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i'd like to hear your take on the latest tests for server meshing!

when you mention it costing more performance than you save, well I think the key importance is being able to split up how many updates per second each region shares with the other regions, and to do it dynamically on the fly. so if a server is overloaded with many players, it can reduce how many updates (non-essential ones at least) from other regions it takes in per second drastically until it catches up/splits. dynamic optimisations like that can make this whole thing possible I think. that being said, even if it ends up being right that big events concentrated in one area will always fall over worse than before, I still think that the everyday benefits you get from when the servers are running like normal with 500/1000 players is still a worthwhile tradeoff

Tybio any new videos on the latest tests. We need your expertise.

8 months later and just watched your video, nicely done for your first! I have wondered if the limit would be about the transferring of information (and connections per say) between servers. I did a little thought experiment in regards to server meshing, where I treated a small mesh as a rubics cube, 27 servers, with the most center space dealing with the most information/connections. I looked at what the average FPS game servers tend to have as player limits, which is around 100 but there have been more, and if you spread those 100 over the 27 servers (because I'm dealing in connections here), then it's really only 3 or so players per server - remember this is for a really dense environment. Real world connections would have to be made to one data center, which the many virtual and real servers would "mesh", to minimize latency issues, before returning data back to the respective clients. Back to the rubics mesh, say a bullet travelling across a dense space/mesh, it could really be a real world costly proposition and I'm wondering what the limit of latency will be before it "breaks" for the end user's experience. Anyways, I'm talking about the most extreme situation here, and as I mentioned, purely a thought experiment from a person that has no network skills and only some programming knowledge. Thanks for your thoughts as a subject matter expert, very much appreciated.

I dont know why youtube waited so long to recommend this video to me. I enjoyed it!

The issue I'm having with this is not the server side of things, but the player side. I'm curious how performant the game would be on an average players' system, syncing data from thousands of other players, without clogging up their bandwidth. regardless of how good your servers are, the ultimate bottleneck is still the system the game itself is running on.

I have nothing to do with networking or even coding at all but these videos give me valuable insight into what CIG might be doing and how it is valuable. Thank you for your very understandable videos.

None of this is new technology. In the 90's we had IRC Networks with hub servers and leaf servers with the tree topology and then later we had them working on a star topology type network. That's already been done long before MMO's became a thing, and MMO's adopted IRC technology and that's why they exist in the first place. Even Star Citizen's "authoritative" server technology was done before. We used to call this IRC Services; essentially an IRC Server with what we would call AI now, programmed to determine what to do after a netsplit and network recovery, putting channels back together and determining who should be opped in a channel according to how things were before the netsplit. This is old technology, and to say that CIG have made something revolutionary is complete hogwash.

if they get rid of persistent trash 95% of the problems will go away...

how tf can they scam even this smart people...

I work in marketing and deal with networking. This was extremely helpful in me learning more in-depth information than i already knew. Thank you.

I knew what CIG is trying to do has never been done before, and a big step in server technology. However, after watching your videos I clearly didn’t realize just how big and difficult this truly is. Thank you for breaking everything down to be a lot more understanding.

Honestly as a consumer I don't care about them discovering the holy grail, I just want a functioning space sim

You say "iPhone" moment, but the comment you made about being able to give WoW a universe within this system makes it sound like this is our real world precursor to the "Oasis" from Ready Player One.

Love to know your take on the SpatialOS (that now look like its no longer being sold)

I’m a PvE’r, but pro-pirate. I respect the genuine pirate gameplay. I think it would benefit both sides if the economy ends up with real produced goods scarcity. When the PvP’rs can’t refuel/repair/rearm because the PvE’rs aren’t in the game doing the industrial gameplay, then then PvE’rs will finally have a bit of negotiating leverage. PvP orgs that take good care of “their” PvE’rs will benefit by having a steady source of resources, and the PvE’rs wouldn’t feel like nothing more than permanent targets. A win-win scenario. This would then likely translate to PvE’rs volunteering to do the engineering role play on the multi-crew ships, or fly logistics ships to help protect “their” PvP’rs from other PvP orgs. Also, the crime stat penalty should actually “hurt” instead of being additional PvP gameplay. Instead of a timer that runs out in real time, a criminal that gets caught should have to load/unload X number of 1 SCU boxes in and out of a C2, with the requirement being having to move X amount of boxes before they can be free.

