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The part where you guys spoke about AA reminded me about Wallace's earnest depiction of it in Infinite Jest. Awesome convo! Thank you

Thatvreally is a pretty stupid belief system. Except the total depravity part. Humans are incapable of good.

The whore was less disgusting than that double predestined heretic.

Religion is one of the most fascinating human creations

Calvinism is what happens when you let a mean French lawyer write your theology.

A lot of caricature, oversimplification and misrepresentation in the comments here. I wonder how many have actually read Calvin? I have, and he sets out his case very well. The issue of predestination (God's Sovereignty) versus human free will is, in my mind, irresolvable. There are Scriptures which can be quoted that support either side. Perhaps the most sensible thing is to accept the mystery, as Job had to? After all our minds are limited and we all suffer from confirmation bias, wanting the thing to be true which will make us feel most comfortable. What makes me tend towards 'Calvinism' (Sovereign election) is the number of conversations I have had with people over the last half century in which otherwise intelligent and reasonable people use the most ridiculous 'arguments' and 'logic' to justify their refusal to engage with what I'm trying to tell them about God and Christ. People, on the whole, are NOT reasonable. It seems to me that individuals only come to Christ when they get pulled by strong arms into the lifeboat.

Christianity is the most fractured religion on the planet. This is just one example

“If you look at anything from the inside, it makes sense.” Damn straight.

But I had come very much to doubt that any such God existed. And it was the problem of suffering that had created these doubts and that eventually led me to doubt it so much that I simply no longer believed it. If God helps his people - why doesn’t he help his people? If he answers prayer, why doesn’t he answer prayer? If he intervenes, why doesn’t he intervene? It was innocent suffering that made me think there is no such God. People who are faithful to God, who devote their lives to him, who pray to him suffer no less than those who are indifferent to God or even scornful toward his existence. When a tsunami kills 300,000 people, the believers are included along with the unbelievers. No difference. When a child starves to death, as happens every seven seconds, her prayers are never answered. When a Holocaust kills many millions of people, the Chosen people are not exempt. Just the opposite. I came to think that it was very easy indeed for me as a middle class, white male, with a good career as a university professor, a loving wife and two terrific young kids, a house to live in and never any concerns about having enough to eat, plenty of money to buy cars and TVs and computers and … and all that, it was very easy for me to be grateful to God and to think that he acted on my behalf to provide me with the good things in life. But what about those who are no better than me and who pray no less fervently than me who are watching their children die of dysentery, who are sold to be sex slaves, who see the drought and the famine come and know there’s not a solitary thing they can do to avoid starving to death along with everyone they know and love? It’s easy to believe that God intervenes for you when you live a basically happy and fulfilled life. And yes, I know the typical response: that faith in God is especially important for those who are in the midst of suffering, that it provides them hope, that without it they would simply despair. But the reality is that most of these people despair anyway. How can they not? They are suffering in extremis and are about to die in agony. Not much to be thankful for. And even if it’s true that faith might provide them with some solace, that doesn’t make their faith *true* or the God whom they hope will intervene on their behalf *real*. It is their faith and hope that provides solace, not the divine being who supposedly could help them if he wanted to. Those of us on the outside observing these deaths - millions and millions of deaths - need ourselves to ask whether there is any reason to think that there is a God who is active in this world. And I came to think that it was perverse of me to be thankful for all the good things I had - as if God had provided them to me - when I knew full well that millions of people were dying from diseases contracted from not having clean water to drink; and from malaria; and from the lack of just the most basic protections against weather; and from starvation; and from natural disasters; and and and. If God is the one to be thanked for my good life, who is to be thanked - or rather blamed - for their suffering? Do I really want to say that it is God who has blessed me? If so, has he decided to curse the others? Or am I simply favored because I’m such a nice guy? I got to a point where I just didn’t believe it any more. This wasn’t because I was a biblical scholar who knew that the Bible was deeply flawed as a very human book filled with contradictions, discrepancies, and mistakes. All that was irrelevant. It also wasn’t because I was a historian of early Christianity who realized that traditional Christian faith developed as the result of historical and cultural forces, not divine guidance, that there was a huge variety of conflicting Christian views in its early years, decades, and centuries, and that what we know of Christianity is more or less the result of historical accident. That too was irrelevant. What was relevant was the very heart of the Christian claim that God loves his people, answers their prayers, and intervenes when they are in need. I came to think there was no such God, and decided that I had no choice but to abandon my faith and leave the Christian tradition.

