thank you very much for that little bit of information. up until right now i couldnt for the life of me figure out why there isnt any type of choil... on spydercos. this is one more thing that puts spyderco in a league of their own when it comes to what makes a knife the best edc hands down. i will not put a choil on my manix 2!! thank you StroppyStuff. just landed one more sub...
people have been telling me that having a sharpening choil makes their knives stick in cardboard, rope...and you showed that. But why cut with the choil? For the knives I sharpen more often I put in a choil. I find them to be really useful especially when you are sharpening your knife quickly. Personally i never found (except for the look, because I too think they look better without a choil) a downside to having a sharpening choil. I have noticed on only a few occasions that material stuck to the choil.
I think it's not a big problem to have a choil unless you only cut thin rope and fabric. It's easy to avoid the choil when you use some finesse, but if you're blindly speed cutting then the natural movement is to put the rope all the way to the back of the knife where you have most leverage.
It's bugged the hell out of me for years, the way knife reviewers say "and this blade has a great sharpening choil" 😱,, It's as if they're openly admitting, they've never used a knife to actually cut anything,, 🤣🤣,, thank goodness I'm a Spyderco fan boy,, ha ha.. Great video btw..
The way you've suggested is what I've been doing lately, but I've been considering a couple other options: either modify the ricasso to be slightly closer to the pivot, or extend the edge entirely past the plunge line (or perhaps a mix of the two). I haven't yet, as I might regret it if it isn't to my liking.
That's one of the reasons I don't like a choil, you can't really remove the choil short of sharpening all the way past it. At least if you sharpen it or leave the "notch" for lack of a better word you can always change it in the future. This seems like the lowest effort move and that suits my use case for Spyderco blades perfectly, they're kinda ugly anyway I don't want to waste time sharpening all the way to the plunge. I like the Micarta one so I don't regret doing that, but for a plain handled PM2 I'm not going to waste my time, it's a user through and through.
@@stroppystuff641 that's a great point - spending the time to get all the way to the plunge doesn't fit with my sharpening goals, and as you said, doesn't fit the character of a Spyderco. And I really doubt the sub-optimally sharpened/unsharpened area much exceeds the size of a choil!
A sharpening choil on a Paramilitary 2 would only be practical if it wasn't FFG. This is why I love combo edges so much, you get a "free" half moon sharpening choil + a small area to cut through rope like nobody's business. The Paramilitary 2 used to be offered in a combo edge & I still own some of my older models. Over years & years of use - you will eventually have to grind off some of "plunge line" (or whatever the small unshspend part would be called - where a choil would normally be) because it starts to look really goofy. Like a little rounded off hump near the bottom, just above the jimping. Just super awkward & annoying. But this is literally years & years of sharpening. Kinds like when you see an old timers trapper knife that has been sharpened soo many times that the blade looks mere like a martini sword than an old clip point. Also, if you don't freehand on stones.. a choil is more for looks. Your clamped systems & the Sharpmaker wouldn't benefit from a choil too much. It's a waste of time to take a Dremel or small file to a PM2. I do appreciate a sharpening choil on larger fixed blades though.
I've never liked the way Spydercos have the ricasso hanging down below the edge grind. I prefer the edge to be the lowest part of the blade. When I do add a choil, I generally make it only as deep as to allow perhaps a years use and sharpening and I'll touch it up and deepen it as necessary. On some knives however, I do it a bit different. On my Cold Steel rajah-3 for instance, which is one of my favorite bushcrafting/camping/woodsmans knives, I take quite a bit of material out as it comes from the factory with a perfectly good sharpening choil....about a 1/4"/6 mm from the large radius plunge grind. Yeah, not sure what happened there. Guess somebody at CS needs their eyeglass prescription updated. Anyway, I simply extend the choil far enough forward to just clear the plunge grind and about the same depth as the original, though you can taper it to a more shallow depth if you prefer. I keep it deep because I then sharpen that forward edge of the choil giving me a tiny double edged sharpened tooth kinda like the beard of a good tomahawk or hatchet or similar to a very shallow gut hook. You'd be amazed how useful that sharp corner is for all kinds of bushcrafting tasks and it also eases the start of a draw cut in rope or other fibrous material. It works excellently on the rajah-3s recurved blade but is also very effective on many other knives. I've given one of my ZT- 0561 Hinderers a similar treatment as well as a Kershaw cryo-2 and a couple fixed blades. It's not really an option for most Spydercos due to their 50/50 finger choil hanging below the edge grind but if you do add a choil as discussed in this video, you may want to add this additional edge grind to it rather than keep it very shallow. It works really well for lots of tasks.
