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ye 😅 she was mid EBA iirc

shafted. deadly assault shoved it in there. hence i realised my account is bricked. so am i actually. very bricked up.

you can check the damage formula here for more info: zenless-zone-zero.fandom.com/wiki/Damage PEN ratio allows you to ignore a portion of the enemy's DEF when attacking. it's more effective the more of it you stack, and also against enemies with high DEF like these boss enemies

@@kaeggelle thanks for the info! Never expect for it to be actually good

yay twin

i think if you have a rank m6 theyre all about the same (imo billy esp is better than nekomata) but build who you like 👍 i haven't struggled with shiyu yet, and deadly assault is 3 starrable without phys weakness/without relevant performance points. so i think the endgame so far isn't hard enough for characters to be outright "unviable" at least! also, from what ive seen pulchra is an off field stunner so maybe not as good with corin

@@Farweey as the CEO of failing dodges, same

good luck! idt this fight is meant for nekomata tho, considering the buffs...but if it works, it works

nahh, its probably investment level also! im delulu so i all-in'd on nekomata my score for this fight is also lower than previous, i think the buffs are just q meh for nekomata

@kaeggelle yeah maybe and u have different disc drive set. For this I wish I had fire dps.

@@kaeggelle not a single daze or stun window buff is so rough this week

Why? I don't have her and was able to 35k+ every fight

@@Kspice9000i see she giving pretty good buff for attacker type And i lack a lot of other characters so I never get to reach 3 stars on other 2 deadly assault sadly 😅

my astral set has good crit substats on disc2/3 so i just built her crit, i use AP disc 4 when playing shiyu for burst damage. i think both work, shes just a support anyways. intuitively crit should have higher personal damage ceiling considering it also scales off your skill levels, otherwise the game is not balanced

@@WindowsPotato mm, that's my plan for now! qy seems p good for both anton and nekomata...i saw a vid of anton-qy-rina getting 40k 😱😱

There's trigger coming tbh

@ will have to see if trigger is good with anton, she is probably tailored for anby2 though

@ I’m currently think she will synergies better with on field dps’s like S11 and 5*Anby rather then the burst dps’s, granted I could be totally wrong

@@ihadfunplaying as of now, qingyi's stun multipler is 60% higher than trigger, since she is for burst dps rather than trigger seemingly being suited for on-field, so anton probably prefers qingyi

@@_Suprix she got rotated 🤣

@@kaeggelle 😂

@@lura8040 maybe ur right, i think anby also puts out surprising personal damage! unfortunately she's not very invested on my account

I read somewhere that Anton needs shock to be on the enemy for him to do any damage. Anby won't cut it. Anby / Rena / Anton maybe?

​@thineubaut nah it'll be fine. It's double shock comp. Legit doesn't take long to throw it up between the two and if it does then that's why you roll AM%

yessirrr, astra is made for dual dps comps so she sounds insane with anton-grace, sadly im skipping her for either qingyi or anbybitor lunae + trigger

@@kaeggelle Anbybitor luane is crazy

@@NekomataMain ty!! i was legit going insane trying my old setup coz things kept surviving haha...

Hey, first of all thanks for doing an analysis on this! I’m quite grateful that someone is willing to pick apart/check my math for me. *Regarding “diminishing returns”:* Your issue with this seems to be a semantic one, so sorry if I used the term incorrectly. I'm not a mathematician/economist, I’ve seen this term thrown around before so I used it. However the phenomenon that you describe where you “lose dmg the more you go up on a stat” seems to be negative returns and not diminishing returns? I don't think I suggested that you actively lose damage as you invest more, just that the relative gain in damage is lower if you have already invested a lot in said stat I mean this in the sense that your disc 5 atk% or dmg% “means less” if you have more of the stat stacked already. Semantics aside unless I’m missing something the point still stands? Adding 30% to 200% (330/300) is less relatively significant than adding 30% to 60% (160/130). From a different point of view also, since everything is multiplicative adding 30% to a less saturated stat results in more gains overall. E.g. 1.3 * 1.9 > 1.0 * 2.2 *Regarding your point about combat atk%:* Good catch! I’m using the same damage formula on the wiki, just didn’t think about it LOL. In hindsight yes, my wording is misleading and seems to suggest that in a vacuum atk% is better than dmg% which is clearly not the case no matter how high combat ATK% is as multiplication is commutative (how I let this slip idk) On a side note though, the formula is Stat = [(BaseATK * ATK% * CombatATK%) + FlatATK], hence why I say “Flat ATK dilutes ATK% gains” (this doesn’t detract from your point, just that the formula you wrote is a bit wrong) *Regarding PEN Ratio:* I mentioned this “threshold” idea in this video but didn’t expand on it. To remedy this I actually have another video where I showcase a shitty damage calc app I wrote to explore enemy DEF and compare disc 5 stats based on that + existing buffs. However a commenter on that video also pointed out that the enemies we care about the most (bosses/elites) have high DEF anyway, so PEN is pretty good! You can just link your friend's google sheet all the same! It would help anyone who happens to come across it

