The info in this video really stacked up, maybe it’s a bit of a reach but this really handles the issue at hand. The best video to get a grip on it all, bar none.
Man that was funny. I’m glad Stack is finally getting acknowledged for having something to do with it. I got a Spire XL, but the front end is super low. Recently road something with a high stack and it felt so good, up and down. You can get a spacer that goes on the the fork crown, but most bikes already have their steer tube cut.
@@jamesfynnhere6983 Damn. I've thought about the spire XXL knowing I'd need to raise the bars. I run 70mm on my other bike. If 85 isn't enough on the spire, maybe it's not for me at 6'5".. How tall are you?
16:26 To all the people wondering what the gold stem at the end of the video is and why I made it, this is the RR (Raised Reversed) stem. It is both Raised up and Reversed in offset so that your hands are ultimately behind the steering axis instead of in front as is traditional. The Raised height helps improve the riders stance with a better arm angle to the bars for confidence, proper bend in the elbows for control, and more rider weight supported by their legs instead of hands. It also gives a longer lever between their hands and feet to give them more leverage for maneuvering the bike. These help the rider to feel more comfortable and confident, and makes the bike more maneuverable. The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain. I am consistently significantly faster riding on a bike with the RR stem relative to traditional 50mm - 35mm stems. I have gotten better race results, such as when I won 🥇 the Southridge USA DH Expert Men 19-29 race with a time 3 seconds faster than 3rd place in Pro Men, and I can now ride more technical terrain and bigger jumps than I ever could before using the RR stem. The RR stem has been in development for over 3 years testing all kinds of different heights and offsets on various bikes and terrain, always benchmarking against the traditional 50mm - 35mm stem. I tested anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem you see here, and 70mm offset forward all the way to 70mm offset Reversed. The RR stem that I now sell on the Be More Bikes website: bemorebikes.com is the culmination of all of that testing to find the best Enduro mtb stem geometry with a -15mm Reversed offset. If you have any questions please leave a reply, or check out my Tech and FAQ’s page here: bemorebikes.com/tech-and-faqs.html I love having discussions. 🙂
@@TurboWolf5000 Sizing up from the frame size that you already feel fits you best with a traditional stem to a larger frame is not necessary to use the RR stem. The RR stems Raised height pairs perfectly with the closer hand position from the Reversed offset so that you don’t need to upsize your bike. Typically to have a good angle of your arms to the bars and enough bend at the elbows for moving around in good form, you’re hinged forward at the hips such that your back is fairly horizontal. With the more upright position of the RR stem, you don’t need to account for as much horizontal torso length in the cockpit. Also, the total distance between your feet and hands increases for a roomier feel. I’m 5’8” and I’ve tested the RR stem on bikes with reaches from 405mm to 500mm, and I am always faster and in more control with an RR stem. I find about 460mm - 470mm is a good sweet spot for me. I currently ride a Trek Slash 29 in size M/L which is the same size that would otherwise be recommended for my height with a traditional stem. All of my customers that I have talked to have been very happy doing a direct swap of their existing traditional stem to the RR stem on whatever bike they were already using. The vast majority of them were not on particularly long or otherwise extreme geometry frames for their heights. You can certainly use the RR stem on a larger frame that otherwise may feel a bit unwieldy with a traditional stem though. Again, I’m 5’8” and I actually owned an XXL YT Capra 29 with a 500mm reach for a while to test if you needed a larger frame to work with the RR stem. That bike was sick because it was super long and stable, but because of the RR stems increased leverage from the Raised height, and the improved steering geometry of the Reversed offset, I actually gained maneuverability so it wasn’t hard to ride on tighter more technical terrain. I was even able to make some turns tighter on the XXL YT Capra 29 with the RR stem than I could with my 2013 size L Evil Uprising 26” with a 437mm reach and 4” shorter wheelbase with a traditional 50mm stem!
What about your time difference from the second place. Why do you mention the 3rd instead? 🤨 And I find your lack of clarification from the beginning, that all these benefits that you mention apply only downhill, disturbing. I can't imagine this stem would help you climb in any way...
@@taz800 I mention 3rd place because I was faster than 3rd place in Pro Men and could have still been on the podium in Pro Men even though I race in Expert Men a step below Pro. In my class of Expert Men I was 7 seconds faster than 2nd place in that race, and that was my best result to date. Before the RR stem, 14th was my best result in Expert Men, and I was quite substantially slower than that same rider who got 3rd in Pro Men the day that I won in Expert Men. While I would say the main benefits of the RR stem are focused on improving descending and cornering performance, climbing is actually quite comfortable with the RR stem. I actually greatly prefer climbing with the RR stem relative to a traditional stem, and many of my customers like the climbing more too. With a traditional low and forward offset stem, when you are climbing something steep and trying to leverage yourself forward when pedaling hard, you can’t really pull back on the bars to keep yourself forward without the front end starting to wander and flop around uncontrollably. This is because with the forward offset of traditional stems, the bars pull closer to you when they turn. To compensate for this, riders tend to ride elbows up and pulling more up on the bars. This can lead to the front wheel lifting during hard pedal strokes. Finding that balance between pulling the front up to stop it from wandering, and pulling the bars back to stop it from lifting is a constant challenge that typically is dealt with by lowering your bars so low that you are basically falling forward onto them with straighter arms to support your body. With the Reversed offset of the RR stem, the bars pull closer to you when they stabilize straight, so the front end doesn’t wander and flop around uncontrollably. Because of this, you can ride with low relaxed and bent elbows and shoulders while pulling back and slightly down so that the front isn’t lifting. You can also combine this with tilting the nose of your seat down some, shifting your butt forward on it a bit, and potentially even shifting the seat forward on its rails some. On more mellow climbs, you have a much more comfortable upright position with an open chest for easy breathing, and minimal weight supported on your hands.
As a taller rider, I feel geometry has been messed up for us for a long time and still is.. Another relationship to you think about is your seat height to the top of your grips. Anything more than 1 1/2 inches of drop to the bar is pretty uncomfortable. We definitely need more stack height on XL and XXL bikes. The only fix is to buy a bike with shorter travel and over fork it. An then high rise Bars to Compensate for the bike industry's lack of experience.
@tjb8841 You're Right ✅️ But I thought of that too 🤔 So I up sizes to a XXL YT Izzo w/ 513mm reach. I'm 6,3 witch puts me at the very bottom of there XXL frame to Compensate for that too.
Couldn't agree more. XXL Stumpy and I still feel like I'm riding an XC bike with the low stack. Even high rise bars doesn't get me there at 6'8". I custom build hardtail mtb frames to fit my size. High stack long reach 63 degree head angle and 450-470mm chain stays. You won't find that geo on the market because there is not enough people to sell to, but everything he said in the video makes sense to me.
I'm 6'4"with very long legs and arms. I'm considering exchanging my 2020 Hightower for the latest megatower due to the 668/670 mm stack height-and I need more travel!
I couldn't agree more with your take. I really hope, thats the way forward. I've tested a few enduros this summer. Most came with low fronts, short stays and long reaches. Your neutral position had to be on the aggressive side (low upper body) to get a good weight distribution. This takes away from your range of motion and also feels less playful. Though short stays adds to the snappy / responsive feel, a relaxed neutral position to me is still the most important attribute of a good setup.
You can combine the two on the right bike. I ride a Rocky Mountain Altitude, it has very high stack, combined with adjustable dropouts for either a long or short chain stay, but the bike as a whole is on the shorter side of the segment with a wheelbase of 1249mm on a size L in the short chainstay setting.
As a tall, 6'5" rider, I'm super happy to see so many complaints of similar experiences with long and low bikes. I'm pretty tired of my neck hurting, and trying roll something steep and feeling like I'm getting pulled over over the bars. I know you can't just scale every dimension of a bike when creating larger sizes, but what are we doing when we get down to 1.2 stack/reach ratios? According to 99spokes, the stack reach ratio of the XXL Spire High setting is 1.21. For Medium, it's 1.35!!! Might as well give them different names because they're totally different bikes. I'm over here hoping for a 30.5" wheel standard, and xxl bikes that are actually shaped like their medium counter parts. Maybe something will appear under my christmas tree.