If/when I get a Syderco I WOULD like to put a choil fright where the "recasso" is. Remove the protrusion totally. So it's easier to sharpen the full length of the blade. As for snagging rope on a choil....as you said you could simply not bring the rope back that far. add, most rope wedths woul be too 'wide" to get caught...only "string" might get caught. And that is only if the choil edges haven't been rouneded...made smooth. I prefer the blade geometry on knives like ZT's, Benchmades...or even the Spyderco Spyiechef or Yojimbo.
Insightful video as always! What is your opinion of the PM2 Maxamet vs Cru-wear? I'm interested in buying one of the two and am currently leaning toward cru-wear. Thanks!
Thanks :) I'd say go for the cru-wear, the micarta looks amazing and feels great too, it's got like a soft warm touch to it. I've not found the Maxamet fine edge retention (whittling hair) to last for very long to be honest, I'm sure it will hold the working edge forever but I'm into those ultra sharp edges so the cru-wear does it for me
I’m so glad to see that there are others out there that don’t like choils. There are so many cool looking knives out there that I don’t buy anymore because of these choils. Try opening a 50lb bag of feed with a choiled knife and you’ll see our point.
Excellent information. I have been learning more from your channel than any other knife sharpener. Which micron should I start with? I have been using the compound that comes with dremmel bits on a bit of old leather belt, which it was a good belt/is a good strop... I am not getting mirrored edges but very sharp. I need more water stones/ higher grit. Have you ever looked at granite counter top polishing pads? They are high quality and long lasting, not the ones on amazon though; but could they be a good option or too poorly shaped for knives?
I've not looked into those but I absolutely will! Thanks for the suggestion and thanks for the support! In terms of which compound to use for stropping I would always suggest 1um as the best general purpose edge refinement compound.
@@stroppystuff641 fascinating. Dont you think the actual distribution matters, as well as the substrate used? Harder substrates leave deeper scratches. But in general I think it's like a 1/10. I find that even using something like a 1.5 to 3 or a 2 to 3 um on wood leaves a finish which is brighter than the highest grit whetstones like say a 10k chosera, 16k sg, or a 12k naniwa SS. Those are stones with sub micron abrasive. Yet 2 or 3 um diamond leaves a brighter finish on steel. IMO after getting experience, I would never suggest anyone doing edges use anything below say a 1 um diamond. It's just not worth anything. The most useful ones imo are in the 3 to 6 um zone. I like to use a 5 or 6 um and a 2 or 3 um. But you can easily make good use of much courser ones as well. I think the classic beginner error is focusing on grits that are too high. But I guess that's a good thing because you have less chance to do less damage that way. Maybe it's better that the courser grits are used by those with more experience.
if you want to add a choil then sure, you really need a diamond one though and you'll probably strip the diamonds off adding a single choil, which is fine but not really worth it imo.
