Beginners Guide: Building a Champion Fighter in Dungeons and Dragons 5e
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... This video is designed to help new players build a Champion Fighter in D&D 5e. we take you through all the options, important choices, and features that will get you from character creation up to 5th level.
This video is Sponsored by Arora! Live on Kickstarter now. check it out here. ghostfiregaming.com/DUDE_AR01...
TIME STAMPS
0:00 - Sponsor
0:58 - Intro
3:35 - What’s The Fantasy?
5:31 - Level 1
5:45 - Generating Ability Scores
8:37 - Racial Bonuses
11:35 - Skills & Proficiencies
13:51 - Backgrounds
18:00 - Equipment
20:06 - Calculating Armour Class
21:00 - Fighting Style
23:20 - Second Wind
24:35 - Level 2
25:27 - Action Surge
27:01 - Level 3
27:45 - Improved Critical
28:24 - Level 4
28:42 - Ability Score Increase
30:14 - Feats
32:55 - Level 5
33:09 - Proficiency Bonus
33:41 - Extra Attack
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Игры
My fighter’s not a champion, but he tries real hard, and I appreciate the effort.
I feel this . I’ve got a fighter/ barbarian Goliath . But secretly he just wants to stay home and grow fruits and vegetables
Mine isn’t a champion either, but the echo is.
My fighter has always wanted to be the champion but he just keeps on being the runner-up.
At one time he was awarded a medal for being faster than an Expeditious Retreat.
hes a champion in my heart
Lol 😆
i wont lie, i absolutely adore yalls "two different paths" build videos, where you two make your own versions of builds over just talking about a singular build. its always really interesting to see multiple different takes in one video
This is wild, after watching hundreds of hours of high-concept speculation and optimization of all manner of 5e content, it's real weird watching you Dudes take a step back and do something... basic, lol.
Hopefully lots of folks find this useful!
i can't imagine anyone stating how to build a basic martial character for a beginner any better guys! awesome job as always. are you planning on doing more? eg a berserker barbarian, life cleric, thief rogue, evocation wizard, pact of the fiend warlock, draconic sorcerer, oath of devotion paladin, lore bard etc etc. then the DM could show those videos to new players as they build their character
Yes, they are. I expect one from each of the core classes.
i could also see light cleric, divination (idk it just vibes with "basic" wizard i guess) or scribe wizard, pact of the great old one, or eloquence bard
I've done the deadly champion archer before and that stuff is legit. I paired it up with 3 levels of Scout Rogue to give a little extra mobility as well so it's easier to stay out of enemy reach
A couple of years ago my friends and I started our first ever campaign. The DM made a Champion Fighter PC that would help us learn the ropes of the game and go with us on our journey. This dude pops off crits left and right and is super clutch in battle. He ended up having a fling with this strange Sorceror/Warlock chick and we decided that he should then multiclass into a Wild Magic Barbarian that got his new abilities as some kind of magic STD lol.
What a fantastic idea for a video. I imagine writing this one was triple the work for you, but the results are worth it. This game really needs help welcoming new players, and this video nails it.
I’ve always had a soft spot for the champion. Gotta love good ol’ Hardwon Surefoot. He may have been basic to play, but still one of my favourite live play characters of all time
Damn right
Watch This!
Shout out to the 2 Crew
The champion takes me back to old school D&D. It can be a very fun character to play
6'6 of calf and quad
I know a lot of people consider the champion to be a beginner class, but to me it can be a ton of fun for someone with a lot of experience as well. It can take you back to the old school D&D feel.
Nah I got too many cool character ideas to waste the few sessions I get on a champion fighter
@@DankBobRoss ok 👍🏻. Not sure what your real point is, since the entire point I made is it can bring back an old school nostalgia for those of us that played AD&D, but hey, if you wanna min max battle masters or other subclasses, have at it. We all already know this…..
@@thetowndrunk988 not really a point tryin to be made
I like the idea of playing a champion fighter who knows that he is basic and is stubbornly refusing to let that slow him down.
I think the Piercer feat would be a great choice for Kelly's character. Gives him +1 Dex as well and a very usefull ability for his bow and shortswords.
Hypothetical Champion Build: make strength your highest stat, choose Dueling Fighting Style, take Fighting initiate feat and choose Thrown Weapon Fighting, take Two-Weapon Fighting at level 10, and take the Piercer Feat (maybe also Slasher and/or Crusher). At level 11, RAW and Max strength, you can thrown 4 weapons and deal 9 static damage with all of them (5 from STR, 2 from dueling, 2 from Thrown Weapon fighting), also with piercer allowing you to reroll damage and extra dice on crits. The only downside, you have to carry a LOT of throwing weapons
Get some magic throw and recall weapon?
If you want to play a Phil Taylor or Michael van Gerwen type, you can even make a few modifications to this idea. You can swap Piercer for Sharpshooter, swap Two-Weapon Fighting for Archery, and swap any other thrown weapon for Darts. Darts are the only thrown weapon that is actually a ranged weapon (rather than a melee weapon you can throw), so they're the only thrown weapon that benefits from Archery and Sharpshooter.
You can either get a slightly better to hit bonus (+11 from +5 STR, +4 Prof, and +2 Archery Style) with the same +9 to damage or a more modest but still reasonable +6 to hit for a bonkers +19 damage w/ Sharpshooter. Thrown weapons mostly have small damage dice, so losing the ability to re-roll 1s from Piercer is a relatively small cost to pay for Sharpshooter boosts, and you still get to wear a shield to crank your plated up AC to 20
@@Oscar_Milde you have to be careful though that your DM doesn't give every monster 501 HP.
@@Oscar_Milde well you could still get Piercer, especially with a Champion build that extra die on a city may add up. That said Darts have one drawback with the build I suggested, it’s a ranged weapon and therefore doesn’t benefit from the Dueling fighting style.
Slight nitpick, but I think you would lose dueling on one of the attacks… since TWF implies that you’re holding both weapons at the same time to qualify for the bonus action attack.
