He said Odermatt is the only one making only “one” turn without adjustments.
30 years ago Italian Olympic champion Alberto Tomba kind of set the whole form thing on fire with what I would consider a really poor (for then) style of turn initiation. But who am I to argue. He was successful during his time. I spent the 80’s as a ski instructor at a major ski resort on the east coast. It was constantly drummed into our heads that we needed to ski exactly like the ski school director/ PSIA way. I learned a lot as a lifelong skier in my 20’s at the time. A lot of what is taught by the PSIA is relevant. But biomechanically we are all a little different which will make us revert to what works for us. Great video.
Be interesting to see how some of this crosses over to Carv performance metrics. Seeing how Joe is affiliated, etc. too......
LOL. I love it, The ski patrol instructors are like the comments. They miss the whole dynamic of skiing, and harp on hand position and similar cliches. Most are intermediate level skiers, but have perfect hand position.
Jump and there isn't any edge early. Got to be in good shape.
Wow, talk to me once you ski some legit black diamond trails. 😂
What matters is a clean ski when it is significantly pressured. The steeper the pitch, the later in the turn the pressure builds. Futile to try to pressure above the fall line on a steep pitch.
Thats very well said ! That is especially true with gs skis!
Awesome discussion. I agree that different techniques may work better for different individuals. If we all ski'd the exact same techniques we would look like a bunch of robots on the hill. I love noticing the different types of "Steez" other skiers have. On the topic about steepness on camera, I really wish there was a way to show how steep a slope actually is, it might change the perception some of the keyboard warriors have when viewing ski videos, but I'm sure the trolls would still find something wrong, lol.
Great discussion. All you are saying is so evident and clear to the ski race community that it makes me crazy that it is transgressive for all-mountain skiers. Looking at WC races on TV can confirm 100% what you are saying. The problem in this country (USA) is PSIA controlling the ski narrative and, worst, influencing ski instruction in big resorts. On top of that, USSA needs to do more to counterbalance PSIA's dominance in the ski community. PSIA skiing may be effective for novice skiers, but once they have passed the essential learning, it is ineffective and limits skiers' progress. It needs to be updated and reflect a greater understanding of modern skiing.
When I was competing on Cow cutting horses I wanted to ride like the greats. I’m sure all their fundamentals were solid but if you showed me a silhouette only of the top 20 cutting, I could have told you who everyone of them were. All individual style within the fundamentals.
Great points, but I don't buy the tuning opinion. Tuning is important, but the difference between hand tuning and machine tuning is psychological at best. The difference between a "serrated and a polished" edge is negligible. Look at the science. The gravitational and other forces far out weigh and edge finish effect.
I do use 200, 400, 600, 1,000 diamond stones and an Arkansas stone to hone the edge. A tuned ski makes a big difference over an untuned ski. Not buying the machine versus hand though.
Interesting points about the detuning. I stopped detuning when I went to shaped skis. Maybe I will give it a try, and see the difference.
I think Joe is just expressing how in “tune” he is with his ski tune. I can barely tell the difference between a Cabernet and Merlot but others taste all sorts of interesting things.
@@Bigpictureskiing My comment really wasn't a criticism so much as a general comment on how psychology factors into concepts. I believe he feels what he says, however I do not think it is physical. His mind is convinced that there is a difference, so he feels it.
I think your wine analogy is perfect. I think people imagine hints of oranges, etc.
It would be interesting in doing a blind test have Joe ski 5 hand tuned skis and 5 machine tuned skis, and see if he can tell the difference.
Thanks again for the video. I watched some of his other videos and I learned a few things to fine tune my skiing.
Not that I am a pro, but I do know a bit about the sport. I have skied for 60 of my 61 years of life. Patrolled for 20, taught my 6 kids to ski, 3 of whom became patrollers.
What a great video. Thank you Joe for your time. I totally agree with you on the hips forward, what the heck. That is all I was taught as a racer. I coached that for five years mid 90s to 2000.
