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@ronjones1414 thanks for the comments! What do you mean by discharge pressure? The brew pressure? If so, this is not what affects most, but the flow. Higher flow will lead to faster drop in temperature. Then, a turbo shot shall be more difficult to keep the temperature at the desired level and a ristretto shall be easier. Also, the longer the shot, more difficult to remain stable since the boiler is very small and with a high flow in a long shot, the heating element may not have enough power to recover. Then, again the ascending curve shall be more favorable for these cases. Hope it clarifies a bit. I didn't know this topic would be so popular, but maybe in the future I can make a more comprehensive one on temperature surfing.

@aalgawi thanks for the comments! I didn't use the steam button because I thought the temperature was already too high. But you can try if you need extra temp. 2 or 4 seconds shall give you a reasonable increase and you can keep increasing until you think it's delivering a good cup. Pre-infusion in a Gaggia you have two options: using on and off, the pressure will be released and may break the puck, but many people use this option. Another is to install a dimmer. I prefer the dimmer because you can also play with pressure and flow profile. I have a video on how to install the dimmer in my 3 basic mods Playlist if you have doubts on how to install it.

@EspressoHackers I think I'm going to try installing the Gaggiuino soon which means I shouldn't install any other mods right?

@aalgawi with Gaggiuino, you don't need pid, Dimmer and pressure gauge. Buy you may want an IMS showerscreen, a brass or stainless steel diffusion disc with 4 or 6 holes, a better steam wand, lower drip tray, there are many mods available for Gaggias that you may still want to try.

@@simonmonty7171 2 ans je croix qu'il est beaucoup. Vous pouvez essayer de détartrer mais cela risque de se boucher. Ensuite, il faudra démonter la chaudière, l'OPV, l'électrovanne et le groupe pour une révision complète. Bonne chance!

@@EspressoHackers ohlala! Merci!

@@TheFazeel123 I think I'm going to start in January!

@geomcl thanks! I think you will be fine for more than a year without descaling with such a low TDS. My experience is that I've been using a water with TDS between 90-110 for more than a year without descaling and my boiler had no signs of scaling. But when descaling, it should be through all the parts that hot water / steam goes, i. e. both group and steam wand. I'll post a video about my experience in January and I'll show all the details about my maintenance, water and how I descaled my ECM.

@ Excellent. I appreciate your help.

@@dominater great tip! Thanks for the comments!

@@catalinnicolae4443 many thanks!

@adrian14752 thanks for the kind words!

@nonfaker @nonfaker many thanks for the great comments! I'll revise my blog post later but the intention was to have the PID fed by the phase after the thermofuse exactly to have the protection as you mentioned, but maybe I made a mistake. I'll definitely check when I come back from my holidays . Regarding the insulation, you're totally right. I'd do so, but it should be temporary just to collect some data and compare the performance with a Gaggiuino, to let people know what is the additional benefit in terms of temperature stability. Gaggiuino activates the heating element based on the pump cycles, as far as I know, anticipating the reading from the thermocouple which causes some delay. I want to check how better it will be with the Gaggiuino and took the opportunity to show how I would install a PID in a Gaggia, but you're right, I should reinforce the risk of short circuit without isolation. Regarding the Thermoblocks, I don't believe a PID is effective in this case. The reason is that you will have variable amount of water at different temperatures each day flowing into a heated capillary tube to exchange heat. A thermocouple would measure the temperature at the exit of the system where the water leaving got most the heat and the initial section of the tube would be the coldest. When "colder" water was perceived in the exit, you would have some latency to heat the thermoblock. Maybe you can use the alarm function of a PID to activate the heating element within a band that you will have to test, complementing the PID. Then you would have full power within this band and the PID in the larger envelope. Sorry if the long explanation got confused but I have only theoretical ideas, I never believed that a thermoblock could perform well with a PID and then I never tried. Another reason is that I believe that thermoblocks would heat and get cold very quickly since they need to exchange heat quickly. Then you would need something with more aggressive response, but with a PID aggressive responses lead to overshoots and instability. Maybe another user can comment here...

@EspressoHackers I learnt a lot from your response, thank you! I have to read into the alarm setting, but finding resources on the REX C100 is not too easy, despite it being to popular. The mod was inspired my the new ascaso steel PID series. They seem to have great temperature stability, but are also way more complicated in terms of electronics. I will definitely follow your channel closely, there is so much to learn!