I always find it funny how many role playing games don't mind the fact that you need a certain amount of strength in order to use a bow that is suitable for combat, meaning a bow with a decent range and damage potential. Has anyone of you who don't do muscle training or archery ever tried to draw the string of a 60lbs bow or even a stronger one? I myself had a really hard time doing so, and I consider myself of about average strength.
Nonetheless, nice video, guys!
This is a very well put and helpful explanation of character building as well as character specific play style. Well done
What I like about it is that it's a dungeon dudes episode to which I could link someone who hasn't played, and they wouldnt be swamped with mechanics and hypotheticals they have no experience with.
I appreciate how you guys tackle each of these class guides like it's my first video about 5e. Refreshes basics and makes sure i dont forget anything. Clarifying potential confusing rules.
Hey! I appreciate you guys. I enjoy your content. I recognize your love for the game and your devotion to put out quality content. Thank you!
Videos like this are what really helps walk new players through character creation and introduction to the game. Very well done, I appreciated the straightforward explanation you both provided on two different versions of this build.
I really appreciate these longer form beginner friendly vids! I have been playing a fighter (battle master) for a few years now, and I still learned something new!
Always looking forward to getting more Dungeon Dudes in my life!
Love this, hoping to see more episodes like it, excellent tool to help newer players!
Woah, I wasn't expecting this. My prediction is using the extra fighter feats to make the most boring subclass in the game just a little more interesting
Fighters are kings of Feat specializations. You get so many ASIs by level up that you can afford to pick several flavor Feats along the way.
Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, & Sentinel will make any fighter a powerhouse in the field.
Add in Lucky and Tough and you’ve got one of the most resilient characters in the game with some of the most consistent damage outputs.
Putting some points into WIS, CHA, or INT gives your character roleplay opportunities outside of combat. Being the one that can charm the nobles or is a master tactician in the war room can really play up the All-Purpose feel that a champion brings.
@@ChrisBri77on I tried to give my Champion Fighter a little bit of extra RP utility in some other areas as well. There's the straightforward stuff like Intimidation and Survival which is generally expected, but I also dipped into Animal Handling. My backstory for him involved him apprenticing for a sellsword company during his adolescence and "proving" himself by serving as a glorified stable hand. Later, after he became a full-fledged member and got a few years of service under his belt, he ended up becoming the guy in charge of managing the company's kennel of trained war dogs on campaign.
It ended up leading to some pretty neat interactions both in and out of combat.
If you're a champion with consistent advantage and Elven Accuracy, you'll have a crit chance of about 1/4 per attack, and that's strong
It certainly feels strong, yeah. Rolling a Crit is one of the most fun things in the game
Now strong? Nah, this is mathematically among the weakest subclasses for fighter, if not THE weakest
@@marcos2492 If you multiclass into Barbarian, Paladin or Rogue, those Crits start to scale really fast though. Even if you do not get to that 18-20 crit range(requires level 15 Champion), getting to reroll a dice during advantage rolls(Elven Accuracy) gives roughly 27% chance to crit(or roughly 1 out of 4). When you compare that to most characters being restricted to 5-10%(if they have advantage), that is a pretty big spike.
In addition to the crit damage(enhanced by Barbarian crit damage, Rogue Sneak attack dice, or a Paladin Smite), crits will hit regardless of the targets armor class(including cover bonuses) or other negative flat modifiers from spells or abilities affecting your character(like Bane or Sharpshooter). That does a lot for your reliability as a damage dealer.
If using a piercing weapon, consider getting the Piercer feat(adds an additional weapon damage die on each crit).
Would it be worth the levels to pair that with a paladin dip (and maybe a full caster as well)?
@@uniqueusername_ It all depends on what you want your character to do.
For example, a Fighter 12/Paladin 8 will get their Aura of Protection and your 7th level oath feature. You also get 2 ASI.
On the other hand, a Fighter 12/Paladin 4/Ranger 4 will have the same amount of ASI and health, same amount of spell slots(but not the same available spells), an extra skill proficiency and some of the early specializations from both subclasses. However, it requires more in terms of Attribute prerequisites(13 Strength, 13 Dex, 13 Wisdom and 13 Charisma).
If you add full caster levels(like Sorcerer), you usually lose a lot of combat prowess(health and abilities that allows for stronger attacks) and you have to consider if you need to wield a casting focus.
Get the Piercer feat and you get 3 Damage dice rolls.
(If you play a Half Orc it’s 4 damage dice)
I love that you both made a Dexterity and Strength based Fighter respectively. Showing off two different ways to make a character based on the same subclass is great so new players like myself can see different ways to do fun stuff.
Bros, this beginners guide thing is SUPER helpful, thanks to y'all so much! Keep up the awesome work guys, I admire you both a lot!
This is a great guide! Clear without being overwhelming. Fantastic to build 2 of the class, showing how easy it is to customize the fighter.
When my group creates characters, we select a background before choosing any skill proficiencies. That's because sometimes the chosen background comes with proficiencies.
The thumbnail for this video is hilarious. It seems to show - just - how excited Monty is about talking about Champion Fighters for beginner players hahah
This is a great beginners guide! It touched on a lot of concepts that were very confusing for me when I was getting started.
These Beginner guides are great! My fiancé is getting more into D&D but gets overwhelmed by my descriptions and explanations. She likes the breakdowns as well as the options you give on how to play in different ways
I love this breakdown! Definitely looking forward to seeing more of these for other combinations! 👍🏼👍🏼
Saw the title, laughed a bit, then got real stoked. Secretly love the champion
The Champion is a guilty pleasure of many of us. We love it.
I really appreciate this guide, while I'm not new to D&D, I have some friends that are new and videos like this make it easier to get them into the game. One thing I suggest you guys do if you continue the series with more beginners guides would be to show a character sheet on the screen and where to fill in the information that you are choosing so it is easier to follow along. You could potentially even provide links to the PDFs of the sheets for the characters you designed, so if someone wanted to pick them up and play or make minor tweaks they could. Great job overall.
