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What I don't like is when, in the articles explaining the adoption of the bracket system, they explicitly reference how the bracket system will lead to rule 0 conversations when the entire point of a bracket system _should_ be to reduce them. If you have to say "hey guys my deck is a 2 but plays Demonic Tutor because it's demon tribal" then you aren't actually saving any effort compared to not having a bracket system at all. All the bracket system does is complicate matters and introduce a system for people with... let's say literal minds to completely refuse to consider your deck because "it's outside the tier therefore it's banned".

I had some one get upset saying I was playing cedh because I played a phyrexian censor and a vorinclex monstrous raider.

I have two versions of rule 0 1. I useally don't really know how some of my decks win, im here for a good time. 2. When someone wants a detailed idea of what my deck does. I just grab my list and show it to the pod. I have had this happen where soneone was asking questions that were odd and i didn't know where he was going Moat of the time its just grab a deck and play we talk about the deck and crack it open and play. I like to be an open book. No secrets even if im clueless about the deck i will put the list out there

I also think people confuse the power and purpose of rule zero versus pregame talk I think the pregame talk is defining how you want to experience commander within the rules given and rule zero is for win your face with something not covered in the rules

Rule zero definitely exists but usefulness is taxed endlessly by the forces that we shouldn't have to rule zero for. Cost of the game we should not have to rule zero whether or not you can use proxies. We're supposed to rule zero against a bunch of collectors and finance bros who exploit our love of the game that makes it popular so they can protect their investments The banning of cards we should not have to rule zero the banning of cards. If a card is put on that list the specific or reason for it being there is so random groups and the everyday pickup group and playing you know at conventions and such don't have to wonder if something is or isn't allowed at the table. Design mistakes unfortunately wizard of the Coast Prince karns and an alarming rate and despite what people think cards like dockside and Nadu are just glaring examples of bad design they're like the poster child for the worst of the worst offenders. There are plenty of other cards that are poorly designed but is up to rule zero to manage it even though we have no control over how wizards fucks up our game.

armegeddon apologists lol

This is more of a chuckle than a call out, but I did notice something about Vince's response to the negative aspects of being online: he said that people don't have the balls to talk to him in person but then gave an example of someone literally trying to do that where he laughed the guy off. Like... my man, I would LOVE to have these discussions in person - the people I do discuss these things with in person tend to be FAR more amicable for sure - but you're not exactly an accessible guy. It is really frustrating to see all the content creators putting out takes that I think are just bad and not being able to get a different perspective out there.

The extent of Rule 0 that I've engaged in is; what command, what archetype/win-con, maybe change deck to suit, then go

So my issue with Rule 0 is entirely conceptual. As in the core concept itself is deeply flawed. the only way I can really demonstrate this is with a metaphor, so bear with me. Imagine you're cooking a big pot of chili, right? Think of 'rules and banlists' like a recipe and Rule 0 as any changes I make to that recipe. If you're at home, you know your wife and kids like beans, some chorizo, a can of corn, these two types of beans and the overall spice level is good. Sometimes I get a little overzealous and add a bit too much hot sauce but overall we enjoy it. I don't need a recipe to tell me what my family likes because we've cooked this before we've done some testing and we know if my sister is coming over I need to dial the heat back. This is Rule 0 at work, right? And because it works so well I didn't even need a recipe to begin with. Now imagine I'm cooking for a group. A holiday, a potluck at work, a church event... whatever. Do I just bring my trusted home recipe? I know my level of spice, but I have a good tolerance for spicy food. Does everyone else like my tex-mex inclusion of chorizo and corn? I need a recipe to give me guidance on what others might find acceptable. The conceptual problem I have isn't that Rule 0 exists, because there ARE scenarios where it works. My issue is that the RC decided not to write down the recipe at all because Rule 0 works at home. The issue at play here is that when people say this format is 'social' or 'casual' what they're really trying to say is that the format is a 'kitchen table' format - it's an at home format. And that may have been true early on, sure, but it isn't anymore. It's a sanctioned format played at most LGSs at their primary FNM format. And telling those players what EDH isn't meant to be played with strangers isn't going to fly - we need a recipe. And we need to actually define the terms we are using, because when you say the format is 'social', I don't think even you know what the F you're saying.

Honestly best way to rule zero just show every person your deck. I agree even just too 5 cards gives you a great litmus test of power. Edh should be ok being open unless it's CEDH.

My experience with rule 0 is the same as my experience with proxies in 40k. Everyone I play with seems to be a big proponent of it, but outside of a few instances (e.g. unfinity night where we all agree to do the same gimmick) we don't actually use it. We like the idea of it, but all of us are such purists (if that's the word that we want to use) that we don't ever try to do anything that requires a rule 0.

I have always used low mid or high for saying what the decks power level is. Low is precon or super gimmick decks, mid is tuned decks with a focused theme, and high being decks that are built to win a specific way as soon as possible. If there's a pregame talk on power from my experience that's usually all that happens is are we doing low mid or hi. Not all this other nonsense I see so many content creators talk about of do u have this or that, are we allowing this, etc.

