D&D Art Then Vs. Now (Ep. 261)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Professor Dungeonmaster examines how D&D art has changed to reflect the tone of the game. Yes, Mork Borg is pronounced "Murk Borey."
DEATHBRINGER RPG www.drivethrur...
Get a DEATHBRINGER T-shirt! dungeoncraft.c...
DungeonCraft Patreon: / dungeoncraftyoutube
Dungeoncraft Facebook : / 1620296361377654
"Fury of the Dragon's Breath" by Peter Crowley
Bandcamp : petercrowley.ba...
I like to think the new art acts as propaganda art one might see at your adventurer's guild recruitment desk. "Join the life of an adventurer! Meet new friends. Great Pay!" Then comes the old school art depicting the grim reality the new recruits are soon to face.
I love this so much
I'm pretty sure that's the implied plot of Goblin Slayer actually.
Basically your best option with WotC in a full on rush to completely kiddify the game and reverse engineer all the lore to steaming piles of troped up shit.
This was a clever take!
@@kylegreene1356 Agreed.
I've been playing D&D since 1987 & I kinda miss when it was "evil". Lol.
I clearly remember an all out argument breaking out at a family reunion in the late 80s over my hobby. Lines were drawn in the sand as my dad's stepmom tried to throw away some of my books on the sly. I can see it now... my mom, who had asked me to show her the game a year or so earlier, digging my first Ed books out of the trash as she screamed, "he's not worshipping the devil! He's playing pretend & doing math! I don't know why that's fun, but he's my son & I say he can play it!!"
Damn, I miss her.
Thanks for conjuring that memory.
She sounds like a great mum
When I was that age at that time I went for a long walk with my mom to fulfill a Cub Scout requirement. The whole time, I told her about D&D… ability scores, classes, XP, AC , to hit rolls… the whole nonsense. She had my back ever since, even when the local priest started getting prickly about my hobby. Now her grandkids play too. 😊
The game kept my sanity as well growing up in an alcoholic family. Glad you had your mom to be your rock. Miss my mom as well.
@@shaunhall960 D&D is great escapism & apparently great for remembering moms, too. :-)
Glad you found a way to deal with being a kid being raised by an alcoholic.
Your mom was a legend. Huzzah!
The level of artistry and detail in those paintings of 80s D&D really bring the game to life! I like 5e’s style, but the art is definitely meant to be more fantastic and less grounded. It would be nice to see a mix in different publications
Hi Bob 😆
That’s exactly what I want, scaling themes of dark and fluff for different settings
Yeah, I think the oldschool art has so much more character and personality. Modern D&D art is kinda standardized, and looks samey, as well as superheroic, even though they are technically advanced. I prefer that strong personality and more amateurish look
I hope that the upcoming Dragonlance does try to revive the aesthetic of OG Dragonlance, which is very dear to me.
Before the ‘80’s there was the dreck (art?) of the original D&D set. The shift in D&D art, I think is more representative of the shift in customer base in both age, size and commercial viability of the game. As the game grew in popularity it became more profitable and more mainstream forcing it to become more responsible in what it portrayed and to attract new players. Having a nude female sacrifice chained to a plinth these days is tantamount to social and commercial suicide and probably played a role in limiting D&D’s audience to the much smaller white/male base it had initially. The things people are complaining about here are the very things that contributed to the success of the RPG and the diversity of its player base.
For me, the epitome of quality, evocative D&D art was by "The Four Horsemen". Caldwell, Easley, Elmore, and Parkinson. Plus some others from the era like Timothy Truman.
Also enjoyed some of the black & white art, but those previously mentioned artists went the extra mile and pumped out some beautiful stuff. The later editions' art just look more cartoonish in my eyes.
Technically, those artists are actually pretty bad. They had a knack for smooth polished artwork, but their sense of anatomy is skewed and their work features mostly unnatural poses: signs of flash over substance.
@@maxducoudray Hard disagree.
@@maxducoudray
Yeah ... Elmore is my favorite artist of all time, for his near-photographic realism. But I can remember him drawing only 2 action poses in his entire lifetime. And Caldwell, my second-favorite, drew none.
I'm all for art style diversity, but yeah, current DnD lacks "risk", even when the setting calls for it to be front and center.
I recommend just making your world in Savage Worlds we're you take wounds, not HP. 4 wounds and you're dying and this can be done in just one attack
I am an older player so I suffer some PTSD from the old games. As such I was always cautious. Nowadays that cautiousness just slows down the game with no payoff so why bother. Maybe I will give Dungeon Crawl classics a try.
Some of the modern style and design I been seeing seems to be very generic that it can be interchangeable with each other.
I won't call 5e art "diverse". I can tell the difference between early 5e art and curret 5e art, but all the pieces in these two "periods" seem made by the same person. You only see a few pieces with a different art style when they are doing a special collaboration, but that's still less than the variety TSR had in their best days.
@@miguelroca5098 yup, what I meant is that even within a style, there are thing DND rule books don’t show. Is not about art style in the end, it is about some sort of aversion to certain type of content.
2:35 I won't argue that style has changed and that art generally portrays heroism in 5e, but yes, I can imagine seeing those gruesome images in a 5e book. Rime of the Frostmaiden has a hag pulling intestines out of a corpse to cook in her cauldron, Nothics tearing out a heart, and a Slaad chest bursting scene.
I hadn't thought of Rime of the Frost Maiden. That's a good point.
Well there are to two kind 5e art:
* When it launch 5e to ID: RotF
* Tasha's CoE to today.
Aye, one of the last 5e WotC books I bought.
@@sonic064, ROTF dropped less than two years ago, bruh.