As posted in the cleric video, my son has come of age to DND, he is a more martial individual. This video was able to perfectly grant the knowledge required for him to go this route and get him exited to get started...
So thank you, Dudes.
Many a fun family or family and friends game night are about to be had.
My favorite class and subclass, haven’t watched it yet but I’m hype to see your builds.
These videos always come out when I’m playing one this character. Nice
Love that you guys are looking at doing some beginner guides to help people new to the game, learn how to build basic characters to get started.
I also like going into great detail and thinking about all the nuisances of all things D&D.
However, I would encourage you to look at creating shorter videos for beginner guides, just on principle.
I would look at how you can distill these basic guides down to 10-15 minutes, so newer players who would most benefit from this content can benefit most without being overwhelmed.
That said, thanks for helping us bring new players to our table and looking forward to seeing more!
I see many new players interested in sorcerers, despite their being warned spellcasters are a bit more tricky to play. Maybe do a (fire?) sorcerer build next?
Outstanding video guys!
Thanks!
love this video. just made my first character last month, and she is a half orc fighter champion. I just hit level 5! checking out more from you guys.
I'm slowly getting into dnd, and this video is great.
This video is super beginner friendly. I'm a fan. Keep up the amazing work Monty and Kelly!
This is such a beginner friendly video i love it. I started late last year and this type of video would have saved a lot of work lol
Great video! The explanations for choices made is great for newcomers to character creation. I'm experienced as a player and a DM, and I LOVE the Champion Fighter for being mechanically simple yet still fun and functional. If I'm playing in a party with 4 or more players, I like picking the Champion to not slow down combat but to still be helpful. That said, I do think the Champion subclass could benefit from small, simple homebrew buffs to improve combat output and noncombat versatility. For example, 2x Proficiency to 1 attack per round (or short rest), and being able to use STR or CON for Intimidation rolls.
Great content! Love the shirt, Kelly!
Great video like always. I like the angle of this being a beginner's guide.
Also both of your beards are looking fantastic.
While I jumped around, loved the video. Will be a great introduction for one of the most diverse subclass choices.
I would add one thing that is implied not not specifically mentioned: Since Kelly is using light armor, he gets the full DEX modifier bonus to his AC, making it 15 when he brings DEX to 18.
No longer new to dnd 5e but I still love me an unusual champion.
Would love to see a follow up on this exploring some of the fun stuff you can do with champion fighter.
I understand why Champion gets recommended to new players since it does have very few decisions to make, but the bonuses it gets are also extremely small compared to other fighters.
Both of these builds could probably put out better numbers by picking a different fighter subclass, while keeping things simple for a new player by not even using all the features of that subclass (until the player is ready to use them). E.g. picking Battle Master and only using Precision Attack to turn misses into hits; not using any other features from Battle Master.
I think you might be misinterpreting the point of this video...
It is not that the bonuses are particular small(getting lucky with 3-4 crits due to action surge can really turn a fight around), but they dont provide a lot of flexibility or utility.
They hit stuff and they are good at it. You dont run out of special resources or have to think about using special abilities in certain situations.
A strong point of the Champion(aside from how easy it is to use), is the impact crits can have on multiclassing with Barbarians, Paladins and Rogues.
Magic weapons which add a die to the attack(like +2d6 fire damage) will also benefit from a higher crit rate.
There is also something to be said about weapon Feats like Crusher or Piercer.
Crits also ignore attack modifiers(they always hit, unless an effect says otherwise), so using Sharpshooter/Greatweapon Master is made a lot easier.
A smaller benefit(at level 7) is that you can add half your proficiency to Strength, Dex or Con checks, if it is not using proficiency. That includes Initiative checks. Getting into a good position can be vital for a Fighter.
All in all, the Champion is reliable and easy to use. They scale well with items and have easy synergies with certain multiclassing options, if the player decides to go that route.
@@fendelphi "It is not that the bonuses are particular small(getting lucky with 3-4 crits due to action surge can really turn a fight around)"
I really don't expect that to happen, at least not on the builds presented in this video, for two reasons.
First, crits on mono-classed level 5 fighters just don't hit that hard so don't impact the fight that much.
In Monty's build for example, at level 5, crits deal about 40% more damage than non-crits. On someone using GWM or Sharpshooter, Crits would be doing about 25% more than non-crits. Missing vs not missing is just a much bigger damage difference (when you miss, you deal 100% less damage than when you hit).
Second, Champions just don't crit that much more often than other fighters at this level.
Let's say you make 20 weapon attacks in between short rests. (For these level 5 characters who don't have bonus action attacks, I could see that being as many as 4 short combats, or 2 long combats). Over the course of these 20 attacks you can expect to roll an average of one 20 (which would be a crit for any fighter subclass) and one 19 (which is a crit only for the Champion).
So basically, on the builds presented in the video, Champion is getting about one additional crit compared to what a non-champion would get every short rest, and with the weapons they are using, this adds a single d8 per short rest.
"A strong point of the Champion(aside from how easy it is to use), is the impact crits can have on multiclassing with Barbarians, Paladins and Rogues."
"Magic weapons which add a die to the attack(like +2d6 fire damage) will also benefit from a higher crit rate."
"There is also something to be said about weapon Feats like Crusher or Piercer."
I'm aware of these, but I wouldn't recommend that a beginner who is playing level 1-5 start thinking about any of that.
But yes, I've run the math on several Champion builds--obviously an advanced player, who jumps through several hoops to make sure they're attacking with lots of dice, attacking with advantage, carefully picking feats out of various sourcebooks, etc will get several times get more out of the Champion than a beginner player who doesn't multiclass or know what feats to pair with a champion build.
There are some high level Champion builds I consider...not bad once they get to higher levels; maybe not the best high level fighter build in the game but...not bad. But every one of these builds struggle from level 1-10. They're feat hungry, they're multiclass hungry.
