WRESTLER Reacts to HEMA Throw
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- Опубликовано: 4 фев 2025
- This is a great example of the state of HEMA Ribgen. Pretty solid, but lacking in context.
Links to sources:
wiktenauer.com...
wiktenauer.com...
wiktenauer.com...
wiktenauer.com...
If I've missed any let me know!
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I have a feeling that Master Ken of Ameridote would love this move.
You'd need to add a groin stomp at the end to make it complete, but it definitely has potential.
I think the groin stomp is assumed. That's how every move ends right?
And also never forget to restomp that groin!!!
I don't know how to get it from the back, but I have seen Fiore's variation pulled off in live sparring on RUclips before. It was in a video on Jessie Enkamp's channel where he was sparring with Icy Mike over a knife. From early in the fight Jessie established control over the wrist holding the knife. They clinched up, Jessie hits Mike with a couple knees, then he pushed Mike's knife hand behind the Mike's leg and reached between his legs with the other hand to establish a two on one. Once he had that, he used that position to do a single leg takedown. Best of all, he ended in a position where Mike's knife arm was trapped between concrete and Jessie's shin, allowing him to easily take the knife, ending the spar. All of this was Jessie improvising from his grappling fundamentals, no one taught him that takedown, and even Mike was impressed because he had never seen it before.
I don't know how similar Fiore's version was, but it's worth noting the position of the knife. Mike held it point up, whereas IIRC almost every Fiore play shows it in the icepick grip. Presumably that is important to Fiore's variation, because the first attack would most likely be from above rather than below. So you would want to get the two on one earlier, bring the knife low as you transition somehow to behind the attacker (which shouldn't be complicated), then go for either the ankle pick or the hand on neck version. But that's my best guess. It's also not how I assume you get to this position in unarmed wrestling, which might suggest the hand on wrist version is specific to dagger fighting.
Fiore's version of this throw is penultimate piece of my dagger demonstrations reenacting. I get someone bigger than me to do it and invariably get the full frontal flip - even if its not the most practical its great for a crowd
Fight team!
I bet!
I've never wrestled a day in my life, but it seems to me one of the more likely ways to end up grabbing a man's wrist through his legs is to start with both hands on one of his wrists while facing him, get him off balance moving towards you, transition to his back while releasing one of your hands to go through his legs, then bring the other hand to his collar.
Or something like that.
Nice. I want to know more about the wrist grab version!
Me too!
We should sneak into the gym when it's empty and try it out.
I saw Jessie Enkamp do something similar from the front clinch in a spar with Icy Mike in what is currently Jessie's most recent video. That required him to push Mike's hand down behind the leg before grabbing it with both hands so he could do a single leg takedown. Maybe it's a similar response but you already have control of the back and the guy tries to stab you between his own legs?
I have seen that situation as well, indeed in another spar between Mike and Jessie (but on Mike's channel) they ended up in that position and Mike elected to let go and make space instead, but if you can grab the knife in the moment they try it you can go for the takedown and they would have few good responses. I bet that isn't Fiore's version, but it's plausible.
@@EnglishMartialArts seems like a good throw honestly if somebody got a shank facing fowards, you control the weapon arm while throwing. As how to get there? IcyMike has the key ironically. When he fights a dude with a knife he recommends immediately shooting in, controling the weapon arm then circling to their back all while controlling because its more difficult for them to shank you if you are behind. So if we combine IcyMike's method with the HEMA throw we might be getting into something.
Look who's been studying his anatomy 👏. I work in sports medicine and I see injuries like yours quite often. Great explanation.
I worked in Orthopaedics for years, taught A&P for the BOA.
can you do a video focusing on Ott Judds wrestling? maybe going through the similarities found in catch? maybe some equivalent throws?
I was commenting about ott jud earlier in another thread
From the description you read, it sounds like the setup is like a bouncer removing someone from an establishment, coming from behind as the other person is looking away.
Yes, thatvwould work perfectly, but I'm not sure that's what Lichtenauer, or Fiore we're thinking of...
Great stuff, many thanks :) I wonder if grabbing a handful of the gentleman's naughty bits would make the throw more effective. Just a thought ;)
It'd certainly make it more memorable!
@@EnglishMartialArts Indeed! ;)
I've seen this throw before though I haven't trained it. It was refered to i delicately as a pump-handle throw (from gripping your opponent's wrist, I suspect.) It is also a pretty common throw mimicked in pro-wrestling.
Fight Team!