I can and do see some of this heroism in conan
My personal favorite time period for D&D art is probably the 3.5 era. The armor and characters seemed to have a great balance of realism with fantasy, and the parchment look of the book was really great. The 2e art is a really close second though.
~ Adam
Even with the start of 5e things seemed to be going back to traditional Dungeons & Dragons. It really wasn't until Tasha's was released that things went towards the young and whimsical side of things (sadly). My favorite version is the 3.0/3.5 era. While I started late in 2e the 3rd edition rules were streamlined, THAC0 wasn't a thing (thank goodness), and if one doesn't get supplement heavy things can still feel somewhat balanced. The points you made in this video are spot on, and as someone in his mid-40s it's nice to hear.
Thanks!
3rd edition was awesome. Still my favorite overall. Crunchy but consistent, and it still felt like D&D.
I agree with the 5e drop off point. Actually Tasha was the point where I said no more and stopped buying 5e all together.
There are a couple books that I may still grab here and there, but yeah, I’ve pretty much hit my limit for what Wizards of the Coast produces from this point onward.
The power creep has definitely set in now. I think some problems stem from the way Adventure League and some large collaborative groups end up needing to allow everything, instead of siloing off some content as just being a different genre of the game. IE, Witchlight and Strixhaven are clearly much more whimsical "magic school adventures" than, say, Curse of Strahd.
An excellent overview. Art & Arcana is a wonderful book. My favorite D&D art is still the era of Elmore, Easley, Parkinson, and Caldwell. Keith Parkinson passed away too soon.
Thanks!
The 80's is still my favorite decade of art!
@@shallendor Same here, loved the styles those artists had. Elmore's black & white line drawings are still my favourites.
It was a great blend of fantasy and realism, with weapons and armour looking functional (even when not really historical).
I agree. It is a beautiful book and this was well done.
I think you're right, the art has definitely changed with the times and has moved the benchmark of D&D's expected feeling. It's a little less doom and gloom and a little more hopeful, which fits through the history of the Forgotten Realms (I survived the Spellplague and all I got was a stupid T-Shirt).
But now we have the old Grognards to make third party games with savage rules and we like it that way. Let the Hasbro titan roll on, we'll be over here getting mutated in DCC.
Hey PDM I love the art - the OLD art - and the visceral fear of death of an old school environment. As a teen playing D&D I used to draw characters and hideous monsters constantly. It was always a coup when your most recent monster portrait produced an
"Argh! that is so ugly !" from someone around the table , or when as a DM you dropped a monster pic on the table in lieu of a verbal description that caused a party concensus
of full retreat !
I grew up on LotR and the Dragonlance novels, and my first edition was 3.5. I generally favor art from around 2nd and 3rd edition because of that. A world of story and song, of sadness and joy, and of genuine terrible danger. I remember paging through the monster manual as a teen as if it was some medieval bestiary, and dreaming of tragic heroes and doom while listening to Blind Guardian.
The 80's and 90's style art is what made me sneak into the rpg section of my local comic shop (I say sneak as my parents where very taken by the satanic panic). I loved the art on those books and how beefcake fantasy they where. I can blame that on sneaking views of movies like Beastmaster and Conan. I also love the older hard black ink on white style thanks to WHF rpg and battles.
I am not a fan of the current rampant use of simplified digital art and post WoW craze cartoonishness. As The Bard said, it speaks of corporate time crunches, budget cuts and less appreciation of the art itself, and of course being "safe" which..I guess that's Hasbro's MO. They where a kids toy company before buying all these other games up.
World of Warcraft ruined fuckin everything.
@@nowayjosedaniel Yes, I concur...
Heh, took three sessions to have orcs grab that elf by his 12" ears and drag him away screaming... I once years ago had a WOW guy try D&D. My tactical game did not mesh well with his video game style.
@@nowayjosedaniel including Warcraft. I wish they'd give WoW a break for a half year and release Warcraft IV.
I still have my old Dragon magazines and I'm always looking at the cover art. They always told a fascinating story. And some were very dark. It's hard to take sometimes how popular the game has become and the changes that came with it. But, it's still the greatest game ever.
The good news is this kind of art is far from dead. The OSR is keeping it alive and thriving.
True.
Back in the day around the TSR offices, Elmore, Easley, Parkinson, and Caldwell were called the Four Horsemen.
Pretty good professor!
But there's something you forgot to mention. Early D&D art doesn't overwhelm its viewer. It's more like a clue as to what is there rather than a photograph. It leaves you with more room to come up with your own ideas of what everything should look like, and that is what makes it still resonate well with gamers.
I'd love a list of the old school required reading. I wasn't allowed to play DND as a kid in the 90s because you know religion but I find myself really liking a Conan style game as the grognars call it.
Look up appendix N
its "grognard" .. pronounced "gron-yar" according to Old Geek (hes english and I presume speaks french) .. its stolen from the french for "old man" and was used to describe napoleons oldest most trusty veterans, I guess thats the idea of the name in gaming .. perhaps also a nod to dnds wargaming origins .. and i suppose also its a little related to "triarii" ("tree-ar-E-eye") which was the roman late middle aged troops, who stood at the back of republican armies. They would basically herd the younger fellas into the enemy and make sure they didnt run lol :) To "send in the triarii" meant the battle was down to the line and the outcome would be close
From what I can remember off the top of my head, anything Conan, Lovecraft, Fritz Lieber, Michael Morcock, and Lord of the Rings. There are a lot of others but that's the gist at least all the big ones anyway.
