It's nice to see him with a smile. Go look at him and play overwatch 6 months ago. It's night and day. Keep it up, my guy. If you truly enjoy what you do, we enjoy it as well. Edit - fixed punctuation error
@washedtoohot It's so cool seeing people who are finding him through Rivals. He was like a lot of Overwatch players at the time. He knew what the game could be, but it just wasn't. This game is new and refreshing with responsive devs
Battlefield 1 had somewhat a comeback mechanic. The losing team would get those big vehicles (zeplin, train, or battleship) to help even out the playing field
@IGazeWithin It changed the flow of combat, making matches more interesting, which in turn made them more fun. It wasn’t overpowered either, because they could only have the vehicle on 1 objective at a time, and it could be destroyed, so the winning team could try to focus and destroy it, or focus other objectives and avoid the dreadnought and still win if they hold other objectives well enough. Also, yeah, the spectacle of it made it super fun as well. Having the zeppelin blow up and crash onto an objective and change the topography of the map was awesome. Battlefield in general is one of those games that has never felt too frustrating to me, because when you die, you jump right back in at a spawn location of your choice, with a class/loadout of your choice. Keep getting hammered by tanks? Switch assault and focus on blowing them up. Snipers in a lighthouse gunning down your allies every time you try to approach? Respawn in a bomber and try to blow the lighthouse up. I also don’t recall there ever being a competitive mode in Battlefield, and you’re a small fraction of your team, so I never felt pressured to sweat my ass off, and even when I’d lose, I’d often have still had fun.
Massive immersion points there too. It always felt like such a big moment facing down this sudden looming titan of machinery. There would always be dedicated hunter squads form just to dismantle them as fast as possible.
He’d actually pick up fighting games pretty fast imo. If it’s sf6 or Strive, he could potentially learn pretty decently. The skills are kinda transferable
Lots of stuff Paladins did back in the day. Symmetrical game mode, where each team fought for a point, and the team that caps then pushes a payload. Gain more ult charge for killing someone based on how high there kill streak was.
0:50 In a team game, asking "did the better player win?" is the wrong question, it becomes "did the better team win?" Which is a harder answer to quantify, because it has to take into account not just the individual skill of every player, but each teams ability to communicate & work together. Then you get into situations like "does this single players ability on one team surpass the entire ability of the other team?"(A carry; though presumably the higher on the skill tree you are the less likely that is to happen.)
19:57 very accurate description of fighting good zoners in fighting games. You could think of a widow“missing” as a zoner having bad spacing or missing an anti air or both even.
A super simple way you can think a good fighting game character vs a bad character is options divided by interactions. More options to do damage and less amount of hits(interactions) to win the game
As much as i deem the play style stale, boring and frankly uncreative. I can't argue it takes some level of skill you out range your opponent. There are ways around it. Imo, there is no way around a Teammate who wont swap, can't process the team fight, refuse to conduct most basic team cooperation.
So about that widow analogy, you have more options than you think. Like baiting a shot or flanking. You have options the skill is knowing how to use it and using it correctly
To answer the question about chess being “solved,” no it isn’t. Checkers is solved but chess is still evolving especially at the human level. Even engines still lose to other engines.
That could just come down to a better engine, chess very much is solved you just have to account for human error that you wont always get the right answer
@CurseNemesis From the opening there’s ways to “force” draws by both players not blundering/playing bad moves. When someone makes a bad move, then a win can be seen but even to get to that point could take hundreds of moves to exploit the weakness or it still ends in a draw. You still can’t force a win or draw from certain positions so it’s still not solved
I'd say Rival's comeback mechanic is keeping ultimates between rounds. Being able to wipe the enemy with ults right out of the spawn room, because your team could never get out of spawn in the previous round, can help worse players get to experience being in the lead for at least a little while.
@ You only keep ults in the capture the hill gamemode. Both teams keep their ult charge and go back to spawn when the round changes. Both teams benefit from it equally. Comeback mechanics specifically refer to things the benefits people who are actively worse like in Mario Kart. If you are in the lead you only get coins and a single banana from boxes but if you are last you get things like bullet bill or the gold star which are both absurdly powerful tools.
@nadaburner X-Factor in UMvC3 also counts as a comeback mechanic despite both players having access to it at all times. It's just stronger if you use it on your last character than when you have 2 or 3. Similarly, teams that are winning confidently can use their ult right out of spawn on the second round, but they'd probably see it as a waste when they won so many fights without ults in the previous round. Plus, the winning team usually uses some ults to secure the round to prevent overtime shenanigans. The system benefits the losing players more most of the time, so it could be seen as a comeback mechanic.
11:00 ImMarksman explained this really well once before. If the game tried to balance the lobbies with an 80/100 but he is 100/100 then his team will probably be filled with 60-70 and the other than team all 80. It can be really frustrating for the high level player having lower skilled team mates. I think the MMR is always something trying to balance it in that way.
@Yerocco He's gotta make content, and him bringing attention to it, is what gets it fixed so fast. I hate to say it but Marksmen isn't the biggest voice in fps games anymore
The Mei/Soujourn mouse swaps make sense, but being used to CoD for so many years it is built into my mind that right click is associated to aim better for using iron sights/scopes
except that in cod when you ads it changes both your fov and mouse sensitivity whereas is overwatch it does neither. A lower sensitivity on top of a smaller fov causes an increase of precision that you wont get in overwatch in which case its similar to hip fire and I guarantee if you're hip firing in cod it will be easier with left clicking and not right clicking.
The talk about grapplers/zoners being intentionally kneecapped is so funny because potemkin is inarguably top tier and arguably top 1 in current patch.
johnny the "zoner" and pot being top 2 lmao. Would be funny af if venom is top tier, probably going to be another dizzy situation because those 2 are quite similar on how they play in xrd and there kits being "xrdy" (both setplay zoners) Venom is either going to be to 5 or going to sit with dizzy and zato at bottom 3. I am very interested on how they implement venom into strive.
Didn't Nago and Happy chaos still win the last few big tournaments? Imo might speak to potemkins tournament viability. Yet everyone is very upset he is this good regardless
I get what youre saying here, but also in CCGs you build your own deck. There's an element of RNG, but you had a chance to manipulate the odds before the game even started.
A quick note about Mario Kart and competitive integrity: While the competitive integrity of Mario Kart isn't super high, it's nowhere near as low as 99% of people think it is (at least for MK8DX, it's the only one I've played competitively). Sure, people in the back get better items, but at a high level, you can just go to the back, get some good items, and then comeback and win. Items add a whole new dimension to the gameplay with balancing the risk of being super far back with the potential reward that you get from the items.
@31:40 a great example is revenge from for honor. It rewards a player's ability to anti-gank, so it feels fair to the gankers because it takes a lot of skill
I think Flats shouls try out fighting games someday, contrary to what he says in 40:23, getting into fighting games is not that hard, i got into them while studying in college with no prior expereience or knowlegde, and Eskay is also a pretty good example of being able to learn them in a "short" amount of time. Heck, with a bit of luck, if Flats is interested in getting into them, he could even try to get into a Sajam Slam (idk how streamers are selected to play in it, but with Eskay having participated in the last 2 SF6 slams she could maybe try to talk to sajam about Flats)
I know you probably mean well, but why should he have to do something he says he doesn’t want to? This happens every time chat asks him his opinion on something. Not everyone has to like what you like
he was talking about the issues with widowmaker and having to chose between peeking and not playing the game made me think of TF2 and the sniper in that game. In tf2, the sniper can quick scope one-shot 5 out of 9 of the classes in the game (barring certain unlocks) and can one shot any class in the game even through medic over health (except fist of steel heavy) with a fully charged shot. I mention this because i was thinking of how widow is kept in check by the existence of heroes who excel at getting close to the widow, but tf2 has limited options for this, with the only classes that can most safely and consistently challenge snipers, spy and scout, are limited by map design in scouts case, and being a bad class in spy's case, which leads a good sniper on a map with longer sightlines and limited flank routes (a lot of them) will dominate a lobby.