Even on a proper on where diamonds are electroplated into the metal? I can understand on the cheapo ones where its glued on... fall off right away@@stroppystuff641
😂sorry man! Fortunately it's really hard to ruin a knife. Very likely you can clean it up with some time sharpening on the stones but unless it's a show piece I wouldn't even worry about it 👍
It's not an error and I think you're right not including one. A sharpening choil is a preference based inclusion, full stop. Categorizing a company's choice not to include this pretty, snag inducing feature as lazy or flawed is, well.... Stupid. What you're effectively asking for with a sharpening choil is: an indented often rounded area at the base of the blade which will always be dull, useless, and generally snags on fibrous material on full penetrative cuts. Essentially, having not made a sharpening choil, but an area where the edge bevel simply stops without a rounded indention thereafter (choil) they've given you the same feature without the drawback of an area of the blade which rather (objectionably) has the real and annoying drawback of snagging on many types of material. I'll state it flatly. Sharpening choils are stupid in practice. They are aesthetic over function. The chief complaint people have for a knife not having the flaw of a perfectly indented and completely dull/pretty section on the base of your blade that can/does snag on stuff is that without one, after many sharpenings, you wind up with a less pretty recurved/wide beveled section at the base of the blade that doesn't snag on anything.
I disagree...kinda. If the choil is done correctly, which is mild and shallow, AND sharpened, it can act as a single serrated notch that will actually work great and not snag as you suggested. The key is shallow and polished. But the problem is many don't know how to make a useful choil and make them too deep ;)
I've never been a fan of choils. Sometimes you may have to cut a rope with a push stroke, and fibers can get caught in the choil. I always just sharpen the unsharpened area down with a cheap extra coarse diamond "stone" and it's not an issue. Internet guys love choils. For those who use their knives for all types of cutting, especially on boats, you want the blade to cut all the way to the Ricasso.
thank you very much for that little bit of information. up until right now i couldnt for the life of me figure out why there isnt any type of choil... on spydercos. this is one more thing that puts spyderco in a league of their own when it comes to what makes a knife the best edc hands down. i will not put a choil on my manix 2!! thank you StroppyStuff. just landed one more sub...
people have been telling me that having a sharpening choil makes their knives stick in cardboard, rope...and you showed that. But why cut with the choil? For the knives I sharpen more often I put in a choil. I find them to be really useful especially when you are sharpening your knife quickly.
Personally i never found (except for the look, because I too think they look better without a choil) a downside to having a sharpening choil. I have noticed on only a few occasions that material stuck to the choil.
I think it's not a big problem to have a choil unless you only cut thin rope and fabric. It's easy to avoid the choil when you use some finesse, but if you're blindly speed cutting then the natural movement is to put the rope all the way to the back of the knife where you have most leverage.
Thanks for laying out the options and your reasoning. You just saved me from ruining a perfectly good rope cutting blade
Alright you convinced me. And even gave me a tutorial! Thanks a lot man
It took me a couple years but I finally learned that you can just sharpen all the way back
Yeah for something like this spyderco I just normally make a few extra passes at the back
thanks for the new video bro!
But for real, I see filing a choil on a spydie almost as making a chip on the edge🤣
Yeah it hurts my soul to see
Like your perspective on the choil issue. 👍👍🔪 Good to see someone else still freehands too.
It's bugged the hell out of me for years, the way knife reviewers say "and this blade has a great sharpening choil" 😱,,
It's as if they're openly admitting, they've never used a knife to actually cut anything,, 🤣🤣,, thank goodness I'm a Spyderco fan boy,,
ha ha.. Great video btw..
The way you've suggested is what I've been doing lately, but I've been considering a couple other options: either modify the ricasso to be slightly closer to the pivot, or extend the edge entirely past the plunge line (or perhaps a mix of the two). I haven't yet, as I might regret it if it isn't to my liking.
That's one of the reasons I don't like a choil, you can't really remove the choil short of sharpening all the way past it. At least if you sharpen it or leave the "notch" for lack of a better word you can always change it in the future. This seems like the lowest effort move and that suits my use case for Spyderco blades perfectly, they're kinda ugly anyway I don't want to waste time sharpening all the way to the plunge. I like the Micarta one so I don't regret doing that, but for a plain handled PM2 I'm not going to waste my time, it's a user through and through.
