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Definitely real

@kphoenix137 Yeah nah. It's for the all normies after they turned to sht. Can't beat punk blink.

@@_wallnutz_ ok

Like, it's obviously somewhat shameful that he faked it but it's crazy how this has all gone

It's important to point out they didn't just do the math; they created a TAS that replicates the exact movements of the Blood Knights surrounding Diablo and deals damage to him at precisely the same intervals down to the frame. Based on the Mana pool, they could infer character levels weren't adjusted but the Fireball damage directly (either added skill points or changed the Fireball damage value). BTW, they do point this out in the actual analysis.

Yup. They have a side-by-side video comparison of a TAS trying to replicate the same kill under the same conditions. Impossible, as the character is guaranteed to run out of HP.

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. These kinds of comments make it all worth it

SDA verifiers at the time seem to have had some uhh. Interesting standards. Obviously the site's very different today, and I can't claim to have been there back then, but this isn't the first odd verification I've seen. Usually it's just crass reasons for run denial or verification, though. SDA really did have some growing pains when it stopped being a dedicated Quake site, it seems.

@@hoodieninja_7203 LotBlind did make a news announcement on SDA when the news broke about this analysis. According to that announcement, what was overlooked by Mike Uyama is that the run was segmented from multiple Diablo versions. It seems SDA verifiers were not informed about using character editors to modify Fireball damage as well as the other external tools for the remaining incongruencies.

Programming the AI would be harder than doing a tas.

Someone will make patch with different RNG algorithm by 2038

Legitimately, yes. You can always set your system time back though.

Its like flat earth, understanding its not flat is one thing, proving it is something else entirely

@@literallyjustgrass They were using mostly the same arguments the guy in this video is using to prove the speedrun non-legit. The reason I feel the need to point this out is to show that the speaker in the video is not using some new-found knowledge about the game to prove the run non-legit, as in the case of Todd Rogers. This could've and should've been caught 15 years ago.

​@@JacekNasiadek oh, yeah, i guess you are right. I wasn't around in speedrunning at the time, but i assume the community was not as invested in catching possible cheaters? There's the sphere of youtubers debunking cheated runs and getting millions of views now, that definitely didnt exist in 2009. Once again i wasnt around so i'm just yapping, do you have any ideas on why it wasnt caught?

@@literallyjustgrass Probably just negligence combined with, as you stated, the fact that speedrunning was not taken as seriously back then. The people responsible for vetting weren't knowledgeable enough to vet correctly and the people who had the knowledge didn't bother explaining to the people responsible for vetting, or were ignored.

Intent is harder to prove. Not defending his actions, but the run does showcase more or less how quickly D1 can be beaten. DwangoAC admits this as well at [41:03].

It could be so that it would not appear in any of the stores to make it easier to navigate them.

I blame defcon

Presentations aren't exactly competitions, though. :P

There is no authority in speedrunning. Everyone can do There is no easy way to verify in all cases what is intended and what is not. So because of that glitches are not disallowed by default by most speedrunners, but instead there are speedrun categories that have to explicitly state which mechanics are disallowed in the rules. So if you want to see a speedrun without duping, just speedrun a game like that and simply add "no dupping" to the video title, no one prevents you from doing that.

There are different categories - glitch/no glitch are pretty common in many games.

What is and isn't allowed is determined by category. There will often be a "no glitches" category (sometimes with debate over what constitutes a "glitch" vs. "intended behavior"), and sometimes more intermediate categories allowing or disallowing specific glitches (usually those that drastically change the nature of a run). But at the end of the day, runners run games for self-fulfillment and entertainment of others - nothing more, nothing less. Categories are formed around the runner community, what they want, and what keeps the experience enjoyable and entertaining.

But duping gold really is how we played this back in the day. It's not some speed running thing.

Depends on the category of speed run. Some games even have multiple categories such as “glitch any%” or “glitchless” ect. Like ff7 has glitchless and “yuffie” yuffie meaning using the yuffie glitch. Also diablo 1…is the game everyone knows for one golden rule; EVERYONE hacks or cheats hardcore.