Plus shield tanks make is so that you can move through a line of sight without getting your head popped off. Not to mention all the movement abilities. yeah sniper is far more of an issue than widow has ever been. it doesn’t help that the popular maps are the ones he excels in
Demo and soldier can jump with explosives to sniper, it costs hp but it's still worth mentioning. Sniper that is too far back is especialy vulnrable to that because his team won't be able to help him immediatly.
Shounic did an experiment where he removed Sniper from the game, and all it did was make the game less frustrating and make people team fight more often
As a pretty dedicated i-no main guilty gear player, I think marvel rivals lowkey mastered the same fairness & character mastery feeling i get playing fighting games. This esp felt true going from hardstuck ow silver to mr gm. Yeah ironman CAN counter magik, but the matchup becomes easier when i improve and am able to just dash him in the air. Marvel rivals also kinda adopted the guilty gear balance philosophy that “if everyone is broken, no one is!” Characters like Namor and Peni do hard counter magik, and it is easier to just switch, but similar to fighting games, the skill ceiling is nearly infinite. In ow this was really only a few characters, but nearly the entire cast of marvel rivals has a lot to them.
i really have to question that statement about skill ceilings because that's not at all true of overwatch and MR has some incredibly low floor low ceiling characters as well (iron fist, scarlet witch etc)
9:16 So hopefully he will see this comment, last season in League of Legends, it was revealed that blue side was so much better than red side. In order to compensate for that asymmetry, they made the player from the red team be higher elo than the ones on the blue team. They screwed up big time and made them way too good compared to their blue side counter part and everyone had a higher wr on red than blue. It was a 5% difference for literally everyone.
29:00 Yea, it stems from the preception in the difference between "physical skill" (Being able to aim your mouse) and other types of skill like "game knowledge." The fact that hero shooters are at the end of the day still "shooters" means that there will always be a portion of the playerbase that holds "can click heads" as the highest value skill.
With the mouseswaps, I feel like it really depends on the person. For console at least, it feels even more convoluted sometimes. Depending on the hero, some of the abilities feel so unnatural. Most console players feel more comfortable with active functions on their right. Shooting, grenades, jumping, reloading, ult, crouch, aiming, ect. Left hand usually controls a lot less(mostly just walking direction) while waiting for something else. But there are other players who grew up learning to spread inputs because it's hard as hell to constantly jump around with A and aim decently at the same time(also why i think console aim is so much different with flicking/tracking than pc). For me, I had to go through every hero and swap my abilities to make my brain comfortable. I love mystery queue, so having everyone feel, in terms of controls, as similar as possible definitely helps. Also helps when I want a random couple games of CoD, after I get clowned on as any vertical hero, because I never got comfortable as a bumper jumper.
the first game i thought about with comeback mechanics was league of legends, bounties on players who are rolling a killstreak and objective bounties, like when you fall a certain amount of gold behind the enemy team, they put bounties on turrets for the losing team so that getting one turret is worth the same gold as getting 1.5 turrets was for the team ahead earlier in the game. which can lead to very wacky outcomes since league of legends is a 5v5 game, you can have one player on the losing team being ahead of EVERYONE on the winning team since they played better than the person in their somewhat isolated lane, and if they get too far ahead in lane, even someone coming to help making it a 2v1 can just end up giving the poerson even more of a lead, and since its a very income based game where you get stronger with the items you buy from the gold gained by killing enemies taking objectives and farming the AI lane minions, it can work out in such a way that you have a team ahead by only a few thousand gold can lose entire team fights cause one guy on the losing team is ahead of everyone on the winning team by about 3000 gold. it happens ALOT in lower ranked games with noob stomp characters.
My favorite comeback mechanic is from Battlefield 1, with the Behemoth/Elite Kits. It was always so unbelievably awesome when in a 32v32 a side that falls behind gets an Airship L30 Zeppelin, a Battleship, an Armored Train, Massive 2C tank, or the flame trooper in cqb maps. Ah that game was always so fun.
8:00 Its only "solved" for the endgame aspect where players have barley any pieces left. Realistically no human ever will know a solved game of chess with any 8 pieces (from what the computer currently got solved)
An interesting perspective on this comes from the cardgame realm. The creator of Magic: the Gathering once said that the optimal win rate in a competitive game between someone a player and someone one tier below them in skill is 80%. The main reason for this is to create a kind of ladder system where weaker players can learn from players better than them without being overwhelmed by the sensation that they're getting completely crushed and have no shot of victory. The idea is that at top level events, players can just play more games to make up for the variance that leads to this possibility, and that the benefit of growing the game is far more valuable to the scene as a whole.
Yep, I just recently changed the primary and secondary fire on a lot more heroes, besides sojourne and Mei, and I've hit way more kuni on kiriko now than before by shooting with my pointer finger and healing with my middle. Can help depending~ And the whole map thing makes a bit of sense, when you have things like reversals and expected, where you're favored but you lost, or you were favored but you won. Same with consolation and uphill battle, where you weren't favored but you lost, or you weren't favored but you won~ (Talking about OW mind you)
32:32 I'd say the comeback mechanic in overwatch is built into the maps; in that the more you are losing the closer to spawn the fight is, thus giving less time for people to rejoin the fight. (granted it's a small one.)
That VR earthbending fighting game Rumble is actually a really interesting example of game balance. There is a seemingly very limited move set (5-6 types of rock, 3 movement abilities, 3 modifiers, 3 attacks, and several ability stones; of which you pick like 1 or 2) but the ways that everything interacts physics-wise (and the fact that once you are out of the tutorial there's only really random matchmaking) has caused the community to develop move-sets that come out of combos, and entire fighting styles that weren't specifically intended by the devs.
A huge comeback mechanic not discussed or barely at the end is MOBAs like league for example. The bounty system, be it through objective bounties that reward the losing team or scoring a kill on a player who was doing very well and amounted their own bounty, it keeps the losing team in the game through rewarding them for making small victories into something that can mount a comeback and are generally considered to be a healthy system for the game by most accounts
Yeah, but in league there’s a direct increase in power as a reward for killing players, which allows you to snowball heavily, so it makes sense to give a higher reward for killing a player that is literally more powerful than you. Technically a come back system, but the winning player has also received a benefit from playing well. This would never work in overwatch (except stadium) because getting a benefit for playing worse would just be unfair since playing better doesn’t give you a direct advantage, it’s just skill.
More times than not the better player should win. There's obvious gray area like if they're trying, or if the other player is good as well, but for the most part the answer is yes.
Flats you should try a fighting game, you'd like it! if this video made you go "that's so interesting" "that's so smart" then I think you'd have a lot of fun with them. there's not as much to learn as you might think, a lot of it is pretty intuitive :]
He could also throw out a move at just the wrong range and then get punished for it by the zoner. Sometimes throwing out that long arm is the correct choice to get a counter hit and then close the distance. Fighting games have its own little dance of RPS going the entire time.
