I'm a composer who has studied ancient music for over 25 years. The natural tendency of the modes is that they have a tendency to modulate from one mode to another IF USED PROPERLY. Josquin Desprez in his L'homme Arme Super Voce Musicalis Mass uses the old system of modes with them naturally modulating (being unstable) as you can hear by listening to this mass. In his later mass L'homme Arme Sexti Toni he tried to keep to one mode (largely the Ionian Mode) thwarting it from modulating, which was difficult to do at that time when people still had the old modes and their modulating quality in their ears. So the Ionian Mode was at one time just as unstable (wanting to modulate) as the other modes. Now I used the phrase IF USED PROPERLY in relationship to using the modes. We moderns do not know how to use the ancient modes properly. We always use a drone and then improvise over that drone, and we call it modal music, when in reality the ancients had systems in which each note had a specific harmony attached to it. I have discovered this in my long study of ancient music. As you change register and go higher or lower, the same melody note will have a different harmony assigned to it. So a specific note's harmony changes with range change. So say you are in the Dorian mode and you go downwards from the bottom tonic, you will naturally modulate to another specific mode. Same thing if you go upwards past the 5th note of the Dorian mode, you will modulate to another mode. So to just improvise over a tonic drone in a mode does not bring you the true qualities of the ancient modes and the harmony assigned to each note going through the different registers.
Someone told me about this today and now my mind is blown ! Actually makes sense to base everything from Lydian then all other scales will be flattening notes from there 💡
Thank you for that reply! I have since learned this as well. The principle though, of competing points of tonal gravity attraction remains - it's the unique gravitational dynamics of each mode which gives each mode it's unique character.
@@soojinl10 The Circle of Fifths proves his point no matter how you interpret the meaning of "dia". Since there's ample evidence for George's theories, I would think that it was a misinterpretation rather than a deliberate twisting.
Hey from Portugal! Very good video!!! I guess the fourth on the ionian resolves up cause it has the same relation that the fifth, but inverted... It's like a 5 ->1 but instead of the 1 it's the 8. Do you agree?? Anyways, awesome video!!! keep it up
Yes, the octave (8) has the same resolving quality as the tonic (1) - this similarity of pitches that are multiples of one octave is referred to as "pitch class". But if you're saying that the fourth (fa) in the scale resolves up to the root (do'), I would disagree. When you spend some time with this, you'll find that each interval has its unique gravitational signature or point of resolution. The fifth always resolves to the lower note, while the fourth resolves to the upper note. In that case, we can say that the 5th degree "so" resolves down to the tonic "do" (1), which is the interval of a 5th, and that it also resolves up to the octave above the tonic (8, or do'), which is the interval of a 4th. Does that make sense?
Sorry, but the lydian scale resolves into G, not into C. You can play a whole composition in C lydian, without once having a G chord in it, and then at the end resolve to G and it will sound perfect. I'm very interested in the lydian chromatic concept, but saying that lydian mode has a stronger tonal function that ionian mode (the major scale) is simply not correct.
Once you resolve the tone set C G D A E B F# to a G, it is a G major scale, not a Lydian scale. It may sound good to your ears because we are so accustomed to and love the major scale and why not? It's an amazing and enduring scale that has been utilized to produce our most beloved music for the past 400+ years. The Circle of Fifths is a natural phenomenon. When your building a house, you must take into account the laws of nature - gravity, physics, materials, etc. - but the architect, engineer, and builder work together with these laws to create an infinite variety of structures. So when we're creating with sound, we work with the natural laws of sound in forming our musical structures, whether we are aware of them or not. One of the ways we create within the natural laws of sound is to shift the tonic of a given set of notes in a scale. In doing so, we musically place our attention on different aspects of the "tonal gravity field" created by that set of pitches. The Lydian scale's "function" is not "stronger" or "better" than the major scale - just different. It fact, we're really not talking about "functions" here at all, just the natural principles of sound. Feel free to read more here: The Lydian Scale: Seeking the Ultimate Mysteries of Music: www.musical-u.com/learn/lydian-scale-seeking-ultimate-mysteries-music/
@@andrewbishko8637 All true except one thing. The ionian mode has a much stronger tonal center than the lydian mode. That's why the ionian mode became the major scale, and lydian mode didn't.
@@dragmio the Lydian scale can be seen as a "going nowhere" scale - its tonal gravity field is more static, more peaceful, with all intervals resolving to the tonic. Whereas the displacement of the tonic to the 5th of the Lydian mode creates the constant driving forward in major scale music - the major scale is restless, always seeking to resolve, while lydian music might be considered more "boring" and floaty. So there is a perception of "strength" in the major scale because it has this energy, this drive. This drive aptly expresses the restless spirit of Western civilization, with high value on growth and expansion, which emerged in full force at the same epoc as the major scale. Also important to remember that the ionian mode has only been the major scale in western music for the past few hundred years, while there have been many other popular scales in the millions of years of human music making that came before, during and after.