I think anyone who manipulates in game drops, maps, ability damages and version numbers via coding inputs or file manipulation outside of the game is malicious in intent and I can't think of any valid place this speed run should be published. It's basically a cheaters anthem. Segmented runs should not be alternate maps with editing back in the same gear and drops as the game continues through different maps. He kills diablo on par with what is basically Level 10 fireball with base L1+2(thinking cap) =L3, ok sure. I also really see the ring drop and frame perfect pickup from the portal being an insight into Groobo's mind, that he thinks "showing off/emote dabbing" in such a fashion elevates him over other players. I also can't speak to the teleport staff being non-legitimate, as I've seen it drop in Caves but it's HIGHLY HIGHLY likely it can't be produced as such at such a low level as gear drops have a distinct level threshold. I personally believe the only reason this presenter didn't go hard was out of fear of being sued as he probably doesn't know if this Groobo has resources like Billy Mitchell. I guess who needs the smoke?

The Puzzler drop is possible in dungeon level 9, but there's no instance of that exact level layout occurring in any of the 2 billion game seeds where that lava lord drops it. He tampered with either the rng or the monster drop

It was presented as a segmented run, but a lot of the devious tricks he used that breached the rules were completely missed by a lot of people. Even with a team of people with a deep understanding of the source code, it still took weeks of working on a tool using the source code to really dig deep

​@@kphoenix137Just the frames missing is ridiculous enough that makes any competition pointless. Like he made a cut whenever he wanted missing a few frames, whoops, I should make a run where I cut 99999999 frames and beat Diablo in a second!

@lukkkasz323 exactly. Also it's funny because there have been more discoveries since this video, such as the fact groobo modified the fireball damage algorithm which allowed him to kill Diablo with fewer fireballs. A +4 value was changed to +32 IIRC

No one thought it was "real" at the time tho lol. The thing this video doesn't talk about is how almost all the speedruns of the game were like this at the time, TAS or not aka obviously using file manipulation, different characters, perfect stairs, whatever. The runner isn't submitting a cheated run to a clean category, it was a cheated run among cheated runs in basically a cheat category lol. The digging the team did to disprove this is impressive (read insane), but simply unnecessary because everyone who played the game one time knows its different games with different game files spliced together which was extremely common back then and not out of the ordinary. I feel like the amount of effort that went into researching seeds and reaching out to the runner and Guinness that they surely could've found the archives of an old forum or two were myself and many others learned about modifying files and using hero editor.

@Rudipu You don't understand. A segmented speedrun is supposed to be just a normal playthrough where you reload an insane amount, edit out only the action of pressing Esc to save and reload (RNG manipulation) to obtain a clean and entertaining recording. Splicing together segments from different versions and playthroughs goes completely against the spirit of such competition. For example, why wouldn't you give yourself the ability to teleport from the start if the way you obtain the teleport staff is from an impossible seed by modifying the monster drop with an external tool? Just use the same external tool to put the staff in the vendor's selection - just as impossible in the normal game as your impossible seed. Or, why wouldn't you modify the fireball damage to kill Diablo in one hit if you had already done so through the above means? The answer: to trick your viewers into thinking what you're doing is technically possible. The only excuse you have is creating the video for entertainment purposes that intentionally appears legitimate, but that's clearly not what the SDA rules were at the time. And yet the run was submitted as legitimate and received the "verified no cheating" label.

Oh yes please! I can see Karl talking about this!

Hello you absolute legends ​@phl1psen

I prefer this video to anything Karl puts out. Don’t get me wrong: Karl does some insane work and is great at what he does. He just comes across as a grifter and like he has a sense of superiority to everyone else and it’s off putting.

@@justin9744 Now tell us what flavour of icecream you don't like.

@@justin9744did he uncover you’re cheated speedrun? 😂