If you're playing a level 15 one-shot, then sure, Champion 12, Barb 2, Dao Geenie Warlock 1, with Slasher, Crusher, GWM, 20 strength, who waits for a crit to apply the Dao bludgeoning damage to get both the Slasher and Crusher crit debuff...that build is going to be fine. I don't know that it's necessarily the best level 15 fighter build out there, but it's...not bad.
But that's...not a beginner build. I would never recommend that build to a player who is starting a campaign from level 1.
"Crits also ignore attack modifiers(they always hit, unless an effect says otherwise), so using Sharpshooter/Greatweapon Master is made a lot easier."
Yeah, I know about this rule too, but TBH This is basically never relevant unless your DM is throwing badly tuned homebrew monsters at you.
Like...at level 5 with 4 str and no magic weapon, you have a +7 to hit. And then you take -5 with GWM so +2 to hit. When you roll a 19, it's a 21 to hit. You would only miss against 22 or higher AC. In the monster manual all the monsters with 22 AC are Challenge Rating 21-24. If your DM is sending an Ancient Black Dragon against your level 5 party...something has gone wrong. (And there's only one monster with more than 22 AC in the monster manual, and if your DM sends a level 5 party against a Tarrasque, yeah that's even more messed up).
But even if your DM does send the level 5 party against ancient black dragon and you have great weapon master, and you are a Champion, you...should just attack without taking the -5 to hit, so that you hit way more often. If you don't take -5 to hit, then you hit on a 15 or higher. We're talking a 30% chance to hit vs a 10% chance to hit if you rely on crits to turn misses into hits. It's just better damage (on average) to not use GWM if the enemy AC is that high.
The hypothetical of crits turning misses into hits just doesn't really come up for player characters against monster manual enemies. Only really comes up if an inexperienced DM homebrews something stupid like a 40 AC monster.
@@KaitlynBurnellMath Crits do hit hard at level 5, when most of your enemies are still on relative low health values. Crits are potentially powerful enough to 1-shot most "minion" type enemies and a string of attacks(4 with Action Surge) where you get lucky with 1-2 crits can often end a big baddie at that level.
Precision Strike is limited to 4 uses between short rests(at level 5). Assuming you are using it on every potential miss, this means that unless your DM is very lenient with short rests, you will probably spend your Superiority Dice on the first encounter and will have to fight the next encounter without any.
Not only that, but you will still have rolls that will be too low for your Superiority dice to help out. Let us say that your attack roll + modifiers get you to 15. The enemy has an AC of 18(you do not know that though). You decide that this is not enough to hit, and roll. The Superiority Dice can provide you an extra 1-8. If you are unlucky, you roll a 1 or 2, which means the attack still miss. Another example: Your attack + modifiers is 15. You think it wont be enough to hit and you add a superiority dice. You get 4, and hit. But it turns out that the creature only had an AC of 15, so you never needed to use it. Those decisions are difficult to make for new players, and even experienced ones will waste dice from time to time.
Champions crit twice as much as a regular fighter, at level 3. Without advantage, they have a 10% crit chance. With advantage, it is 19%. Regular fighters have a 5% crit chance, and 10% crit chance with Advantage. That is for each attack. And you are attacking twice per turn. That means that a Champion with advantage and attacking twice in a round, has a 34% chance of one of the attacks to be a crit. A regular level 5 fighter will only reach 19% with Advantage. And these numbers increases, if you use Elven Accuracy(you get 3 dice during advantage, instead of 2). This will be important, if other factors that increases damage during crits are added later(either weapons, feats or multiclassing).
And Crits are very satisfactory to do, especially with a good DM that narrates the action. A Fireball might be more impactful, but you can only cast so many and after that, you are kind of done. Every time a crit happens, the entire table enjoys the show.
Your estimate of number of attacks between rests seems low. A fighter gets 2 attacks per round at level 5(+2 when doing action surge). That means 20 attacks are only 9 rounds of combat between short rests. And that is without counting Opportunity attacks. Most combat encounters at that level are at around 4-7 rounds, and longer if there is a big nasty with minions. Of course, it also depends on the party size, but that is usually how it goes in my campaigns.
And then we have the growth spurt at level 6, where you get a Feat. Either Greatweapon Master(gets to attack with a Bonus action if you Crit or kill an enemy), Polearm Master(can use the bonus action to make an attack) or Crossbow Expert(attack with a bonus action). A regular fighter will not get much extra value here than the attack itself(it is another opportunity to use their special resource), but for the Champion, it is an extra chance for a crit.
Point is, that completely changes the number of attacks per encounter(you could potentially get 20 attacks off during a single encounter). Meanwhile, the Battlemaster will still only have 4 Superiority dice per short rest.
Also, just because the probability to crit is 2 for every 20 attacks, does not mean that it cant happen more often(or less). You might have encounters where you have 0 crits, and you might get 5. And for the times where you get several crits in a row, you feel like, well, a Champion. Especially if one of them is enhanced by a Sneak Attack or Smite from multiclassing later on.
When your new player completely eviscerate a Minotaur with their Action surge and gets lucky with several crits, the entire table will remember this event for several sessions.
By the time that a new player has reached level 5, they have already looked through their character options a few times and have probably talked a lot with the DM and other players about which feats to pick at level 4(and later at level 6). If that is not the case, then the DM and the rest of the table is terrible at guiding new players.
And while they might not "think" about which magic items they are going to get(up to the DM), the fact remains that if they do get a weapon with bonus die damage(like Flametongue), a Champion will benefit more. They will feel even more badass when they crit and see all the extra dice they generate.
Similarly, by the time they have reached level 5, they might be wondering what it would be like to play one of the other classes, so Multiclassing might be an option for them later on. It does not HAVE to be immediately, but the point is, that they have a valid option to do so, BECAUSE they picked Champion. So if they decide that they got tired of the Champion at level 6, they can pick Rogue, Paladin or Barbarian at level 7(plus a bunch of more advanced options). Or the table might suggest that they wait with multiclassing after level 11, so they get more out of their extra attack feature.