I don't have the network background you do. That said I do work in the IT field, and I have 28 years of online gaming experience. One thing that has always been constant. A large group of people in a small area doesn't just affect server meshes and the matrices they are built around, but there's another layer to that, which is where my specialization comes in. The end user experience. Does anyone REALLY believe even if they get this server mesh system to work the way they anticipate do you REALLY believe the end user's PC is going to handle all that rendering? The trend for the last 28 years has been a resounding "No!" The biggest engagement I've ever been involved in was in Aion. 600 people vs 600 people PVP battle. Not only did the servers take a shit, but so did the end user's PC's. Going from 60+ FPS down to 1-5 in a PVP fight in which you can't see what you are doing... And I mean that in a literal sense, not a figurative sense. The work-around they had for that was to have client PC's turn off entity counts within a given proximity. I.E. if 1200 people are located in one small area, your PC can only see about 30 of them at a time within a given range, and if the number exceeded your PC's ability to see that many people those other people were literally invisible. In short: You cannot see what is actually happening. And that is to say nothing about network latency. That is the pinnacle of online gaming architecture. Removing the bottlenecks. Now I don't know what scalability CIG has with its server infrastructure, but there's another layer of complexity to add to that server mesh. Cost to operate under those loads. Not that it will happen all to often but when it does can CIG afford to scale the infrastructure to handle it in a seamless fashion? Again that is taking no account to the end user experience which will be pretty much non existent and I suspect that will remain the case probably for a very VERY long time. Just FYI for people who are less tech savvy. Game optimizations is not even an argument anyone can make as it will have little to no affect on what Tybio and I would be talking about here. Now maybe you can answer to the viability of this idea. The best solution I can theorize would be a gaming system similar to Quake Live. No client end rendering at least not in a traditional sense. Users login to a cloud system where all the rendering is done at the server level, and only data streams are exported to the clients. Just a thought. Granted Quake is a very small non resource intensive system, but the theory behind how it works is interesting if it can be implemented for something like Star Citizen? Note: I use the term data stream loosely and probably not accurately to define what I am trying to say, but for those people who have used Quake Live should have the basic level idea of how it could work for Star Citizen, and take the burden of rendering off the end users. My thoughts. I wish them luck in getting it to work but it is a small step up a very long stair case before the rest of the infrastructure can walk the same path.

The ultimate networking boss will be when two big orgs go to war, bringing to bear hundreds of ships crewed by thousands of people all flying around, intermingling in space, shooting lasers at each other as they blow up into salvageable scrap. Is this even possible? God I hope so.

amazing stuff

Networking is pain and suffering to my very soul. But their Server Meshing is fascinating, magical, and sounds like a "too good to be true, but what if is and it actually works" tech, and I like hearing realistic technical aspects and challenges about it that aren't from specifically long running Star Citizen focused channels, simply because I assume they'll be more likely to upsell and hype-generate the tech and not try to break it down critically. My first thought when they demo'd it was "If this actually works, I hope they package this tech up and sell it to other companies", it was an excitement I hadn't really felt in gaming since Valve demo'd Half-Life 2/Source Engine tech at that E3 back in 2003??? or so. Great video, I'll check out more!

Excellent

This was an amazing perspective and I'm happy to see someone else shed light on CIG's pioneering endeavor to make a game of this scope. It does hold massive potential of future implications for the entirety of gaming and many people just don't understand that. Thanks again!

When I first heard of this, I thought I was not understanding correctly, I blamed the youtuber having too much imagination, then when I heard about it once again I thought, “ too much narrative, people missguide one another”.. then I realized in fact they are designing an entirely new architecture never heard before… and I alrready go nuts when I imagine the kind of traffic they alrready push through amazon… omg.

Gota love black magic =) enjoyed the lower level system descriptions!

Really enjoy it! I have watched other videos w/this information before and while I eventually got it, I feel your calm description would have worked better for me.

I think of it in terms of a virtual computer running a web server and having it access multiple database servers. You can expand horizontally to add more web servers using the same databases, and you can also have database replication to expand databases horizontally. This to me is a similar concept to server meshing.

cant they spin up back up servers in the background for help? if a population hits a certain amount you can have the servers start taking over certain zones only. say 100 people server then when it gets to like 75 people it can spin up another server to be ready switch balance loads?