Thought it was worth noting that the loudspeaker item in Mario Kart can counter blue shell's. I think counterplay is extremely important when it comes to perception of fairness in comeback mechanics.
hero shooters do have a comeback mechanic, its the fact that defender spawn gets closer to the payload when attackers are at the end, and vice versa. it means that at the start attack has the advantage as they can come in mid fight after a respawn and reinforce quicker, and then at the end defense gets that same boost
Mario Kart and Smash Bros are both examples on how the best player not always winning can make games fun. There is so much RNG and crazy scenarios that can happen that make the games extremely fun and open the door for a lesser player to come out on top. The unpredictability is thrilling and the sales of each game shows that’s something lots of people enjoy
Fun factoid: Punk (the player in that EVO Street Fighter clip in the beginning of the vid) has been chasing that victory for a long time. He'd always come close, taking around 2nd and 3rd every year, and is probably one of the only American player keeping up with the rest of the world, right up there with the Japanese, Korean, and a couple of Pakistani and Dominican Republic players. So, it's a suuuuuuuuper huge win.
yea MOBAS typically have comeback mechanics, usually if a play is higher level, you gain more experience and gold for killing them than if they kill you. theres even sometimes a “bounty” system so to speak where a play on a killstreak or thats doing fairly well, will reward even more gold/exp in conjunction with their higher level. this usually scales quite a bit, i have seen people gain like 2-3 levels just from killing someone that was doing well and if they were low enough level. also smite has a mechanic where the lowest level player on a team (usually the support in 95% of games) will gain bonus exp when sharing exp and gold. given that they usually only receive assists and will give up farm for their carries. they dont gain a straight bonus, its only for when they split farm with other teammates. also, at least at higher level of play, destroying towers and objectives could be considered a “comeback” mechanic in some ways. typically, you want to actually avoid taking objectives really early on because the farm it gives you isn’t really worth the pressure you lose on the opponent. it gives the person you lane against an advantage because you have push farther up to farm, making you more susceptible to ganks. it also gives them more safety to farm, allowing them to have more space and freedom to catch up to you. many instances, you see higher level players just let a wave enter a tower and they walk off. very rarely will a good player just sit there and hit a tower before 10min. its much more efficient to farm other camps
As a support main in most cases (I.e. the holy trinity of dps, tank n support) you can often feel the flow of a game or run or whatever more so than if you are a simple yet humble bragging dps or the pushlord tank. I like games where I feel like we've earned that victory I.e. 49/51. As opposed to the 10/90 steamrolls. In the games where the flow is good, we all played well including the enemies yes the better plays should win and of c9urse in 1v1s the better plays should win. I can tell when I've done good or bad in my games as a support n when I've done bad we should lose and have lost. It's the whole "Git Gud Scrub".
A good come back mechanic in a competitive scene that literally NO BODY complains about is the econ in valorant. Upon losing a round you gain a base amount of i believe 1900 creds, after losing 2 in a row you gain 2700 cred, then after losing 3 in a row you gain 3200 creds (Numbers may be slightly off). This allows the losing team to have a buy round even if they lose over and over again, which allows them to combat the enemy teams snowball buy rounds. If this didn't exist the losing team would be forced into repitive save rounds because of not winning, which if the enemy played perfectly could lead to one team needing to save for an entire half. This comeback mechanic is technically "unfair" since they are gaining an advantage via losing, but no body complains since it makes the (already very snowbally game) more fair in letting a team getting snowballed have a chance to fight back
A mistake in a fighting game is something that allows your opponent to get advantage or reclaim neutral. And letting them get advantage can lead to you losing your stock or the game and most fighting games are extremely advantage heavy where if you make just one mistake suddenly you just lose. There are others like ultimate which are more neutral heavy but it tends to be more boring for experienced players when the game is neutral heavy. So when they say the mistake is not approaching is right the mistake is not approaching correctly and letting your opponent have his preferred zone it is unrewarding for newer players but for more experienced players it’s extremely fun and you can’t really cater to both without alienating both audiences so most devs cater to themselves and make a game they enjoy instead of something others will. Which then tends to be more punish heavy because against good players landing a hit is extremely hard and you should be able to convert into a kill or hard punish because letting them get out unsaved resets neutral letting them setup and that’s why smash characters like Steve kazuya and smash 4 bayo were so hated it was because of the neutral heavy game that surrounded them. So when everyone is using sticks and stone bringing an intercontinental missile to the fight is no fun for anyone besides the guy with the nuke. Basically this is to say making mistakes in fighting games is playing non-optimally because of how 1 on 1 combat works. In team games this is also true but since the 1v1s tend to turn into 2v1s or dps against support or dps vs tank etc the match is messy that it’s hard to notice because of all the external factors and only characters that are meta centric can be noticed as broken due to the sheer volume of people experiencing that character. In fighting games it’s much more focused but there is a lot less depth meaning people have been scraping away at the bottom for a while, while in team based games they are still finding new depths to their games.
YOMI Hustle has a bunch of cool comeback mechanics, like making combos deal less damage and knock you back further the more hits are dealt or allowing you to send your opponent flying to essentially reset back to neutral. In fact, most of the game centers around whether or not you can get your opponent to waste these things or applying so much pressure that they cannot get them back quick enough!
40:35 it's not super beginner friendly, but an easy fighting game I enjoy is called your only move is hustle, and it's gimmick is that it's turn based to give you time to think on your moves. it's still a fighting game but leans more into the strategy aspect that I find more enjoyable because it doesn't take 200 hours to learn the basics
@9:45 League of Legends does something similar - or at least, it's known that it used to way back, and I assume every competitive assymetric game does something similar. However, it's not that the system is like "it's okay to pair more uneven matchups because the map/game/etc has this imbalance that we can use to correct it" -- at least, the way I understood it instead was that the system tried to find the most fair balance of teams still, but then would look at the average MMR of both teams that it arrived at, and would assign which side of the map to put each team on based on who had the lower MMR getting the higher winrate side of the coinflip then - in League this meant purple team was always the "higher MMR" team, but only by a tiny tiny bit.
29:30 it takes more technical skill to use a sniper effectively then any fighting character, one is pressing buttons(not to downplay, some players are incredible) the other requires advanced hand eye coordination in a 3D environment
my favourite comeback mechanic-esque thing in fighting games is instant kill moves in persona 4 arena ultimax, if you've won once in a first to 2 rounds, and you're at half or lower health, you can use an ik that could miss with massive penalty but could just win you the game
4:21 Huh switch primary and secondary fire on heroes, interesting I should try this with Hanzo I just can never get used to that hold and let go to fire.
32:29 rivals has a comeback mechanic in capturing the point. The first team has to win through overtime, whereas the second team doesn't have too if they manage to come back and win 100-99 with no over time
20:07 To put it into perspective with Widow, the mistake would be how you play the character *on top* of what character you play. In fighting games most people learn to play either a similar character, or a counterpick. That would be like learning to play Widow as well, or learn how to play Ball specifically to win against Widow. The only reason you would stay on a “losing matchup” is if you’re confident in your abilities (eg Genji deflect or Zen full charge), or you can’t play anything else.
"I know that sounds bad". Understandable reaction. EDIT: as someone who joined Overwatch in the season before moira dropped and already had problems with symetra and winston by trying to one trick genji (and yes, even torb turret was my base) I considered moira to be a hero too easy to get value from and the disparity in skill required for some heroes killed my competitiveness in overwatch completly. Brig cemneted my decision. I went from "I cant wait to learn some cool and super hard stuff with this hero" to "I dont think there is a point to it" and finally to "I may play this game casually sometimes".
13:08 I'm always talking about this. Similarly, when I play COD ranked and you get those teammates that only com to complain (after its too late) or are just bringing a negative vibe to the team from the very beginning. It's like if you really wanted to win, you would have been making coms the whole time. When has (being toxic to teammates) ever helped win the game?? But they act like they desperately want to win. C'mon man..
35:57 yeah, and it's so busted that on tracks with a lot of shortcuts it's often better to "bag" or wait until you are far enough back to guarantee good items and then use them on shortcuts to come back and win at the last second.
"The harder I work the luckier I get" is the best quote I can think of for RNG in games because if you're a good player you'll always be in a position to capitalise on the luck you could get
The other thing about having things like rng, matchups, and catchup, mechanics exist in games is that these things also protect people's egos. It gives you something easy to pick on to explain why you lost without directly attacking your opponent.