It would be much more complicated to find an easy multiclass for Battlemaster, because you no longer get more or better Superiority Dice once you switch, and it is a bit more complicated to find other classes that will benefit from using them(they are definately there, but will take much more know-how and are more situational as it is a limited resource).
It is possible that your Fighter, at level 5, only has 15(or lower) in their primary offensive Attribute(especially if you rolled poorly). Or you might have gone for a higher Constitution score, because you are the Tank of the party, and instead bank on the extra crit chance to help hitting high AC enemies. Similarly, Bane can be very common in your adventures, depending on the setting(it is a great spell for the DM to use, as it impacts the party without directly killing anyone, so noone feels like they are being targeted by the DM). An enemy might be affected by Haste, Shield or Shield of Faith, especially if the DM feel that GWM or Sharpshooter is used to often.
Nothing stops the DM from sending a Cleric or Paladin type enemy with Plate armor, shield and Shield of Faith up against your party. You might have messed with the guards, or they might be secretly corrupt. You might be in an arena match against the reigning champion. It will be a unique challenge to deal with, because it's AC will be high, and you will have to rely more on spells, or find an alternative way to solve the encounter.
It might not be as relevant at level 5(although it does happen), but around level 8 you will feel the impact a lot more. And that is part of the Champion's skillset. They can offset a large amount of modifiers to AC and Attack due to bypassing it with a crit. Just because a specific scenario wont happen very often, does not mean it will never happen(especially if you have a good DM).
Even if you do not use the +10 damage modifier of GWM, you still get to benefit from the "use bonus action to attack" when you crit. So a crit, outside of dealing more damage, will also generate an extra attack(which in turn can also crit). And a good way of dealing with high AC enemies is making every hit count.
@fendelphi "Crits do hit hard at level 5"
Not from the builds presented in the video
"Crits are potentially powerful enough to 1-shot most "minion" type enemies"
Crits from the builds presented in the video never average more than 15 damage (compared to 10.5 average on a non-crit). Now, 15 can one-shot a goblin or a skeleton, but as a DM by level 5 I'm usually not using many of those anymore, even as minions (or if I am, I'm using like 20 of them).
"and a string of attacks(4 with Action Surge) where you get lucky with 1-2 crits can often end a big baddie at that level."
No, from specifically these two builds 2 crits aren't enough. CR5 enemies are mostly in the range of 85-110 HP. Two crits deal 30 damage, if the other two attacks hit, you're at 51 damage (compared to 42 damage if all the attacks hit but don't crit). If even one of the other attacks misses, that's actually has a bigger impact than critting twice.
"Precision Strike [...] The enemy has an AC of 18(you do not know that though)."
If you're worried about not knowing enemy ACs for precision attack, and don't want the new player guessing ACs, you can just have them focus on any maneuver that adds a d8 like Tripping Attack. They'll still deal more damage than a champion between short rests.
Remember, as I calculated, I would expect the net damage from a champion between short rests to be a single d8. If you tell the new player to focus on any one maneuver that adds a d8 to damage (tripping attack, goading attack, etc), you get a total of 4d8 from the battlemaster.
Still substantially more damage (before we even look into the bonus effects on the maneuvers, just the d8).
It's very easy to out-damage a badly built champion with a different fighter subclass. You can do it any number of ways. Doesn't need to be precision attack in particular. The numbers on champion are just unusually low.
"And Crits are very satisfactory to do, especially with a good DM that narrates the action. A Fireball might be more impactful, but you can only cast so many and after that, you are kind of done. Every time a crit happens, the entire table enjoys the show."
Sure, I can agree with "crits are satisfying for some players". I think it varies based on the player, though.
"Most combat encounters at that level are at around 4-7 rounds, and longer if there is a big nasty with minions."
I typically estimate around 3 rounds of combat for these kinds of calculations. But yeah, it can be higher if the DM uses encounters deep into the deadly range. But it needs to be pretty deep into the deadly range to last 7 rounds of combat--I've seen plenty of combats that were over in 2 turns, including when I've thrown a CR10 monster against a level 4 party. Not an optimised party either, a bunch of those players it was their first time playing D&D; no variant humans in that group, no great weapon masters or crossbow experts or polearm masters.
And the flip side of these kind of high difficulty 4-7 round fights is that you're usually not doing four of them sequentially without a short rest. At a typical table you might do like...two and then short rest.
(Two fights of 4-7 rounds is 11 rounds of combat, so still pretty close to the estimated 9 rounds of combat per short rest, not going to significantly change the calculation. Also, if you spend any rounds under a status effect or out of range to hit enemies, you might not be making attack actions every round anyway).
"And then we have the growth spurt at level 6, where you get a Feat. Either Greatweapon Master(gets to attack with a Bonus action if you Crit or kill an enemy), Polearm Master(can use the bonus action to make an attack) or Crossbow Expert(attack with a bonus action). A regular fighter will not get much extra value here than the attack itself(it is another opportunity to use their special resource), but for the Champion, it is an extra chance for a crit."
Sure, if you are attacking 3 times per round instead of 2, instead of one extra crit you will get betwen one and two extra crits. But...these crits also deal less damage cause you're using smaller dice now--you're using d6s if you switch to a hand crossbow. For Monty's dueling build you'd switch to a spear or quarterstaff, which means switching from a d8 to a d6, and d4 on bonus action attacks.
So instead of what they had before, a single added d8 per short rest dealing 4.5 extra damage per short rest, they might have 1.5 d6s dealing 5.25 damage per short rest, or one d6 and half of a d4, dealing 4.75 damage per short rest. So...not exactly skyrocketing the crit damage.
