Sent a picture of my hand made bowie knife collection to the museum by e-mail. I am a very low tech guy so I hope I did it correctly. It seems as if the search for the information on a item can be very interesting as well as rewarding👍
The unknown musket looks to me like the Prussian m1809 percussion conversion. They were imported by the union in the civil war and sold off as surplus in 1865.
Thank you! I will run that to ground next week. I'm currently cataloging firearms at the Old West Museum here in Cheyenne, so am away from research tools until Wednesday. Shape of the lock plate does look similar. I need to have the gun in hand and look at some Prussian images
On the unknown musket , a wild guess . The confederate states used a LOT of recycled parts to build any weapons they could . That front barrel band resembles an 1842 69 cal musket . Lock is very different from military styles but I have seen similar on a few old johny reb pieces . ? ? Really enjoy your detailed research . Thank you. M . B .
The fact there are no markings and unidentifiable parts lends credence to your option. I think it is a good theory, not a wild guess. Certainly the Confederacy was desperate for weapons and may have put this together from parts of different muskets. Thanks for your comment. I hope we figure this out.
That’s actually a S&W 38 Single Action 2nd change. The “Baby Russian” was a 38 Single Action 1st model that had an extended barrel shroud like the model 3 Russian had.
Lots of bad information on the internet, but a picture can speak volumes. I was taught to never trust just one source, always get at least three, if I can.
Back action locks may not have been as popular early on but they were later, i believe. Ive even seen examples of Henry Leman rifles with backaction locks and many shotguns and rifles coming out of New York?
I have a question about a rifled gun, like a Hawken. If you are in a gun fight, how do you load quickly? Do just drop the powder and ball without a patch and hold the barrel elevated? I have a traditional Hawkin that I use for hunting for 40 years. Does fine. Thanks for your help.
You have a lot more hands on experience with percussion muzzle loading firearms than I do. You probably know that the Minie' hollow-based conical bullet was a game changer in the Civil War. It could be seated on the powder charge much easier than a patched ball and was much more accurate than the unrifled muskets. When fired, the base expanded to engage the rifling and made the rifled musket a threat out to 200-300 yards. But I don't know what procedures were followed by Hawken users in a hot fight. Have you tried yours without a patch? Let me know.
@@outdoorlife5396 Yeah, I'm blessed to have an interesting job that keeps me involved and continues to educate me. I enjoy learning about different firearms and interacting with people like you. Thanks for your interest in my work.
We have one on exhibit in the Museum. Outside my area of knowledge. I will talk to staff and see what we can do. Will be some time because we have new episodes in the queue. We also have one of the few remaining Yellowstone wagons that were used to transport tourists around the Park before the transition to motorized buses in about 1916.
Markings are mostly obliterated on my mystery gun. The images I see of the Harper's Ferry M1842 show the snail that holds the nipple sitting almost flush with the top of the lock plate. My musket has about half of the snail body inlaid below the top of the lock plate. Also the profile of the hammer appears different with the 1842 spur more upright. I don't see a rib on the 1842 hammer. The front muzzle band is similar. I need to do more research. Lots of helpful suggestions here! Thanks for your comment. Possible this is a Frankenstein gun assembled from parts?
The second musket is a 1809 Prussian. Several thousand muskets converted from flintlock were imported by the United States during the War of the Rebellion. These came from several armories such as Suhl, and Potsdam.
You mean, "The War for the Southern Confederacy". Just kidding, that was part of the exchange between the Doctor and the ex-Confederate gambler in the 1939 movie, 'Stagecoach', staring John Wayne.
The rusty lock could be French Belgian or Saxon. Several European rifles, muskets, and rifle muskets imported by the United States during the War of the Rebellion all used this style of lock. The Austrian Lorenz may have been used by the United States military. Many of the later Austrian contract Lorenzes came with that style of lock and fixed sight. The rebels also used Lorenzes with the tangent sight. If the barrel is still unmolested, a bore diameter could tell who used it. The rebels kept their at .54 caliber, the USA bored many of their Austrians out to .58 caliber. However the US still had .54 Austrians.
Here's the museum's mission statement. The museum’s functions are guided by state statute to collect, preserve, and interpret a diverse range of objects, including history, art, anthropology, and natural history. These collections represent Wyoming’s heritage, from prehistory to the present day. The focus is on artifacts with a Wyoming connection. Exceptions have been made in the past for unique objects or to keep a private collection intact after donation. Items proposed for donation are reviewed by staff, who make recommendations to an oversight committee for the larger agency. If approved at all levels, the donation accepted.
@@evangreen9430 ok these would possibly be due to the fact that they were built by a GRRW gunsmith that worked at the plant that Doc White started back in the 70’s not sure but I would think they would accept them but maybe we can find out ahead of my passing so I can leave instructions to donate but under no circumstances would I want them sold off ! Thanks !