6'8" rider. In my experience everything should grow on the bike as you get taller. Not just the saddle height. The comments in the video on stack height make perfect sense. This is where the bike industry really doesn't get it. I agree it's time for our own wheel size. Extra tall riders must unite and make demands!!!
Haha ikr!! I haven’t watched the whole video, but when he said “why stacks time has finally come” I instantly thought, is it to sell more bikes????? They’ve done wheels and geometry, even a new hanger standard, they’re running out of ways to tell you your bike is redundant
Couldn't agree more. Running a 2021 Dreadnought in XL as a 6'4'. Long rear end and even with a reach of 506 and stack of almost 640, I still need a 35mm riser bar on it. Same with the Reign E+ and 500 Reach/655 Stack.. Using longer stem and 20mm riser.
14:55 Thats where the BMB Raised Reversed Stem comes across my mind. Id love to see you try out and explain how it works or if it even works as intended. Cheers ride on Edit: I should have watched the whole thing first lul
Totally agree with this pov... those low front ends on modern bikes will eventually wear out the arms, shoulders and backs of their riders... trends in geometry have been largely dictated by fashion which comes from racing people and we all know these are not average riders.... good work I think you are spot on with the observations... very interestied to see part 2...
As great as the topic and the singing is I see that Henry has gone full Canadian and adopted the Canadian Tuxedo. Can confirm that's the best part of the video and I suggest you let that one marinate.
Santa Cruz are doing good things here, especially for taller riders. High stacks, sensible reach and angles, size-specific rear ends. They're also unusual in putting longer stays on their mullet bikes to balance out the quicker handling from the smaller rear wheel, instead of going as short as possible and leaving larger frame sizes feeling like they're trying to kill you.
@@mrvwbug4423 I feel like we don't hear about "all mountain" as a category much though. Many (most?) brands don't list it as a category, just trail and enduro (where all mountain would fall in between).
@@treebeardmtb Stumpjumper Evo was a good seller and still very popular. Already has a high stack compared to many similar sized bikes. 475 reach, 635mm stack, I’m still using 20mm spacer setup all mountain.
Funny you say that. I borrowed a shops pivot shuttle in a medium (I ride a large in most bikes). The stack was higher than both my prior bikes. It actually felt really good to ride. Even a size smaller than I usually ride. I'm 6' tall long legs / arms and a short torso.
Don't forget to watch that the chainstays are at least 445 mm to compensate for that... My Propain Rage feels just right because of that, it is an XL with a few spacers to rise that stack (I'm 6' 2'' with long limbs)
@@g.wilsondh8407 ya I have a short chain stay dirt jumper. But the long chainstays help to an extent especially when I climb. There is a definite sweet spot for each rider.
Good Stuff. Humor, info, and thought. I have played with this notion of high stack for 2 years now. A high fork tube helps but as noted, it bring everything towards you. That can feel good to a point but shortens the cockpit. I then added a taller rise bar and a longer stem in order to have my similar reach yet still having a corrected steerer angle. The results was more comfort on the hands and better stability for me. Downside is you have to get use to not pulling on the bars as much as it will lift the front end easier due to more leverage. Try it out and see what y’all think. Get a high rise bar and a +10-20mm stem and it becomes a quick swap and test.
I've been riding my Spire for the same amount of time (since your review) here on the NS. Mid summer, this year I got tired of teh flop and put on a 1 degree Works Components angle set. Wow what a difference! Its so much better suited for the slower teck, climbing AND steep Techy descents . If I wanted to I could drop to the low setting for whistler laps...but I don't think id bother. Cheap and easy change to a great bike.
I like slacker bikes in high speed for obvious reasons but I also like it at slower speeds in steep terrain. I find it’s easier to track stand with the stiffness of steering/flop almost like a steering stabilizer as the bike compresses. Also steeper head angle much more twitchy in balancing in steep terrain and slow steep terrain and ruts. Steeper head angle also only gets steeper as it compresses which makes it harder to balance in slower steeper terrain and super twitchy at high speeds. But makes a bike more fun on average intermediate trails.
Rocky Mountain had this figured out 3 years ago. The Altitude has a nearly 640mm stack on size L and over 650mm in XL, without a crazy steep HTA (74.4 in full slack setting), and without a crazy long reach of just 474 in size L. Obviously it works because Melamed won an EWS title on that bike. This might be why the key question for every enduro field test since 2021 has been "is it better than a Specialized Enduro or Rocky Mountain Altitude". That also shows the dichotomy in stack heights as well as the Spec Enduro is one of the lowest stack heights in the segment and the Altitude is one of the highest (though the new Meta V5 SX took stack height up to 11)
Henry is the greatest gem and replacement of the unwavering vague salt Levy brought for Pinkbike and I won't hear other opinions. Poetry like insults and actual parody songs with interpretive dance. The fact this content is free is lifting my hopes for humanity.
As someone with a longer torso it took me a while to realise the importance of a bike with a higher stack. I have a Kona process with a stack of 596mm and it feels so damn low for me even with 38mm riser bars. My newer bikes with slightly longer reach but around 45mm higher stack just feel absolutely spot on.
I rode a transition sentinel back to back with my specialized demo. While I love the sentinel, it felt like my upper body always had to be in such an aggressive position. It was a lot of fun, but it's exhausting to always be in that aggro mode.
I bought a pivot firebird and have to admit, I didn't feel I had a great fit or feel out of the box till I ran the spacers to give higher stack and changed to a 35mm riser bar then it felt and handled better over a wider range of terrain from super gnarly DH lines to flow and steep tech sections. The reach was still long so added a 180mm air spring and the handling got ever better. Kind of counter intuitive but it works better than the standard height lower front end.
Might I ask how tall you are and what size did you get? I demoed the Firebird in 2 sizes over the summer and at 5'10" neither fit great. The size L and its 490mm reach was way too much and it was hard to keep the front end weighted. The size M had 473mm reach which is in my sweet spot, but the stack was too low. I ended up getting a RM Altitude, which has both a perfect reach number for me at 474mm but also has a very high stack height which feels amazing when pointed downhill and is also comfortable while pedaling.
I'm bang on 6" and ride a large. I got an insane deal from a store owner affiliated with our club so went with it. Medium wasn't on the floor so there wasn't a deal to be done. I really like steep techy lines and a short step gives a snappier steering response. Works well for me with a 770 bar. If I'm honest I came off a large norco sight (2021) and there large is closer to a Pivots Medium in reach and fit. The Pivot firebird in a medium would have been easier to get on with out of the box but the flip side is its wicked stable at steep. ;)
Fox need to bring back the talas fork. I had the 36mm 180/140 talas and it was great for this reason. The frame was designed to run 180mm. However, when climbing, you could lock it at 140mm, which had the benefit of a steeper seat tube, a lower effective stack, and a steeper head angle. Perfect for slower more technical sections and climbs. Although it lowers the bb, I never had any pedal strike issues.
Stack is very important for general comfort on your bike. I have Fuel Ex gen 5, IMO that bike has low stack, at least for me. So I put 10mm longer fork and 40mm riser bar instead of 28mm rise bar how it comes. Higher stack makes your shoulders and back more relaxed i.e. pain free.
Been loving high stack for years, just a by-product of riding XL alloy bikes. I guess my bikes are from the future. Love the dance moves. Reeb, Cotic, Banshee
I recently threw a 50mm riser bar on my older 2019 GT Sensor (65.5 deg head angle, 435mm chainstay), essentially creating the same high stack scenario. I can’t believe how much better it feels on the trail….Dak Norton is onto something here
My next bike I'm eyeing is the XXL high tower, which does have steeper head tube angle at 64.8, but I don't know if the chainstay is long enough to make the point of this video. The XXL has a 443 chainstay. The madonna XL (largest size) has 450. Seems like a massive difference.
that's subjective imho. 19-21 megatower is a great Enduro bike if you install a 170 fork can't pretty much get any better got myself an RM Altitude - very happy with the choice
I love the geometry of my Mondraker Level RR 2023 in L. 490mm reach, 652mm stack, 455mm chainstays, 76.5° effective seat angle. I'm 187cm and like a very high front, so I ride with the standard 4 spacers, 40mm stem with 6° rise and 40mm rise 790mm handlebars. At 65°, the head angle is relatively steep compared to other enduro/freeride MTB/E-MTBs, but that's exactly what I like about the bike. Despite the 180mm travel, the geometry is very balanced and the uphill performance is extremely good and the downhill performance is also extremely good at my speed. Bikes with a flatter head angle and shorter chainstays like a Canyon Torque:ON CF or Propain Ekano 2 CF/AL may be more suitable for racers, but I also use the bike for home trails and live in an area where I can't ride 40km/h consistently and also have to drive a lot uphill. That's why I prefer a steeper steering angle that doesn't tilt as much at lower speeds and a high front. And the long chainstays are really helpful uphill and overall I stand much more in the middle of the bike. On bikes with a 63° head angle, 500mm reach and 445mm chainstays, you stand way too far back and the front and rear are very unbalanced. At least that was my feeling during test drives. I immediately felt comfortable on the Mondraker and I can really shoot with the bike, but it is still easy to use on normal, slow trails.
