moral dilemmas are strange when the only righteous thing a vampire can do is seek final death as soon as they're embraced, maybe it would work better with mages or changelings
@@yukiminsan I see your point, but perhaps said vampire can still mitigate the damage their existance does in some way? Perhaps they might even put themselves in serice to humans in some way? High humanity vampires (humanity 8+) can be almost saintly, patient, kind to their herds, pleasant to be around (if you consider the Aura of Normalcy bonuses). Some seek Golconda... some might have even attained that mythical state. I guess Humanity rating and compassion plays a big part in this 🤔
@@theoldcountry No no I get it I'm not saying this kind of thing doesn't belong in a Vampire game. I just thought it was funny that of all places to try this you chose the splat where players are basically serial rapists (I don't constantly have this on my mind when performing The Kiss in-game, but since we're going with gritty realism that's what The Kiss is). I just personally think a moral dilemma is more meaningful when everyone involved is at least shades of grey as opposed to shades of black, but good video regardless.
@@yukiminsan Yup, good point. To be fair, there's a few Thallain that scare me a lot more than most Vampire Clans 😳 and I can totally see this antagonist as Nephandus in Mage, major Nephandus behavior right here. Heavens, I hate the Nephandi 😑
@@theoldcountry I feel the Nephandi are too cartoony for something this serious. It would also be more difficult to justify having someone like that be a genuine friend and benefactor to the players. As soon as they find out the guy is an undercover Nephandi would there even still be a moral dilemma left? Fairies in folklore have always been whimsical, unpredictable, inscrutable, and often surprisingly cruel though this sort of thing almost certainly belongs more in the world of Changeling the Lost not the Dreaming because of the general tone. You could also maybe justify this for Werewolf the Forsaken since the werewolves there by my understanding don't exist to cull humanity unlike Apocalypse Garou.
WtA is great for such moral dilemmas :) Conflicting view points are written into the setting both between different Garou tribes as well as between common/innocent "apes" and a duty to protect Gaia. For example: Red Talons VS Children of Gaia in their approach to unwanted settlement. Trusted, loved mentor or a friend might just stand on the opposite site of this conflict. Maybe non of you are actually from RT or CoG tribes, but just are swayed other ways during Moot. There is no common ground - "innocents" are either going to be slaughtered, or wildlife will suffer terribly becouse of their presence.
I loved the content and I want to add a point myself. The prestation culture is more dangerous to the players with lethal plans. An antagonist like this must have made the right calls to survive this far and they should be tightly integrated to the web of boons. Any threat to the antagonist is a threat to the creditors around him. The opposite is also true, which is what makes this type of dilemma and social warfare in VTM an amazing experience
Couldn't agree more and I'm glad you brought that up! Very good point! I sometimes forget each Kindred tends to be a network of not only mortal allies and contacts and retainers, but also other Kindred and all the boons and various such things that bind them together 🥰
Wow, extremely interesting, as always. I personally love that kind of nitty gritty realism in a chronicle, but more to make the fantastic elements feel more real (what would someone actually do with that kind of power in our world today?). I have to admit, the moral dilemmas don't get explored to this degree, but the whole thing has more of a film noir / Max Payne / Batman begins vibe, mixed with the horror and - to be honest - a bit of thoroughly enjoyed power fantasy... I am glad you found the time and energy to make another video. Keep getting better, all the best to you 🖤
@@Kanuui- Glad you enjoyed! 😌 It was quite a difficult episode to make, due to the unpleasant subject matter, and I must say I was worried I'd put people off with this one, so I'm really happy you appreciate 🙏 I still remember the hopeless look on my players' faces, the silence blanketing the entire room, and their almost blank stares nailed to the floor. It was a very emotional experience we had with this antagonist, but ultimately, we will always remember it as... mindblowing
@@theoldcountry I personally think that delving into the darker sides of our nature is strangely comforting as it, too, is a part of us and very much responsible for much of our happiness. For example the research of medicine is mostly the same process as described in the video: torture. I believe that it is important to realize our nature just for the sake of being more compassionate, as we too are monsters that kill and torture. Sweeping it under the rug only makes it so that the suffering is not closely looked at and stays in an unrefined state. An example for that being animal experimentation as animals suffer the same as we do, only that their bodies are much different than ours and thus the results we gain from it are faulty at best. This results in more experiments and thus more torture than would be necessary. I found it quite fascinating that for much the same reason that we torture, the example in the video does the same: for survival. In his case: the curse from which he would starve to death. In our case: the killing of tiny predators within our bodies which would also lead to death. Such roleplaying allows one to reminisce on our dark reflection, our mirror and thus makes for a truly mesmerising experience in my eyes.