@@madmanvarietyshow9605 they were :) but I dont feel Tolkien is really a "pulp" writer hes a slightly different animal .. he just doesnt do sexy scenes or anything titillating like that does he :)
@@madmanvarietyshow9605 I would also add anything dealing with legendary myths from our own world, too. There was a lot of early monsters that was taken straight from the pages of mythology and folk lore in our own world, too. Early D&D, from my recollection, existed in a valley between four basic mountains. Two that Tolkien and Robert E Howard built in their respective worlds, with Lovecraftian foothills thrown in there, too. Most epic/heroic fantasy is informed by these bodies of work. And then there were the mountains of classical mythology and real world history (some well researched, some very poorly researched), with lots and lots of Catholic/Augustinian influences especially when it came to clerics, priests, and paladins. (Just glancing at weapons selections and many of the assumed sexual ethics, early D&D didn't do a great job of trying to imagine what a priesthood might look like in worlds where no Moses or Jesus ever walked, or in dealing how worship works where multiple gods and goddesses are venerated. The HBO series Rome was much better at that.) So the worlds of Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Kyrnn, and Athas (Athas had a touch of Max Max thrown in, too) was nestled somewhere between all of these influences. Of these early worlds, Krynn my least favorite for myriad reasons.
Highly recommend the movie 'Eye of the Beholder.' It's about the old artists and art of DnD. I watched it on Amazon quite a few times.
I love the art from the older modules. I'm currently adapting The Sunless Citadel (Ashardalon adventure path) for my players in 5E. The art in Nightfang Spire, and Iron Fortress is amazing. I wish there were more gritty adventures. I wish they would go back to making smaller "patches" or adventures for 1-5 levels of play, at different ranges that you could plug into your game, and with them being smaller, they could create a wider variety of types of adventures. Everyone should play D&D the way they want at their table. That doesn't mean they should only sell $50+ books for one type of play group.
Agreed!
My group has been on a heavily modified Ashardalon path for a few years. We did sunless citadel as the intro to DND, and swung out to various back stories, and are now hooking into Speaker in Dreams/Heart of Nightfang tower.
One modification I made is that the Dragon born didn't exist in the world. But once Ashardalon got into the the "soul stuff" females started having dragon-essence babies.
@@jeffreykershner440 Nice, my players are in forge of fury now, they will be going into and out of the adventure path to do some baphomet, warforged, and demon stuff throughout. They'll be running standing stone, nightfang spire, iron fortress, and bastion. I plan on ending bastion with Ashardalon making one last attempt continuing his life by traveling back in time before the sundering. If the players go, and fight him, they'll be the adventurers who defeated him, and the sundering was the result of the battle with the adventurers. Should be a good fun twist for the campaign.
AD&D 2e era art was the best for me.
Elmore D&D is D&D for me, Dragonlance !
I like the realistic art fron that erra
I think that after long years of looking I found my groove in DCC. It combines the deadliness of original D&D with some more advanced gameplay ideas.
Russ Nicholson always draws such dark, evocative line art that really defined early D&D and games like WFRP1.
I still have my 1st and 3rd Edition Books, originals from when I purchased them. Still wish I had my 2nd Edition books, by I gifted them when I had to move across country to East Coast. Still looking to re-acquire those in the future.
I agree with your analysis, and I too enjoy seeing the old stuff, especially the stuff that has to be good because it is rendered in Black & White line art.
Thanks for the awesome video!
Thanks for watching!
I saw that cover of Fantasy Forest in this video. I have a vintage copy in my game room! It was our first step into the game. My parents played and I still have their old books
Thanks for this video - it brings back fond memories.
I started D&D in 1982.
I remember venturing into Ravenloft (I6) with my thief with 3 HP. Needless to say - he didn't make it. I rolled up a fighter who was lost and met the party to finish the adventure.
By 1989 I was in the Navy and then life gets in the way. I had almost forgot all about D&D until Covid. I was back-packing and was stuck in Lisbon when the world shut-down. Finding myself stuck inside for month, I ventured down the internet rabbit hole and found D&D not only alive and well, but thriving. I had missed 2e, 3e, and 4e, my experinces as B/X and AD&D (mostly playing B/X in the 1980s). Learning 5e was easy, but I was initally surprised by the paradigm shift from ordinary adventurer to super-hero adventurer.
While I enjoy 5e, I was happy to find the OSR scene which I am exploring.
Thanks!
I grew up with Choose your own Adventure books so I lean towards the old school. I even have a version of Firetop Mountain with a masterful doodle from Russ Nicholson. And damn, the man can draw.
This is a good analysis how the game has evolved over the time. It's fun to see how it has grown to meet the expectations of new audiences, and is going on stronger than ever. Rock on!
Personally I would like a compromise between the two, not some mild middle ground mind you. But I want the game to be hard again, I want fight's to require strategy and come with a risk of death, and/or maiming. But I still want cool unique ablities and tools to use, I still want to feel heroic. What I want is A return to the days of pulp fantasy, but rather than being just some poor schmuck, I want to BE Conan, Elric, or the Grey Mouser. I want early levels to be lethal sure, a time of proving, but by level 3 I want to feel like a hero, albeit an distinctly mortal and vulnerable hero, but a hero non the less. I don't want to die without a saving throw, but I do want to feel like one wrong move or sour roll of the dice could cost me everything, or at least leave my character maimed for the duration of the adventure if not campaign. However I also want to feel that smart play and acts of daring will be rewarded and not ignored, or worse punished.
In other words, let me play the damn game! I don't want things handed to me, I am not a child. Also stop making everything into high magic/magitech nonsense. It's dull and ironically drains the world of all magic and wounder.
DCC kinda does this in some regard.
Gone are the days off being resurrected and losing 1(one) Con point. For Christmas this past year my wife picked up the book Dungeons & Dragons Art & Arcana for me, this is one of the best books that I have seen with art and lore from the start.