This is why Calvinism is wrong! Read the Bible!

God’s foreknowledge of your decisions versus God actively choosing who wins and loses ahead of time are two different things

I’ve never once heard a Calvinist exclude themselves from salvation,only others

One arguement for mans freewill ,is the idea that God would not ask of us that which we are incapable of doing. We are commanded to believe, repent, and obey. But God also commands "be ye Holy, as He is Holy". 1 Pet. 1:15 . Also, " be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect".Matt. 5:48 Are we capable in our flesh to be " perfect, and holy, just like God? God commands us to be born again. John 3:3. We had no part in being born the first time, and are not able to be born again. Yet God has required all of these things of us, and more. If left to our own " freewill," we would never even entertain a desire to fulfill these commands. The bible says that we are slaves to sin, and that we are dead in our trespasses and sin. Roman's 3: 10 -12 ," there is none righteous, no not one, there is none that even seeks God"." The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor ' can' he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor. 2:14. Every choice we make is governed by our enslavement to sin, and in opposition to Gods will. Paul speaks of not doing what he wants to do, but rather doing what he 'does not' want to do. Roman's 7: 14,15. Even though we do have freedom to make choices, our will is not truly free. Autonomy.( Greek meaning " self rule or govern") is defined as, not in subjection to anyone or anything .There is in fact only one truly autonomous being in the universe. God alone is the only sovereign and autonomous being.There cannot be more than one sovereign or autonomous being in existence , just as there cannot be, an immovable object, and an irresistible force existing simultaneously. If an immovable object 'cannot' be moved by an irresistible force, then the irresistible force is not irresistible, and if an immovable object 'can' be moved by an irresistible force, then it is not an immovable object. Likewise, if God is truly sovereign , then man cannot be autonomous. Until man has been regenerated and given a new nature by God, he is helpless , to become holy or perfect. He is in a state of inertia, unchanging , and must be transformed from a source outside of himself. " No one ' can ' come to Me, unless the Spirit draws him" . John 6:44. " Who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26. " When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. Col.2:13. It is only by Gods intervention that we obtain the ability to believe , and to be born again. He must first regenerate us, without which, we are not only unwilling, but also unable to believe." For the natural man" will not, and cannot recieve the things of God.1 Cor. 2:14. Salvation is one hundred percent the work of God, we have no part in accomplishing it, just as we had no part in our earthly birth. You might ask then, if it is Gods work alone that saves us,how does our responsibility come into play? ," But thou, O man, who art *thou* that answerest again to God? Shall the thing formed say to him that has formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour? 22And if God, minded to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; 23and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory".Roman's 9: 19-24. God is God, and we are not. His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Above all else, He is always Righteous, Merciful and Gracious . He will always do the right thing, even when we cannot always see or understand.The dispensational teaching about 'antichrist' , pretrib rapture , and a seven year tribulation at the end of the world is the great delusion, perpetuated by people like Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Chuck Smith and others , actually was created by two Jesuits commissioned by the papacy . This was an effort to redirect the reformers teaching that the papacy was indeed the antichrist sysyem. These Jesuit wrote a 500 page thesis espousing the idea that the ' antichrist' would actually be an end time world leader, that would reign during a time called the ' great tribulation. ' This dispensational theology was rejected by the reformers and the early church father's Unfortunately, it was resurrected in 1830 through the ' Plymouth brethren ' . Since then it has been perpetuated by Edward Irving, John Darby, and Cyrus Scofield of the Scofield bible fame. This theology found its way into Dallas Theological Seminary. and is still the predominant teaching. There are only 3 references to antichrist in the bible. Each of them describe antichrist as anyone who denies Christ has come in the flesh. Interesting that someone who supposedly plays such a significant role in the end times, is not mentioned once in Revelation or Daniel. Those who advocate these ideas have an erroneous understanding of scripture. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, this is the most popular view in America.