Yes, if you go with it you can flip completely in the air.
I first saw this technique in a military combatives manual in my school library. It was to incapacitate someone if you were sneaking around an enemy encampment. It definitely said to grab the groin.
After watching you, Lindybeige, and Scholagladatoria, I must conclude that going on really long tangents is part of being a UK native
That's probably very true.
Its telling that my instinct on reading that is a long tangential anecdote that ultimately concludes "yeap."
We've called the wrist lock through the legs ball and chain. And a variety of throws/ankle picks yada off that . The real trick is establishing the wrist but of course what do you do? if no wrist. This is an example. This a high-crotch often obtained off a head out side leg shot then turning the corner (head on hip ).
Presumably if you grab the wrist the chances of them landing on their face goes up a lot
Or going right over onto their back.
@@EnglishMartialArts on the back and exposed armpit for the dagger finish.
Frankly, I think what the guys in the video are doing is the height of irresponsibility - they wrestle, and with a big throw at that, against people who don't know how to fall properly. Even if you have a complete newbie, you at least tell them "this is the specific way you will fall during this", not just chuck them to the floor, their arms be damned.
As for the throw itself, the only source I know well enough to comment on is Fiore. It's in his 9th master of the dagger, so it is a continuation from a defense against a stab with the dagger in a standard grip - the defense being step to the side and grab their wrist with one or both hands. The description in the technique tells us:
1) it is rare
2) it is kinda hard to pull off
3) you use it as a reaction to your opponent's attempt to yank their arm out of your grip downwards - this means it is a continuation from a successful grab, not just a deflection
4) you only step behind them once you managed to grab their hand from behind their knee, which means they can't simply turn around and not give you heir back
So much for what we know for a fact.
My experience with this play is that it is best done when you, after catching the dagger arm, yank the arm and opponent towards yourself, more or less forcing them into a long lunge. If they do that long lunge themselves, more power to you, but I have yet to meet someone who actually does that when using a dagger. The end result means that you are not only starting fairly low to the ground as is, your opponent is also (hopefully) a bit panicked from the unexpected step he had to take and likely to yank his arm downwards. More than that, the unusually long stance your opponent has means they will be relatively slow to recover, so stepping behind them is easier - specially since they are now so extended that their back is almost turned to the side.
Thank you, that all makes sense.
AMEN & Agreed.
I have seen this throw demonstrated as sentry removal by students of WW2 combatives.
Now I am wondering if I can find a link????? 🤔
Interesting how the automatic captions turn Fiore into Fury... he was not preparing his students to win duels: he was founding the Medieval Avengers! (I guess that Beaucicault could be considered a Hulk 🤔)
[I wrote this while watching the video]
The first one as performed in the video looks like a modified version of a throw from (i think) Parkyns where you grab their collar with one hand and their belt from behind between the legs. They can then be picked up and launched through a tavern door at your convenience.
Looking at the images they provided, my initial thought was that you would pull their arm through so they would go arsenal over tit, but there isn't really enough room for their legs to move past you. I'd expect all you'd wind up doing is driving their heel into your testicles at a rate of knots.
I think the actual intention is to lift their thigh to get the body upright, aided by them trying to pull their wrist upwards out of your hand, at which point you would (assuming you're holding their right wrist with your right hand) pull them over your left thigh dragging on the collar.
The armored one was definitely Gladiatoria. I'm only a few videos into my series on Fiore's abrazare, and I haven't even gotten to the first play yet because I'm going through the context and implicit stuff rather than explicit. Wrist ties, bicep ties, over/underhooks, etc. are all shown, as are body locks, etc. He also makes some mention of takedowns from the posta but doesn't say much other than "start here and transition to porta di ferro" so I go into that as well. It's far from complete but I'd be interested to know your thoughts if you get around to it whether on your channel or not. Love your stuff all the same. FIGHT TEAM!
One thing I feel HEMA guys should take into account more often is that all the teatises do assume you have a baseline of some kind of folk wrestling.
I've always felt the books are just sort of... tricks? Fiore (which i do) has a good deal of those little tricks that seems to assume you're already good at it.
If I remember the introduction to fiore correctly, he says so explicitly.
~wrestling is the basis of all Fighting
~this book contains useful attacks that should not be used in friendly matches
@kanucks9 the problem is the HEMA schools I've seen teaching Fiore isn't teaching those foundations.
Even basic things like breakfalls because they "aren't in the manual".
Can you remember which version?