Thanks for the insight: I totally agree with alot of the things said. There are some bikes out there with -in my opinion- way too slack head angles. For exactly that reason of wheel flop in slow speeds. But also there's soooo much to put in account since the whole bike is a summary of so many diffent variables that have to work with all the variables of my body, riding style and the trails I ride. (To sum up: My current bike (a 2018 RM Slayer) works perfectly for me (after many changes and finding THE setup that works for my within the margin that bike offers), my next bike will have nearly similar specs and be relatively steep compared to many bikes out there).
That's a fine development path for Enduro where you don't focus on optimal posture for pedaling. But please leave XC bike low. I can't pedal well unless I lean over. So therefore I lean over regardless of bar height. Then, if the stack is high. I have to absorb the short distance between my shoulder socket and the bar with highly bent elbows. That highly bent elbow across the ride of many hours is extremely tiring. Lots of energy wasted just to compensate for too tall bar. A lower handle bar allow my arms to be more straight given the same lean over posture I require to pedal. That saving me so much energy to spend on my legs rather than my arms.
For real. It’s a bike get out and ride. Im still on a 2016 giant trance still running 2x11 and im perfectly happy. I did make the switch to tubless a couple years ago and that’s pretty tight.
@@Bolie420 I also just think that geometry changes in response to technology. Sure, droppers and 29ers made new shapes possible. But what’s the catalyst now? With so few variables I doubt there’s some magic shape nobody tried for 10+ years. If there is, thats just kind of dumb.
Sales people will do some really crazy mental gymnastics just to sell next generation of bikes. We are past the biggest advancements in MTB. Now it's just refinement. But they expect to sell just as much or more. It's like with PCs 30 years ago. Every month a new CPU, bigger RAM, better graphics. Nowadays there changes year to year are irrelevant. And PC sales is almost zero.
Consider that without levy before, we'd probably all still be on 80mm stems, a change that propelled broader geo changes, leading to the best bikes that have ever existed. It's journalism, asking these questions and finding the answers is the whole point.
fork offset also too. As headtube angle got slacker that made the front wheel more floppy so they shorten the offset. The thing with stack is that when it gets too high it tends to feel like you are teeter tottering over the bars, like when bars are too low and weight is too foward. Really it is a combonation of head angle, stack, fork offset, etc., when one is adjusted the other has to be adjusted too just like with slacker and offset. On my enduro I actually put the spacers above the stem so as to not feel that teeter totter feel. On my trail I just did the same to climb a little better cause the front end was wanting to lift casue it was too tall. A part of all this is also balance, shifting that center of gravity and center of mass around
mtb Geometry is finally emancipating from Road bikes(we have to look more at motocross). We need longer Rear center, higher stacks and HTAs matching the bikes purpose.
Tall head tube, slightly steep and a deep stack height. Sounds familiar, o right, they basically built a mountain bike around dirtbike geometry. You would also be correct about chain stay or swing arm length in the moto world. Long vs. short has positive and negative effects.
The problem with high rise bars is when you roll it forward or backward it changes your grips location and backsweep and also the steering characteristics of the bike so finding the sweet spot on high rise bar. You should run lower rise bar like 25-35 and shortest stem you can find
I use a 60mm ride bar. Problem solved. Feels amazing and upped my confidence significantly. I also no longer get back pain from hunching over on flat rides.
I learned my lesson after spending too much time and money trying to get my bars up high enough to feel comfortable on a brand new bike. Ended up selling it and going on a search for something that had reasonable stack for an xl frame.
Yes! why i chose a RAAW Madonna, not crazy reach, but a nice high stack and longer stays. Also high rise bars - really does depend on the make and model as some are design to be rolled in line (ish) with the head angle (and adjust from there), where as others the rise is designed to be vertical (and then adjust either way from there).
I want to know the ideal head angle. Like fork axle path on different head angles its like high pivot but infront of you, does slacker make your fork feel like a high pivot? You get what I mean (slacker the more the axle path travel). Also the more your front end compress the less your head angle get so your 63 HA will never be 63 after it goes trough the sag.
So funny this video has come out. I’ve looking for a bike with a high stack. I ride a META v4 TR size L. I rode my fathers Rocky Mountain Altitude XL and it feels like so good even tho it’s slightly longer. Hit that right on the nail man lol
@@ostankovalex1176 yeah man my buddy got one. I rode my dads for a couple of hours at some local trails climb up and descend. I really loved the bike and the adjustment you can do is awesome
Yup, the Altitude was ahead of its time with a high stack even in 2021. I have one myself and its an absolute weapon of a bike. Easy to see how Melamed won an EWS title on it. It even tech climbs better than most DW link bikes just because it doesn't bounce over roots and rocks like DWs like to do (Pivot Firebird still wins out going up though, but the Firebird is the best climbing bike I've ever seen).
@@mrvwbug4423 haven't ridden a Firebird, but it was said it's a kind of a stiff bike, so maybe not so plush as Altitude - who knows Been considering a Firebird once, but I'm not a fan of very short chainstays
A huge factor affecting stack is wingspan; if you have relatively long arms weighting the front end for aggressive cornering is difficult if the stack is too high. I"m 5-10 with a 6-1 wingspan and nearly always slam the stem and run low rise bars. Anything higher feels fine on steeps but corners like crap.
I've modded every bike I've own to a higher stack with an extra spacer, I also reduce the stem to a really short one and fit 35mm riser bars, I don't want to feel like I'm falling over the bars when I'm shifting my weight to a foward position for more front end grip or moving back a little going down steep rock faces (loading or unloading threw my arms or legs etc), I don't need the bike to compensate this for me i can do it myself. In my opinion it also gives this crappy riding position like falling fowards when seated on climbs which puts pressure on the front of the sit bones from the saddle because your hips are rotated foward at an angle downwards as your leaning further fowards this also puts more weight thru your arms and wrists rather than spreading the weight evenly front to back in a neutral flat riding position......long live a bigger stack......🙂
In my experience, ideal all-around trailbike geometry is 77* STA and 65* HTA. If I measure from the ground to the top of my saddle and from the ground to the top of my grips, those two measurements should be same or up to about as much as 2 inches higher for the grips. To me, stack isn't very useful, it's the difference to the height of the saddle to the height of the grips that matters. On many of the bikes I've owned, I've raised the stem and/or installed a riser bar to get the grips equal to or higher than the saddle. I would have liked to see some numbers on what you think is ideal geo?
that might work only with your body composition. People tend to have different proportions - longer legs, shorter torso, shorter hand, etc. I like running my grips a little lower to help with the climbing position, but I hate high BBs in general, so it depends.
High stack is pretty useful when up and out of the saddle, it allows for a more balanced descending position that allows you to move around more. I agree on trail bike geo. For enduro geo, I would lean more towards 76* STA and 64*HTA, the ultra steep seat tubes aren't comfortable for longer rides. Maybe even a little slacker on STA if your reach isn't crazy and you have longer chainstays. My own bike (RM Altitude) has a 75.6*STA in the full slack position, and is quite comfortable but still steep enough to keep the front end down on steeper climbs.
@@mrvwbug4423 I've put a 27.5 wheel on mine with the 8th position on the flipchip. Gives me 10mm bb drop, 64.5/75.5 angles. I'm considering a mullet link but as a means to add progression if needed on my coil.