"There's no WRONG way to play D&D". Remember those words. PDM is absolutely right. If you and your players want a dark, gritty, high-risk game, play it. If you just want to kick back with friends and have a good time playing a group of super-powered badasses, that's OK too. I like that now that D&D has been around for so long, it really can be a game for just about anybody. There's the older editions for people who want a tougher, working-class-hero game, and there's the new stuff for people who want to sling spells and do awesome stuff.
Exactly. My group is mostly fellow Gen-Xers who remember back when there were no editions, Just AD&D and D&D Basic. We're playing Wild Beyond the Witchlight at the moment, and mostly prefer 5e rules. But for one-off campaigns, we like cranking the difficulty a bit by getting rid of death saves and making HP Zero = Death.
Thanxx... you wrote my toughts...
And then there's hours of painstaking homebrewing for those of us who like it all 🤣
@@legionarybooks13 just out of curiosity, having played them all, why do y'all prefer 5e? I am learning 5e so I can write adventures for it and my group just had a session 0 this past weekend. Am a forever DM, but hoping to go round Robbin with this group. I've been homebrew D20 GM for the past 20 some years, so not trolling, really am working past my biases to make this happen.
@@angelsegarra1135 to be honest, I had a twenty-five year break between the last time I played and when I started up again, so I only know AD&D and 5e. I like that 5e has a lot more variety in race, class, and customising characters. Plus, it got rid of THAC0, which was a stupid and confusing method of AC. What I don't like, though, is that players are way too overpowered right out the gate, and I think having multiple death saves kills the tension. Although, I am playing a low-level wild magic sorcerer at the moment, and given that I could fail a wild magic surge with any spellcast (outside of cantrips) and potentially fireball the whole party, resulting in a TPK, makes my just being in the party its own source of tension. 😄
The sword and sorcery style from 80s and early 90s is what drew me to the game as a kid and now as adult.
This was a terrific comparison between the editions! Thanks!
D&D definitely has changed a lot since the first edition days, mostly for the better, with the art being the biggest exception. I have heard other people complain that the game is now too bland. How easily we forget the dysfunctions of the early editions. If you think 5e is too "safe" then make it more dangerous, no one is stopping you.
As a fellow grognard, I really appreciate this succinct reminder of how far the game has shifted. I was recently describing a forest of petrified soldiers locked in eternal battle to my newest player and he said, "Whoa, I didn't know this game was going to be scary" and thought to myself, "this isn't the scary part."
Quite interesting. I never stopped to think deeply why the art changed over the years. It explains alot on how the games are approched today versus how they were approched in the past.
Yeah, the art is really telling, thanks for taking us thru the history of the art!
Makes you think how Harry Potter in the Conan universe would be like.
To be assorted to a house, aspiring wizards have to put on and fight the Sorting Hat, a mimic.
I mean, realistically speaking it'd probably involve sacrificing someone for entry to Hogwarts given how sorcerers have been portrayed in some of the stories.
But funnily enough I saw something like your idea in a kids cartoon once so you might be onto something.
@@potato_oni7597 that's also why the Weasleys have so many children, they just roll up a new character if the old one didn't make into Gryffindor.
I really appreciate you sharing the books that inspired the original rules. I recently started reading Conan, and I'm finally understanding the appeal of Sword and Sorcery. It really makes it easier to understand old school games once you read the tales that inspired those rules.
The main thing I notice about the 1e books is that the illustrations were often just pen and ink with no color, so the illustrations weren't much more than a step up from cartoons. Some artists were especially great at this kind of illustration--Jeff Dee and David Trampier stand out as my own favorites--but the cheap (and often reused) illustration style was a sign of the punk, unprofessionalized birth pangs of the hobby. It's hard to believe now, but the 1e core books all had MULTIPLE cartoons in them! So while I understand that power creep has happened over the years, there's also just been a general professionalism creep that has nothing to do with lethality or cuteness and everything to do with cult sensibility: The 1e DMG contains a rust monster joke because where else was it ever going to be published and who else would ever find it funny?
So many great styles! I wish this variety was brought back.
I encourage all of you who've only played 5e to check out the experience point tables for 1st edition D&D, called AD&D (Advanced). The first time I played D&D was freshmen year in college, 1980, and what I loved about the game was how difficult it was to survive, and how hard it was to go up levels. When our characters went up a level, it was almost like a celebration. We really felt like we had accomplished something, and the party was excited too, since now our chances of not getting killed got a little better. We played the game because it was challenging. That's what made it great.
That's how my players feel!
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I'm sure they do. I've seen how you play. I'm a little intimidated : ) Love your video on no initiative though : )
In my own opinion, this is why there are so many threads in the D&D forums about "balance & power," and "fixing" martial classes. 5e has become TOO EASY and as a result, becomes boring fairly quickly at the higher levels. The people who grew up with Skyrim, and Marvel know there is something wrong with D&D 5e's "balance," but they simply can't put their finger on it!
What they DON'T understand is the issue actually lies in the ease with which players acquire power in the form of spells and abilities during play. This makes the gameplay "boring" because the RISK OF DEATH is rapidly removed. The PCs are basically given the STAPLES "Easy Button" at around 9th Level. It then becomes a "grind" like in a video game to acquire even more stuff, which causes even more power creep.
However, the newer generation will fight you tooth and nail IF you even just mention that the solution is to reduce the power of the PCs across all levels. They don't want to give up their power even as it makes their game sessions into a grind that isn't very fun. By having less powerful magic and abilities, they may be required to THINK before they ACT and that is an issue for certain younger players. When you can convince them of this though, that's when the magic happens! They begin to think "outside the box." They become more engaged when they can't automatically spam a powerful spell. They have more "fun" playing. The increased tension that comes with the increased threat of harm is a game-changer! I love playing a "grittier" 5e...
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 A reward which is hard-earned will always be coveted more than a gift that was given.