Well, Fiore was mostly teaching to full knights so his students had to be already good at fighting for sure 😅
Great Video. Not HEMA but the initial entry is reminiscent of Te Guruma in Judo which would often be used as a couter throw.
Do a video on Pale wrestling. Which had falls AND submission. Kind of like catch wrestling. Also do a video on Pankration( Greek MMA).
Wait until the one on Up and Down fighting comes out... 😀
Yeah I'm actually on a waiting list to see a surgeon about an issue with my scaphoid, hopefully it's not too bad. Anyways...
FIGHT TEAM!
I'm using the tried and tested "ignoring it and hoping it doesn't get worse" method.
I've used a similar maneuver as a bouncer to eject people, grabbing their belt and giving them a bit of a wedgie while also grabbing the collar, rarely had to drop them on their face with it.
But like you said, that's a context where you are essentially just walking up behind someone and mugging them. I've never really used it while wrestling or rolling.
That was my first thought, that it looks like a bouncer move.
That's exactly what Parkyns uses it for.
@@EnglishMartialArts Parkyns' contentious men were better dressed than the crowd I dealt with 😆
Fight Team!!!
This move looks like a "Pump Handle" and yeah I would say it can be used. I believe the best way to use this move is after your boy gets the referee attention and you sneak in and perform it from behind-- on a steel chair. For finish add a leg drop, brother.
As a cyclist the common one is scaphoid and clavicle as you go over the bars, I've seen loads come in in A&E over the years as well
I recall a variation of one of these throws that my teenage son wanted to try out on me (I believe it was related to a Fiore dagger play). The landing on the thin mat made breakfalling difficult as my head struck the ground nearly concussing me. We talked about the inherent danger of the throw, and how unfamiliar or uncommon it was in modern collegiate wrestling. We concluded that we were trying to apply modern sporting contexts to a throw that was intended to injure or concuss the enemy in order to make the follow up kill with a dagger much easier. It really makes me that much more interested in using modern wrestling as a tool to hit people with the planet for self protection when needed.
I worry that using it to make them fall onto their head could break their c-spine.
@@EnglishMartialArts I agree, and methods like that would only be appropriate in lethal force encounters. This is something that I would be reluctant to even practice due to safety concerns for myself and training partners.
@@EnglishMartialArtsif someone wants to murder me I wouldn't worry much about their safety
Looks like the throw from from page 107 in George Hackenschmidt's "Complete Science of Wrestling ".
That hand on the back of the collar would be very usefull if you wanted to really have them come down hard on their head by following through that hand , in contrast to a collar tie where you cant put weight directly through the head. Truly a martial throw.
Context i feel is less important without the wrist control , just getting the crotch and collar is a small matter when behind.
Back arch with those grips would be a solid option aswell 🙂
It can be kind of hard to see what they are doing. in old wood print. But at least I think the guy gets a grip of the other guys arm. from between the legs.
Yeah, agreed.
This move (without the wrist control) is very similar to the claw lift in wrestling, or te guruma in judo.
Generally though, the hand on the opponents neck would be wrapped around it instead.
The setup is essentially just doing a duck under from a collar tie, and leaving the collar tie on.
I really want to know if there's some other entry that these books are assuming.
Interesting. At a local studio an instructor called Rawlings was teaching sword play. The lesson were expensive. So I watched once but didn't return ......
Assuming it was Dave Rawlings, he's legit. Good guy, lots of ability.
@EnglishMartialArts It look to me like a [whatever]-jutsu (I have learned it in ninjutsu but a common move in all japanese styles) Where you dodge an attack, get behind the guy and "barrel roll" him. Hand goes on the back of the head, taking advantage of the forward going momentum, you press down and keep the hand on the head as it goes towards the ground. Your other hand goes between the legs and lift hard up. End result the opponents makes a foward roll like a toddler and slams hard on his back. Maybe this is a simpler version of that?
Yes, could well be.
I can't remember all the fine details, but I have been 'thrown' in hema tournament.
I think a valid setup would be an arm drag and stepping around. If you did a squat on the same side of the arm drag I bet your opponent would think you are trying for a single leg.
Imagine their surprise when you go elbow deep and hoist him on up.
Yeah, that could work. I was thinking of trying to hit it from a turtle, or a front headlock. Letting them think the old guy was loosing his touch and giving them space to start to wrestle up. Just slip off the side and pass the hand through as they go to stand.
There is a distinct lack of quality ringen content on RUclips, I've noticed. A real shame.