Also, if we're looking forward to higher levels, we should also look back at earlier levels to levels 3-4, since this is presented as a level 1-5 build. At level 3-4 these builds have one attack per round, and only get one extra attack from an action surge, so...during level 3-4 they are getting less than one additional crit per short rest (0.5 crits per short rest, 2.25 damage per short rest).
"Also, just because the probability to crit is 2 for every 20 attacks, does not mean that it cant happen more often(or less). You might have encounters where you have 0 crits, and you might get 5. And for the times where you get several crits in a row, you feel like, well, a Champion."
In terms of how enjoyable it is, that depends on player personality. I could easily see someone get frustrated that they went through a whole encounter or a whole session without getting a crit if that's the only thing their subclass does.
But in terms of power level, unreliability is definitely a negative, not a positive.
The party wants to avoid player deaths, wants to avoid TPKs, wants to keep their party together over a full campaign. This means more reliable stuff is considered better than less reliable stuff. E.g. wall of force trapping an enemy is considered better than hold monster--even if hold monster is more potent when it actually succeeds.
The fact that the champion is unreliable, can go through a combat with no crits, is a negative in terms of power level. A high variance player character is weaker than their damage average suggests.
The reverse is true as a DM. As a DM I would be very cautious about using enemies with 19-20 crit ranges against the players. As a DM, I don't want to cause a TPK either, so I would have to treat enemies with 19-20 crit ranges as potentially very dangerous, even if most of the time the players face these enemies, the players win before the enemies land a single crit.
Variance doesn't always make things weaker--it depends on the context. As a DM you treat high variance stuff as more dangerous. But as a player, high variance stuff should be treated as a little weaker than what it does on average.
"And while they might not "think" about which magic items they are going to get(up to the DM), the fact remains that if they do get a weapon with bonus die damage(like Flametongue), a Champion will benefit more."
Champion does get more out of Flametongue than some fighter subclasses, sure. (Accuracy boosters also work well with flametongue)
That said...I don't actually think Champion gets enough out of flametongue alone to push it into "good fighter subclass" range. I've thought about what a static damage level 3 fighter ability would need to look decent, and I've concluded maybe something like "once per round you can add a d6 to your damage." A bunch of rangers get this at level 3 (Hunter Ranger gets a d8. Swarmkeeper gets a d6. Fey Wanderer Ranger gets a d4, sometimes twice). No fighters get something like this, outside of UA (Brute) but it sounds balanced enough.
OK, so the expectation I have for a static no-resource ability is around 3.5 damage per round. How much damage are we getting out of flametongue critting on a 19? Two attacks with a flametongue. Using monty's build with a d8 weapon gives us... 1.15 without advantage. 2.13 with advantage. Still way less than 3.5.
From my calculations I think the break-even point is if the DM gives the champion an Antimatter Rifle (6d8 weapon from the DMG where it discusses futuristic combat). Still less than 3.5 damage if you don't have advantage (2.7) quite a bit of damage if you do have advantage (5.0). If you have advantage about half the time 2.7 and 5 average out to 3.85. Pretty close to that 3.5 target.
So...flametongue helps, but...it actually doesn't add enough dice. Antimatter rifle adds enough dice, but most DMs don't hand those out.
"It would be much more complicated to find an easy multiclass for Battlemaster"
Battlemaster tends to mutliclass just fine? I've probably seen more Battlemaster dips on optimisation forums than any other fighter subclass. (Although maybe Echo Knight dips will overtake Battlemaster dips soon).
"Nothing stops the DM from sending a Cleric or Paladin type enemy with Plate armor, shield and Shield of Faith up against your party."
Again, if you are actually level 5 and up against a 22 AC enemy, you should just attack without taking the -5 to hit from GWM; it's more damage because you hit way more often. No one is forcing you to take the -5 to hit.
Alternatively, since the DM is presumably intending this enemy to be dealt with by spells or other methods rather than attacks, you should probably...not be attacking? Grappling or attempting to disarm the target immediately jumps to mind, as those are contested with athletics/acrobatics checks and thus ignore AC.
Crits turning misses into hits only really comes up if you make a tactical error. (Instead of grappling, instead of attacking normally, you take the -5 accuracy penalty. This is still not the play you should make, but you are punished slightly less for it if you're a champion).
Great video, guys! I'd love to see your take on the Celestial Warlock and/or Nature Domain Cleric in the future. They're two of my personal favorites, and I'd love to see what you guys come up with for them.
Awesome beginner-friendly content. Really appreciate it dudes.
Just played a dwarf fighter champion in a one shot and it was so much fun!
Kelly and Monty, nice return to the basics. While crafting epic characters or seeking the right balance for an encounter, the foundational aspects of the game are refreshing to revisit.
With all the options now available in DnD 5e I massively appreciate this return to the PHB and a classic Champion Fighter Elf and Dwarf.
And respecting the fact that feats are an optional rule... cherry on top!
Loving the content as always, and looking forward to my lovely Drakkenheim goodies arriving soon!
More like this please - preferably for each class. This is so accessible for new players, I would have no problems sharing this with a potential new player as an introduction of what to expect and the game mechanics involved.
I love both character concepts!
Hey thanks for the video guys. I've been looking for a guide to show my friends that want to play but don't know anything about DnD.
I like where you're going with your concept monty, I always have a hard time though deciding between Hill dwarf and mountain dwarf just because I do enjoy that little itty bitty tiny bit of extra hit points I get every level up. However it's very difficult to say no to a plus two going to both your main stats!
More of this! Great for new players!
Just a note on your ASI discussion at lvl 4. It would help to mention when updating your stats the new ability score modifier changes your saving throws and skill bonuses as well as your hit and damage modifiers. Otherwise an amazing guide! Good work.
There is also the optional rule of using strength modifier instead of charisma for intimidation
No there isn't. There is room for a DM to declare that is the check that they want in certain circumstances. But it is not player-facing and I'd certainly not call it an optional rule; it is, at most, an optional DM tool.