@@Lightmane Thanks! Got a lot of pushback.
That was a wonderful waltz through history and does a great job picking out the different feel throughout its history.
The documentary, The Eye of the Beholder, is a great overview of the evolution of D&D art from the earliest TSR products until the current books.
I'd be interested to see PDM review Descent into Avernus even just to see his reaction to that art.
I think thats as Gritty and Grusome as 5e will probably get.
The old school stuff is waaay more my style.
One of the things I noticed in 1st and 2nd was that everyone actually wanted to be the DM. Being a player was hell mainly because your always getting your ass kicked by the DMs monsters. Obviously some people love it - and I think those players that intentionally head back for some old school gaming really love it but it is worth emphasizing that players that return to old school gaming know exactly what they are getting into. Back in the day most players wanted to be awesome and do awesome things... but the game did not accommodate. Modern D&D does accommodate your character being awesome.
I'll also point out that a DM that understands the system can get both a dangerous game where death lurks around every corner AND awesome characters that kick butt. These are not mutually contradictory ideas. When I ran 4E we got that PCs are epic and awesome feel but I implemented a house rule that said "when you go down you make your first death save immediately. Any roll of a 1 on any death save and your character is kaput - roll up a new one".
Then, as the DM I made sure the encounters where tough - I usually added a few extra powers to the monsters, mostly so they could do something with moves and minors (unless there where going to be a dozen of the same monster in an encounter). The result was my players where awesome... and they died a lot. They rolled 1's on death saves, they where left behind when the party fled, they took enough damage when down to kill them and sometimes they failed 3 death saves (if the first goes off instantly and then your turn comes up you can be down two deaths saves before any other PC even has a turn... now they have to get you up this round or you might die).
TLDR, your players can have their awesome heroic characters and still have loads of danger and character death if you want too - you just need some house rules.
See, thats the thing if you had a good dm often you didnt get your ass kicked by monsters. It was the god awful traps.
@@user-dd9dh9kw5c Well every groups experience is going to be different. Still the way the rules where written danger with around every corner and life expectancy being short was pretty built into the system. Any DM can change that but Professor Dungeon Master is not wrong when he says that this was a common, even the default experience, and the art reflected it.
Thank you for the comprehensive and nuanced way of handling this topic!
I hate it when people say “older D&D is better” or “newer D&D is better”. This is all subjective preference. There is no right way to play D&D. Let people enjoy what they enjoy!
I agree.
I see no problem with having both art froms existing for when you need it... A gory field of bodies when you need the mayhem and happy fields of bunnies when you need levity... And a happy field of perpetually dying bunnies that are continually crying out in pain and yet they can never die... But they look cute and happy right before that!...See you CAN have both! Just make sure to make it a dream sequence or some form of trap that can be fixed because if your players just leave bunnies perpetually crying in pain it says more about them then it says about the story...
One thing I love about old dnd art is that it feels more accessible. Modern dnd verges on overdesigned. I like the drawings in odnd manuals, or early books like the monster manual. They feel like things anyone with a pen and paper can manage with some practice and inspiration.
I'm dating myself, but Erol Otus formed my first impressions of D&D. The artwork certainly has improved, and I don't begrudge a company for trying to find a wider audience. That said, I think stupidity is the greatest teacher. The more character sheets you rip up, the smarter the player becomes... hopefully. (Still remember a certain 2nd level magic-user who wanted to "take point" in charging into a locked room, and ran face-first into an owl bear. lol) As a dungeon master way back in the day I allowed my knowledge of the players to shape the tone of the campaigns. Most were power-players of one kind or another: kill the monster, steal the gold, get the girl, and passing notes to the DM when one character wanted to pick pocket another character. It was all hyper-aggressive playing, but I did wish there was more actual role-playing going on in the slow moments. Then again we were all constrained for time back in the day because we all had real jobs and responsibilities and other interests we had to get to. It wasn't all that unusual to power our way through an entire module in a 4 or 6 hour session. A very different play style from many others, I bet.
That's what great about D&D every world can be different. The limit is your imagination.
Thank you for covering this topic in an objective, educational way instead of as a biased rant like so many OSR channels do. TTRPGs can be anything you want them to be; that's like the whole appeal of playing them instead of video games.
The artwork alone was worth this video. I've always preferred the early stuff too PDM. I've always felt the art pushes your imagination and inspiration for the game. Nicely done PDM. Cheers!!
I was really disappointed by the 5E art for Ravenloft. It was so “Disney-fied”. Growing up on 2E Ravenloft, the art reflected the intent of the product - players in the depths of otherworldly fear and terror, where the monsters were frightening, and the horror was soul-crushing. Now Ravenloft feels like a place to run barefoot amongst the periwinkle, while taking your new pet werewolf out for a Sunday stroll. Also, instead of just having just an alternative cover for every book they release, I’d really like to see Wizards have a version for kids, and a version for the adult oriented Grognards. That could be a more influential marketing direction for increasing sales, as many gaming families may actually buy both books, depending if we’re playing with our kids, or our friends. Perhaps even the content could be written to be more adult as well? Anything to really separate out the same book, besides just an “alternate” cover, which just feels like a rogue-like cash grab.
Have you played CoS? I find it hard to believe that you have given your description of the 5E setting for Ravenloft where the module strongly encourages DM’s to use classic horror tropes as a means to generate suspense and horror.
@@kurtweihs4665 True, COS I thought was strong, a good reimagining. I should have been more specific that my feelings on this changed with the art in Van Richtens Guide to Ravenloft. I agree, a DM can play it as they see fit. The updated info is welcomed and thought out. My comments are specifically on the comparison of art direction in VRGTR. The art in COS was really strong and I wish it was continued into VRGTR.