I’ve never seen nor ridden a bike that enables me to get my saddle level or above my bars, even running 40mm risers & 50mm of spaces. I can’t wait for more stack. The ‘benefits’ of a huge inseam, especially for my height. My Cotic comes close.
The Transition Spire is hardiy the bike of the future with a 70 degree seat tube angle. I can take any bike and overfork it to get a slack headtube angle and slack seat tube angle.
so reduced offset is a trend that makes wheel-flop more prominent by increasing the trail, but I like the feel of more trail, it feels like I can push the front wheel more into turns.
just putting together a Banshee Prime, think it falls into the suggested geometry. It's often discussed vs Raaw Madonna and Last Coal being similar in forums.
I have an "incredibly steep" 2020 Trek Remedy in high position, and also run my Rocky Maiden in the steepest setting. I love the way the bikes feel so I kind of agree with Henry! But I also have an Arrival and that thing is miles longer, lower, and slacker. The Arrival is also much faster when I ride it with equal effort so..... 😅
When you have a flip chip, you gain stack height in the slack setting (it angles the head tube up and towards you more). My RM Altitude goes from a decidedly average 629mm stack in the steepest position to a quite high 638mm stack in the slackest position. It's also not a crazy slack bike at 64.4HTA in the slackest setting.
So. You're talking about the bikes Banshee has been building for years? Banshee Enduro = Titan: 130mm head tube, 64 HTA, 455mm chain stays. 155 travel, 65mm shock. Banshee XC= Phantom: 130mm head tube, 66 HTA, 446mm chain stays. 115 travel, 50mm shock. Between geometry and leverage ratio, Banshee is 10 years ahead of the pack.
Currently riding 60mm high rise bars on my S4 Enduro. At 6ft 2 I’d much prefer a higher stack height. I’m tempted to try the S5 but it looks like a big bike to handle.
I certainly believe in longer chainstays being useful on mountain terrain. But good luck if you are into trials. However going too long and the rear end will start feeling disconected. To make it feel normal again i think the solution is a slacker seat tube angle. In other words think as if everything remains same but your pedals moved a little towards the front. That's a great idea if you ask me with todays bicycles that feel like chopper. An other aspect of geometry that changes stack height and plays and important role about stability is bb drop. Oh please it's a nightmare. As it seems geometry is being settled only with road bikes and old 26ers at 90's xc geo. For modern mtbs we ride along a ever growing wave of slacker longer and lower. Did we find our limit ?
Bugger it, I’m taking up monocycling. Wheel size & width and crank length is pretty much all I’ll be worrying about ….. and whether my body armour is enough!
Anyone follow Rulezman Suspension? He's either a prophet or the industry believes him. Reducing trail/fork offset fixes this issue. Just like every motorbike that's slack, minimal minimal minimal fork trail, swept bears, negative effective stem length
I think this way more relevant for larger riders and larger bike sizes. Generally, the Small and Medium bikes seem to be pretty well sorted in the stack department
Sooo we're pretty much going back to 2013-2016 XC bike geo? I mean both my dad's Scott Spark and my HaiBike GREED both feel that the stack is much higher than pretty much every other XC bike right now.
My confusion around that reverse stem was always about climbing, with that much stack, how much longer of a rear end do you need to keep the front weighted for climbing? Seriously curious about the next video. Great conversation.
@MariusJob While I fully agree that my design intentions were focused on improving DH performance along with cornering, I actually greatly prefer climbing with the RR stem relative to a traditional stem, and many of my customers like the climbing more too. With a traditional low and forward offset stem, when you are climbing something steep and trying to leverage yourself forward when pedaling hard, you can’t really pull back on the bars to keep yourself forward without the front end starting to wander and flop around uncontrollably. This is because with the forward offset of traditional stems, the bars pull closer to you when they turn. To compensate for this, riders tend to ride elbows up and pulling more up on the bars. This can lead to the front wheel lifting during hard pedal strokes. Finding that balance between pulling the front up to stop it from wandering, and pulling the bars back to stop it from lifting is a constant challenge that typically is dealt with by lowering your bars so low that you are basically falling forward onto them with straighter arms to support your body. With the Reversed offset of the RR stem, the bars pull closer to you when they stabilize straight, so the front end doesn’t wander and flop around uncontrollably. Because of this, you can ride with low relaxed and bent elbows and shoulders while pulling back and slightly down so that the front isn’t lifting. You can also combine this with tilting the nose of your seat down some, shifting your butt forward on it a bit, and potentially even shifting the seat forward on its rails some. On more mellow climbs, you have a much more comfortable upright position with an open chest for easy breathing, and minimal weight supported on your hands.
My moto cross bike has an exceptionally high stack height compared to all the other bikes IV rode, felt weird at first but no everything else feels weird and tha stack allows you to not lose your front end as much.
Ok, I miss something, this video applies for only people that goes down: Not me. I´m XC and I don´t like too tall bicycles in the front because climbing is quite unconfortable. I have sold my Meta for that reason despite it was my "fun bicycle" because they are very nice going down.
![Cornering Demystified FOREVER [ACTUALLY URGENT]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9SB1_0s1ivk/mqdefault.jpg)
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
The info in this video really stacked up, maybe it’s a bit of a reach but this really handles the issue at hand. The best video to get a grip on it all, bar none.
😂😂
Well done 👏
Very punny
Respect
I see the angle your taking, made for a good brake. Wheely funny. Had me rolling
Man that was funny. I’m glad Stack is finally getting acknowledged for having something to do with it. I got a Spire XL, but the front end is super low. Recently road something with a high stack and it felt so good, up and down. You can get a spacer that goes on the the fork
crown, but most bikes already have their steer tube cut.
Use a high rise bars.
Yeah dude the Bike industry got the geometry all fucked up the most! If your a tall rider
@@jamesfynnhere6983 Damn. I've thought about the spire XXL knowing I'd need to raise the bars. I run 70mm on my other bike. If 85 isn't enough on the spire, maybe it's not for me at 6'5".. How tall are you?
What high stack bike are you referring to?
Does over forking the bike have the same effect (travel front/rear balance excluded from the equation)
Also, raising the clamp points on a dual crown?
16:26 To all the people wondering what the gold stem at the end of the video is and why I made it, this is the RR (Raised Reversed) stem. It is both Raised up and Reversed in offset so that your hands are ultimately behind the steering axis instead of in front as is traditional.
The Raised height helps improve the riders stance with a better arm angle to the bars for confidence, proper bend in the elbows for control, and more rider weight supported by their legs instead of hands. It also gives a longer lever between their hands and feet to give them more leverage for maneuvering the bike. These help the rider to feel more comfortable and confident, and makes the bike more maneuverable.
The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain.
I am consistently significantly faster riding on a bike with the RR stem relative to traditional 50mm - 35mm stems. I have gotten better race results, such as when I won 🥇 the Southridge USA DH Expert Men 19-29 race with a time 3 seconds faster than 3rd place in Pro Men, and I can now ride more technical terrain and bigger jumps than I ever could before using the RR stem. The RR stem has been in development for over 3 years testing all kinds of different heights and offsets on various bikes and terrain, always benchmarking against the traditional 50mm - 35mm stem. I tested anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem you see here, and 70mm offset forward all the way to 70mm offset Reversed. The RR stem that I now sell on the Be More Bikes website:
bemorebikes.com
is the culmination of all of that testing to find the best Enduro mtb stem geometry with a -15mm Reversed offset. If you have any questions please leave a reply, or check out my Tech and FAQ’s page here:
bemorebikes.com/tech-and-faqs.html
I love having discussions. 🙂
Seems like if you up sized your bike frame it would match best with this reversed Hi-rise stem. So you don't end up with too short of reach.
@@TurboWolf5000 Sizing up from the frame size that you already feel fits you best with a traditional stem to a larger frame is not necessary to use the RR stem. The RR stems Raised height pairs perfectly with the closer hand position from the Reversed offset so that you don’t need to upsize your bike. Typically to have a good angle of your arms to the bars and enough bend at the elbows for moving around in good form, you’re hinged forward at the hips such that your back is fairly horizontal. With the more upright position of the RR stem, you don’t need to account for as much horizontal torso length in the cockpit. Also, the total distance between your feet and hands increases for a roomier feel. I’m 5’8” and I’ve tested the RR stem on bikes with reaches from 405mm to 500mm, and I am always faster and in more control with an RR stem. I find about 460mm - 470mm is a good sweet spot for me. I currently ride a Trek Slash 29 in size M/L which is the same size that would otherwise be recommended for my height with a traditional stem. All of my customers that I have talked to have been very happy doing a direct swap of their existing traditional stem to the RR stem on whatever bike they were already using. The vast majority of them were not on particularly long or otherwise extreme geometry frames for their heights.