First of all, thank you for an amazing video, it has absolutely given me stuff to think about for my upcoming campaign. There are a lot of things here that I am going to take to heart for sure! I am also going to say that I absolutely adore your videos on Clan Tzimisce their culture, the nature of koldunism and so on, the clan is one of my two favourite clans, the other one being the followers of Set which leads to my question/request namely if you could consider doing something similar for them as well digging deeper into the clan culture as a clan of faith and corruption, maybe talk a bit about serpentis and their sorocery and ideas for how to make it more interesting from a gaming and roleplaying perspective digging into its nature , culture and so on?
@@matomi6296 Glad you are enjoying your stay in the Old Country! I'm already working on a Setite Sorcery episode as we speak. I think you're going to love it 🤞
This was truly inspiring. I struggle with designing cities for VtM, and this will definitely change how I design villainous individuals. Lovely content as always! 🦇🦇🦇 If I was forced to deal with this character, (Depending on who I'm playing) I would first try to reason and appeal to ethical convictions, talk about categorical imperatives, self sacrifice, and the real threat of degeneration into wassail. I would attempt to convince the character to seed to my care, to help break this "curse", potentially become a blood filter for them if it's a Ventrue flaw. If they refused this, I would try to kidnap them covertly on neutral ground, as to avoid direct tradition violations, since bonking and kidnapping your peers isn't technically illegal, but I doubt the prince will see it my way. After the capture of my dear friend and ally, I would do my best to break them of this habit, and upon failing, stake them and raiders of the lost ark their torpid ass for the foreseeable future.
This is exactly the sort of scenarios that makes keeping high humanity hard, though there are/should be ways to work around them and you as an ST should always have in mind at least one way to make it possible for the players to do so (to solve it without losing humanity) and make it clear afterwards if you deduct humanity from them. Otherwise you are only playing ST fiat with yourself and making the players observers to their downfall rather than active participants.
That is so true! Took me a while to get the hang of how to handle Humanity loss/ Degeneration rolls, but nowadays I always prompt the players when their characters are in danger of losing Humanity, just like the core book recommends. It does say STs should warn the players when their characters are about to take an action which might cause degeneration. I always do my best not to force players into one choice or another, and definitely not force them into situations that risk permanently removing things from their sheets. The best thing I can do is create scenarios or NPCs to act as obstacles, who just exist in the game world and let the players interact with them naturally, in any way they see fit. I found this really works best - give them the choice, let them make the plan. Often times, when a plan is really good and players are excited about doing one thing or another (being active and involved), they won't even mind losing a Humanity point or two, especially if the scene is intense and shows something meaningful about the protagonist 😌 EDIT: this video presents only a certain interaction path with this kind of antagonist, which, incidentally, is the one my players actually took 😜 But I'm well aware this could go quite a couple of different ways 🤔
@@AlexKrossLore Yeeey, glad you enjoyed! Oh man, do I feel you! Time is in such short supply, year after year... 😔 Hope you're happy and healthy, my dear! 🤗
Antagonist doesn't just means someone who is opposed to the protagonist, it is also one that have the same goals but not in the same faction/team. If one character have opposite view and behavior it can be called antagonist too. I know 4 terms in narration for that kind of stuff : Protagonist : The main character/s Deuteragonist and tritagonist : Important in second and tertiary character/s Helpers (in actantial model) : Characters who help the Protagonist. Antagonist : Same goals but different way to reach them, those goes against the ways of the Protagonist. You could tell that your Non-threatening villains are Foils to the protagonist. Though the fact that they oppose them in ideas and acts make them kinda antagonist at the same time anyway. (A lot of Antagonist are Foils to the protagonist)
@@IsiahTomas Let me share some Romanian wisdom with you: if you listen with your eyes, you will hear nothing interesting. Give them a break and try watching with your ears instead 😁
Hello. I recently bought the Demon the Fallen books but i am struggling to understand what kind of plots fit in a game of "infernal glory" and not just do a vampire game with angels instead of blood suckers. Could you make a video giving some plot ideas, please?
i played with many groups. I think none would mind or try to opose this kind of character. If he does not interfere with their business they wont touch his. Players usually play their characters close to psychopathy so it would cause no conflict or dilema.