@@stroppystuff641 that's a great point - spending the time to get all the way to the plunge doesn't fit with my sharpening goals, and as you said, doesn't fit the character of a Spyderco. And I really doubt the sub-optimally sharpened/unsharpened area much exceeds the size of a choil!
A sharpening choil on a Paramilitary 2 would only be practical if it wasn't FFG. This is why I love combo edges so much, you get a "free" half moon sharpening choil + a small area to cut through rope like nobody's business. The Paramilitary 2 used to be offered in a combo edge & I still own some of my older models. Over years & years of use - you will eventually have to grind off some of "plunge line" (or whatever the small unshspend part would be called - where a choil would normally be) because it starts to look really goofy. Like a little rounded off hump near the bottom, just above the jimping. Just super awkward & annoying. But this is literally years & years of sharpening. Kinds like when you see an old timers trapper knife that has been sharpened soo many times that the blade looks mere like a martini sword than an old clip point. Also, if you don't freehand on stones.. a choil is more for looks. Your clamped systems & the Sharpmaker wouldn't benefit from a choil too much. It's a waste of time to take a Dremel or small file to a PM2. I do appreciate a sharpening choil on larger fixed blades though.
I've never liked the way Spydercos have the ricasso hanging down below the edge grind. I prefer the edge to be the lowest part of the blade.
When I do add a choil, I generally make it only as deep as to allow perhaps a years use and sharpening and I'll touch it up and deepen it as necessary.
On some knives however, I do it a bit different. On my Cold Steel rajah-3 for instance, which is one of my favorite bushcrafting/camping/woodsmans knives, I take quite a bit of material out as it comes from the factory with a perfectly good sharpening choil....about a 1/4"/6 mm from the large radius plunge grind. Yeah, not sure what happened there. Guess somebody at CS needs their eyeglass prescription updated.
Anyway, I simply extend the choil far enough forward to just clear the plunge grind and about the same depth as the original, though you can taper it to a more shallow depth if you prefer.
I keep it deep because I then sharpen that forward edge of the choil giving me a tiny double edged sharpened tooth kinda like the beard of a good tomahawk or hatchet or similar to a very shallow gut hook. You'd be amazed how useful that sharp corner is for all kinds of bushcrafting tasks and it also eases the start of a draw cut in rope or other fibrous material.
It works excellently on the rajah-3s recurved blade but is also very effective on many other knives. I've given one of my ZT- 0561 Hinderers a similar treatment as well as a Kershaw cryo-2 and a couple fixed blades.
It's not really an option for most Spydercos due to their 50/50 finger choil hanging below the edge grind but if you do add a choil as discussed in this video, you may want to add this additional edge grind to it rather than keep it very shallow. It works really well for lots of tasks.
If/when I get a Syderco I WOULD like to put a choil fright where the "recasso" is. Remove the protrusion totally. So it's easier to sharpen the full length of the blade.
As for snagging rope on a choil....as you said you could simply not bring the rope back that far. add, most rope wedths woul be too 'wide" to get caught...only "string" might get caught. And that is only if the choil edges haven't been rouneded...made smooth.
I prefer the blade geometry on knives like ZT's, Benchmades...or even the Spyderco Spyiechef or Yojimbo.
Insightful video as always!
What is your opinion of the PM2 Maxamet vs Cru-wear? I'm interested in buying one of the two and am currently leaning toward cru-wear. Thanks!
Thanks :) I'd say go for the cru-wear, the micarta looks amazing and feels great too, it's got like a soft warm touch to it. I've not found the Maxamet fine edge retention (whittling hair) to last for very long to be honest, I'm sure it will hold the working edge forever but I'm into those ultra sharp edges so the cru-wear does it for me
@@stroppystuff641 just ordered the cru-wear!!!