I agree with most of this conversation but I want to push back immensely on a point near the end. I would still want mana crypt banned if it was 50 cents, because I don’t think that card is healthy or fun for a game, regardless of the price. And my proof of why I think I would always hold this position, is that I feel exactly the the same way about Sol Ring. And I do think people would want it banned even if it was cheap becuase there are plenty of people who want Sol ring banned just like me.

My Kenrith is Elk Typal 🤷‍♂️

I will also be at MagicCon! Would love to bump into the lot of ya

Within a consistent pod/group of friends, the idea of a rule 0 is superseded by wider chat being had between them. But at a Commandfest or wider LGS environment, a rule 0 is needed. Had a game at an LGS where we discussed commanders and one player was on Voja (but a “weak” version), another was on an amended capenna grixis pre-con led by Kes. Another player had a variety of decks. I explain I have nothing that hangs with Voja, but accept that. Player 3 then selects a Tesa aristocrats deck with a number of powerful cards in it. Then the Teysa deck hits the nut draw, and burns us out. But it was still an interesting game though. Nobody can legislate a but draw. However, I have some hopes for the bracket system. As I am expecting for a lot of my decks to be lower power due to the sort of cards I like to play. But I would have no issue with a player asking to run a jank commander that has a vampiric tutor. I am hopeful that brackets make rule 0 easier and more effective.

I remember a time where you weren't expected to tell your opponents your strategy, and how to defeat you. Surprises were part of the game. a system where the players don't get a chance to reject each other, and where the only person who has a say what's in your deck is you is what we need. The point system variant that was proposed over a TCC makes the most sense, because its a platform to balance decks that can be calculated and arrives at a level you can communicate without explaining how your deck works. You can reveal the deck's score, and retain as much information as is feaible about what the decks actually do... and save the fun of surprise within the game. I've never been a fan of rule zero.

It feels really strange to say "it doesn't really work" because I don't have issues, the exceptions being with people to don't communicate or purposefully hide their decks intention.

33:00 That was more of a personal reaction from you not liking cedh. I don’t agree on players at LGS’s just seeking out strictly casual play, Highly doubt the guy’s intentions were to “pub stomp” dude was likely trying to find other high power players to hang with.

The joys of being in Australia and having US magicon taking a month's worth of wages to travel to. Oh to have a company care about our hemisphere.

Another great pod, they seem to get better and better each episode!

Rule 0 in my playgroup usually happens after something has been causing issues over an X number of matches. Either a deck/strategy that's unfun, takes too long or is way too powerful for what our group usually plays. We don't "pre rule 0", we don't ban specific cards or strategies, but we do discuss stuff if it becomes problematic. Some of our big rule 0 talks were a Kenrith Superfriends deck that was taking too long to play without having a win in the bag. Or the same situation but with Yorion, where the player would loop things, taking up 90% of the game time on his own (I'm not exaggerating here). Or a situation we have right now, where one of our players has a certain izzet deck that copies extra turn and ends up having 10 turns in a row, making it into a non-game, up to the point where we've started scooping because no one wants to sit through 10+ extra turns while unable to play ourselves. We never outright banned anything ourselves, but we've had these discussions where we'd ask the player if they could make some changes to their decks to make it less unfun for everyone else.

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Great conversation! Artoria Guild seem like good people

Massive! Love the pod & Love what Artoria Guild are doing 😀

Really enjoyed the video, thank you for showing us around.

This gives me the vibes of, like, checking into a really fancy MTG hotel and this is playing on the TV to let me know about all the local things I can check out. It's so relaxing haha, great vid!

Hopefully I can make it next year.

Oh hey I'm in this!

It was great sitting down for a chat!

Duskmourn looks like its gonna be a lot of fun!

We always put a disclaimer on our Reaper King deck 🤣 you're mean for running it! 😈. Great pod again

Great discussion. More Emma please!

Great name for the podcast!! 🥰

I love this magic edition but i'm really disappointed about the quality of these cards: foils are very curved and in some collector packs, cards with black edges are bad cutting... Please WotC make an effort for players who pay a forturne for these cheap cards and stop to make fun of us!

Yes, Emma! I've recently got into Pauper and I'm OBSESSED. Not enough people are playing, we need more people getting into the format!

Hecking sweet intro, fellas! Keep up the great work! 😎👍

FINALLY! 🎉🎉🎉

Welcome back friends!

CHANGES?!?! Are you house banning Nadu? Alex are you starting a second content channel with really well played MTG showcasing used cards? Dom are you building a mini card deck? SO MUCH SPECULATION!

Great to have you back guys!

Great to have you back, fellas!

Casually pulls a couple hundred bucks 😭

Good episode, thanks for the shout out 😊

Hey i like this cards . Im not MTG but these ones are really good made . Im yugioh fan . And wanted to ask why is your hand shaking so much brother?

As per usual, great episode!

cool vid! dig that sol ring!

love the footage and commentary

Such a great overview of magiccon! Pack wars was super fun and a great way to meet the creators