@nonfaker thanks for the kind words! I was thinking about your issue and I don't believe the alarm function will resolve due to the intrinsic characteristics of a thermoblock. It would be a trial and error, but it would work in a limited envelope. If you change the flow because you ground finer or coarser, the temperature would be higher (low flow) or lower (higher flow) than desired. It's a good challenge. I don't know how Ascaso solved the issue or if it doesn't perform so well but I'll study this machine later to see if I find some interesting solution.

@khoang82 I'll post in January a video about descaling my ECM Classika PID and I'll show how to disassemble and inspect it.

Thanks for your comments and please let me know how it went. PS: I always pre-heat for at least 15-30 min with portafilter attached before pulling my first shot.

​@@EspressoHackersI will need a few more shots to see if it makes a difference. I only have one shot per day. I am trying to decide between a PID, gaggiuino or gaggimate. Right now I am leaning toward the gaggimate.

@EHoser1 Gaggimate is an interesting one. I'll try to join the next batch. The problem with any new initiatives is that it will take some time to stabilize but I like the idea of having a new open "Gaggiuino". Thanks for the comment. It reminded that I had to join the discord and now I did 😉

@@EspressoHackers I signed up for the next Gaggimate group buy. So far I am liking my shots using your surfing method.

@gammelgemse I used a brass brush to remove the excess, then put hot water with citric acid at 4% 70 degrees, and brushed a lot again, 3 or 4 cycles.

Obrigado pelas sugestões, são todas bem pertinentes, sim. Sobre o fusível, eles instalaram um fusível adicional ou uma das fases vem após o termofusivel que já está na máquina? Eu acho o benefício pequeno em ter um fusível para o PID. Já para a resistência, que é de mais de 1000W em algumas máquinas, parece-me relevante, mas neste caso estaríamos cobertos, pois uma das fases que vai pra resistência vem após o termofusivel e se superaquecer, pode não desligar o controlador PID, mas desliga a resistência e para de aquecer. Mas numa próxima máquina, vou ver se cubro esses outros pontos. Valeu!

Régis, não consegui discriminar sobre o fusível. Deve ser elétrico apenas e sim, é adicional ao termo fusível da resistência. Abraço

@@periclescalendas340 pode sim, é uma opção tb. Obrigado pelo comentário!

@@moilami1 Gaggiuino probably in January. Thanks for the feedback. I'll try to prioritize.

@moilami1 this one will take more time. Peak Coffee didn't even ship my board. The one I have I'll install in my Gaggia. Maybe in a couple of months.

@@moilami1 thanks for the feedback!

@@marcosviniciusdecarvalho4030 boa ideia! Ficaria mais didático mesmo. Na próxima, tentarei lembrar de fazer. Aproveitando o feedback vou ver se descolo patrocínio de gel de cabelo 😂!

@@champs1076 Bãodimais! 😂 Eu anunciaria no fórum do Clube do Café.

@c2329ra thanks for your comments. I just googled and it seems that 2 dH is considered very soft and you shouldn't have issue with scaling, or at least not as much as people in Europe and US. I'll soon open the boiler of my ECM. Just trying to organize myself because there are too many topics that I'm interested but since I need to document to share with others, it takes much more of my time to make it in a structured way. And I think Gaggiuino is one of the hot topics for the audience, and festivities are coming, but I'll soon post some videos about all this and more that it's in the backlog... Cheers!

@ thank you for taking the time to answer! Since you mentioned Gaggiuino, I will share with a one crazy idea: I always thought that an e61 machine is the perfect candidate for some automation. Put an electric valve for a pressure profiler, replace the manual lever with an electric valve too. Put combined temp and pressure reader inside the 6mm screw and operate all of this with arduino :)

@c2329ra you know that I also wanted to do something similar? 😂 But it's too complicated and expensive. I may install in a machine like Victoria or Profitec 300 in the future, but it's not so appealing as an E61. Let's see...

Thanks for your comments. I believe that most people use tap water or at least a great portion of them. Then, I was trying to find something that it's balanced in terms of what is convenient/doable for most of people. But I'll soon open the boiler of my ECM Classika PID and we'll have an indication of how acceptable is this approach. Bottled water may be convenient in some cultures as well, but then people need to pay attention to the hardness when they buy it. I think there's a belief that bottled water is ok, however, some of them are hard. But I'll keep studying and posting here my observations. Thanks again!

@swempthebemp thanks for the feedback. I think I recorded with a lavelier mic and the ear buds were only for hearing. The sound seems ok here. Is it the quality of the sound or the speed? Is there a section where you had issues or it's in the whole video?