Never really played fighting games but the last tekken game really got me watching a bunch of youtube videos of people playing. Hell, I almost bought it
1:36 this reminds me of the blueLock explanation for "luck". That Luck isnt just something that happens without any control but that you yourself can bring yourself into a position to profit of Luck.
There is a league of legends player named Azzapp who has a good mentality when it comes to this question/debate which is that it's not about winning or losing, but about being consistent in your performance and improvement. Regardless of if you win or lose, if you consistently focus on yourself and improve at the game you WILL climb, even if you sometimes get stuck going through 10 loss streaks and hypertrolled games, as long as you are playing above your rank you will climb out of it.
id love to watch flats give MK1 or MK11 a good shake for a few days. It feels overwhelming when you first get into fighting games, but when you really try it opens up your brain to new methods of thinking about fighting strategy and way faster then i was ever capable of doing it before. Playing fighting games made me the gamer i am in any game.
My take is the better player should always win but the “better player” isn’t always making the best play or you could say the better player in the specific situation should always win
The main comeback mechanics in mobas are basically just distance and the stronger defenses closer to home. If tower 2 is harder to take down than tower 1, and it's further from spawn, and its easier to jump players on your side of the map, this all leads to a higher likelihood of back and forth games.
An actual comeback mechanic in overwatch would be akin to, well, the entirety of clash. You lose C, have defenders advantage for regrouping on B.... and get even on the board for taking your free obj
If it rolls around again, Flats should give the Sajam Slam a shot. It's proven to be a great environment to do some solid learning based on transferrable skills.
Going to the axl example it would be like shooting a grav when you have no teammates. It seems like getting too close is a small mistake but in fighting games your position relative to your oppent is the driver of 80% of every choice you make
18:26 I guess thats what Riot has been trying to do recently with the lane swapping strategy so it is less prevalent in comp (apparently not only is it frustrating, but also has become boring to watch). The problem is that it affects casual players who might not have the intent of using that specific strategy (you can't try and help another lane in the first 3 minutes or so and you are also forbidden from invading the enemy jungle it seems. Both of which are not the full scope of the competitive lane swap strat). 20:05 I think I can think of a tank 1v1 scenario that represents a Zoner (long range) Vs Grappler (close quarters combat) fight: Junker Queen vs Rein (any tank versus Rein to be honest). Rein has 2 fire strikes he can throw at long range but the chance of it missing a target increases with distance. It is also not that fast. He has a charge to close distance but to pin someone, in theory, it's harder at longer range (in theory because hitboxes are weird). And he might pin an unintended target and if he doesn't pin anyone or stops in time, he has a small animation to get his bearings back, which can count as waisting precious time. His Ult is great to cover his weaknesses but it has to be earned somehow. Rein is a melee character who has a shield to stay safe. Junker Queen and many other tanks are long or medium ranged with their weapons. JQ has a knife that gives her lifesteal basically, and ignoring the tank passive she could drag a fleeing Rein back towards her (why you would want that, is a different story). She has overhealth with her shout and that acts like a shield (not as impressive as Rein's). In a 1v1, JQ would be the zoner. If the Rein is not using his shield, she has a huge target to shoot and throw a knife at, activating her passive. She has enough sustain to survive a pin and at close range she has a small survivor tool, her axe which also procs her passive. Her Ult is great to cover distance and make the Rein have to use his shield until he isn't debuffed anymore. Aside from Fire Strike and his Ult combo, theoretically the Rein is at a disadvantage in this 1v1 and would lose. In a 5v5 or 6v6 scenario, this probably changes. But for the sake of an example, JQ is the zoner and Rein the grappler
also theres a great degree of chance to even non rng games if you think about it but it should level out over multiple games. one game never decides anything unless its on the world stage and even then it needs to be a set or match to really showcase anything.
Reason I love Magic the Gathering's "commander" game mode is because who wins is ultimately random. Skill and deck can heavily weight it in your favor depending on others skill levels or their deck powers. But in a roughly even deck power level between all 4 players, skill wont always save you due to 3 other players being able to gang up on you and push you back down. Its king of the hill, a little randomness of drawn cards, and individual mannerisms that can heavily swing a game in/against your favor just off whim. Im arguably the highest skilled player in my magic group, but I often lose due to being a less aggressive deck builder and having a lot of self imposed restrictions. Another player in the group is a more creative deck builder than ill ever be and wins due to being "unassuming" and not requiring attention/resources majority of the game. Which leads to them winning often by just being last of two players and scoops the win last second. The "best player" doesnt always win. For me, as long as my deck "does its thing" then Im happy regardless if i win or not.
Chess is solved with 8 total pieces on the board. The data for this is over 5 petabytes I think, so solving a game with 64 chess pieces is technically possible but feasibly impossible
It's nice to see him with a smile. Go look at him and play overwatch 6 months ago. It's night and day. Keep it up, my guy. If you truly enjoy what you do, we enjoy it as well.
Edit - fixed punctuation error
Honestly yeah
Did not know flats before the marvel rivals content. But seeing these comments makes me happy for him
@washedtoohot It's so cool seeing people who are finding him through Rivals. He was like a lot of Overwatch players at the time. He knew what the game could be, but it just wasn't. This game is new and refreshing with responsive devs
He was kinda stuck. He knew ow was fucked but he also knew thats the only thing ppl would watch from him. Rivals gave him a way out
Literally had 9 games in a row with cheaters 😒 how do you have fun playing a game like that
Battlefield 1 had somewhat a comeback mechanic. The losing team would get those big vehicles (zeplin, train, or battleship) to help even out the playing field
I think it worked well tbh, it was a spectacle moment and it kinda made your brain not hate it as much, it felt less cheesy is a better way to put it.
@IGazeWithin It changed the flow of combat, making matches more interesting, which in turn made them more fun. It wasn’t overpowered either, because they could only have the vehicle on 1 objective at a time, and it could be destroyed, so the winning team could try to focus and destroy it, or focus other objectives and avoid the dreadnought and still win if they hold other objectives well enough. Also, yeah, the spectacle of it made it super fun as well. Having the zeppelin blow up and crash onto an objective and change the topography of the map was awesome.
Battlefield in general is one of those games that has never felt too frustrating to me, because when you die, you jump right back in at a spawn location of your choice, with a class/loadout of your choice. Keep getting hammered by tanks? Switch assault and focus on blowing them up. Snipers in a lighthouse gunning down your allies every time you try to approach? Respawn in a bomber and try to blow the lighthouse up. I also don’t recall there ever being a competitive mode in Battlefield, and you’re a small fraction of your team, so I never felt pressured to sweat my ass off, and even when I’d lose, I’d often have still had fun.
Some were definitely better than others.
The Zeppin and Battleship behemoths were godsends but man the tank from the french dlc was mid
@SmokeyOwOs The train wasnt very good either, people just lined the track with AT mines at a general blind spot
Massive immersion points there too. It always felt like such a big moment facing down this sudden looming titan of machinery. There would always be dedicated hunter squads form just to dismantle them as fast as possible.
Seeing this makes me want to see Flats participate in the next Sajam Slam with Eskay and KarQ now.
He’d actually pick up fighting games pretty fast imo. If it’s sf6 or Strive, he could potentially learn pretty decently. The skills are kinda transferable
I dono'd him once about him trying fighting games, he said he's not really interested in the genre sadly.
Flats would low key make a great noob stomping Gief or Honda lol
If he play T8 he probably pick Jack or Bears
If it's SF6 he probably pick Zangief or Edmund
He absolutely should try it. I think he would have a ton of fun.
Lots of stuff Paladins did back in the day.
Symmetrical game mode, where each team fought for a point, and the team that caps then pushes a payload.
Gain more ult charge for killing someone based on how high there kill streak was.