@@jackmalin2528 Hey! Good to read you! 🥰 They wouldn't mind? Not even 1 player? Not even at all? 🥺 I mean, sure, the protagonists have to be on the Path of Humanity to care about this, but there's plenty of Paths that are put off by torture as well 🤔 Hmmm... what kind of people do you play with? 😋😐
@@theoldcountry Played with over 300 people. From that maybe and thats a maybe 1 person would want to go out of his way to do something about that. If its a decision "do we work with this guy or not" then sure morals go in the decision making process. But to opose him for no other goals but morals? hell no.
@@jackmalin2528 Well, truth be told, opposing such a character for no serious reason would be detrimental to the characters unlives, for sure. Not many of my players would actively take this person down, though they wouldn't be indiferent to the information revealed and the suffering of others. At least, did your players feel bad about it? Please, tell me they at least felt bad about their inability to do anything, and the existance of a character like this one added to the grotesquery and horror of the setting. Because if players whose characters are on the Path of Humanity (in a Cam game) truly don't care about this, then... I'm scared 😁
If you dont mind me asking here, which book has the best info on how an infernal court is structured? I got both the player guide and storyteller companion and i am still not finding much good stuff with control+F
@@Mandrake9to5 The book that has info on Courts is City of Angels, because Demon is like that - all over the place. Each book has a few key pages yhat change and expand a lot on the setting as presented in the Core Book, even if they do that in a few words. They change... a lot! Honestly, it would have made so much more of a difference to include this info in Core Book, as opposed to having 100+ pages of introductory fiction/story.
@@theoldcountry Ngl, looking at the modular system of factions + tyrant, i think Demons inspired a lot of Requiem and Awakening in terms of societal building
You make friends and you get close and chummy, especially in public. You keep quiet about their feeding habits Spend some time hanging out and broing out... in public and private both. Make a ghoul who is kind of a dick. A bit of an asshole that nobody will miss. You have your ghoul retainer drop dime to the nearest hunter. You drop dime, letting the hunters know through the asshole ghoul EVERYTHING. Every bit of information you may have gathered. Every retainer and resource and ghoul you know about. Ensure you're out of town, on distant business... Checking out assets elsewhere, visiting a chantry across country, going on pilgrimage, etc. Let nature take its course.
Call me clanist all you want but when you were describing this evil antagonist, the only clan I can see them being is a Toreador, it could possibly be a Malk I guess? But naw that's a Toreador making excuses lol. I will always stand by the take that the true sadists among the Kindred aren't really the Tzimisce, its the Toreador, one of thier nick names is degenerate for a reason after all. The npc you described is a perfect example of what a low humanity Toreador in the CAM, that's not even getting into antitribu or even the Volgirre. Sorry for the anti Torrie rant but the clan can get really, really, dark due to thier closeness to humanity and thus very human kinds of evil.
@@smuggrog9821 I feel you! Also, not necessarily clanist, I think. My initial choices were either Toreador or Ventrue, because whenever I hear these 2 clan names I think: that's someone rich and influential who always gets what they want. Dominate... Presence... they have all the social advantages here 🤔 And yes, a Toreador's cruelty won't necessarily be physical torture, but they could hurt you emotionally to the point that you decide to greet the sun. It's... scary 😶
@@theoldcountry Oh god I completely forgot about the Ventrue and thier feeding preferences, cause if we are going with the angle that all the abhorrent actions being committed by this npc is done for more of a need then a desire, then torture victims could potentially be a Ventrue's feeding preference, damn that is so messed up...
moral dilemmas are strange when the only righteous thing a vampire can do is seek final death as soon as they're embraced, maybe it would work better with mages or changelings
@@yukiminsan I see your point, but perhaps said vampire can still mitigate the damage their existance does in some way? Perhaps they might even put themselves in serice to humans in some way? High humanity vampires (humanity 8+) can be almost saintly, patient, kind to their herds, pleasant to be around (if you consider the Aura of Normalcy bonuses). Some seek Golconda... some might have even attained that mythical state.
I guess Humanity rating and compassion plays a big part in this 🤔
@@theoldcountry No no I get it I'm not saying this kind of thing doesn't belong in a Vampire game. I just thought it was funny that of all places to try this you chose the splat where players are basically serial rapists (I don't constantly have this on my mind when performing The Kiss in-game, but since we're going with gritty realism that's what The Kiss is). I just personally think a moral dilemma is more meaningful when everyone involved is at least shades of grey as opposed to shades of black, but good video regardless.