​@@kaeggelle hehee, ty for reading my wall of text 😉, i hope you're havin' a nice monday (bad monday for me tho ^^, if the leaks are true we're gettin' mockingbirds instead of idol faction on 1.6 😪) About the diminishing return part, this is indeed "negative return" but it's just the part that comes after the diminishing return on the graphic composed of 3 parts; "diminishing returns" is most often used in economics and doesn't apply here for dmg calculation. But indeed it's best to stack up on a stat multiplier that isn't already pretty "full" , but in the game rn we don't rly have a lot of choice for disc5, it's dmg bonus or PENratio% (as atk% will never be better) and for PEN ratio% there is indeed that treshold that you have to hit in order for it to be better than dmg bonus%; but you have to hit that treshold and it's not that easy. And as you said in the video, if you're using nicole that already shred def then it can throw your penratio% that's why rina is prefered if running on penratio. For the dmg formula thing i'm still pretty sure it's (BaseATK * ATK% + FlatATK) * in combat atk% , and it can be tested in the game actually (thing that i did to sopport my point) first test with my anton lvlv20, no discs and only the brimstone(lvl60) equipped (1 stack of brinstone = 3.5% in combat atk) - without the brimstone buff i'm sitting at 1257 atk on the detailed stat sheet - with the brimstone buff (1stack) i'm now at 1257 + 44 on the detailed stat sheet if i manually check by running a quick math : - 283 (my anton's base atk) + 684 (my brinstone base atk) * (1+30%) (from the brimstone atk% main stat) = 1257,1 - 3,5% off 1257,1 is = 43,9985 (so basically 44 since the game ajust to the top value in that case) so we can see rn that te formula without any flat atk works : " (character ATK + wengine ATK) * ATK%) * in combat atk% " Now let's test with flat atk in the mix, same satup but i'll add a drive disc 2 lvl0 (79 flat ATK) (with hp/def%/def flat/pen as substats so no interference from the substats in our formula) in game : - 1336 atk on the detailed sheet without the brimstone buff - with the brimsrone bufff : 1336 + 47 on the detailed stats sheet - total 1383 after the addition Quick math check : - 283 (anton's base atk) + 684 (brinstone base atk) * (1+30%) (brimstone atk% main stat) = 1257,1 - 1257,1 + 79 (flat atk from disc 2) = 1336,1 - 1336,1 * 3,5% = 46,7636 (so, our +47 since the game ajusts up once again) - total 1382,8636 after the addition (1383 since the game ajust to top value) the formula " (BaseATK * ATK% + FlatATK) * in combat atk% " does in fact, work. if we try to apply your formula now " (BaseATK * ATK% * CombatATK%) + FlatATK " - 283 (anton's base atk) + 684 (brinstone base atk) * (1+30%) (brimstone atk% main stat) = 1257,1 - 1257,1 * (1+3,5%) (in combat atk) = 1301,0985 - 1301,0985 + 79(from disc2 flat atk) = 1380,0985 after the addition we clearly see that even if the number is pretty close we're missing at least 2,7651 atk to to hit the value the game shows on the detailed stat sheet, and if i lvl up my disc from lvl 0 to 15 then the difference will be even bigger. actually this is bcs the formula work the way it does that atk% is "less good" than in combat atk or dmg bonus or crit dmg, if there was no flat atk at that exact place in the formula then atk% would as good as a multiplier than the rest, but we know that this isn't the case. idk what you meant with "Flat ATK dilutes ATK% gains" tho 😅😅 Always a pleasure do debate 'bout some theorycrafting with others ^^ have a nice day ☺