Paladins was so underrated and its really a shame what happened to it
0:50 In a team game, asking "did the better player win?" is the wrong question, it becomes "did the better team win?" Which is a harder answer to quantify, because it has to take into account not just the individual skill of every player, but each teams ability to communicate & work together. Then you get into situations like "does this single players ability on one team surpass the entire ability of the other team?"(A carry; though presumably the higher on the skill tree you are the less likely that is to happen.)
19:57 very accurate description of fighting good zoners in fighting games. You could think of a widow“missing” as a zoner having bad spacing or missing an anti air or both even.
A super simple way you can think a good fighting game character vs a bad character is options divided by interactions. More options to do damage and less amount of hits(interactions) to win the game
As much as i deem the play style stale, boring and frankly uncreative. I can't argue it takes some level of skill you out range your opponent. There are ways around it. Imo, there is no way around a Teammate who wont swap, can't process the team fight, refuse to conduct most basic team cooperation.
@TacticalReaper56 unless the fight game is unbalanced and you are in strive season1 HC and the zoner beats you in RPC upclose as well
@cuddlingfemboysirlI’m so glad I didn’t play against peak HC, that dude sounds like season 1’s boogeyman
So about that widow analogy, you have more options than you think. Like baiting a shot or flanking. You have options the skill is knowing how to use it and using it correctly
To answer the question about chess being “solved,” no it isn’t. Checkers is solved but chess is still evolving especially at the human level. Even engines still lose to other engines.
That could just come down to a better engine, chess very much is solved you just have to account for human error that you wont always get the right answer
@CurseNemesis solved means there’s an objective way to force a win or draw, and there isn’t.
@CurseNemesis From the opening there’s ways to “force” draws by both players not blundering/playing bad moves. When someone makes a bad move, then a win can be seen but even to get to that point could take hundreds of moves to exploit the weakness or it still ends in a draw. You still can’t force a win or draw from certain positions so it’s still not solved
@CurseNemesis the strongest engine in the world has only solved the game up to 7 pieces left. There are just too many variations with 32 pieces
@CurseNemesis It's not even remotely close to being solved
Marvel rivaals has what im calling a "player experience comeback mechanic" by giving you a bot match if you go on a losing streak in quick play.
That helps with player retention but I wouldn't call it a "comeback mechanic".
The bots are so obvious though 😅 it just makes me feel worse cuz i went on an L streak so the game threw me a bone 😂
I'd say Rival's comeback mechanic is keeping ultimates between rounds. Being able to wipe the enemy with ults right out of the spawn room, because your team could never get out of spawn in the previous round, can help worse players get to experience being in the lead for at least a little while.
@ You only keep ults in the capture the hill gamemode. Both teams keep their ult charge and go back to spawn when the round changes. Both teams benefit from it equally.
Comeback mechanics specifically refer to things the benefits people who are actively worse like in Mario Kart. If you are in the lead you only get coins and a single banana from boxes but if you are last you get things like bullet bill or the gold star which are both absurdly powerful tools.
@nadaburner X-Factor in UMvC3 also counts as a comeback mechanic despite both players having access to it at all times. It's just stronger if you use it on your last character than when you have 2 or 3. Similarly, teams that are winning confidently can use their ult right out of spawn on the second round, but they'd probably see it as a waste when they won so many fights without ults in the previous round. Plus, the winning team usually uses some ults to secure the round to prevent overtime shenanigans.
The system benefits the losing players more most of the time, so it could be seen as a comeback mechanic.
11:00 ImMarksman explained this really well once before. If the game tried to balance the lobbies with an 80/100 but he is 100/100 then his team will probably be filled with 60-70 and the other than team all 80. It can be really frustrating for the high level player having lower skilled team mates. I think the MMR is always something trying to balance it in that way.
He abuses game mechanics and bugs. I really don’t care what his opinions are.
@Yerocco he calls attention and gets them fixed faster, if it wasn't for him they'd take far longer to get fixed
@MysticMack47 I mean he’s in the know. He could just let them know. No need to make a video on how to do it if it’s just to bring attention.
@Yerocco He's gotta make content, and him bringing attention to it, is what gets it fixed so fast. I hate to say it but Marksmen isn't the biggest voice in fps games anymore
The Mei/Soujourn mouse swaps make sense, but being used to CoD for so many years it is built into my mind that right click is associated to aim better for using iron sights/scopes
except that in cod when you ads it changes both your fov and mouse sensitivity whereas is overwatch it does neither. A lower sensitivity on top of a smaller fov causes an increase of precision that you wont get in overwatch in which case its similar to hip fire and I guarantee if you're hip firing in cod it will be easier with left clicking and not right clicking.
The talk about grapplers/zoners being intentionally kneecapped is so funny because potemkin is inarguably top tier and arguably top 1 in current patch.
While he should probably be nerfed... but as a Pot player. May god have mercy on my enemies, for i will not and I must bust
johnny the "zoner" and pot being top 2 lmao. Would be funny af if venom is top tier, probably going to be another dizzy situation because those 2 are quite similar on how they play in xrd and there kits being "xrdy" (both setplay zoners) Venom is either going to be to 5 or going to sit with dizzy and zato at bottom 3. I am very interested on how they implement venom into strive.
@WatrWizz man im so sad Dizzy is bottom 2. She was my main in Xrd and I feel a big thing that could help her is her double air dash
Didn't Nago and Happy chaos still win the last few big tournaments? Imo might speak to potemkins tournament viability. Yet everyone is very upset he is this good regardless
@Doople yes they did. But as a Pot main I do feel his buster is too good atm. I'm fine with it loosing it's range thanks to Kara's being back
"in a 1v1 game that will always be true....."
Me praying my top deck the card I need
"please be infernity archfiend please be infernity archfiend its ash blossom gg go next"
Yugioh in a nutshell.
Damn I summoned 5 times? Guess my field is getting wiped by Nibiru.
Asuka R#
I get what youre saying here, but also in CCGs you build your own deck. There's an element of RNG, but you had a chance to manipulate the odds before the game even started.
A quick note about Mario Kart and competitive integrity: While the competitive integrity of Mario Kart isn't super high, it's nowhere near as low as 99% of people think it is (at least for MK8DX, it's the only one I've played competitively). Sure, people in the back get better items, but at a high level, you can just go to the back, get some good items, and then comeback and win. Items add a whole new dimension to the gameplay with balancing the risk of being super far back with the potential reward that you get from the items.
It literally encourages players to just sit back. I seen videos where nobody will go because they want to be in Last place.
@31:40 a great example is revenge from for honor. It rewards a player's ability to anti-gank, so it feels fair to the gankers because it takes a lot of skill
I think Flats shouls try out fighting games someday, contrary to what he says in 40:23, getting into fighting games is not that hard, i got into them while studying in college with no prior expereience or knowlegde, and Eskay is also a pretty good example of being able to learn them in a "short" amount of time. Heck, with a bit of luck, if Flats is interested in getting into them, he could even try to get into a Sajam Slam (idk how streamers are selected to play in it, but with Eskay having participated in the last 2 SF6 slams she could maybe try to talk to sajam about Flats)
I know you probably mean well, but why should he have to do something he says he doesn’t want to? This happens every time chat asks him his opinion on something. Not everyone has to like what you like
he was talking about the issues with widowmaker and having to chose between peeking and not playing the game made me think of TF2 and the sniper in that game. In tf2, the sniper can quick scope one-shot 5 out of 9 of the classes in the game (barring certain unlocks) and can one shot any class in the game even through medic over health (except fist of steel heavy) with a fully charged shot. I mention this because i was thinking of how widow is kept in check by the existence of heroes who excel at getting close to the widow, but tf2 has limited options for this, with the only classes that can most safely and consistently challenge snipers, spy and scout, are limited by map design in scouts case, and being a bad class in spy's case, which leads a good sniper on a map with longer sightlines and limited flank routes (a lot of them) will dominate a lobby.