You can certainly use the RR stem on a larger frame that otherwise may feel a bit unwieldy with a traditional stem though. Again, I’m 5’8” and I actually owned an XXL YT Capra 29 with a 500mm reach for a while to test if you needed a larger frame to work with the RR stem. That bike was sick because it was super long and stable, but because of the RR stems increased leverage from the Raised height, and the improved steering geometry of the Reversed offset, I actually gained maneuverability so it wasn’t hard to ride on tighter more technical terrain. I was even able to make some turns tighter on the XXL YT Capra 29 with the RR stem than I could with my 2013 size L Evil Uprising 26” with a 437mm reach and 4” shorter wheelbase with a traditional 50mm stem!
What about your time difference from the second place. Why do you mention the 3rd instead? 🤨 And I find your lack of clarification from the beginning, that all these benefits that you mention apply only downhill, disturbing. I can't imagine this stem would help you climb in any way...
@@taz800 I mention 3rd place because I was faster than 3rd place in Pro Men and could have still been on the podium in Pro Men even though I race in Expert Men a step below Pro. In my class of Expert Men I was 7 seconds faster than 2nd place in that race, and that was my best result to date. Before the RR stem, 14th was my best result in Expert Men, and I was quite substantially slower than that same rider who got 3rd in Pro Men the day that I won in Expert Men.
While I would say the main benefits of the RR stem are focused on improving descending and cornering performance, climbing is actually quite comfortable with the RR stem. I actually greatly prefer climbing with the RR stem relative to a traditional stem, and many of my customers like the climbing more too. With a traditional low and forward offset stem, when you are climbing something steep and trying to leverage yourself forward when pedaling hard, you can’t really pull back on the bars to keep yourself forward without the front end starting to wander and flop around uncontrollably. This is because with the forward offset of traditional stems, the bars pull closer to you when they turn. To compensate for this, riders tend to ride elbows up and pulling more up on the bars. This can lead to the front wheel lifting during hard pedal strokes. Finding that balance between pulling the front up to stop it from wandering, and pulling the bars back to stop it from lifting is a constant challenge that typically is dealt with by lowering your bars so low that you are basically falling forward onto them with straighter arms to support your body. With the Reversed offset of the RR stem, the bars pull closer to you when they stabilize straight, so the front end doesn’t wander and flop around uncontrollably. Because of this, you can ride with low relaxed and bent elbows and shoulders while pulling back and slightly down so that the front isn’t lifting. You can also combine this with tilting the nose of your seat down some, shifting your butt forward on it a bit, and potentially even shifting the seat forward on its rails some. On more mellow climbs, you have a much more comfortable upright position with an open chest for easy breathing, and minimal weight supported on your hands.
As a taller rider, I feel geometry has been messed up for us for a long time and still is.. Another relationship to you think about is your seat height to the top of your grips. Anything more than 1 1/2 inches of drop to the bar is pretty uncomfortable. We definitely need more stack height on XL and XXL bikes. The only fix is to buy a bike with shorter travel and over fork it. An then high rise Bars to Compensate for the bike industry's lack of experience.
Except if you increase stack like that, you are also shortening the reach, which doesn’t help us tall folks.
@tjb8841 You're Right ✅️
But I thought of that too 🤔 So I up sizes to a XXL YT Izzo w/ 513mm reach. I'm 6,3 witch puts me at the very bottom of there XXL frame to Compensate for that too.
@@TurboWolf5000allso on the izzo xxl to get them things higher😅
Couldn't agree more. XXL Stumpy and I still feel like I'm riding an XC bike with the low stack. Even high rise bars doesn't get me there at 6'8". I custom build hardtail mtb frames to fit my size. High stack long reach 63 degree head angle and 450-470mm chain stays. You won't find that geo on the market because there is not enough people to sell to, but everything he said in the video makes sense to me.
I'm 6'4"with very long legs and arms. I'm considering exchanging my 2020 Hightower for the latest megatower due to the 668/670 mm stack height-and I need more travel!
And thats one of the reasons I just got the RAAW Madonna, long rear end and high stack. Great video Henry!
Is there something like a RAAW Madonna but with a straight seat tube? I need my 210mm dropper
Soon as the mediums come back in stock, I might get one to replace my 153. Everything looks great with that frame.
I appreciate the production factor (videography , fun dialogue) supporting this very informative video.
I couldn't agree more with your take. I really hope, thats the way forward.
I've tested a few enduros this summer.
Most came with low fronts, short stays and long reaches.
Your neutral position had to be on the aggressive side (low upper body) to get a good weight distribution.
This takes away from your range of motion and also feels less playful.
Though short stays adds to the snappy / responsive feel, a relaxed neutral position to me is still the most important attribute of a good setup.
You can combine the two on the right bike. I ride a Rocky Mountain Altitude, it has very high stack, combined with adjustable dropouts for either a long or short chain stay, but the bike as a whole is on the shorter side of the segment with a wheelbase of 1249mm on a size L in the short chainstay setting.
Got the Santacruz Megatower V2 and it has a really high stack compared to anything on the market. I am 6’3 and it feels really good.
aero
As a tall, 6'5" rider, I'm super happy to see so many complaints of similar experiences with long and low bikes. I'm pretty tired of my neck hurting, and trying roll something steep and feeling like I'm getting pulled over over the bars. I know you can't just scale every dimension of a bike when creating larger sizes, but what are we doing when we get down to 1.2 stack/reach ratios? According to 99spokes, the stack reach ratio of the XXL Spire High setting is 1.21. For Medium, it's 1.35!!! Might as well give them different names because they're totally different bikes.
I'm over here hoping for a 30.5" wheel standard, and xxl bikes that are actually shaped like their medium counter parts. Maybe something will appear under my christmas tree.
6'8" rider. In my experience everything should grow on the bike as you get taller. Not just the saddle height. The comments in the video on stack height make perfect sense. This is where the bike industry really doesn't get it. I agree it's time for our own wheel size. Extra tall riders must unite and make demands!!!
6'4 rider here. You'd basically have to scale the travel as well
that was a really long way of saying “they’ve milked the long low and slack revenue stream, and they need to go back to steeper to sell more bikes”
Haha ikr!! I haven’t watched the whole video, but when he said “why stacks time has finally come” I instantly thought, is it to sell more bikes????? They’ve done wheels and geometry, even a new hanger standard, they’re running out of ways to tell you your bike is redundant
Bikes gonna eventually go full circle. Watch, the long stem will be coming soon. Lol
@@solobellimino2356still waiting…
yep, shorter reach and higher stack gonna be the new wave next few years. more upright lol
@@solobellimino2356 no it won’t. They definitely don’t go full circle.
Couldn't agree more. Running a 2021 Dreadnought in XL as a 6'4'. Long rear end and even with a reach of 506 and stack of almost 640, I still need a 35mm riser bar on it. Same with the Reign E+ and 500 Reach/655 Stack.. Using longer stem and 20mm riser.
I'm currently running 80mm Diety Highsides on my both of my bikes and am very very happy with how they ride.
Got the same on my Jeffsy, love it!
Thirds! Hardtail, DJ and emtb
14:55 Thats where the BMB Raised Reversed Stem comes across my mind. Id love to see you try out and explain how it works or if it even works as intended. Cheers ride on
Edit: I should have watched the whole thing first lul
Totally agree with this pov... those low front ends on modern bikes will eventually wear out the arms, shoulders and backs of their riders... trends in geometry have been largely dictated by fashion which comes from racing people and we all know these are not average riders.... good work I think you are spot on with the observations... very interestied to see part 2...
As great as the topic and the singing is I see that Henry has gone full Canadian and adopted the Canadian Tuxedo. Can confirm that's the best part of the video and I suggest you let that one marinate.