@@peterraj256 many thanks!

@andrewfreeman-u1q thanks for the feedback. I'm glad that it's being helpful!

Thanks Rodrigo! As you know, I share the same passion and went through the same hassle with my Silvia and Gaggia. I just hope that some people can learn from my mistakes and save some time and money. Having to buy a new boiler for my Silvia was not fun at all, but it's part of the learnings...

@@EspressoHackers I didn’t test Silvia’s boiler after the descaling process. Fingers crossed it survived my inexperience! We will know before Christmas! I set this deadline as a gift to myself! Lol

If it's only the steam wand, you can also use an acupuncture needle to remove the excess before descaling. And it's recommended to use citric acid. I read that vinegar may leave a weird taste but I don't have any experience vinegar.

There are also things like metallic meshes for kettles to slow down scale formation (or actually forms on the mesh which is easier to clean) Perhaps, in theory, it is possible to put one inside the boiler tank too.

But that will require frequent dissassemblies of course. So I am 100% for EDTA rinsings.

Thanks for the comments. I didn't know EDTA, but I googled and seems great. And it's also considered food safe both in US and Europe. Regarding the mesh, I think the problem is putting it inside the boiler. Limescale is formed when the water is hot, then, it needs to be in or after the boiler. And yoi don't want cristals of calcium in your boiler, believe me. I had a hard time cleaning the boiler, OPV, solenoid etc... all the parts...

@718og congrats! I'll soon join the club! My Gaggia is totally clean now. I installed a PID just to compare against a Silvia with PID, but after that, I'll install the Gaggiuino. I hope still this month!

Thanks for your comments. I don't know where you live, but if the water is hard in your area, I recommend you to test with those cheap TDS meters. You may realise that your water is still too hard (Brita was not very efficient in my tests, but much better than tap water) or that is soft and you don't need to descale so frequently. I'll try to edit the video that I have here descaling my Gaggia and I'll post here, maybe in January only... And I'll soon disassemble my ECM Classika PID to check the boiler, and this one I'll probably post sooner.

Seems to be a nice machine, you can use pre-ground coffee for those special moments... and according to the manual, you can use a water softener and you will receive also some water hardness tests. Those machines will require you to descale based on the water hardness that you set and the number of shots extracted. In this case, I'd follow the manual.

@reasons4171 great that you liked and thanks for the incentive!

@andrew.chinery wow, nice machine! If you want to open your boiler, my main recommendation is make a video of the whole process, taking pictures of details that you may forget, very stupid things like to which side a component was facing for example. Many times I had to go back and check how to reassemble a discharge valve for example. An easier option is maybe removing one screw or anything that give you access to the interior and use an endoscopie to see inside. I think it's gonna be my first step. If the images show me a low level of scaling, I'll do the regular procedure. But I'll post here. You will see! Regarding the test kits, you're absolutely right. I thought it would be too much if I detailed what's KH and GH, but yes, it's KH that matters. I'll probably by one of those kits to check against the TDS meter, just to confirm if it's a good approximation or not. I believe that it is. But I'll check. I didn't investigate the cost of distilling systems, but I'll do some research as well. I thought it would be more expensive than Zerowater. Do you recommend any brand? Thanks for your contributions!

@NãoSouBarista thanks, Thales! I'm flattered with such a qualified audience 😉

@gustavorossetto5111 To be honest, I don't know if it has a significant influence. I hear a lot of people saying that the aluminium boiler from Gaggia suffers from galvanic corrosion, but this one was in good shape (maybe protected by the thick layer of limescale 😂). Regarding the descaling for Silvia, I think monitoring the flow as suggested by James makes sense. And no matter which machine you have, I'd never use hard water because if affects the flavor, buffering the acidic notes that I want in a fruity espresso for example. In my Silvia I also use the water between 90-110 PPM, mixing zerowater with tap water. I know that tap water is not ideal in the mix but I'm trying to reduce my plastics consumption. In the future, I'll remineralize my water, I already bought the salts to make some experiments but it will take a while until I feel safe to use in an espresso machine that I cannot inspect the boiler so easily.

@CH-yp5by I think you are way above the average in terms of knowledge and practices👏👏👏 Most domestic users seem to be unaware of the scaling process. The specialty coffee hobbist, probably a bit better, but the entrance level machines are probably owned also by the newbies. I don't know, just speculating here. But thanks for your comments! If I move to London someday, I know which water I should use 😉

@TznAyoub Hi. I don't know if I understood your question. You want to install the PID that comes in a Profitec or ecm in a Rancilio Silvia? There should be a way to make ir work. A PID is just a controller that measures the difference between a state and the target, then tries to pursue that target as fast as possible, making corrections along the journey. You will also have to check which sensor it uses and install in your Silvia, as well as the display. But it seems very complicated. Why not using a Rex Cq100 or XMT 7100?