Makes too much sense. It's worth it because of the negative consequences that may happen with intimidation rather than outright fooling someone with charisma.
Even if it isn't neccesarily an official rule, I like the idea of your STR and muscles being part of the Intimidation factor. Lion In The Room effect, y'all. It'd be like if a ripped, Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson was telling you he'd rip out your lerinx with his teeth if you don't do as he asks in a timely manor
Dwayne Johnson is famously charismatic though, so it will still go well for him. Make a Charisma:Intimidation check.
@@iselreads2908 But most characters in DnD are at least partially used to see strong people around, not to mention beast and monsters. If a character does not know how to flex those muscles in an intimidating way(charisma), they are not intimidating. An NPC might even take pity on them for the attempt.
I love these vids, gives me so many ideas
I was hoping one of the things you covered was increasing the constitution bonus and how that changes the hp. Had a couple players make bad choices because they didn't realize what that did. Great video
Great video explaining things. Even for the experienced player, the level of detail would be perfect
Great video, beginner content is super important. Might I suggest a series on how to get started DMing
My friends and I just started playing 5e. We rolled for what character Race/Class we would take. I ended up with a Half-Elf Fighter.
I went with a build almost exactly like Kelly's (Legolas), but decided to go Battle Master instead of Champion.
Funnily enough, our Mountain Dwarf Wizard did more melee damage than I did our first session... but that's the way it goes... Lol.
We also have a Gnome Barbarian and a Half-Orc Cleric. So rolling for Race/Class certainly made things interesting.
Love the videos guys, we've learned a lot. Thank you!
Thanks for so many great videos. I would love a video for DM's about how to play a warlock's patron.
I'm about to hop into a campaign with a character that has taken two levels of barbarian for reckless attack, three levels of champion fighter for crits on 20s and 19s, and great weapon expert! I'm not sure how it's gonna work out because I haven't been able to find any discourse on this specific build, but four times the criticals and +10 to damage rolls should be fun!
That's a 19% crit chance. So you will definitely hit around 1 in 5 attacks.
More, please and thank you.
Thank you dudes!
Love the videos.
I recently started playing and I rolled everything. I ended up with a halfing pact warlock. it's been pretty exciting honestly.
Someday I’ll hopefully get to actually play a game with people so I appreciate this basic guide for Champion.
Love the vids!
Are you planning to do more of these Beginner character creation guides? I'd be curious to see what you would do for a beginner caster.
Eldritch knight lol
Anything but a sorcerer.
Probably a wizard, maybe a cleric
@@benjaminholcomb9478 IIRC, when they went through the best classes for a new player, I think cleric ranked slightly higher than wizard for a "beginner spellcaster." The benefit of cleric is that you have complete access to the entire spell list, rather than having to find/buy spells you want.
@@chrisvossler8795 yeah, I seem to remember that similarly too.
The best thing about eldritch knights is if all else fails you're a fighter, hit 'em lol.
Sorcerers are complex, druids have the whole wildshape thing, and warlocks have a lot of important bits and pieces you have to decide. Their just not as straightforward.
@@benjaminholcomb9478 Lol. Of course, the fact that an Eldritch Knight is also a fighter potentially makes it even more complex to figure out spells that work with the melee combat, on top of being locked in with those spell choices.
@@chrisvossler8795 sssshhhh. Don't ruin this for me.
Also, yeah no, you right tho. Lol
I thought you were going to put in Resilient (Dex) as the feat for Kelly's character as I thought you were going for a PHB only build. But, it was fun to see the dudes go through some more entry level content I do like the fact you guys made two separate characters in this video as it made it obvious that you could do anything. I would love to see you guys make a Wizard video as it would be interesting to see your guys opinion on the spellbook overlap question :)
I'm about to start a 5e campaign for the first time (I've played a fair amount of 3.5), and my character is going to be Inigo Montoya from from The Princess Bride. Going with Champion Fighter because it feels most like that character. Thanks for the building tips!!!! Our first session is in 2 days!!!
I never would have imagined Legolas as a champion fighter but...tbh it fits better than ranger
I like this, as it is more specifically set up for new players and it is with one of the weaker subclasses (arguably weakest fighter). I wouldn't recommend champion for a long campaign though as it gets so outshone and boring once you know what you are doing. Also did you chose not to mention that Tasha allows you to change fighting style?
Yeah, they did. As a DM to new players, I think you need to stick to the basics until something comes along that could applicable. Like if he chose archery and the player finds his character in melee more often and wants to change his fighting style or get a new one. That's when I would bring up those rules.
@@ericpeterson8732 Yeah I can understand that. However they did bring up Tasha for racial traits, although that is less complicated.
purple dragon knight says hello
@@DaVe2022 That is where the arguably comes from 😉. I like it though as normally all the focus is on the stronger subclasses.
It does become kinda boring, which multiclassing is not a bad option for the Champion if the player is interested on adding more flavor to the character.
My first ever character in fifth edition was remarkably close to what Monty made here, to the point where only Dexterity and Intelligence were switched around, and three out of four skills were the same. I remember my dwarf being the most effective, competent and valuable part of the party, not because the Champion is so good, but because I was the only one who knew what I was doing! Again, not because I was such a great player at that time, but because the Fighter was so simple and straightforward to play.
My next characters were more complex, with more options and moving parts, but I'm so happy that my Mountain Dwarf Fighter was where the journey began.
My fighter is a champion and I love it so much! 😀 We are at level 6 now in the campaign. Easy to play, easy to remember. It's a great way to learn how to play. 😀
I like half-orc champion with orcish fury for champion myself... i did this and multi classed with berserker barb and gwm + sentinel for lots of crits and damage..
Totem Barb please ♥️.
Im playing one now and having a HELL OF FUN, as well as my last War Domain Cleric.