Plus shield tanks make is so that you can move through a line of sight without getting your head popped off. Not to mention all the movement abilities.
yeah sniper is far more of an issue than widow has ever been. it doesn’t help that the popular maps are the ones he excels in
Demo and soldier can jump with explosives to sniper, it costs hp but it's still worth mentioning. Sniper that is too far back is especialy vulnrable to that because his team won't be able to help him immediatly.
Shounic did an experiment where he removed Sniper from the game, and all it did was make the game less frustrating and make people team fight more often
25:38 I see people saying Iron Fist is OP and needs nerfs and Wolverine sucks and needs buffs, those being the 2 sides of the coin
As a pretty dedicated i-no main guilty gear player, I think marvel rivals lowkey mastered the same fairness & character mastery feeling i get playing fighting games. This esp felt true going from hardstuck ow silver to mr gm. Yeah ironman CAN counter magik, but the matchup becomes easier when i improve and am able to just dash him in the air. Marvel rivals also kinda adopted the guilty gear balance philosophy that “if everyone is broken, no one is!” Characters like Namor and Peni do hard counter magik, and it is easier to just switch, but similar to fighting games, the skill ceiling is nearly infinite. In ow this was really only a few characters, but nearly the entire cast of marvel rivals has a lot to them.
i really have to question that statement about skill ceilings because that's not at all true of overwatch and MR has some incredibly low floor low ceiling characters as well (iron fist, scarlet witch etc)
@LauraLovesHugs Overwatch fan spotted
@captainmega6310 not really, i just think a lot of people have some very whack takes on mivals.
@captainmega6310 Um, hes telling the truth lmao
@libanscekei8942not really, fighting games also have low skill/beginner friendly characters
Eddventure video ??? Let’s gooooo
Been watching Eddventure for years now. Cool to see flats react to a vid!
9:16 So hopefully he will see this comment, last season in League of Legends, it was revealed that blue side was so much better than red side. In order to compensate for that asymmetry, they made the player from the red team be higher elo than the ones on the blue team. They screwed up big time and made them way too good compared to their blue side counter part and everyone had a higher wr on red than blue. It was a 5% difference for literally everyone.
Flats and Eddventure, FPS and FGC crossing over, its beautiful
29:00 Yea, it stems from the preception in the difference between "physical skill" (Being able to aim your mouse) and other types of skill like "game knowledge." The fact that hero shooters are at the end of the day still "shooters" means that there will always be a portion of the playerbase that holds "can click heads" as the highest value skill.
i just drove myself crazy wondering why i felt like ive seen this video before and its because i watched it live
With the mouseswaps, I feel like it really depends on the person.
For console at least, it feels even more convoluted sometimes. Depending on the hero, some of the abilities feel so unnatural. Most console players feel more comfortable with active functions on their right. Shooting, grenades, jumping, reloading, ult, crouch, aiming, ect. Left hand usually controls a lot less(mostly just walking direction) while waiting for something else.
But there are other players who grew up learning to spread inputs because it's hard as hell to constantly jump around with A and aim decently at the same time(also why i think console aim is so much different with flicking/tracking than pc). For me, I had to go through every hero and swap my abilities to make my brain comfortable. I love mystery queue, so having everyone feel, in terms of controls, as similar as possible definitely helps.
Also helps when I want a random couple games of CoD, after I get clowned on as any vertical hero, because I never got comfortable as a bumper jumper.
the first game i thought about with comeback mechanics was league of legends, bounties on players who are rolling a killstreak and objective bounties, like when you fall a certain amount of gold behind the enemy team, they put bounties on turrets for the losing team so that getting one turret is worth the same gold as getting 1.5 turrets was for the team ahead earlier in the game. which can lead to very wacky outcomes since league of legends is a 5v5 game, you can have one player on the losing team being ahead of EVERYONE on the winning team since they played better than the person in their somewhat isolated lane, and if they get too far ahead in lane, even someone coming to help making it a 2v1 can just end up giving the poerson even more of a lead, and since its a very income based game where you get stronger with the items you buy from the gold gained by killing enemies taking objectives and farming the AI lane minions, it can work out in such a way that you have a team ahead by only a few thousand gold can lose entire team fights cause one guy on the losing team is ahead of everyone on the winning team by about 3000 gold. it happens ALOT in lower ranked games with noob stomp characters.
This is true but this because mobas are not designed with bad players in mind they are unironically playing a completely different game
Holy shit Flats and FGC didn't think I'd see it 😂😂
Nice to watch your content that isn’t strictly rivals. Keep it up my guy one of my most watched creators now.
The stark contrast joke was so simple but good at the same time
My favorite comeback mechanic is from Battlefield 1, with the Behemoth/Elite Kits. It was always so unbelievably awesome when in a 32v32 a side that falls behind gets an Airship L30 Zeppelin, a Battleship, an Armored Train, Massive 2C tank, or the flame trooper in cqb maps. Ah that game was always so fun.
8:00 Its only "solved" for the endgame aspect where players have barley any pieces left.
Realistically no human ever will know a solved game of chess with any 8 pieces (from what the computer currently got solved)
An interesting perspective on this comes from the cardgame realm. The creator of Magic: the Gathering once said that the optimal win rate in a competitive game between someone a player and someone one tier below them in skill is 80%.
The main reason for this is to create a kind of ladder system where weaker players can learn from players better than them without being overwhelmed by the sensation that they're getting completely crushed and have no shot of victory. The idea is that at top level events, players can just play more games to make up for the variance that leads to this possibility, and that the benefit of growing the game is far more valuable to the scene as a whole.
Yep, I just recently changed the primary and secondary fire on a lot more heroes, besides sojourne and Mei, and I've hit way more kuni on kiriko now than before by shooting with my pointer finger and healing with my middle. Can help depending~
And the whole map thing makes a bit of sense, when you have things like reversals and expected, where you're favored but you lost, or you were favored but you won. Same with consolation and uphill battle, where you weren't favored but you lost, or you weren't favored but you won~ (Talking about OW mind you)
30:03 XQC raging about wolverine on Marvel Rivals be like
32:32 I'd say the comeback mechanic in overwatch is built into the maps; in that the more you are losing the closer to spawn the fight is, thus giving less time for people to rejoin the fight. (granted it's a small one.)
That VR earthbending fighting game Rumble is actually a really interesting example of game balance. There is a seemingly very limited move set (5-6 types of rock, 3 movement abilities, 3 modifiers, 3 attacks, and several ability stones; of which you pick like 1 or 2) but the ways that everything interacts physics-wise (and the fact that once you are out of the tutorial there's only really random matchmaking) has caused the community to develop move-sets that come out of combos, and entire fighting styles that weren't specifically intended by the devs.
@20:10 "raughs is zangief" love that lmao
You defiantly have some sound takes, I appreciate the insight your commentary brought to the video. You earned my sub👍
A huge comeback mechanic not discussed or barely at the end is MOBAs like league for example. The bounty system, be it through objective bounties that reward the losing team or scoring a kill on a player who was doing very well and amounted their own bounty, it keeps the losing team in the game through rewarding them for making small victories into something that can mount a comeback and are generally considered to be a healthy system for the game by most accounts
Yeah, but in league there’s a direct increase in power as a reward for killing players, which allows you to snowball heavily, so it makes sense to give a higher reward for killing a player that is literally more powerful than you. Technically a come back system, but the winning player has also received a benefit from playing well. This would never work in overwatch (except stadium) because getting a benefit for playing worse would just be unfair since playing better doesn’t give you a direct advantage, it’s just skill.
We love eedventure!! That's my goat, tournament champion and video essay master? Need I say more?