@@yukiminsan Yup, good point. To be fair, there's a few Thallain that scare me a lot more than most Vampire Clans 😳 and I can totally see this antagonist as Nephandus in Mage, major Nephandus behavior right here. Heavens, I hate the Nephandi 😑
@@theoldcountry I feel the Nephandi are too cartoony for something this serious. It would also be more difficult to justify having someone like that be a genuine friend and benefactor to the players. As soon as they find out the guy is an undercover Nephandi would there even still be a moral dilemma left? Fairies in folklore have always been whimsical, unpredictable, inscrutable, and often surprisingly cruel though this sort of thing almost certainly belongs more in the world of Changeling the Lost not the Dreaming because of the general tone. You could also maybe justify this for Werewolf the Forsaken since the werewolves there by my understanding don't exist to cull humanity unlike Apocalypse Garou.
WtA is great for such moral dilemmas :)
Conflicting view points are written into the setting both between different Garou tribes as well as between common/innocent "apes" and a duty to protect Gaia. For example:
Red Talons VS Children of Gaia in their approach to unwanted settlement. Trusted, loved mentor or a friend might just stand on the opposite site of this conflict. Maybe non of you are actually from RT or CoG tribes, but just are swayed other ways during Moot. There is no common ground - "innocents" are either going to be slaughtered, or wildlife will suffer terribly becouse of their presence.
Once again we're fortunate with your videos blessing our games with nuance and amazing ideas
I'm happy you say that 🥰 Not everyone would agree with you, but I'm happy you liked this episode 😌
I loved the content and I want to add a point myself.
The prestation culture is more dangerous to the players with lethal plans.
An antagonist like this must have made the right calls to survive this far and they should be tightly integrated to the web of boons.
Any threat to the antagonist is a threat to the creditors around him.
The opposite is also true, which is what makes this type of dilemma and social warfare in VTM an amazing experience
Couldn't agree more and I'm glad you brought that up! Very good point! I sometimes forget each Kindred tends to be a network of not only mortal allies and contacts and retainers, but also other Kindred and all the boons and various such things that bind them together 🥰
2nd time i listen to this video and it's frankly a great one ! I cannot emphase enough the fact your work is great !
I'm very happy you like it 🥳
Wow, extremely interesting, as always.
I personally love that kind of nitty gritty realism in a chronicle, but more to make the fantastic elements feel more real (what would someone actually do with that kind of power in our world today?).
I have to admit, the moral dilemmas don't get explored to this degree, but the whole thing has more of a film noir / Max Payne / Batman begins vibe, mixed with the horror and - to be honest - a bit of thoroughly enjoyed power fantasy...
I am glad you found the time and energy to make another video.
Keep getting better, all the best to you 🖤
Thank you kindly! Glad you enjoyed 😉
A brilliant video detailing a complex topic to roleplay. Loved every part of it.
@@Kanuui- Glad you enjoyed! 😌 It was quite a difficult episode to make, due to the unpleasant subject matter, and I must say I was worried I'd put people off with this one, so I'm really happy you appreciate 🙏
I still remember the hopeless look on my players' faces, the silence blanketing the entire room, and their almost blank stares nailed to the floor. It was a very emotional experience we had with this antagonist, but ultimately, we will always remember it as... mindblowing
@@theoldcountry I personally think that delving into the darker sides of our nature is strangely comforting as it, too, is a part of us and very much responsible for much of our happiness. For example the research of medicine is mostly the same process as described in the video: torture.
I believe that it is important to realize our nature just for the sake of being more compassionate, as we too are monsters that kill and torture. Sweeping it under the rug only makes it so that the suffering is not closely looked at and stays in an unrefined state.
An example for that being animal experimentation as animals suffer the same as we do, only that their bodies are much different than ours and thus the results we gain from it are faulty at best. This results in more experiments and thus more torture than would be necessary.
I found it quite fascinating that for much the same reason that we torture, the example in the video does the same: for survival. In his case: the curse from which he would starve to death. In our case: the killing of tiny predators within our bodies which would also lead to death. Such roleplaying allows one to reminisce on our dark reflection, our mirror and thus makes for a truly mesmerising experience in my eyes.