@@buddyblueyes yeah, it seemed to me that Von Richten’s was a shameless attempt to cash in on the value that had been created by the many 3rd party producers who took CoS and elevated the quality of the module with hacks and additions (Mandy Mods I’m looking at you!). If all the published adventures CoS just screamed for DM’s to add their own personal flavor to the adventure in ways I really hadn’t seen before. I think that was due in large part to the way the module was put together and I suspect it was a happy accident rather than an intended outcome.
About the alternate covers, I really fail to see the point when they sell for the same price. If it was a more limited print and higher price point, I could see the target audience being collectors, but the new DnD books devalue in money faster than the old ones go up. The 3e stuff sells for higher than the 5e stuff on resell market.
@@kurtweihs4665 I don't think they meant Castle of Strahd, but rather Van Richten's guide to Ravenloft. I haven't seen CoS, just the 3e and 4e books, and 2e Realms of Dread stuff from Ravenloft campaign setting.
I think your analysis is absolutely correct. Oh, I miss the 1970-80's D&D.
Professor I believe you'd be proud of what I did in my last 5e game.
During our investigation on who shot down the flying ship of the city we were residing in, we found the culprit near a beach with forcewall generators connecting to their ship, we manage to blow it up with a shatter, get on the ship and as the party went on the deck, I managed to get inside through a canon hole on its second floor.
There 2 of the crew are sleeping, and I roll high on my stealth roll, managing to pass them while wearing a half plate armor. As I do, I hear the party above having a small exchange of blows with the creatures on board.
From one end of the corridor I hear voices playing cards, the other side is silent, so I go that way and find an iron drum full of something and a crate with 2 heavy tubes and a warning label on it side a small room at the rear of the ship. I proceed to find dried wheat inside of a bag and start making a path leading further inside as to escape before it blows.
That is when one of my party members came down from the other end and yelled my name and to come up.
My reaction is to drop the coal as I think the enemy is using my teammates' voice. It then lights up the wheat path and I bolt out through another cannon hole falling into the water.
When I manage to rise back up I yell "Everyone out from the ship!" And start swimming to shore.
A few moments later, a large explosion happened as 2 torpedoes exploded and the napalm from the barrel started spreading, dealing 148 damage to the ship and anyone in a radius of 40ft. As a result, 2/4 of the crew died by the fire and ¼ by drowning, stuck inside the sinking ship. A problem arose however as the radius had reached the front of our ship and covered it in magical napalm. Something that can only be extinguished by magic only. To make the rest of the story a bit shorter, we fought some 9f the remnants of the crew, then beach dock our ship, waited for the napalm to finish consuming the part it was on, used another boat to fix ours and left the surviving crew on the tiny island. (I have no remorse about killing them as they tortured their prisoners, then experimented on them and then ate them.)
What had happened was that the party had managed to start talking to the crew on deck after the crew attacked them. They were in the middle of the talk when they sent one of the pc down to get me. And after I yelled "Everyone out from the ship!" The crew decided to attack the party thinking they had been had.
It was fun and I'd recommend anyone who find napalm to use it in dnd.
1st edition art and gameplay is the best! Love it!
You’re right on the money, the old art capture the pulp roots. I’m younger. But I love old pulp stories, so I’m interested in trying old school dnd.
Anybody who has adventures with a "bunny", never darkened a door of the Undercity or the Castle Amber...
Love Art & Arcana, but one quibble: JIM HOLLOWAY didn't receive enough credit. Oriental Adventures (hardback and modules), Monster Manual II, Gangbusters, The Lost City, Against the Cult of the Reptile God, chunks of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Dragon Magazine covers and filler art, some Dungeon Magazine covers and interiors ... outside of TSR Battletech, Paranoia ... the guy was incredibly prolific!
Deadbringer saaaays he doesn't dance, yet a common past-time of pulp adventurers, IS dancing on the grave of their enemies.
As a fan of Brian Jacques's Redwall series, while there are heroes, the villains are dark, dastardly and deadly. The heroes often only manage to pull thru by being damn lucky, divine guidance, or happening amongst friends...often all three. The amount of slaughter and slavery would probably impress the Slaugh.
Yeah, first book I read of the series literally has the villain introduced carrying the heads of two fluffy creatures he's killed, and two characters are eaten by one of the other bad guys. Redwall is dark. The thing that makes it more "child-friendly" is that the villains are obvious baddies and the heroes are heroic. Not much in the way of moral ambiguity.
To answer your question as to what look I prefer, laughs, I completely agree that the cover of the first ed. Players Handbook is the pinnacle of D&D art from the late seventies and early eighties. Being someone who discovered the game at age twelve, back in 1982 I have a lot of very fond memories of that kind of the Frezetta style artwork. Back then, we were trying to merge our understanding of Tolkien with the movie Excalibur and our very limited understanding of Homer and mythology. So the flavor of our games was less grim-dark gritty and more heroic gritty, where death was still around every corner. That said, I have a few Clyde Caldwell prints hanging up in my miniature painting shop/gaming room.
I totally agree--I prefer Conan to Kung-Fu Panda.
+1 For Jethro Tull mention.
Love the channel and my Deathbringer t-shirt! I enjoy all the styles of art and will most likely get that book. It is interesting to see the evolution of the art and how it related and still relates to pop culture. Thanks Professor!
You're welcome and thanks for buying a t-shirt!
Agree with your assessment. I wonder from a money standpoint if Wizards could make two versions of the rules to accomodate the preference difference between current D&D trends and the darker ways of the past.
I doubt it.
Larry Elmore is just amazing.
Sure is.