I can envision one or two ways to get behind your opponent to set up for the throw in a pure ringen bout, but what I can't figure out is how that would ever work in a dagger fight. If you have a dagger in your hand and you manage to get behind your dagger-wielding opponent in a position that is so advantageous, why wouldn't you just finish them off with the dagger instead of going for the throw? If I was attacked by someone wielding a dagger, I would assume that I was in a fight to the death and would be thinking 'stab' before 'throw'. Perhaps armour might be a reason? My only grappling experience is in HEMA, so I feel like I might be missing something here...
If I was in a position to take my opponent to the ground, have them face down with their weapon hand trapped underneath them with me on top I'd be foolish not to take it wouldn't you say? Stabbing through armour can be a tricksy business, and so being able to hold them still could make all the difference...
Yeah i think there may be reason the woodcut shows snatching the weapon hand from behind. If the opponent has a weapon (which almost everyone at the time did) then using the method demonstrated on that very compliant sparring partner allows ones opponent to still hit them. Stopping that weapon hand from either using a weapon already in it or snatching hold of one. Maybe the setup could be something like trying to subdue someone like a criminal or an opponent on a battlefield that doesn't see you coming. Though obviously this is just conjecture based on what experience i have with HEMA myself & what i know of history, combat there in etc.
Looks like a krav maga collar/balls throw.
The pumphandle variant looks like it might be set up via a scramble.
The balls and neck throws usually require an unprepared opponent, imo...
FIGHT TEAM!
God bless all yall!
I'm thinking I can maybe get a variant of it in BJ. I'll have a play for a few weeks and report back.
@@EnglishMartialArts , ya know what? Ive mightve seen a pants-grab-front-dump in bjj also, as a transition from an awkward back/side position, but might also be performed from your knees.
What a strange rabbit hole... lol
Happy hunting brother!
Listening to stories about old injuries is not boring.
It's educational.
Also, I spotted that missing wrist immediately, as well :P
Edit:
How would one set this throw up? I mean, like you said, it'd be really difficult to pull this off in an active wrestling situation.
However, a situation where you need to get rid of someone from the premises? Yeah, we have this things called "niska-perse ote" in Finland, which is basically the same thing as shown here. It's used to get rid of people, but it's only used against either unwary opponents or opponents who are already somehow debilitated (ie. drunk and barely standing).
Well that's good because I have loads and bang on about them all the time! 😆
I'm guessing Parkyns' "how to deal with a contentious man"
Edit: ha just noticed the image in the background of the thumbnail.
I wondered if you'd see that.
@@EnglishMartialArts being blind as a bat, I completely missed it first time around.
I suspect it done where the person is fighting someone else or no aware some is there. That kind of transition woudl be difficult, and if you already gone someone back you could do worse.
I use to skateboard skill issue much
Why not understand this to be an attack from behind?
And that, lads, is why I wear my cup to BJJ.
Fair comment!
I think that ~maybe~ this throw could be pulled off from an arm drag to a back take and throw
Yes, that may work.
Right I've left a comment before saying you show write a book on historical self defence (pre ww2) but I now think you should write a training program (physical paper copy) for people who train modern martial arts BJJ, muay thai etc and who has a fundamental skill level in striking and wrestling but who want to make historical techniques work for self defence with modern training methods???? That also has a structured format, white belt, yellow belts etc style so people can pick it up no make their level in martial arts
I'm refeering here to the throw in the video titled: "Hema throw"
We know its not a good throw but that being said its unsafe to practice throws in HEMA because as you can see in that vid: No cushoned floor. Insanity to be doing that especially against people that dont know how to land after being thrown. Seriously we should just keep throws to Dagger HEMA in cushoned floor or one day one dumbo gonna end up ded & it will be sad.
You make some strong statements there.
In other tangents about medical issues, my wrist is still tweaked from months after having... over eager white belts throwing them selves into side control and treating rolls on a Wednesday evening like its a tournament final.
You're not the next Gordon Ryan, you're a middle aged plasterer who does this twice a week, calm down xD.
Lol, I think I train with him too...
To me,this is clearly a missinformasion from the guy drawing the pictures. Reaching around the thigh,clamping tight around,and pulling is absolutely a good wrestling/grappling technique.... but it has nothing to do with the pelvis area. Its all leg. As you know,the technique in the video,is bad and you would never see this in live sparring
ruclips.net/user/shorts6LRRVX1Gxt0?si=iEo_KYUFc2IPj7bt
For us wrestling illiterates, what's the optimal way to fall then?