@EspressoHackers yes exactly, i have already c100 on my Silvia, i want to change it to a pid have pre infusion and also beautiful on looking 😁 like profitec or ECM pid

@TznAyoub the main issue that I see is that I don't know if you will be able to change the gains and they are optimized for each equipment. Those machines will have different boiler volume and heating elements for example, which will affect the power needed to change 1 degree in each machine. If you want pre-infusion, one option is Aubers, but it's a start-stop system which releases the solenoid between the activations and may break the puck. In addition, it looks like the XMT 7100. You can install the Gaggiuino mod and control every phase of your extraction, non only pre-infusion, if you wish.

@@EspressoHackers Thanks you very much for your answers

Glad that it helped. It doesn't contain all options, you may want to expand your search but it's a good starting point in imho.

@ it actually confirmed my next move of getting a refurbished gaggia to do gaggiuino, and pair it with a df64

@FireHumor I'll post some videos im the next couple of months showing exactly the Gaggiuino implementation. The first video that I need to edit is the descaling process. I got one that had a "coral reef" inside 😂. So, I always recommend the hard descaling when buying second hand, the one that you open the boiler. Then, you might want to buy the gaskets beforehand, for the boiler and for the group, both were stuck in my case, completely dry. And be careful when descaling. The heating element cannot be soaked in water or you will break the isolation. In 1 or 2 weeks I'll post the whole descaling process.

@@nostro1001 I totally understand. When I look at my modded Silvia, I know that I can make a coffee that is as good as the one from my ECM Classika PID, but those E61, personal preference only, are super beautiful. And I love the big drip tray, having to empty it only every 4-5 days or so.

@EspressoHackers I'm rather fanatical about my drip tray. It gets cleaned and dried after use, even if I know I'll have another coffee.

@nostro1001 I envy organized people! And try to do my best to keep my stuff minimally organized, but it is what it is 😂

@svx94 you mean that if I had a single boiler with PID and steamed milk? I think you're right if I left the machine in steaming mode for too long, but if I just switch to steaming after pulling a shot, and switch back to brewing after steaming, the group would not have time to overheat because it's the thermosyphon effect that heats the group. The inertia is long. And then, the water inside the boiler would cool down to brewing temperature in about 10 min. With a dual boiler, probably not because the boilers are separate and I think (and I didn't check this) that the water that recirculates inside the tube in the group comes from the brewing boiler. But maybe worth a test, I can make a espresso, steam some milk and then measure the temperature in the puck right after retuning to brewing temperature. If I make this test, I'll post here. Thanks for your comment! Good food for thought!

@@EspressoHackers Exactly! I think it worth to test after regular steam, which requires overheating the boiler for steam power.

@MrHackclan good point 😂. I sometimes turn on my machine, start working, and when I see, a few times 2 hours or more passed, but these were exceptions. There are a few people who keep the machine on the whole day to avoid having to wait when they want a coffee. But you're right, these shall a very minor population.

@@EspressoHackers I guess it also depends on energy prices.. cause i cant afford to leave my machine on for several hours, just to drink one espresso , so i try to optimize my time. Its has become an important topic.. especially in the west where energy prices are insane..

@MrHackclan I think we should always be more energy efficient, you're right. Not only because it's expensive but if we can save, and if it's better for the environment, why not? I try to save the most I can, but I still have a lot to improve on this. But it's just my personal opinion and lifestyle.

Coincidently, the day before, Lance also posted a video with a thumb featuring James Hoffman, it's not the first time, and it's a common practice from what I observe. I don't see any issue to do the same as well, but I appreciate that you shared your perspective, I acknlowledge that people may have different views and I respect it. Of course, thumbs are designed to capture attention, but the intention is not to click bait, is to reflect the content that will follow. If you watch the video, you will see that it's exactly what I did: I shared my thoughts on the misconception of the unpredictability of E61s, which should rely only on E61s with HXs, and that this is a misconception that even Lance thinks/agrees/observes/shares, probably after a lot of tests in HXs and generalized to all E61s, but I measured and saw something different on E61s with boilers and PID.

@@EspressoHackers thanks for your reply but I still think it’s a practice that should be discouraged especially where it is full screen.