Glad you enjoyed it Rick.
I think it’s an important first step to learn that perfect turn. The discussion here for steep is advanced beyond that. There are no World Cup racers carving the top of the turn on steep. I do have a personal bias toward a simultaneous edge roll even on steep for at least the first minute part, maybe even just a centimeter. I think it locks the edge/carve location in your brain and it’s easier to get back to it after a stivot.
I agree it’s an important part of skiing to learn the roll on. Im constantly working on refining the top of my turn. Millimeter by millimeter
Really interesting discussions like this with fresh perspective from athletes who understand the nuances of their sport is always hugely valuable- keep up the great work guys!
Wow great video. I think I do the same, more out of necessity than plan. I have been trying to "fix" the high portion of the turn, but have been unsuccessful on steeps. Now I know why.
Mikaela is the very best at the top of the turn, where pitch allows, in slalom and enables her to generate speed down toward the gate.
Since I know you’re both CARV users (ambassadors?), I wonder your thoughts about the app always telling me I need to get better at early edging. Watching this video and listening to Joe makes me think the app needs a bit of an update no? Or am missing something?
Well funny you should ask that. Early edging is a change in the boots/skis in in the roll dimension. What confuses people is they think it must also mean the skis carve a clean track. Not necessarily.
I’m working on a video around this with carv this November in Austria. Stay tuned for some really useful help on this one. I bet we can get your early edging scores up ⬆️ whilst still giving you freedom to control and not have early pressure in the steeps like skidad and I talk about
@@Bigpictureskiing nice! And I very much appreciate the response
@@lorenroot7667 no worries 😉
Good Good Good!! I am so glad you guys are doing what you are doing. Every single point in this video is so good in my view. Toms earlier point using Carbon footbeds is right on. Thanks for having forward thinking. Without it equipment would never progress. Don't ever let Na sayers stand in the way.
Thanks George 😀
On the East (Ice) Coast I spend much of my time on skis on boiler plate ice and wonder “is there a way to look good on this?”
While the answer may well be “no!” It’s a good way to allow permission to experiment into how I can ski it better. And whenever I get on actual snow it’s just effortless joy.
But imo everyone needs to have multiple tools in their skiing/boarding to shed speed just for safety’s sake. I’ve never understood the ‘speed without turns (or control’ thing. I don’t care how they achieve it, just don’t hit me.
Have fun out there, appreciate you and your guests Tommo.
Thanks mate appreciate you following along. Glad this has sparked some creativity in what you want to do on snow/ice next season
I totally agree with this even though I haven't raced since I was thirteen, 55 years ago. I love to get on my edge early and ride it all the way through the turn. It's a groovy feeling. And I think every good skier should be able to do it on green or blue terrain. But coming from a backcountry perspective, there are lots of conditions where that isn't optimal. I have never been able to grok the language about moving your hips downhill. Joe's description of the force needing to be directed to the outside of the turn. On steep terrain, making only pure carved turns from the top generates too much speed and you need to be able to slide into the turn and engage your edges at a point where you can finish the turn in control and not constantly be fighting to get out of the pattern of always being late. I do think there are two ways to be late in the end of the turn. One is as I said, carrying too much speed when you have to make a specific turn either to be fast through gates or skiing a steep tight line where you can't miss the next turn. No-fall zones are when I don't want that much speed. The other is when intermediate skiers don't know how to get on their edges until after they have crossed the fall line. Then the turns are always finished by skidding and it's late because everything is late due to a very slow edge change. Those skiers need to learn how to get on their edge earlier and ride it. But that's not what Joe is talking about. Great conversation and I love Joe's videos!
Yes that’s it there are several ways ski racers get late ⏰
Glad you enjoyed this Joe is a legend!
Great conversation Gents!
Thanks 🙏
YES!! I’ve been waiting for this interview! My two favorite channels unite! 🤣⛷️🔥🤙
Awesome! Stoked you follow us both thank you. Joe and I will be chatting again for sure