At the moment I'm leaning towards an Austrian Model 1842 musket with what appears to be a Leman conversion to percussion. What you have very closely resembles what appears in Firearms from Europe by Whisker, Yantz, and Hartzler (2nd edition, description on pages 75-76, photos on page 82).
I'm surprised that French musket lock was not identified at first glance. As soon as it was put on camera, I knew just what it was. During the latter part of the Franco-Prussian war, numbers of these muzzle loading French percussion muskets were converted to breech loaders, (with a breach block resembling a Snider), and afterward sold to Belgian gun smiths as surplus. The Belgians converted them to 12ga shotguns, and sold them on the American market, (for as little as $3.00). Most have "Zulu" stamped on the barrels, and can be found at gun shows to this day. And NO, they were NOT used in the British/Zulu wars, (by either side).
I want to express my appreciation for all those who have made suggestions about the identity of our mystery musket. Response to some of those ideas are below. I don't intend to be argumentative, just sharing what I'm seeing from some online searches. Thanks again to everyone for your help.
I will check on that possibility. Thank you for the suggestion. At first glance, the front barrel band resembles your Lehman but the one in the video has a slightly different shaped cut and appears to be longer. It does have the two bands with the front sight on the band closest to the muzzle. I will do more research when I again have access to my research tools.
@@flatusinteruptus I will do that. There are conversions/contract firearms that I was unaware of until helpful input from people like you. I appreciate your support of my work and am grateful for your assistance.
@@evangreen3209 my pleasure , it could be what I call a "mutt" , a battle field drop that was picked up and repaired with whatever parts were available, I will keep researching and let you know if I find anything else.
Sent a picture of my hand made bowie knife collection to the museum by e-mail. I am a very low tech guy so I hope I did it correctly. It seems as if the search for the information on a item can be very interesting as well as rewarding👍
The unknown musket looks to me like the Prussian m1809 percussion conversion. They were imported by the union in the civil war and sold off as surplus in 1865.
Thank you! I will run that to ground next week. I'm currently cataloging firearms at the Old West Museum here in Cheyenne, so am away from research tools until Wednesday. Shape of the lock plate does look similar. I need to have the gun in hand and look at some Prussian images
VERY enlightening and enjoyable, Evan! 👍
Thanks, Noah. Did I tell you I saw your comment on the Firearms as Art presentation?
@@evangreen3209 You did Evan. Your RUclips videos are appreciated wherever they originate from. 👍
On the unknown musket , a wild guess . The confederate states used a LOT of recycled parts to build any weapons they could . That front barrel band resembles an 1842 69 cal musket . Lock is very different from military styles but I have seen similar on a few old johny reb pieces . ? ? Really enjoy your detailed research . Thank you. M . B .
The fact there are no markings and unidentifiable parts lends credence to your option. I think it is a good theory, not a wild guess. Certainly the Confederacy was desperate for weapons and may have put this together from parts of different muskets. Thanks for your comment. I hope we figure this out.
That’s actually a S&W 38 Single Action 2nd change. The “Baby Russian” was a 38 Single Action 1st model that had an extended barrel shroud like the model 3 Russian had.
Lots of bad information on the internet, but a picture can speak volumes. I was taught to never trust just one source, always get at least three, if I can.
Back action locks may not have been as popular early on but they were later, i believe. Ive even seen examples of Henry Leman rifles with backaction locks and many shotguns and rifles coming out of New York?
I have a question about a rifled gun, like a Hawken. If you are in a gun fight, how do you load quickly? Do just drop the powder and ball without a patch and hold the barrel elevated? I have a traditional Hawkin that I use for hunting for 40 years. Does fine. Thanks for your help.
You have a lot more hands on experience with percussion muzzle loading firearms than I do. You probably know that the Minie' hollow-based conical bullet was a game changer in the Civil War. It could be seated on the powder charge much easier than a patched ball and was much more accurate than the unrifled muskets. When fired, the base expanded to engage the rifling and made the rifled musket a threat out to 200-300 yards. But I don't know what procedures were followed by Hawken users in a hot fight. Have you tried yours without a patch? Let me know.
@@evangreen3209But I'm retired too, you got a COOL JOB.
@@outdoorlife5396 Yeah, I'm blessed to have an interesting job that keeps me involved and continues to educate me. I enjoy learning about different firearms and interacting with people like you. Thanks for your interest in my work.
I would love an episode on a classic sheep wagon. Please!
We have one on exhibit in the Museum. Outside my area of knowledge. I will talk to staff and see what we can do. Will be some time because we have new episodes in the queue. We also have one of the few remaining Yellowstone wagons that were used to transport tourists around the Park before the transition to motorized buses in about 1916.