Being a self taught ICT professional with no formal training much like yourself I really appreciated the "from the first roots" approach that gives so much context! By any chance have you seen any of James Burkes BBC series "Connections"? - in the series he traces the seemingly random, unrelated, events that culminate in a number of big technological/cultural advances - much like the format you've used here. If not here is a link to the first episode... ruclips.net/video/XetplHcM7aQ/видео.html

I want your opinion on Mortal Online 2 and their server meshing. Its not dynamic but its more or less miles ahead of CIG and its like 5 dudes from sweden. I won't link the video here so the filter doesnt grab it but its on my channel labeled "4K Hour Review of MO2" at 3:16 I talk about the networking side.

miss your videos man they were super interesting

I think the elevators and shuttles are objects that dont persist and therefor not beeing safed with PES in the entity graph. The RL will only replicate things that are saved in the entity graph. That could also be the reason why commarray and such dont work because those systmes are old and the state is maybe not properly persistently safed with the player.

26k for your first vid is not bad

I don't really care much about history, but if it's computer related history I'm all in! :P Very enjoyable episode! And you were right, I've heard and know all the names etc of all people you mentioned in this video, except for Claude Elwood Shannon :P

1:05 "There are people who want that PvP concept, and then there are people who don't." Exactly. And the people who are making Star Citizen are the former, as evidenced by their explicit statements and game design for more than a decade. This is their game, and they're making it how they have always said they would make it.

Instand sub

Pro tip, set playback speed to 1.25x and he talks normal speed

lol. im a old backer but my knowledge about this is far from your knowledge. But you do explain it very well even i got the feeling i understood it. so thank you

I was working with a colleague who's a bit younger last year and realized over the course of it that he'd just... never had a need or opportunity to deal with subnet masks. And he'd worked on significant projects at significant scale, the network stuff had just always been already handled by the time it came to him. I'm always so focused on whatever my growing edge is, I keep forgetting that I learned some things by breaking and fixing our network in my parents' basement twenty-five years ago that not everybody picks up anymore.

Oslo Stock Exchange as an example, that's daring ;) Usually the private range is used for examples and training. Though though Oslo Boerse wil be cyberminded enough to handle being cited. There is (fortunately!) a surprisingly large audience for your network workshops, but most are responsible.

Great back to the basics video on networking. Keep it up.

Thank you. I learned a lot about subnet. I've been configuring old windows and SunOS machines for decades in the medical industry and never understood this bit.

I have discussed this topic of future monetization with my friends a lot. The sale of spaceships isn't a forever solution, and they'll need different income. My personal preference relates to the most recent citcon around base building where they described the different land claims and levels of protection they were afforded. I hope they offer us the ability to pay real money for a protected land claim that can't be destroyed by other players, so those who want a safe place to not worry about while they're offline can have that. And of course I expect there would be another subscription offer too for some other benefit (idk what) but the land claim system is the most appealing to me.

Nice refresh of what I have learned years ago. I wanna setup VLAN at home for some testing and because my switch can, so why not using it for fun. So I am curious of your next video, even though I already know how it works. As TheGeekAvenger already mentioned, this is a really good visualization, with one small exception: 07:50 when you start saying the 146.72... IP address ranges, also put them on the screen, otherwise it becomes hard to follow the numbers without any visualization and people might get lost in space errr numbers . I know it sounds silly but brains...

I love this style of content! Networking has always seemed to me particularly opaque, arcane and akin to wizardry, but your breakdowns make the subject approachable and understandable. Thank you, and keep 'em coming!

I have worked in IT for over almost 20 years and information security for the last 10. While I already understood the IP Address space and subnet mask structures, I have always had trouble explaining to folks why and what subnet masks are for, and this video laid it out so clearly and simply. Great job! As someone who has tried and failed to communicate this sort of technical content in the past to co-workers this is incredibly well organized and your graphics are very helpful. I can't wait until you get to VLANs and VLAN Tagging.

I dont know the situation in the States, but here in Germany, IPv4 for consumers becomes rarer by the day. Not using IPv6 even slowly becomes a problem because of dual stacking and all the shenanigans the ISP does to conserve addresses. I dont envy anyone who has to start today in networking, IPv6 is such a mess for the human brain to deal with.

Always great to hear it broken down by someone who understands it, rather than just the manual. Great series

30+ updates are smacking their virtual heads at this title. 🤭

Going to watch it, brb …lol Edit: So I watched it …holy fuck man, and ya 100% achievable, I’m sure most of it is already done as well, I just started a month ago, and really think I came in on the best time. Can’t wait 🤙🏻