I like the epic feel in the art of Elmore, Easley, and Caldwell. Late 1e and 2e were my preferred D&D aesthetic. 2e was somewhere between classic's brutal crawler and 5e's superheroism
You can say whatever you want, and I agree, but that Death Cleric Tortle from Avernus hits hard, and is one of my favorite art works.
I will say while dnd was skewed more towards adults, I think the reason why you and so many other kids in the 70s and 80s got into it is the same reason why so many kids got into stuff like Ghostbusters or RoboCop, because they were cool and edgy and for adults so it made them feel more mature, smart, and cool, like they were in the know on a big inside joke right?
Not saying those were the only reasons this things were beloved of course but to get the idea.
And while I'm sure today's dnd will be beloved by the current kids playing it, I almost feel that it's trying too hard to be for kids almost to the point where it feels generic or milquetoast.
But it's more likely it's just my opinion as a crotchety old grognard in training 😆
Nice sleuthing! It's interesting to see how the distinct art styles match up with changes in the real world zeitgeist. Although I don't think you covered why the art style changed from 2nd to 3rd edition.
90's comics. But they went too far in 4e with it. Audiences expected more than the Black & White art of previous years, but all painted Alex Ross and Frazetta Style would've been too much. I loved the consistency of 3e art style across not just the WotC books, but most 3rd party D20 stuff, unless they were going for a different, distinct, look. Monte Cook's stuff was my favorite, albeit unbalancing or too niche so didn't use, except for Arcana Unearthed.
3.5-4e art will always be my favorite though, I had a thing for the dynamic gritty comic book style.
I love the older art as well, but 3.5 and 4e are where I discovered Wayne Reynolds and love his work too.
Took a 30yr hiatus from avid D&D playing to start a family and build businesses. Kids out of college, businesses sold, retired and started getting into D&D again…I barely recognize the game. How the mighty have fallen. This gentleman is so on the mark with this video. D&D today is one big Marvel Movie. Gonna run my games like it’s 1985, when characters weren’t Gods, they struggled and sometimes died.
Jack Vance! Love his writing! He really influenced the games I ran back in the 80's.
Give me gritty art as the fluffy kind has no place in my worlds!
Funny you should mention that. I JUST opened a box from Goodman Games. It contains DCC Dying Earth. I'll do an unboxing review shortly. I've got COVID and Mrs PDM has given me strict instructions not to make videos. But look for it on a Thursday in the future.
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Take care Professor! Hugs!
The Silver Sword basic D&D module from the 90's has a fantastic cover you should have showcased here. It features some poor adventurer reaching for a sword while being devoured by nothing more than a simple green slime, and it looks quite painful too.
The more of your videos I watch, the happier I am that I never wasted my money on 5th Edition.
In Deathbringer, it is possible for any character to "do a backflip, snap the bad guy's neck, and save the day!"
"More Conan and less kung fu panda." Brilliant
The Fiend Folio had some amazing stuff
Nostalgia hit hard with this one, thanks Professor
Thanks for watching!
I love the old artwork Easley and Elmores, nice fellows, take me back as well. But like you said there is no wrong way to play DnD and if it moves you it’s doing it’s job!
I gotta say I grew up with 3rd. Recently got my friends to play Dungeon Crawl Classics and Old School Essentials. Most of them like it better than 5e. Theres something about playing a victim that appeals more than playing the superhero. We think it lies in being almost a normal person and when you survive it is an accomplishment. I ran a OSE one-shot this past weekend with more awesome moments than I have had in modern D&D for the last few years.
I try to die so many times in games but the DM...just..keeps...me...ALIVE!
As always Professor DM you Red Nails’d it!
Red Nails is so good. That should be required reading for DMs.
Thanks!
Really great analysis. I thoroughly enjoyed that, and for someone who grew up with 2e but primarily DMs for people 10-20 years younger, your explanations for the generational differences make a lot of sense.
Thank you!
If everyone agrees about how it should be played, great. I happen to like the same things as our beloved professor dungeon master, but have players who want the superhero stuff because “that is how it was designed and has to be played “. This is where my heart sinks, as i don’t want to use so much time and prepping and running a game, just to stroke some egos and assure them how they all are so formidable.
I feel you, George. Thanks for commenting!
as a gm my first words to them are,"you will learn when to run. or you will roll a new character." or some version of that depending on the group.
I'd love one day to have a mixed generation party, both in game and out of game, where some plays older, retired adventures Who have already defeated the same menace the new Heroes are called to fight and maybe get a "once more into the fray" scene with the youngsters at their side.
Finally, someone managed to put it into words: 3.5 art, which I started with as a kid, is De'Vinci-like while 5e art is superhero-like.
"Over-stylized and marketing-orientated" is what I called it.
Does anyone else feel like this video's vibe is 'Old Man Yells At Clouds'?
I'd be okay with saying that 5e focuses more on hero fantasy than OD&D, AD&D, or D&D Basic but we shouldn't pretend that in the halcyon days of D&D 3.5 and D&D 4E characters were more grounded and the fantasy was more gritty and survivalist. I'd estimate that the perception of D&D as superhero fantasy began somewhere in the 90s. I'd also say that 5e makes more attempts to connect with D&D's roots as a survivalist, resource management game than either of the previous two editions did.
I also wouldn't say that the art in older versions of the game were designed for 'mature' people, often it was designed to appeal to arrested adolescent men (that is to say, adult men who are still tickled by the image of a scantily clad woman and imagine their heroes bulging with impossible amounts of muscle). Some of the art back then was technically good and attractive enough to get people to buy the product but I'm not sure it should be held up as the be all and end all of D&D.
I will concede the point that more D&D enthusiasts should be engaging with fantasy works outside of what is currently mainstream, at least so they can build out a better mental library of sources to develop character and campaign ideas.
You're wrong.