He fits right in with the BC crowd. I swore I heard as many British accents up in Whistler this last summer than I did Canadian accents.
Santa Cruz are doing good things here, especially for taller riders. High stacks, sensible reach and angles, size-specific rear ends. They're also unusual in putting longer stays on their mullet bikes to balance out the quicker handling from the smaller rear wheel, instead of going as short as possible and leaving larger frame sizes feeling like they're trying to kill you.
Ditto. This is nothing new. SC have been doing long and high for years.
so my "All Mountain" bike is going to be back in fashion!😂
It all comes back around!
When wasn't it? The Ibis Ripmo, the poster child of all mountain bikes is still one of the top selling bikes on the market.
@@mrvwbug4423 I haven't been in style since..... ok I was never in style but I just ride what I like, trends be damned
@@mrvwbug4423 I feel like we don't hear about "all mountain" as a category much though. Many (most?) brands don't list it as a category, just trail and enduro (where all mountain would fall in between).
@@treebeardmtb Stumpjumper Evo was a good seller and still very popular. Already has a high stack compared to many similar sized bikes. 475 reach, 635mm stack, I’m still using 20mm spacer setup all mountain.
If you have long legs and arms and a short torso like me. The high stack will feel so good trust me. I’m 6’3” bikes finally fit
Funny you say that. I borrowed a shops pivot shuttle in a medium (I ride a large in most bikes).
The stack was higher than both my prior bikes. It actually felt really good to ride. Even a size smaller than I usually ride.
I'm 6' tall long legs / arms and a short torso.
Don't forget to watch that the chainstays are at least 445 mm to compensate for that... My Propain Rage feels just right because of that, it is an XL with a few spacers to rise that stack (I'm 6' 2'' with long limbs)
@@g.wilsondh8407 ya I have a short chain stay dirt jumper. But the long chainstays help to an extent especially when I climb. There is a definite sweet spot for each rider.
btw thanks for being considerate to people suffering from epilepsy. I was recently diagnosed and it 's been an interesting adjustment
Good Stuff. Humor, info, and thought.
I have played with this notion of high stack for 2 years now. A high fork tube helps but as noted, it bring everything towards you. That can feel good to a point but shortens the cockpit. I then added a taller rise bar and a longer stem in order to have my similar reach yet still having a corrected steerer angle. The results was more comfort on the hands and better stability for me. Downside is you have to get use to not pulling on the bars as much as it will lift the front end easier due to more leverage.
Try it out and see what y’all think. Get a high rise bar and a +10-20mm stem and it becomes a quick swap and test.
I've been riding my Spire for the same amount of time (since your review) here on the NS. Mid summer, this year I got tired of teh flop and put on a 1 degree Works Components angle set. Wow what a difference! Its so much better suited for the slower teck, climbing AND steep Techy descents . If I wanted to I could drop to the low setting for whistler laps...but I don't think id bother. Cheap and easy change to a great bike.
Bold strategy talking about fashion while wearing Double Denim!😂
I thought everyone else was blind
@@janeblogs324 I think the Canadian Tuxedo was part of the bit😂❤
I like slacker bikes in high speed for obvious reasons but I also like it at slower speeds in steep terrain. I find it’s easier to track stand with the stiffness of steering/flop almost like a steering stabilizer as the bike compresses. Also steeper head angle much more twitchy in balancing in steep terrain and slow steep terrain and ruts. Steeper head angle also only gets steeper as it compresses which makes it harder to balance in slower steeper terrain and super twitchy at high speeds. But makes a bike more fun on average intermediate trails.
Phenomenal videography and writing. I'm in awe! Great work.
My mind was blown with the mid sing song 😂
Rocky Mountain had this figured out 3 years ago. The Altitude has a nearly 640mm stack on size L and over 650mm in XL, without a crazy steep HTA (74.4 in full slack setting), and without a crazy long reach of just 474 in size L. Obviously it works because Melamed won an EWS title on that bike. This might be why the key question for every enduro field test since 2021 has been "is it better than a Specialized Enduro or Rocky Mountain Altitude". That also shows the dichotomy in stack heights as well as the Spec Enduro is one of the lowest stack heights in the segment and the Altitude is one of the highest (though the new Meta V5 SX took stack height up to 11)
64.4?? Cuz 74 HTA is way beyond super steep
@@bryanmyers4970 74 is steep for road bikes!
Henry is the greatest gem and replacement of the unwavering vague salt Levy brought for Pinkbike and I won't hear other opinions. Poetry like insults and actual parody songs with interpretive dance. The fact this content is free is lifting my hopes for humanity.
As someone with a longer torso it took me a while to realise the importance of a bike with a higher stack. I have a Kona process with a stack of 596mm and it feels so damn low for me even with 38mm riser bars. My newer bikes with slightly longer reach but around 45mm higher stack just feel absolutely spot on.
Wouldn’t a longer torso (assuming proportional arm length) mean you need less stack because you have shorter legs?
I think a higher stack is better in general for most people btw
I rode a transition sentinel back to back with my specialized demo. While I love the sentinel, it felt like my upper body always had to be in such an aggressive position. It was a lot of fun, but it's exhausting to always be in that aggro mode.
I bought a pivot firebird and have to admit, I didn't feel I had a great fit or feel out of the box till I ran the spacers to give higher stack and changed to a 35mm riser bar then it felt and handled better over a wider range of terrain from super gnarly DH lines to flow and steep tech sections. The reach was still long so added a 180mm air spring and the handling got ever better. Kind of counter intuitive but it works better than the standard height lower front end.
Might I ask how tall you are and what size did you get? I demoed the Firebird in 2 sizes over the summer and at 5'10" neither fit great. The size L and its 490mm reach was way too much and it was hard to keep the front end weighted. The size M had 473mm reach which is in my sweet spot, but the stack was too low. I ended up getting a RM Altitude, which has both a perfect reach number for me at 474mm but also has a very high stack height which feels amazing when pointed downhill and is also comfortable while pedaling.
I'm bang on 6" and ride a large. I got an insane deal from a store owner affiliated with our club so went with it. Medium wasn't on the floor so there wasn't a deal to be done. I really like steep techy lines and a short step gives a snappier steering response. Works well for me with a 770 bar. If I'm honest I came off a large norco sight (2021) and there large is closer to a Pivots Medium in reach and fit. The Pivot firebird in a medium would have been easier to get on with out of the box but the flip side is its wicked stable at steep. ;)
Fox need to bring back the talas fork. I had the 36mm 180/140 talas and it was great for this reason. The frame was designed to run 180mm. However, when climbing, you could lock it at 140mm, which had the benefit of a steeper seat tube, a lower effective stack, and a steeper head angle. Perfect for slower more technical sections and climbs. Although it lowers the bb, I never had any pedal strike issues.
Stack is very important for general comfort on your bike.
I have Fuel Ex gen 5, IMO that bike has low stack, at least for me. So I put 10mm longer fork and 40mm riser bar instead of 28mm rise bar how it comes.
Higher stack makes your shoulders and back more relaxed i.e. pain free.
I have a 2015 enduro type bike. It's perfect and has always been. I'm just waiting for it to be officially perfect again.
Been loving high stack for years, just a by-product of riding XL alloy bikes. I guess my bikes are from the future. Love the dance moves. Reeb, Cotic, Banshee
Informational and entertaining!
These are the videos i wanna watch!
Well, that was very informative and entertaining
I can feel the sweat of that Canadian tuxedo while im just sitting here
Wow! Henry’s cutting loose!! It helps me miss Mike Levy a bit less. Super interesting episode.
Sort of mind blowing... Great thinking outside of the box Henry.
I recently threw a 50mm riser bar on my older 2019 GT Sensor (65.5 deg head angle, 435mm chainstay), essentially creating the same high stack scenario. I can’t believe how much better it feels on the trail….Dak Norton is onto something here
Hasn’t Santa Cruz been doing exactly this for the last few years and getting sub par reviews for not being slack enough?
My next bike I'm eyeing is the XXL high tower, which does have steeper head tube angle at 64.8, but I don't know if the chainstay is long enough to make the point of this video. The XXL has a 443 chainstay. The madonna XL (largest size) has 450. Seems like a massive difference.