More times than not the better player should win. There's obvious gray area like if they're trying, or if the other player is good as well, but for the most part the answer is yes.
5:04 hold up that makes so much sense
Flats you should try a fighting game, you'd like it! if this video made you go "that's so interesting" "that's so smart" then I think you'd have a lot of fun with them. there's not as much to learn as you might think, a lot of it is pretty intuitive :]
Why should he? He doesn’t want to
7:42 Stockfish solved chess
I would love to see you participate in a Sajam slam.
He could also throw out a move at just the wrong range and then get punished for it by the zoner. Sometimes throwing out that long arm is the correct choice to get a counter hit and then close the distance. Fighting games have its own little dance of RPS going the entire time.
Thought it was worth noting that the loudspeaker item in Mario Kart can counter blue shell's. I think counterplay is extremely important when it comes to perception of fairness in comeback mechanics.
hero shooters do have a comeback mechanic, its the fact that defender spawn gets closer to the payload when attackers are at the end, and vice versa. it means that at the start attack has the advantage as they can come in mid fight after a respawn and reinforce quicker, and then at the end defense gets that same boost
Mario Kart and Smash Bros are both examples on how the best player not always winning can make games fun. There is so much RNG and crazy scenarios that can happen that make the games extremely fun and open the door for a lesser player to come out on top.
The unpredictability is thrilling and the sales of each game shows that’s something lots of people enjoy
Fun factoid: Punk (the player in that EVO Street Fighter clip in the beginning of the vid) has been chasing that victory for a long time. He'd always come close, taking around 2nd and 3rd every year, and is probably one of the only American player keeping up with the rest of the world, right up there with the Japanese, Korean, and a couple of Pakistani and Dominican Republic players. So, it's a suuuuuuuuper huge win.
yea MOBAS typically have comeback mechanics, usually if a play is higher level, you gain more experience and gold for killing them than if they kill you. theres even sometimes a “bounty” system so to speak where a play on a killstreak or thats doing fairly well, will reward even more gold/exp in conjunction with their higher level. this usually scales quite a bit, i have seen people gain like 2-3 levels just from killing someone that was doing well and if they were low enough level.
also smite has a mechanic where the lowest level player on a team (usually the support in 95% of games) will gain bonus exp when sharing exp and gold. given that they usually only receive assists and will give up farm for their carries. they dont gain a straight bonus, its only for when they split farm with other teammates.
also, at least at higher level of play, destroying towers and objectives could be considered a “comeback” mechanic in some ways. typically, you want to actually avoid taking objectives really early on because the farm it gives you isn’t really worth the pressure you lose on the opponent. it gives the person you lane against an advantage because you have push farther up to farm, making you more susceptible to ganks. it also gives them more safety to farm, allowing them to have more space and freedom to catch up to you. many instances, you see higher level players just let a wave enter a tower and they walk off. very rarely will a good player just sit there and hit a tower before 10min. its much more efficient to farm other camps
2:06 One of the most important skills in high level pokemon is risk management.
Hey, the Mei tip was when he looked at me in bronze XD. I've managed to touch diamond a couple times but I always fall back out of it lol
Mr. Flats should play in the sajam slam!
As a support main in most cases (I.e. the holy trinity of dps, tank n support) you can often feel the flow of a game or run or whatever more so than if you are a simple yet humble bragging dps or the pushlord tank.
I like games where I feel like we've earned that victory I.e. 49/51. As opposed to the 10/90 steamrolls.
In the games where the flow is good, we all played well including the enemies yes the better plays should win and of c9urse in 1v1s the better plays should win.
I can tell when I've done good or bad in my games as a support n when I've done bad we should lose and have lost.
It's the whole "Git Gud Scrub".
A good come back mechanic in a competitive scene that literally NO BODY complains about is the econ in valorant.
Upon losing a round you gain a base amount of i believe 1900 creds, after losing 2 in a row you gain 2700 cred, then after losing 3 in a row you gain 3200 creds (Numbers may be slightly off).
This allows the losing team to have a buy round even if they lose over and over again, which allows them to combat the enemy teams snowball buy rounds. If this didn't exist the losing team would be forced into repitive save rounds because of not winning, which if the enemy played perfectly could lead to one team needing to save for an entire half. This comeback mechanic is technically "unfair" since they are gaining an advantage via losing, but no body complains since it makes the (already very snowbally game) more fair in letting a team getting snowballed have a chance to fight back
A mistake in a fighting game is something that allows your opponent to get advantage or reclaim neutral. And letting them get advantage can lead to you losing your stock or the game and most fighting games are extremely advantage heavy where if you make just one mistake suddenly you just lose. There are others like ultimate which are more neutral heavy but it tends to be more boring for experienced players when the game is neutral heavy. So when they say the mistake is not approaching is right the mistake is not approaching correctly and letting your opponent have his preferred zone it is unrewarding for newer players but for more experienced players it’s extremely fun and you can’t really cater to both without alienating both audiences so most devs cater to themselves and make a game they enjoy instead of something others will. Which then tends to be more punish heavy because against good players landing a hit is extremely hard and you should be able to convert into a kill or hard punish because letting them get out unsaved resets neutral letting them setup and that’s why smash characters like Steve kazuya and smash 4 bayo were so hated it was because of the neutral heavy game that surrounded them. So when everyone is using sticks and stone bringing an intercontinental missile to the fight is no fun for anyone besides the guy with the nuke.
Basically this is to say making mistakes in fighting games is playing non-optimally because of how 1 on 1 combat works. In team games this is also true but since the 1v1s tend to turn into 2v1s or dps against support or dps vs tank etc the match is messy that it’s hard to notice because of all the external factors and only characters that are meta centric can be noticed as broken due to the sheer volume of people experiencing that character. In fighting games it’s much more focused but there is a lot less depth meaning people have been scraping away at the bottom for a while, while in team based games they are still finding new depths to their games.
More recently: OW Stadium! Bounties on the winning team allow the losing team to close the gap, it’s an exact example comeback mechanic
YOMI Hustle has a bunch of cool comeback mechanics, like making combos deal less damage and knock you back further the more hits are dealt or allowing you to send your opponent flying to essentially reset back to neutral. In fact, most of the game centers around whether or not you can get your opponent to waste these things or applying so much pressure that they cannot get them back quick enough!
40:35 it's not super beginner friendly, but an easy fighting game I enjoy is called your only move is hustle, and it's gimmick is that it's turn based to give you time to think on your moves. it's still a fighting game but leans more into the strategy aspect that I find more enjoyable because it doesn't take 200 hours to learn the basics
@9:45 League of Legends does something similar - or at least, it's known that it used to way back, and I assume every competitive assymetric game does something similar.
However, it's not that the system is like "it's okay to pair more uneven matchups because the map/game/etc has this imbalance that we can use to correct it" -- at least, the way I understood it instead was that the system tried to find the most fair balance of teams still, but then would look at the average MMR of both teams that it arrived at, and would assign which side of the map to put each team on based on who had the lower MMR getting the higher winrate side of the coinflip then - in League this meant purple team was always the "higher MMR" team, but only by a tiny tiny bit.
29:30 it takes more technical skill to use a sniper effectively then any fighting character, one is pressing buttons(not to downplay, some players are incredible) the other requires advanced hand eye coordination in a 3D environment
my favourite comeback mechanic-esque thing in fighting games is instant kill moves in persona 4 arena ultimax, if you've won once in a first to 2 rounds, and you're at half or lower health, you can use an ik that could miss with massive penalty but could just win you the game
Flats for the next Sajam Slam
4:21 Huh switch primary and secondary fire on heroes, interesting I should try this with Hanzo I just can never get used to that hold and let go to fire.
Ok yea, definitely upload your thoughts on Winners/Losers Queue in matchmaking. Super curious to hear your take on that.