My first Campaign (DarkEye) i was ever running starts like 4 years ago (yes im a New DM) and from the start on i homebrewed so much more Gore and Darkness in it. I replaced all the colored Pictures with oldscool 80s Fantasy Pics like Frazettas and made them all and every map in a black/white/ handdraw Style. Our Group loved it so far and they have an constant Thread that every fallen Rock could kill them. So I couldn't agree more to your Video. I understand the Marketing behind it, but there is one Thing, even you didn't mention:
Simple Art spreads more own Pictures in the Head of a Player than detailed, colourfully digital Art. What you can't see, even the colors, forces your Imagination and that will always produce the best "Graphic". But it's not only the visuals, everything will become more intense if you can tell Story's with grey Charakters, not black and white. And that's only possible if you tell an adult Story where the NPCs have believed Problems because there are Farmer or something. If you play Strixhaven for Example, you play in a Fairyworld where everything is Harry Potter and you have flying Animals everywhere. Nobody will blink with an eye here if a girl gets possessed and starts flying in the Room.
So yeah In my Opionen the Turn from Conan Dungeons to SuperheroHogwarts is not only a Styleproblem, but also a Imersioncutter.
I love Wayne Reynolds' artwork. What he did for Eberron was great!
Mörk Borg (not Mork Borey) is the name of the Heavy Metal-style RPG which was mentioned. It’s a tongue in cheek comedy OSR, and I highly recommend playing it. I think the game was also written by European authors. ,
Ah! Elmore and Caldwell's art! That is Fantasy to me! And even if I do not know if he ever worked on D&D material, I have to name Gary Chalk, he illustrated Joe Dever's "Lone Wolf" saga and first warhammer edition I think. A true master.
Maybe I'm just a weirdo but I don't understand how changing the art to be brighter, more colorful, less violent, more sanitized and just overall less dangerous looking helps it appeal to a young audience.
When I was a kid there was nothing cooler to me than something that looked way over my head and that my parents wanted to burn. I could just be out of touch, but it's probably the children who are wrong....
I do wonder if the forbidden fruit aspect of much of murder, gore, occult creepiness has faded as it became more generally accepted and the pendulum began swinging back to where a softer aesthetic became a form of rebellion in itself. Or the hobby became more sanitized as went mainstream from being somewhat more niche in my youth (though it was in the popular consciousness at the time from E.T. to Satanic panic). It was mostly a niche male hobby like war gaming. That has vastly changed.
@@subotai358
Yeah, violence and vulgarity are much closer to the surface of the culture than they were when i was younger. Edgy is now used as a pejorative term. It is what it is. I don't really want to sound like an old man shitting on some kids fun, but I do notice how different things are and I'm not exactly thrilled by the changes. Some things are definitely better better though, kids into nerd culture and nerd adjacent things like metal don't get harassed as much as I did.
For me I enjoy all the art, it just depends on the style I'm looking for at the time. However, when it came to actually running D&D I've done everything from epic adventures to a straight up action comedy inspired by Discworld and Monty Python. I ran a pulp game modeled after the stories of authors like Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, Frank Belknap Long, and good old HPL himself called “Dungeons & Dagons”. A bit on the nose, but the title gave the players a good idea what to expect. It was low magic, with no humanoid races. Clerics were limited to mostly cults or not so nice religions that worshiped bad things. Level gains required more experience so characters stayed pretty low level. Magic was also limited, with wizards having to find spells to learn them and even a +1 magic sword was something to covet (and kill for). Magic could also be dangerous, so botching a spell could have dire consequences. You could burn HP for extra bonuses (as you literally sacrifice your life force to power a spell) and nasty spells could corrupt you and shift your alignment closer to Chaotic Evil as they twisted you into a power hungry mad man (which most people viewed sorcerers as anyway). There was a monotheistic religion that sought to exterminate all other beliefs to cement their power (you can guess who they’re modeled after) and even creatures like ghouls or deep ones were something to fear if you were not careful. But even with a decent mortality rate amongst the PCs the players still loved it and bragged about their character’s nasty ends as much as their victories which they seemed to relish even more when confronted with such dark and deadly enemies. The world was modeled after medieval Europe in all the bad ways with an extra level of nightmarish horror and corruption to boot.
The art of D&D has always fueled my inspirations in my games and my own art. Some of it is a bit too candy for my use, but as a whole I've yet to look over a piece and reflex my lunch. I'm very excited about the return of Spell Jammer. There was some truly wild pieces in that system. I wonder how much of the style will transfer over to the new books?
I love these style videos, and would love to see more.
Of the various editions of D&D we've had over the years, I think the second edition art style is my favorite. Pre-2e art is great too, but I just really appreciate how realistic it looks, and how often it looks like a painting (most likely because they *were* paintings). We get a lot of really stylized art these days, and while I enjoy that a lot, there's just something nice about having something that seeks a bit more realism.
Love hearing from different players with different perspectives. I wrote for 2nd edition but it was never my favorite. However, I LOVE that YOU love it. That's super cool.
I remember those days. Crappy characters. Lucky to survive one encounter, let alone an entire dungeon. Backstory? Why bother, just invest the time in creating 5 back-up characters, you'll need them.
NO THANKS! You can keep that stuff in the commode where it belongs. Don't forget to flush.
I'll play games where a story can develop around a group, not just of players, but of characters. If you think that is an overpowered way to play, I will disagree forever.
Have a nice day!
And spending hours writing up a character you'll play just as much as the back storyless peon from OD&D.
5e players pretend they have these amazing character driven epic superhero campaigns, but the actual statistics show they DO NOT. They play a character a cuppla times, get bummed out because other people at the table also have amazing characters, then spend another 40 hours writing up a new main character they play for a cuppla sessions and get disappointed with. rinse, repeat.