Calvinism makes God the author of evil. Therefore, it is false and invalid as a theological system. Period.

This is from the film Hard Core, I think?

Sure mime writing in the sand ?

Here's my two cents: The protestant emphasis on faith over works is necessary and correct, but the excessive emphasis that is placed on that truth numbs many believers to the importance of actual practice, because they go all in on faith and leave no room for devotion, responding to questions about practice with the same dogmatic assertions about faith over works every time they come up. That's how it is with most of the other protestants I know. I tell them that I feel like I am not living out my faith, and all they have to say is that I will never be perfect and that I am dependent on Divine Grace. I do not deny that this is true, but it is useless in practice and irrelevant to my question. As the book of James says, faith without works is dead. What can I do? I know what I do is inconsequential to G-D, but how can I prove to myself that I love Him? What can I do to show my devotion definitively? Can it be done, or is devotion a continual display? We are too quick to let little things slip. Most of us are everyday subjected to seemingly minor tests, and rarely, if ever, do we pass. If I continually prioritize my sinful inclinations over G-D, am I practicing devotion to Him? Obviously not, and yet I am told that he still forgives me, that I do not cease to be his child or his servant because of it. But how can I serve Him if those failures don't undermine the sincerity of my belief or the integrity of my relationship with G-D? What kind of situation will ultimately make or break my faith? If the world ended tomorrow, could I count on being recognized as a true servant of The Most High, or would I be recognized as the most consistent of the spiritual phonies? How many times can I say that I hate what I do before I'm forced to admit that I'm lying to myself? That I don't love G-D as I claim to? I have to love G-D, one way or another. How do I prove that I do? People like to act like no one has salvation, like my very existence, with all of its complexities, undermines G-D's sovereignty within my relationship with Him. Can anyone honestly tell me that G-D doesn't care if I make an effort? Will a false repenter like me really be called "Good and Faithful Servant" after a life lived abusing G-D's grace? I know Calvinists and other protestants will be absolutely incensed at my take on their attitudes, but it doesn't come from nowhere. I'm talking about my own experiences. Also, since I'm here, I just want to say that I love Paul Schrader's work and I think he writes great characters. Taxi Driver, Mishima, Light Sleeper, and Bringing Out The Dead are all masterpieces. I will never see The Last Temptation. I have heard too much to be able to stomach what to me looks like a potentially very blasphemous film. Nonetheless, I admire him as an artist.

Sounds like a very selfish, exclusionary, elitist, and downright depressing church. No thanks!

Ahh the good old days Smoking in the airport AND on planes

Calvin was a self hating Jew who founds a cult in Geneva, burns alive a visitor to the cult ridden city for the offense of rejecting the Pagan Trinity. Really, why would anyone quote this sick nutjob? But you do.....showing how Totally Depraved his followers are.

Calvinism is fancy semantics that try, in linear time, to explain faith in non linear time.

Can you imagine this being made today?

Calvinism is heresy, and as a Catholic Christian I reject it…period. Calvin is in Hell with his buddy Luther. They like it hot

My uncle, a horrible racist and incompetent con man, believed he was one of the predestined elect. It served him as a license to do whatever he wanted. It was the most blatant hypocrisy and unacknowledged arrogance.

some people can find a problem for every solution

People who resist Calvinism are simple minded

Calvinism in 4 words: A load of crap.!