My champion fighter is a Free Knight known as Shrike Schild Vorhut. Part of a society of ex-warriors, soldiers, even knights, and paladins that see the value in others to make a home for themselves and take care of each other no matter what race or faction you are. Kingdoms don't mess with them because of the very diverse and organized structure. See background for more. All my stats were rolled. Because my numbers rolled I was more flexible in what I wanted, your numbers will make or break what you want to do with your Character. I love the Sword, Board, and Bow. An MBT Style character. I listed all other items to look for while leveling up from 1 to 20. The main items to keep attuned to are the Ring and Cloak of Protection. The third is open situational environments that you find yourself in. I recommend Boost of Speed for open ground, then switch to Winged Boots for mountain and cliff terrain. I go with half-plate armor with the Medium Armor Master Feat, to keep that good balance between Defense and Stealth with high mobility. High Damage outright isn't my main goal. High-grade Equipment is used to cover that part and yes it's expensive but well worth it in the end. If the party can chip in to get the fighter well equipped. The fighter can focus on other aspects. Here my Champion Warrior link: ddb.ac/characters/75093894/UdeWXV
Aww, that's so cute how you are making 2 of the 3 hunters
As a long time DM, a champion fighter is a great extra DM PC to have on hand when the party lacks a forth player or if you want to add a character that can come along for a quick buff to the party balance.
Sorry for the off-topic. I wonder if you gentlemen would consider making a video about the Dungeons and Dragons Board Game series? Of course the level of complexity is nothing compared to "real" D&D, but there is an active community of people who modify these board games, design characters, etc. Thanks for reading.
The elven archer might well have also taken the feat 'Resiliant' and put it on Dexterity. That would round the dex to 18, and very importantly give them proficiency with dexterity saving throws, and EXTREMELY useful upgrade.
Monty, I'm starting my Drakkenheim campaign soon and one of my players is a follower of the fallen fire who often quotes scripture. I've already reviewed all the times that Lucrecia has spoken to Drakkenforce, but I would appreciate it if you were to provide a few more good quotes from the testament of the fallen fire if you have notes on it.
Honestly I've never used the Champion except as a 3-4 level dip in some rogue builds. But you Gentlemen almost make me want to play a Champion-centric character. Almost..... 😏
This video is as advertised, great for beginning players! 👍
Champion fighter is one of the weakest subclass in the whole game. Its not worth it.
@@Omnifarious42 Hence the reason I said 'Almost'
But like they said it's a class made for new players
I remember when this got rated D tier in the subclass rankings and I was really disappointed, i know it's a very basic subclass but fighters are so feat-customisable that its always fun to play even a simple subclass like this and I thought it was a bit unfairly treated, really happy this is getting featured now!
D is fine imho as it is based in comparison to the other fighters. And it is the weakest fighter.
Hear hear! Being able to get crits in combat a lot more than everyone else is awesome. My table uses an alternate crit rule as well making them even more busted.
It goes down like this. When you crit, you roll the damage as if you hadn't gotten a crit...then you add the weapons max damage to the total.
Say you're using a dagger and crit, you roll the damage, add the modifier, the add +4 to the damage total since that's the highest the weapon die can roll.
This method ensures that you can always deal decent damage when you crit, even if you actually rolled a 1.
@@iselreads2908 Kind of undermining your Hear Hear! There with that argument. Your table decided critical hits needed to be stronger, which is the one thing Champions are slightly decent in (+5%). Meaning normally Critical Hits are weak/meh. So for a base rules ranking the Champion does belong low. Especially as a standalone class.
@@Hyde_Hill Not sure why you feel the need to put down the champion so much, the Dungeon Dudes themselves in their subclass rankings rated it low because it was "boring", not weak. Considering how many attacks a fighter makes, and how many feats they get, there are some insane builds that double down on that crit damage (Great Weapon Master, Crusher/Piercer/Slasher, Half orc racial trait, etc). Two levels in paladin gets you Divine Smite for when you crit. And also....... some people just love critical hits. I personally loved playing the Champion and thought it was on par if not better with the Battlemaster in terms of power level, the superiority die gave more versatility but the damage was unmatched from the Champion.
You're of course totally entitled to your opinion that its a weak subclass, just don't put down other people's experience of it in the process.
I am loving my new Bearkind Champion. He is a gladiator and loves a good fight he doesn't talk often and has his Bard be his backer. You don't need to be a caster to have a good time.
I have always liked the Champion fighter. And personally I use it the most in multiclass dips for the extra crit range. That and getting to add half your proficiency sounds terrible until you run into one of the many Str check to escape monster. Then it improves your odds a lot. I like using sword and board for the Champion and getting defense and later dueling, or the other way around.
A +1 on an ability score isn't wasted if it makes a 16 a 17, it just means you have to wait to the next ability score increase. The next +1 will make it an 18, and it's pretty easy to get a +1 with a feat, too.
Thanks
Thanks.
while it was definitely just to show that you could pick up a different skill, if you were taking the sailor background you could always have just taken survival off the fighter list. it probably would have better served to illustrate the point by picking a skill you normally couldn't like Arcana (granted that'd probably better serve an eldritch knight) or stealth (in the case of folks running dex fighters).
Listen to the Rocky movie soundtrack in a second tab while watching this for best effects.
Action Surge is like Divine Smite, but you can use it less often, but in more ways. It's such a Swiss Army Knife ability. The Wizard landed a Hold Person/Monster and melee fighters get free crits? ACTION SURGE LET'S GO! Need to cover a TON of ground to save someone? Double-dash.
Boy you gotta respect the hustle of selling Champion Fighter this well
:D Champion fighter and Kelly builds a Ranger, can't ask for a better tutorial though well done.
Good Video
i really WISH you would make a video about: Beginner Character Builds; How to play a ABJURATION WIZARD in D&D 5E @Dungeon Dudes
I have played two champion fighters and been in a game with 6 battlemasters. In my experience, the Champion just continues to pull it out. I haven't played with a successful Battlemaster yet. They look good, but they just seem to fall short. To paraphrase Tyson, everyone has a plan until they roll a d20.