First of all, thank you for an amazing video, it has absolutely given me stuff to think about for my upcoming campaign. There are a lot of things here that I am going to take to heart for sure! I am also going to say that I absolutely adore your videos on Clan Tzimisce their culture, the nature of koldunism and so on, the clan is one of my two favourite clans, the other one being the followers of Set which leads to my question/request namely if you could consider doing something similar for them as well digging deeper into the clan culture as a clan of faith and corruption, maybe talk a bit about serpentis and their sorocery and ideas for how to make it more interesting from a gaming and roleplaying perspective digging into its nature , culture and so on?
@@matomi6296 Glad you are enjoying your stay in the Old Country! I'm already working on a Setite Sorcery episode as we speak. I think you're going to love it 🤞
love these, i'm cursed to read the books but never actually play rpg's but this is all great fuel for the imagination
Interesting character type and moral dilemma!
I'm happy you found it interesting 😉
This was truly inspiring. I struggle with designing cities for VtM, and this will definitely change how I design villainous individuals. Lovely content as always! 🦇🦇🦇
If I was forced to deal with this character, (Depending on who I'm playing) I would first try to reason and appeal to ethical convictions, talk about categorical imperatives, self sacrifice, and the real threat of degeneration into wassail.
I would attempt to convince the character to seed to my care, to help break this "curse", potentially become a blood filter for them if it's a Ventrue flaw. If they refused this, I would try to kidnap them covertly on neutral ground, as to avoid direct tradition violations, since bonking and kidnapping your peers isn't technically illegal, but I doubt the prince will see it my way. After the capture of my dear friend and ally, I would do my best to break them of this habit, and upon failing, stake them and raiders of the lost ark their torpid ass for the foreseeable future.
Ahhh Such a wanted video !! ANd the theme is great !!
@@Morkeoth Mwhahahaha! Glad you enjoyed 😉
This is exactly the sort of scenarios that makes keeping high humanity hard, though there are/should be ways to work around them and you as an ST should always have in mind at least one way to make it possible for the players to do so (to solve it without losing humanity) and make it clear afterwards if you deduct humanity from them. Otherwise you are only playing ST fiat with yourself and making the players observers to their downfall rather than active participants.
That is so true! Took me a while to get the hang of how to handle Humanity loss/ Degeneration rolls, but nowadays I always prompt the players when their characters are in danger of losing Humanity, just like the core book recommends. It does say STs should warn the players when their characters are about to take an action which might cause degeneration.
I always do my best not to force players into one choice or another, and definitely not force them into situations that risk permanently removing things from their sheets. The best thing I can do is create scenarios or NPCs to act as obstacles, who just exist in the game world and let the players interact with them naturally, in any way they see fit. I found this really works best - give them the choice, let them make the plan. Often times, when a plan is really good and players are excited about doing one thing or another (being active and involved), they won't even mind losing a Humanity point or two, especially if the scene is intense and shows something meaningful about the protagonist 😌
EDIT: this video presents only a certain interaction path with this kind of antagonist, which, incidentally, is the one my players actually took 😜 But I'm well aware this could go quite a couple of different ways 🤔
Welcome back!😸
@@infernal_tulip Good to be here 🥰
Great work again, neighbor! Sadly my work takes so much time and vitae from me, i didn't made any new vids of lately.
@@AlexKrossLore Yeeey, glad you enjoyed! Oh man, do I feel you! Time is in such short supply, year after year... 😔
Hope you're happy and healthy, my dear! 🤗
Antagonist doesn't just means someone who is opposed to the protagonist, it is also one that have the same goals but not in the same faction/team.
If one character have opposite view and behavior it can be called antagonist too.
I know 4 terms in narration for that kind of stuff :
Protagonist : The main character/s
Deuteragonist and tritagonist : Important in second and tertiary character/s
Helpers (in actantial model) : Characters who help the Protagonist.
Antagonist : Same goals but different way to reach them, those goes against the ways of the Protagonist.
You could tell that your Non-threatening villains are Foils to the protagonist. Though the fact that they oppose them in ideas and acts make them kinda antagonist at the same time anyway.
(A lot of Antagonist are Foils to the protagonist)
@@Morkeoth Nice! Thank you for sharing that, I learned something new today 🤩
... oh. The visuals distracted me for a sec. I get it. It's about off angle squares! I'm hip.