I'm sure the markings don't bear this out. But that very much looks to me like the harper's Ferry Model 1842
I think you are right! 👍👍
Markings are mostly obliterated on my mystery gun. The images I see of the Harper's Ferry M1842 show the snail that holds the nipple sitting almost flush with the top of the lock plate. My musket has about half of the snail body inlaid below the top of the lock plate. Also the profile of the hammer appears different with the 1842 spur more upright. I don't see a rib on the 1842 hammer. The front muzzle band is similar. I need to do more research. Lots of helpful suggestions here! Thanks for your comment. Possible this is a Frankenstein gun assembled from parts?
The second musket is a 1809 Prussian. Several thousand muskets converted from flintlock were imported by the United States during the War of the Rebellion. These came from several armories such as Suhl, and Potsdam.
You mean, "The War for the Southern Confederacy". Just kidding, that was part of the exchange between the Doctor and the ex-Confederate gambler in the 1939 movie, 'Stagecoach', staring John Wayne.
The rusty lock could be French Belgian or Saxon. Several European rifles, muskets, and rifle muskets imported by the United States during the War of the Rebellion all used this style of lock.
The Austrian Lorenz may have been used by the United States military. Many of the later Austrian contract Lorenzes came with that style of lock and fixed sight. The rebels also used Lorenzes with the tangent sight. If the barrel is still unmolested, a bore diameter could tell who used it. The rebels kept their at .54 caliber, the USA bored many of their Austrians out to .58 caliber. However the US still had .54 Austrians.
Hello, does the museum accept more modern built guns like custom built hawkens and trapper pistol when someone passes away ?
Here's the museum's mission statement. The museum’s functions are guided by state statute to collect, preserve, and interpret a diverse range of objects, including history, art, anthropology, and natural history. These collections represent Wyoming’s heritage, from prehistory to the present day. The focus is on artifacts with a Wyoming connection. Exceptions have been made in the past for unique objects or to keep a private collection intact after donation. Items proposed for donation are reviewed by staff, who make recommendations to an oversight committee for the larger agency. If approved at all levels, the donation accepted.
@@evangreen9430 ok these would possibly be due to the fact that they were built by a GRRW gunsmith that worked at the plant that Doc White started back in the 70’s not sure but I would think they would accept them but maybe we can find out ahead of my passing so I can leave instructions to donate but under no circumstances would I want them sold off !
Thanks !
The contract musket appears to have the model-1842 musket front sight/front barrel band design.
At the moment I'm leaning towards an Austrian Model 1842 musket with what appears to be a Leman conversion to percussion. What you have very closely resembles what appears in Firearms from Europe by Whisker, Yantz, and Hartzler (2nd edition, description on pages 75-76, photos on page 82).
Drummer boy rifle. Kinda. Small arms by Rupert Matthews page 88. It has some of these features.
As for the second musket: the front barrel band has some resemblance to an Austrian A 1798/99 model infantry converted to percussion.
Thank you! Commenters like you have given me some new avenues to research. I promise to get back here if I can make an identification.
I'm surprised that French musket lock was not identified at first glance. As soon as it was put on camera, I knew just what it was. During the latter part of the Franco-Prussian war, numbers of these muzzle loading French percussion muskets were converted to breech loaders, (with a breach block resembling a Snider), and afterward sold to Belgian gun smiths as surplus. The Belgians converted them to 12ga shotguns, and sold them on the American market, (for as little as $3.00). Most have "Zulu" stamped on the barrels, and can be found at gun shows to this day. And NO, they were NOT used in the British/Zulu wars, (by either side).
I want to express my appreciation for all those who have made suggestions about the identity of our mystery musket. Response to some of those ideas are below. I don't intend to be argumentative, just sharing what I'm seeing from some online searches. Thanks again to everyone for your help.
Looks like a prussian musket. The ones I've seen had brass bands.
Who made the black powder and ball during the Civil War?
Both the Union and the Confederates had Ordnance Departments producing ammunition for their armies.
many CSA troops profred muskets without rear sights, could have been a home gunsmith from the time?
1843 Lehman conversion by Nippes of Mill creek PA.
I will check on that possibility. Thank you for the suggestion. At first glance, the front barrel band resembles your Lehman but the one in the video has a slightly different shaped cut and appears to be longer. It does have the two bands with the front sight on the band closest to the muzzle. I will do more research when I again have access to my research tools.
Also , take a look at Bolster conversions , the hammer appears to be more like the one you have there
@@flatusinteruptus I will do that. There are conversions/contract firearms that I was unaware of until helpful input from people like you. I appreciate your support of my work and am grateful for your assistance.
@@evangreen3209 my pleasure , it could be what I call a "mutt" , a battle field drop that was picked up and repaired with whatever parts were available, I will keep researching and let you know if I find anything else.
@@flatusinteruptus Thanks! I appreciate your interest and support.
I like you for help when you don’t know