@@AnonYTChannelNamethe Hightower is a trail bike, XXL megatower is more comparable to these bikes, and has 448mm chainstays.
that's subjective imho. 19-21 megatower is a great Enduro bike if you install a 170 fork
can't pretty much get any better
got myself an RM Altitude - very happy with the choice
Great work.
This is why high bend bars are better to manage cockpit fit vs stem spacers.
You can achieve the same changes with spacers and stem length, instead of changing bars rise.
I love the geometry of my Mondraker Level RR 2023 in L. 490mm reach, 652mm stack, 455mm chainstays, 76.5° effective seat angle. I'm 187cm and like a very high front, so I ride with the standard 4 spacers, 40mm stem with 6° rise and 40mm rise 790mm handlebars. At 65°, the head angle is relatively steep compared to other enduro/freeride MTB/E-MTBs, but that's exactly what I like about the bike. Despite the 180mm travel, the geometry is very balanced and the uphill performance is extremely good and the downhill performance is also extremely good at my speed. Bikes with a flatter head angle and shorter chainstays like a Canyon Torque:ON CF or Propain Ekano 2 CF/AL may be more suitable for racers, but I also use the bike for home trails and live in an area where I can't ride 40km/h consistently and also have to drive a lot uphill. That's why I prefer a steeper steering angle that doesn't tilt as much at lower speeds and a high front. And the long chainstays are really helpful uphill and overall I stand much more in the middle of the bike. On bikes with a 63° head angle, 500mm reach and 445mm chainstays, you stand way too far back and the front and rear are very unbalanced. At least that was my feeling during test drives. I immediately felt comfortable on the Mondraker and I can really shoot with the bike, but it is still easy to use on normal, slow trails.
I have a low stack height and therefore find myself bumbling down the trail quite often, thanks for explaining!
Thanks for the insight: I totally agree with alot of the things said. There are some bikes out there with -in my opinion- way too slack head angles. For exactly that reason of wheel flop in slow speeds.
But also there's soooo much to put in account since the whole bike is a summary of so many diffent variables that have to work with all the variables of my body, riding style and the trails I ride.
(To sum up: My current bike (a 2018 RM Slayer) works perfectly for me (after many changes and finding THE setup that works for my within the margin that bike offers), my next bike will have nearly similar specs and be relatively steep compared to many bikes out there).
That's a fine development path for Enduro where you don't focus on optimal posture for pedaling. But please leave XC bike low.
I can't pedal well unless I lean over. So therefore I lean over regardless of bar height.
Then, if the stack is high. I have to absorb the short distance between my shoulder socket and the bar with highly bent elbows. That highly bent elbow across the ride of many hours is extremely tiring. Lots of energy wasted just to compensate for too tall bar.
A lower handle bar allow my arms to be more straight given the same lean over posture I require to pedal. That saving me so much energy to spend on my legs rather than my arms.
Its two triangles, this is getting ridiculous.
For real. It’s a bike get out and ride. Im still on a 2016 giant trance still running 2x11 and im perfectly happy. I did make the switch to tubless a couple years ago and that’s pretty tight.
@@Bolie420 I also just think that geometry changes in response to technology. Sure, droppers and 29ers made new shapes possible. But what’s the catalyst now? With so few variables I doubt there’s some magic shape nobody tried for 10+ years. If there is, thats just kind of dumb.
Sales people will do some really crazy mental gymnastics just to sell next generation of bikes. We are past the biggest advancements in MTB. Now it's just refinement. But they expect to sell just as much or more. It's like with PCs 30 years ago. Every month a new CPU, bigger RAM, better graphics. Nowadays there changes year to year are irrelevant. And PC sales is almost zero.
Consider that without levy before, we'd probably all still be on 80mm stems, a change that propelled broader geo changes, leading to the best bikes that have ever existed. It's journalism, asking these questions and finding the answers is the whole point.
The easier you think something is the less you know about it.
I'm 6"3 and my raaw Madonna V2.2 XL from 2022 has a stack of 670mm + 20mm spacers + 40mm rise bars and feels mint.
fork offset also too. As headtube angle got slacker that made the front wheel more floppy so they shorten the offset. The thing with stack is that when it gets too high it tends to feel like you are teeter tottering over the bars, like when bars are too low and weight is too foward. Really it is a combonation of head angle, stack, fork offset, etc., when one is adjusted the other has to be adjusted too just like with slacker and offset. On my enduro I actually put the spacers above the stem so as to not feel that teeter totter feel. On my trail I just did the same to climb a little better cause the front end was wanting to lift casue it was too tall. A part of all this is also balance, shifting that center of gravity and center of mass around
Fantastic episode Henry. I really enjoyed your candor.😊
mtb Geometry is finally emancipating from Road bikes(we have to look more at motocross). We need longer Rear center, higher stacks and HTAs matching the bikes purpose.
Thank you for the initial notice! ❤
Tall head tube, slightly steep and a deep stack height. Sounds familiar, o right, they basically built a mountain bike around dirtbike geometry. You would also be correct about chain stay or swing arm length in the moto world. Long vs. short has positive and negative effects.
This is why I ride taller riser bars on my bikes
The problem with high rise bars is when you roll it forward or backward it changes your grips location and backsweep and also the steering characteristics of the bike so finding the sweet spot on high rise bar. You should run lower rise bar like 25-35 and shortest stem you can find
Nope. Happy with the high ride bars, but thanks for your input.
Love my 40s and 35 stem
I use a 60mm ride bar. Problem solved. Feels amazing and upped my confidence significantly. I also no longer get back pain from hunching over on flat rides.
I learned my lesson after spending too much time and money trying to get my bars up high enough to feel comfortable on a brand new bike. Ended up selling it and going on a search for something that had reasonable stack for an xl frame.
Great video Henry!
Yes! why i chose a RAAW Madonna, not crazy reach, but a nice high stack and longer stays. Also high rise bars - really does depend on the make and model as some are design to be rolled in line (ish) with the head angle (and adjust from there), where as others the rise is designed to be vertical (and then adjust either way from there).
I want to know the ideal head angle. Like fork axle path on different head angles its like high pivot but infront of you, does slacker make your fork feel like a high pivot? You get what I mean (slacker the more the axle path travel). Also the more your front end compress the less your head angle get so your 63 HA will never be 63 after it goes trough the sag.
So my Slash Gen 5 with 40mm Riser bar is up to date again :) Only it got the short chain stay, so it will be even more nimble and playful ;)
So funny this video has come out. I’ve looking for a bike with a high stack. I ride a META v4 TR size L. I rode my fathers Rocky Mountain Altitude XL and it feels like so good even tho it’s slightly longer. Hit that right on the nail man lol
Banshee have high stack
disregarded all sht modern tendencies and got myself an Altitude too
an I love it. You can always slacken it with a headset if needed
@@ostankovalex1176 yeah man my buddy got one. I rode my dads for a couple of hours at some local trails climb up and descend. I really loved the bike and the adjustment you can do is awesome
Yup, the Altitude was ahead of its time with a high stack even in 2021. I have one myself and its an absolute weapon of a bike. Easy to see how Melamed won an EWS title on it. It even tech climbs better than most DW link bikes just because it doesn't bounce over roots and rocks like DWs like to do (Pivot Firebird still wins out going up though, but the Firebird is the best climbing bike I've ever seen).
@@mrvwbug4423 haven't ridden a Firebird, but it was said it's a kind of a stiff bike, so maybe not so plush as Altitude - who knows
Been considering a Firebird once, but I'm not a fan of very short chainstays
Stay tuned for the summer concert tour with Henry and The Loam Ranger!
Given Ryan's opinion of Henry that should be ... interesting haha.
What is the brand and model of that front fender? Thanks
Im so glad Henry came to PB 7:38
Finally man you guys have actually understood this
Loved LOVED the pulp fiction reference!!!
A huge factor affecting stack is wingspan; if you have relatively long arms weighting the front end for aggressive cornering is difficult if the stack is too high. I"m 5-10 with a 6-1 wingspan and nearly always slam the stem and run low rise bars. Anything higher feels fine on steeps but corners like crap.