32:29 rivals has a comeback mechanic in capturing the point. The first team has to win through overtime, whereas the second team doesn't have too if they manage to come back and win 100-99 with no over time
20:07
To put it into perspective with Widow, the mistake would be how you play the character *on top* of what character you play.
In fighting games most people learn to play either a similar character, or a counterpick. That would be like learning to play Widow as well, or learn how to play Ball specifically to win against Widow. The only reason you would stay on a “losing matchup” is if you’re confident in your abilities (eg Genji deflect or Zen full charge), or you can’t play anything else.
"I know that sounds bad".
Understandable reaction.
EDIT: as someone who joined Overwatch in the season before moira dropped and already had problems with symetra and winston by trying to one trick genji (and yes, even torb turret was my base) I considered moira to be a hero too easy to get value from and the disparity in skill required for some heroes killed my competitiveness in overwatch completly.
Brig cemneted my decision.
I went from "I cant wait to learn some cool and super hard stuff with this hero" to "I dont think there is a point to it" and finally to "I may play this game casually sometimes".
I love Fighter Z but it does have a strong comeback mechanic ESPECIALLY now with the whole limit break changes
13:08 I'm always talking about this. Similarly, when I play COD ranked and you get those teammates that only com to complain (after its too late) or are just bringing a negative vibe to the team from the very beginning. It's like if you really wanted to win, you would have been making coms the whole time. When has (being toxic to teammates) ever helped win the game?? But they act like they desperately want to win. C'mon man..
My Kiriko, Soujourn, and Mei all have right and left click swapped.
Same with my Jeff in Marvel
35:57 yeah, and it's so busted that on tracks with a lot of shortcuts it's often better to "bag" or wait until you are far enough back to guarantee good items and then use them on shortcuts to come back and win at the last second.
Flats I'd genuinely love to watch you play a fighting game. Seeing you out of your comfort zone could be fun :)
The funniest thing to watch on rivals is how ninja doesn't understand why he loses😂 bro its such and enjoyable watch
the truly skilled know how to lose to deny the other person the comeback mechanic then turn it around
My understanding of this was it’s like mega knight decks, and hog 2.6 in clash royale.
"The harder I work the luckier I get" is the best quote I can think of for RNG in games because if you're a good player you'll always be in a position to capitalise on the luck you could get
The other thing about having things like rng, matchups, and catchup, mechanics exist in games is that these things also protect people's egos. It gives you something easy to pick on to explain why you lost without directly attacking your opponent.
Never really played fighting games but the last tekken game really got me watching a bunch of youtube videos of people playing. Hell, I almost bought it
1:36 this reminds me of the blueLock explanation for "luck". That Luck isnt just something that happens without any control but that you yourself can bring yourself into a position to profit of Luck.
There is a league of legends player named Azzapp who has a good mentality when it comes to this question/debate which is that it's not about winning or losing, but about being consistent in your performance and improvement. Regardless of if you win or lose, if you consistently focus on yourself and improve at the game you WILL climb, even if you sometimes get stuck going through 10 loss streaks and hypertrolled games, as long as you are playing above your rank you will climb out of it.
Flats saying nerf spiderman caught in 4k at 18:16
Looking down to read Flats' chat is consistently a treat
id love to watch flats give MK1 or MK11 a good shake for a few days. It feels overwhelming when you first get into fighting games, but when you really try it opens up your brain to new methods of thinking about fighting strategy and way faster then i was ever capable of doing it before. Playing fighting games made me the gamer i am in any game.
I swapped Sojourn's & Kiriko's primary and secondary fire, but never thought of swapping Mei's.
My take is the better player should always win but the “better player” isn’t always making the best play or you could say the better player in the specific situation should always win
The main comeback mechanics in mobas are basically just distance and the stronger defenses closer to home. If tower 2 is harder to take down than tower 1, and it's further from spawn, and its easier to jump players on your side of the map, this all leads to a higher likelihood of back and forth games.
Overtime respawn times would be a comeback mechanic in ow. Same as getting a better spawn point after losing an objective. Looking at you brawl
An actual comeback mechanic in overwatch would be akin to, well, the entirety of clash. You lose C, have defenders advantage for regrouping on B.... and get even on the board for taking your free obj
2:42 as a former Val player, this is the single funniest thing I've ever seen
flats id love for you to try a fighting game on stream. im pretty sure thers a pro who whould be willing to teach you
If it rolls around again, Flats should give the Sajam Slam a shot. It's proven to be a great environment to do some solid learning based on transferrable skills.
Going to the axl example it would be like shooting a grav when you have no teammates. It seems like getting too close is a small mistake but in fighting games your position relative to your oppent is the driver of 80% of every choice you make
18:26 I guess thats what Riot has been trying to do recently with the lane swapping strategy so it is less prevalent in comp (apparently not only is it frustrating, but also has become boring to watch).
The problem is that it affects casual players who might not have the intent of using that specific strategy (you can't try and help another lane in the first 3 minutes or so and you are also forbidden from invading the enemy jungle it seems. Both of which are not the full scope of the competitive lane swap strat).
20:05 I think I can think of a tank 1v1 scenario that represents a Zoner (long range) Vs Grappler (close quarters combat) fight:
Junker Queen vs Rein (any tank versus Rein to be honest). Rein has 2 fire strikes he can throw at long range but the chance of it missing a target increases with distance. It is also not that fast. He has a charge to close distance but to pin someone, in theory, it's harder at longer range (in theory because hitboxes are weird). And he might pin an unintended target and if he doesn't pin anyone or stops in time, he has a small animation to get his bearings back, which can count as waisting precious time. His Ult is great to cover his weaknesses but it has to be earned somehow.
Rein is a melee character who has a shield to stay safe.
Junker Queen and many other tanks are long or medium ranged with their weapons. JQ has a knife that gives her lifesteal basically, and ignoring the tank passive she could drag a fleeing Rein back towards her (why you would want that, is a different story). She has overhealth with her shout and that acts like a shield (not as impressive as Rein's).
In a 1v1, JQ would be the zoner. If the Rein is not using his shield, she has a huge target to shoot and throw a knife at, activating her passive. She has enough sustain to survive a pin and at close range she has a small survivor tool, her axe which also procs her passive.
Her Ult is great to cover distance and make the Rein have to use his shield until he isn't debuffed anymore.
Aside from Fire Strike and his Ult combo, theoretically the Rein is at a disadvantage in this 1v1 and would lose.
In a 5v5 or 6v6 scenario, this probably changes. But for the sake of an example, JQ is the zoner and Rein the grappler
also theres a great degree of chance to even non rng games if you think about it but it should level out over multiple games. one game never decides anything unless its on the world stage and even then it needs to be a set or match to really showcase anything.
Reason I love Magic the Gathering's "commander" game mode is because who wins is ultimately random. Skill and deck can heavily weight it in your favor depending on others skill levels or their deck powers. But in a roughly even deck power level between all 4 players, skill wont always save you due to 3 other players being able to gang up on you and push you back down. Its king of the hill, a little randomness of drawn cards, and individual mannerisms that can heavily swing a game in/against your favor just off whim. Im arguably the highest skilled player in my magic group, but I often lose due to being a less aggressive deck builder and having a lot of self imposed restrictions. Another player in the group is a more creative deck builder than ill ever be and wins due to being "unassuming" and not requiring attention/resources majority of the game. Which leads to them winning often by just being last of two players and scoops the win last second. The "best player" doesnt always win. For me, as long as my deck "does its thing" then Im happy regardless if i win or not.
ID LOVE TO SEE FLATS LEARN A FIGHTING GAME
Chess is solved with 8 total pieces on the board. The data for this is over 5 petabytes I think, so solving a game with 64 chess pieces is technically possible but feasibly impossible
4 months late but I'm begging flats to start his fight game arc. The FGC would welcome you with open arms