@RT-rh9lx I'll take that into consideration for my next thumbs. Thanks for raising!

@@EspressoHackers You Tubers are fair game to be commented on, they do it to each other all the time so I think you did the right thing.

A bit harsh, other You-tubers do it all the time

@back_to_the_bike8820 thanks for your comments. Good to hear the impressions from someone who has real experience with both. You're right, with boiler and PID, you don't need a thermometer in the group.

Please do not spread misinformation. That's gross

@lancehedrick Hi Lance. I think you deleted the other comments but I just wanted to let you know that I was using the thumbs test feature, one of them had my picture in the front. I wanted to test if it's really more effective as some people say., but the algorithm delivered the other one to you. I stopped the test now and tomorrow I'll make another one without the balloon. I have your comments in my e-mail and I'll take all of them seriously in consideration in my next videos to avoid these issues. And once again, my appologies

@@LanceHedrickpainting someones impression as „spreading misinformation“ - that’s gross. Get a grip.

​@Keksdose2k lol do you not know how rumors start? Someone sees this comment and spreads it as fact. Thus, spreading misinformation. I guess I could've said "please don't be a seed for misinformation"

@JuanEliasWeb another great option. I'll add to the list later. However, 064s is just 200 dollar less than 078s and then, I think I'd choose the 078s. And comparing to DF64, they are much more expensive. But why do you think DFs are inconsistent?

@ Because I’ve owned two of them and returned in both cases, more than happy to share my results with you via DM but just to say that using the bellows at 1,800 rpm grinding for espresso, pushed two whole beans out in 40 grams test. More consistent at the lowest setting, but still one coffee would go fine and then the next bad and you will notice the dial moved after a couple of shots too.

@JuanEliasWeb interesting. I have a DF64 Gen2 for less than a month now. I'll try to observe. If you want to DM, you can try Instagram (@espressohackers) or email espressohackers@espressohackers.com. Thanks!

@@EspressoHackers I’ve had the DF64V Gen2 With stock burrs, with Sweet Labs v2 and with Sweet Labs v3. Yes moving from a manual grinder (as I did) was a plus but then you start testing some more and you’ll find the issues: With SLv2 (proper 0 set): Setting grind at 29 40 grs Lavazza Dark at 1500 rpm 16.7 > 500 microns 20.4 between 500 and 300 microns 1.6 fines 2 whole beans 40 grs Lavazza Dark at 800 rpm 27.7 > 500 microns 10.9 between 500 and 300 microns 0.4 fines Setting a 27.5 20 grs Lavazza Dark at 800 rpm 3.7 > 500 microns 15.5 between 500 and 300 microns 0.4 fines Compared to SLv3 on an Option-O Lagom P64: set to 2 about 200 microns separation between burrs. 19.1 grams of coffee total Over 500 microns : 2.4 grams - 12.57% Between 500 and 300 microns : 16 grams - 83.76% Fines under 300 microns : 0.7 grams - 3.67% The extra weight “lost” are stock on the tool to measure the out put but not significant. Also note that the SLv3 have the red coat making them better for espresso but a bit hard to dial in.

Thanks for the data! Super interesting! And sorry for my late reply. For some reason, I missed the notification. I tested my DF64 with MP burrs for a while now, about 1.5kg ground yet, not much. Mine is not the V version, then, I can't compare different RPMs. I don't know if there's an issue with the DF64v but in my unit, the regular DF64 Gen2, it didn't change the settings for espresso. I kept in the same position (10) for a few days and didn't notice any change. If I put in a filter setting, e.g. 90, it slips 1 or 2 points, but I wasn't able to distinguish any issue in my cup (I'm not a q-grader, just an average coffee hobbist like anyone else in the community). For now, I'd that it's all good and I'm a happy DF64 Gen2 owner. Hope to continue in the next months 😂 PS: I have the HU and SL red speed as well. It will take a while to season the burrs and change to one and the other, but I'll keep an eye on the dial. Thanks once more for your comments. I really appreciated the data!

@@JuanMartinez-jp3do glad to help!

@AndreaMiano 😂😂😂. I do think they are beautiful but I wasn't defending E61, just pointing the difference between E61 with boilers and E61 with HX. I believe that depending on the habits and constraints of each user, HX can be a good choice, as well as a boiler machine, and it will always be a compromise solution. But things are a bit polarized nowadays and some people may be led to make the "wrong" choice if they are not aware for example of the temperature stability depending on the technology in their machines. Thanks for your comment!