I've modded every bike I've own to a higher stack with an extra spacer, I also reduce the stem to a really short one and fit 35mm riser bars, I don't want to feel like I'm falling over the bars when I'm shifting my weight to a foward position for more front end grip or moving back a little going down steep rock faces (loading or unloading threw my arms or legs etc), I don't need the bike to compensate this for me i can do it myself.
In my opinion it also gives this crappy riding position like falling fowards when seated on climbs which puts pressure on the front of the sit bones from the saddle because your hips are rotated foward at an angle downwards as your leaning further fowards this also puts more weight thru your arms and wrists rather than spreading the weight evenly front to back in a neutral flat riding position......long live a bigger stack......🙂
In my experience, ideal all-around trailbike geometry is 77* STA and 65* HTA. If I measure from the ground to the top of my saddle and from the ground to the top of my grips, those two measurements should be same or up to about as much as 2 inches higher for the grips. To me, stack isn't very useful, it's the difference to the height of the saddle to the height of the grips that matters. On many of the bikes I've owned, I've raised the stem and/or installed a riser bar to get the grips equal to or higher than the saddle. I would have liked to see some numbers on what you think is ideal geo?
that might work only with your body composition. People tend to have different proportions - longer legs, shorter torso, shorter hand, etc.
I like running my grips a little lower to help with the climbing position, but I hate high BBs in general, so it depends.
High stack is pretty useful when up and out of the saddle, it allows for a more balanced descending position that allows you to move around more. I agree on trail bike geo. For enduro geo, I would lean more towards 76* STA and 64*HTA, the ultra steep seat tubes aren't comfortable for longer rides. Maybe even a little slacker on STA if your reach isn't crazy and you have longer chainstays. My own bike (RM Altitude) has a 75.6*STA in the full slack position, and is quite comfortable but still steep enough to keep the front end down on steeper climbs.
@@mrvwbug4423 I've put a 27.5 wheel on mine with the 8th position on the flipchip. Gives me 10mm bb drop, 64.5/75.5 angles. I'm considering a mullet link but as a means to add progression if needed on my coil.
I’ve never seen nor ridden a bike that enables me to get my saddle level or above my bars, even running 40mm risers & 50mm of spaces. I can’t wait for more stack.
The ‘benefits’ of a huge inseam, especially for my height.
My Cotic comes close.
Thank you so much for the strobe warning--I'm one of the people for whom that matters!
I heard on a podcast that those who aren't professional singers should never be caught singing on RUclips...😂
The Transition Spire is hardiy the bike of the future with a 70 degree seat tube angle. I can take any bike and overfork it to get a slack headtube angle and slack seat tube angle.
So what is a good stack height for someone 5 10' ? Trail bike.
makes me love my 2017 specialized enduro even more ❤
Yeah the 2020+ Spec Enduro is actually one of the lowest stack heights in the class
so reduced offset is a trend that makes wheel-flop more prominent by increasing the trail, but I like the feel of more trail, it feels like I can push the front wheel more into turns.
Doesn’t mullet wheel raise the front and lower the back?
just putting together a Banshee Prime, think it falls into the suggested geometry. It's often discussed vs Raaw Madonna and Last Coal being similar in forums.
Henry is a genuine genius. Love him
Henry is a Mountain biking Jeremy Clarkson!
I have an "incredibly steep" 2020 Trek Remedy in high position, and also run my Rocky Maiden in the steepest setting. I love the way the bikes feel so I kind of agree with Henry! But I also have an Arrival and that thing is miles longer, lower, and slacker. The Arrival is also much faster when I ride it with equal effort so..... 😅
When you have a flip chip, you gain stack height in the slack setting (it angles the head tube up and towards you more). My RM Altitude goes from a decidedly average 629mm stack in the steepest position to a quite high 638mm stack in the slackest position. It's also not a crazy slack bike at 64.4HTA in the slackest setting.
So. You're talking about the bikes Banshee has been building for years?
Banshee Enduro = Titan: 130mm head tube, 64 HTA, 455mm chain stays. 155 travel, 65mm shock.
Banshee XC= Phantom: 130mm head tube, 66 HTA, 446mm chain stays. 115 travel, 50mm shock.
Between geometry and leverage ratio, Banshee is 10 years ahead of the pack.
Currently riding 60mm high rise bars on my S4 Enduro. At 6ft 2 I’d much prefer a higher stack height. I’m tempted to try the S5 but it looks like a big bike to handle.
I certainly believe in longer chainstays being useful on mountain terrain. But good luck if you are into trials. However going too long and the rear end will start feeling disconected. To make it feel normal again i think the solution is a slacker seat tube angle. In other words think as if everything remains same but your pedals moved a little towards the front. That's a great idea if you ask me with todays bicycles that feel like chopper. An other aspect of geometry that changes stack height and plays and important role about stability is bb drop. Oh please it's a nightmare. As it seems geometry is being settled only with road bikes and old 26ers at 90's xc geo. For modern mtbs we ride along a ever growing wave of slacker longer and lower. Did we find our limit ?
Your on to something my megatower v2 has a high stack and it made a night and day difference from old bike
That is an outrageous trail fit
This is why I buy chrom moly tubing and build my own frame. Change geo to suit, it’s pretty fun actually not cost effective though haha
Hey, at what hight you are going for an M or L Frame for the Spire?
Bugger it, I’m taking up monocycling. Wheel size & width and crank length is pretty much all I’ll be worrying about ….. and whether my body armour is enough!
Anyone follow Rulezman Suspension? He's either a prophet or the industry believes him.
Reducing trail/fork offset fixes this issue. Just like every motorbike that's slack, minimal minimal minimal fork trail, swept bears, negative effective stem length
I think this way more relevant for larger riders and larger bike sizes. Generally, the Small and Medium bikes seem to be pretty well sorted in the stack department
Agreed, riding a 85mm DJ style bar on a XXL YT.
3:18 bro u gotta tighten the handlebar
Sooo we're pretty much going back to 2013-2016 XC bike geo? I mean both my dad's Scott Spark and my HaiBike GREED both feel that the stack is much higher than pretty much every other XC bike right now.
We love you Henry! 😅
directions unclear, flashing stobe lights went on and my house turned into a rave.
Amazing video
Riser bars exist and don't decrease reach.
My confusion around that reverse stem was always about climbing, with that much stack, how much longer of a rear end do you need to keep the front weighted for climbing? Seriously curious about the next video. Great conversation.
This super long stem is purely for downhill.
Just sit on the bars when climbing……. Problem solved !!!!
@MariusJob While I fully agree that my design intentions were focused on improving DH performance along with cornering, I actually greatly prefer climbing with the RR stem relative to a traditional stem, and many of my customers like the climbing more too. With a traditional low and forward offset stem, when you are climbing something steep and trying to leverage yourself forward when pedaling hard, you can’t really pull back on the bars to keep yourself forward without the front end starting to wander and flop around uncontrollably. This is because with the forward offset of traditional stems, the bars pull closer to you when they turn. To compensate for this, riders tend to ride elbows up and pulling more up on the bars. This can lead to the front wheel lifting during hard pedal strokes. Finding that balance between pulling the front up to stop it from wandering, and pulling the bars back to stop it from lifting is a constant challenge that typically is dealt with by lowering your bars so low that you are basically falling forward onto them with straighter arms to support your body.
With the Reversed offset of the RR stem, the bars pull closer to you when they stabilize straight, so the front end doesn’t wander and flop around uncontrollably. Because of this, you can ride with low relaxed and bent elbows and shoulders while pulling back and slightly down so that the front isn’t lifting. You can also combine this with tilting the nose of your seat down some, shifting your butt forward on it a bit, and potentially even shifting the seat forward on its rails some. On more mellow climbs, you have a much more comfortable upright position with an open chest for easy breathing, and minimal weight supported on your hands.
Find a way to pivot it forward for the climbs. Dropper post up -> stem tilts forward. Climb Mode engaged@@bemorebikes
My moto cross bike has an exceptionally high stack height compared to all the other bikes IV rode, felt weird at first but no everything else feels weird and tha stack allows you to not lose your front end as much.
Ok, I miss something, this video applies for only people that goes down: Not me. I´m XC and I don´t like too tall bicycles in the front because climbing is quite unconfortable. I have sold my Meta for that reason despite it was my "fun bicycle" because they are very nice going down.
Henry is such a great presenter.