Grateful to be Catholic. LOL

From God's perspective, Calvinism is correct and logical. If there is an all-powerful being beyond time and space that brought the universe into being and knows it from beginning to end, then of course it knows who is or isn't going to be saved and has the power to choose who is or isn't saved. However, from OUR own perspective, we are incapable of knowing God's designs ahead of time. So free will and free decision-making exists from OUR perspective, and failing to understand that will only lead to people excusing bad decisions through their own supposed powerlessness. Saying that the decision to accept God's grace was not freely made in that it was a choice that God made for us ahead of time may well be right, but that is only a way of understanding it in retrospect. John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life". As long as we remain on Earth, the choice to believe or not believe, like the choice to resist our sinful nature, is ours. God simply knows ahead of time what decision we will make. The choice to accept the grace that is offered unconditionally is still yours, whether or not this is attributed to the holy spirit working within you. That is how I understand predestination and salvation under Calvinism.

This is so dumb. You’ll need to do better than a stupid worldly video clip to take down the doctrines of Grace. Your brains are too small to comprehend, literally!

He got total depravity wrong. It doesn't mean man is totally evil it means that all parts of man are polluted by sin and man is morally an admixture of good and evil.

God is Sovereign. In full control of all creation. He created heaven, earth and sea and all that is in them. Psalm 146:6. Look up the definition of a word first.

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

Total garbage.

All in hell are there by their own will. And freedom rights they demanded All in heaven are there by God in Christs will by the Holy Spirit formerly AGAINST THEIR will and without their consent until the Quickening.

God has no problem sending ANYONE to His eternal wrath as all deserve. He is not mockey mouse American fundy mush head peabrains

God wills that All men be saved 2 Peter 3:9 Titus 2:11 as well

Read the Scarlet Letter. Hawthorne deconstructed this

Why is Calvinism so frowned upon?

Unnecessary vulgar bomb ruins every conversation

John17v9 I pray not for the world but only those thou has given me!

The word world and all has limitations When someone says no need to tell the whole world And a.person says i.would like to welcome you all!

Calvinists make a strong point regarding God's omniscience and precognition, insisting that God predestines those who will be saved. What they don't factor into the equation is that God's precognition would recognize those who would cry out to Him for mercy, even in a small way. Or those who would be touched by His words, especially through Christ (my word will not come back to me void) and thus give Him the smallest opening to apply His grace unto salvation. (God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance). When the apostles were flabergasted by man's failure to meet God's standard they cried out to Jesus.."Who then can be saved?" Jesus replied: "With God, ALL things are possible". The Calvinist is not wromg about predestination, they are wrong about the power of God to crack the barrier of "total depravity" in anyone who is nothing more than a "smokimg flax". Praise Jesus!

"He that endures to the end will be saved", Mt 10:23

I have many friends who are Calvinist and many who are Arminian. I’ve had a lot of discussions with both sides and noticed they like to selectively pick certain scriptures that support their viewpoint and twist the scriptures that don’t. I’ve often gone back and forth between the two viewpoints, but now believe that elements of both sides are true. God is fully sovereign over salvation while humans also have free-will and a responsibility to accept Christ. I don’t exactly know how these two viewpoints intersect, but I nevertheless believe they coexist. With my limited human understanding, I cannot grasp the works of God, yet I realize God can do anything. Regardless, we are all sinners saved by grace and have a responsibility to share the gospel to all.

My hope is built On nothing less Than Scofield's notes And scripture text

What movie is this from?

TULIP is utter bullcrap

Brilliant convo lads

Always love to see the triggered evil self righteous narcissists who cannot resist their own evil spirits complaining of Gods authority over them from eternity past. It shows you still reject Him. Who He foreknew He Also PREDESTINED Bam over Alll who are appointed will come to Him and be changed if you deny this you have never been changed converted regenerated you are a fake hypocrite blasphemer 🤷 Simple logic dopes you are cutoff because we are ALL cutoff and blind and hostile to anything but what feeds our ego and appetite. Kindergarten Sunday school in EVERY actual Christian church. 🤷