@@_Suprix REGARDING FIRST POINT: im advocating for ATK% over DMG% because nekomata already has a lot of DMG% available as mentioned in the video. for nekomata specifically the debate should almost always be between ATK% and PEN% quite sure not sure why you say "atk% will never be better", when i do calcs with typical team/buff setups i still see these results where ATK and PEN win against DMG maybe i'll go test it in game later coz i can kind of see why u would say that... also, the video doesn't concern itself whether atk% is less good than combat atk% or crit or whatever, its purely a disc 5 discussion REGARDING FORMULA: oh, i think i misunderstood, i thought you were talking abt the formula in the video where its COMBAT flat atk! for example caesar/lucy. i also went in game to test this when i read ur first comment :P ofc your flat attack from disc 2 and substats contribute to the static attack im sure ur calcs about static flat ATK are correct but i was referring to combat flat ATK haha...sorry to make u type so much

@@_Suprix REGARDING "DILUTION": having flat attack sources dilutes the effectiveness of atk% (we can see this also in your static ATK calculation actually) for example, with 500 flat atk and 1000 base atk; (1000*1.3+500)/(1000+500)‎ = 1.2 (1000*1.3)/(1000)‎ = 1.3 i actually have an example in the video involving combat flat atk buffs, but the same principle applies! hope all this makes sense

​@@kaeggelle i would like some annotations on the values you use (from where they're from?) and what part of the formula is involved too if ya don't mind ^^

In place of Caesar? Losing Tusks of Fury is a bit of a bitter pill

Since Astra facilitates quickswap comps, I've been thinking it's a new boon to Nekopiper, actually, in place of Lucy.

was lowkey thinking of just pulling for qingyi instead and get m6 nicole along the way...but astra's buffs seem so insane i guess she replaces nicole in the usual neko comps?

for sure, the balance seems good right now at least! i think most f2p teams can comfortably hit 20k coz of the bonus points available unfortunately for nekomata though it seems there isn't going to be a physical weak boss for a while...

would be more peak if i could s rank it :(

Wait nvm I’m dumb I didn’t notice you didn’t have enough energy

@@Rossfellow oh are u talking about the bug where her EX seems to hit some random geometry and disappears?

yeah, probably! but both street superstar and the new f2p engine seems quite good also

@kaeggelle ну хорошо, почти идеальное прохождения ты сильный игрок а я прошел на 25к yanagi greyce soukaka

@@lokonator nice 👍

@@digadeh thanks! my gut tells me that with rina m1 and if ur running puffer 2 piece, disc 5 pen% should almost always be better. (also since boss enemies tend to have high defense anyway)

@@ELIEChan3173 i think guaranteeing the correct character starts the chain is the main reason but in nekomata's case it also allows you to trigger her core passive for her chain attack in case it isn't up when the stun is triggered

good luck!

yeah, guarantees 2 stacks (basically 3 with support ult)!

she's way stronger with those, yeah but ur right...to clear zzz's current 'endgame' rn it doesn't take too much

thanks! yea got like 150 pulls in the back if i decide to pull her 😈😈

im lowkey a nicole glazer so i would say build her, but rina is good too. i used to play anton grace with anby but grace's shocks were getting very diluted so i dropped anby for nicole/caesar! not sure if rina would have a similar issue i think anton is just in a weird spot...his best teams (speed wise) seem to be with qingyi but i dont have her so im coping by playing anton grace. if youre struggling with energy, anton's defensive assist follow up has an insane multiplier AND regens his energy (even in drill mode), i try to use it if i need energy on him i dont have the skill required to play harumasa so not considering right now

other than her sig, starlight engine is rly good too! according to some calcs the damage difference isn't that big between them when considering cushion's inconsistent uptime outside of a stun

@kaeggelle I'm on floor 229 on battle tower. Do you think she can be strong enough to continue? (Asking before I go all out building her)

idk, never really played the battle tower due to skill issue, nekomata has a pretty nice dodge counter though! if ur more comfortable with playing other charas might be better to stick with them :o

​@@S.O.N.G_Universe Flaminski did floor 1000 with SOLO Billy, you can definitely continue with Nekomata! The battle tower is unfortunately just a very long game of "don't get hit."

nice! yep pretty crazy that nicole just gives 40% DEF shred like that with barely any field time

can he actually? i can only manage two clones...but yea his dodge counter is nice it stays on field so long

@@shiroiron sending u where? (jk ty, glad the time i took to ramble wasn't wasted)