I'm a composer who has studied ancient music for over 25 years. The natural tendency of the modes is that they have a tendency to modulate from one mode to another IF USED PROPERLY. Josquin Desprez in his L'homme Arme Super Voce Musicalis Mass uses the old system of modes with them naturally modulating (being unstable) as you can hear by listening to this mass. In his later mass L'homme Arme Sexti Toni he tried to keep to one mode (largely the Ionian Mode) thwarting it from modulating, which was difficult to do at that time when people still had the old modes and their modulating quality in their ears. So the Ionian Mode was at one time just as unstable (wanting to modulate) as the other modes. Now I used the phrase IF USED PROPERLY in relationship to using the modes. We moderns do not know how to use the ancient modes properly. We always use a drone and then improvise over that drone, and we call it modal music, when in reality the ancients had systems in which each note had a specific harmony attached to it. I have discovered this in my long study of ancient music. As you change register and go higher or lower, the same melody note will have a different harmony assigned to it. So a specific note's harmony changes with range change. So say you are in the Dorian mode and you go downwards from the bottom tonic, you will naturally modulate to another specific mode. Same thing if you go upwards past the 5th note of the Dorian mode, you will modulate to another mode. So to just improvise over a tonic drone in a mode does not bring you the true qualities of the ancient modes and the harmony assigned to each note going through the different registers.
Someone told me about this today and now my mind is blown ! Actually makes sense to base everything from Lydian then all other scales will be flattening notes from there 💡
A small correction. Diatonic does not mean “two tonics”. It comes from “dia” which means “through or by way of” and “tonos” which means “tone”
I was just about to point that out as well
Dia is actually derived from Di (Greek) which is more of a prefix. Y’all are both right but I’m this context he is right.
Thank you for that reply! I have since learned this as well. The principle though, of competing points of tonal gravity attraction remains - it's the unique gravitational dynamics of each mode which gives each mode it's unique character.
yeah george russell twisted the meaning to prove his point
@@soojinl10 The Circle of Fifths proves his point no matter how you interpret the meaning of "dia". Since there's ample evidence for George's theories, I would think that it was a misinterpretation rather than a deliberate twisting.
still love it!!
Hey from Portugal!
Very good video!!! I guess the fourth on the ionian resolves up cause it has the same relation that the fifth, but inverted... It's like a 5 ->1 but instead of the 1 it's the 8. Do you agree?? Anyways, awesome video!!! keep it up
Yes, the octave (8) has the same resolving quality as the tonic (1) - this similarity of pitches that are multiples of one octave is referred to as "pitch class". But if you're saying that the fourth (fa) in the scale resolves up to the root (do'), I would disagree. When you spend some time with this, you'll find that each interval has its unique gravitational signature or point of resolution. The fifth always resolves to the lower note, while the fourth resolves to the upper note. In that case, we can say that the 5th degree "so" resolves down to the tonic "do" (1), which is the interval of a 5th, and that it also resolves up to the octave above the tonic (8, or do'), which is the interval of a 4th. Does that make sense?
I thought the lydian "scale" was just the mixolydian "mode" C lydian = C mixolydian...
Lydian is the fourth mode of the major (Ionian mode) scale, and mixolydian is the fifth mode of the major scale.
Sorry, but the lydian scale resolves into G, not into C. You can play a whole composition in C lydian, without once having a G chord in it, and then at the end resolve to G and it will sound perfect. I'm very interested in the lydian chromatic concept, but saying that lydian mode has a stronger tonal function that ionian mode (the major scale) is simply not correct.
Once you resolve the tone set C G D A E B F# to a G, it is a G major scale, not a Lydian scale. It may sound good to your ears because we are so accustomed to and love the major scale and why not? It's an amazing and enduring scale that has been utilized to produce our most beloved music for the past 400+ years.
The Circle of Fifths is a natural phenomenon. When your building a house, you must take into account the laws of nature - gravity, physics, materials, etc. - but the architect, engineer, and builder work together with these laws to create an infinite variety of structures. So when we're creating with sound, we work with the natural laws of sound in forming our musical structures, whether we are aware of them or not.
One of the ways we create within the natural laws of sound is to shift the tonic of a given set of notes in a scale. In doing so, we musically place our attention on different aspects of the "tonal gravity field" created by that set of pitches.
The Lydian scale's "function" is not "stronger" or "better" than the major scale - just different. It fact, we're really not talking about "functions" here at all, just the natural principles of sound. Feel free to read more here: The Lydian Scale: Seeking the Ultimate Mysteries of Music: www.musical-u.com/learn/lydian-scale-seeking-ultimate-mysteries-music/
@@andrewbishko8637 All true except one thing. The ionian mode has a much stronger tonal center than the lydian mode. That's why the ionian mode became the major scale, and lydian mode didn't.
@@dragmio the Lydian scale can be seen as a "going nowhere" scale - its tonal gravity field is more static, more peaceful, with all intervals resolving to the tonic. Whereas the displacement of the tonic to the 5th of the Lydian mode creates the constant driving forward in major scale music - the major scale is restless, always seeking to resolve, while lydian music might be considered more "boring" and floaty.
So there is a perception of "strength" in the major scale because it has this energy, this drive.
This drive aptly expresses the restless spirit of Western civilization, with high value on growth and expansion, which emerged in full force at the same epoc as the major scale.
Also important to remember that the ionian mode has only been the major scale in western music for the past few hundred years, while there have been many other popular scales in the millions of years of human music making that came before, during and after.
@@andrewbishko8637 Humans exist only 150.000 years.
@@dragmio my memory gets a little hazy that far back ;-)