@@IsiahTomas Let me share some Romanian wisdom with you: if you listen with your eyes, you will hear nothing interesting. Give them a break and try watching with your ears instead 😁
Hello. I recently bought the Demon the Fallen books but i am struggling to understand what kind of plots fit in a game of "infernal glory" and not just do a vampire game with angels instead of blood suckers.
Could you make a video giving some plot ideas, please?
@@Mandrake9to5 Sure thing! 🥰
@@theoldcountry
Many thanks
i played with many groups. I think none would mind or try to opose this kind of character. If he does not interfere with their business they wont touch his. Players usually play their characters close to psychopathy so it would cause no conflict or dilema.
@@jackmalin2528 Hey! Good to read you! 🥰
They wouldn't mind? Not even 1 player? Not even at all? 🥺 I mean, sure, the protagonists have to be on the Path of Humanity to care about this, but there's plenty of Paths that are put off by torture as well 🤔
Hmmm... what kind of people do you play with? 😋😐
@@theoldcountry Played with over 300 people. From that maybe and thats a maybe 1 person would want to go out of his way to do something about that.
If its a decision "do we work with this guy or not" then sure morals go in the decision making process. But to opose him for no other goals but morals? hell no.
@@jackmalin2528 Well, truth be told, opposing such a character for no serious reason would be detrimental to the characters unlives, for sure. Not many of my players would actively take this person down, though they wouldn't be indiferent to the information revealed and the suffering of others. At least, did your players feel bad about it? Please, tell me they at least felt bad about their inability to do anything, and the existance of a character like this one added to the grotesquery and horror of the setting. Because if players whose characters are on the Path of Humanity (in a Cam game) truly don't care about this, then... I'm scared 😁
@@theoldcountry not really. One started selling him people that went to his hands (rescues, lesser enemies, hunters etc.
If you dont mind me asking here, which book has the best info on how an infernal court is structured?
I got both the player guide and storyteller companion and i am still not finding much good stuff with control+F
@@Mandrake9to5 The book that has info on Courts is City of Angels, because Demon is like that - all over the place. Each book has a few key pages yhat change and expand a lot on the setting as presented in the Core Book, even if they do that in a few words. They change... a lot! Honestly, it would have made so much more of a difference to include this info in Core Book, as opposed to having 100+ pages of introductory fiction/story.
@@theoldcountry
Ngl, looking at the modular system of factions + tyrant, i think Demons inspired a lot of Requiem and Awakening in terms of societal building
You make friends and you get close and chummy, especially in public. You keep quiet about their feeding habits Spend some time hanging out and broing out... in public and private both.
Make a ghoul who is kind of a dick. A bit of an asshole that nobody will miss.
You have your ghoul retainer drop dime to the nearest hunter.
You drop dime, letting the hunters know through the asshole ghoul EVERYTHING. Every bit of information you may have gathered. Every retainer and resource and ghoul you know about. Ensure you're out of town, on distant business... Checking out assets elsewhere, visiting a chantry across country, going on pilgrimage, etc.
Let nature take its course.
@@dirtbagwizardry4109 A fine plan! I dig it 😎
@@theoldcountry You have to think outside the box with these dicks.
Primus !!
Call me clanist all you want but when you were describing this evil antagonist, the only clan I can see them being is a Toreador, it could possibly be a Malk I guess? But naw that's a Toreador making excuses lol. I will always stand by the take that the true sadists among the Kindred aren't really the Tzimisce, its the Toreador, one of thier nick names is degenerate for a reason after all. The npc you described is a perfect example of what a low humanity Toreador in the CAM, that's not even getting into antitribu or even the Volgirre. Sorry for the anti Torrie rant but the clan can get really, really, dark due to thier closeness to humanity and thus very human kinds of evil.
@@smuggrog9821 I feel you! Also, not necessarily clanist, I think. My initial choices were either Toreador or Ventrue, because whenever I hear these 2 clan names I think: that's someone rich and influential who always gets what they want. Dominate... Presence... they have all the social advantages here 🤔 And yes, a Toreador's cruelty won't necessarily be physical torture, but they could hurt you emotionally to the point that you decide to greet the sun. It's... scary 😶
@@theoldcountry Oh god I completely forgot about the Ventrue and thier feeding preferences, cause if we are going with the angle that all the abhorrent actions being committed by this npc is done for more of a need then a desire, then torture victims could potentially be a Ventrue's feeding preference, damn that is so messed up...