I’m so glad to see that there are others out there that don’t like choils. There are so many cool looking knives out there that I don’t buy anymore because of these choils. Try opening a 50lb bag of feed with a choiled knife and you’ll see our point.
Choilless brother!
Excellent information. I have been learning more from your channel than any other knife sharpener. Which micron should I start with? I have been using the compound that comes with dremmel bits on a bit of old leather belt, which it was a good belt/is a good strop... I am not getting mirrored edges but very sharp. I need more water stones/ higher grit. Have you ever looked at granite counter top polishing pads? They are high quality and long lasting, not the ones on amazon though; but could they be a good option or too poorly shaped for knives?
I've not looked into those but I absolutely will! Thanks for the suggestion and thanks for the support! In terms of which compound to use for stropping I would always suggest 1um as the best general purpose edge refinement compound.
@@stroppystuff641 fascinating. Dont you think the actual distribution matters, as well as the substrate used? Harder substrates leave deeper scratches. But in general I think it's like a 1/10. I find that even using something like a 1.5 to 3 or a 2 to 3 um on wood leaves a finish which is brighter than the highest grit whetstones like say a 10k chosera, 16k sg, or a 12k naniwa SS. Those are stones with sub micron abrasive. Yet 2 or 3 um diamond leaves a brighter finish on steel. IMO after getting experience, I would never suggest anyone doing edges use anything below say a 1 um diamond. It's just not worth anything. The most useful ones imo are in the 3 to 6 um zone. I like to use a 5 or 6 um and a 2 or 3 um. But you can easily make good use of much courser ones as well. I think the classic beginner error is focusing on grits that are too high. But I guess that's a good thing because you have less chance to do less damage that way. Maybe it's better that the courser grits are used by those with more experience.
cant help picturing that a little hand held file would do the trick easier
if you want to add a choil then sure, you really need a diamond one though and you'll probably strip the diamonds off adding a single choil, which is fine but not really worth it imo.
Even on a proper on where diamonds are electroplated into the metal? I can understand on the cheapo ones where its glued on... fall off right away@@stroppystuff641
Where were you 6 months ago when I ruined my squeak😂
😂sorry man! Fortunately it's really hard to ruin a knife. Very likely you can clean it up with some time sharpening on the stones but unless it's a show piece I wouldn't even worry about it 👍
It's not an error and I think you're right not including one.
A sharpening choil is a preference based inclusion, full stop. Categorizing a company's choice not to include this pretty, snag inducing feature as lazy or flawed is, well.... Stupid.
What you're effectively asking for with a sharpening choil is: an indented often rounded area at the base of the blade which will always be dull, useless, and generally snags on fibrous material on full penetrative cuts.
Essentially, having not made a sharpening choil, but an area where the edge bevel simply stops without a rounded indention thereafter (choil) they've given you the same feature without the drawback of an area of the blade which rather (objectionably) has the real and annoying drawback of snagging on many types of material.
I'll state it flatly. Sharpening choils are stupid in practice. They are aesthetic over function.
The chief complaint people have for a knife not having the flaw of a perfectly indented and completely dull/pretty section on the base of your blade that can/does snag on stuff is that without one, after many sharpenings, you wind up with a less pretty recurved/wide beveled section at the base of the blade that doesn't snag on anything.
I disagree...kinda. If the choil is done correctly, which is mild and shallow, AND sharpened, it can act as a single serrated notch that will actually work great and not snag as you suggested. The key is shallow and polished. But the problem is many don't know how to make a useful choil and make them too deep ;)
I hate a choil.
I've never been a fan of choils. Sometimes you may have to cut a rope with a push stroke, and fibers can get caught in the choil. I always just sharpen the unsharpened area down with a cheap extra coarse diamond "stone" and it's not an issue. Internet guys love choils. For those who use their knives for all types of cutting, especially on boats, you want the blade to cut all the way to the Ricasso.
#MONKE