Видео

Is your machine TK-802? This video explains the differences between TK-802 and others. Otherwise, rotate the knob at least 10times I suppose that you turn the knob, the bell knife moves but very small amount. Difference between yours and mine is the distance to turn ratio.

It depends. Stone roller is suitable for thicker and hard leather and urethane one is for opposite properties.

How can I watch/hear your video? Some shots of the knife shaft from underside may help.

You are saying that Fortuna was an idiot. Phenolic resin is the material what Fortuna chose more than 50 years ago. Yes, it sure is too brittle.

@@kazuhix You have the broken part in front of you. Is that not enough for you to answer?

My guess is that this machine once had been discarded after Earthquake damage. I bought it as a junk. Engineers at Fortuna may considered that brittle is better property than plastic deformation.

@@kazuhix I don't know if fortuna has chosen to use polymer materials to build their skiving machines. He will surely have studied it and chosen it compared to other solutions. I have two old fortuna skiving machines and there is not a trace of plastic on it.

@@nicokyriak I also have two Fortuna with close serial number each other. Both have phenolic bearing flange but that is it. Other plastic parts can be find is the adjust knob/screw heads and they are made of plastic with a little elasticity, appears not to be phenolic resin.

I agree with you 100%.

I don't know. Only I have is printed version which come with machine I bought about two years ago. It was essentially former tk801 manual.

@@kazuhix I am trying to help someone troubleshoot a problem with his Taiwanese Taking-802. Apparently, this machine uses a special feed roller that has bearings. Also, he installed a Nippy 301N knife, which cannot be sharpened with standard stones. Do you know if authentic Nippy sharpening stones can be used on this machine? Is the stone bore hole 16mm, 15mm, 17.5mm?

@@pequodexpress I'll measure it. Wait minutes.

15mm. Some washers about 2 mm thickness beneath the stone. Without them stone hits its bearing housing.

15 mm. I answered by using another youtube account. He was me.

中国から買った801系の連結棒とブランコ一式が802と互換するのは当方で確認したとおりで逆のパターンも可能と思っています。 物理的には付くはずだけどついてるパーツ寸法に振れ幅があって責任は持てないし、もっと本音に迫ると他機種ユーザーには売らないってことだと思います。台湾TA KINGもそれは嫌うでしょうし。

If you have a stone roller, grind the internal edge of the bell knife with the stone roller. I didn't show any actual grinding process. Run machine and let the roller touch internal edge of bell knife. You can see the trueness of the cutting edge after the internal grinding. ruclips.net/video/6ixDCqyjtRI/видео.html I marked sharpie on the bell knife internal edge before grinding.

そうです。ミシンを日頃扱ってる店やメーカー視線でそう思うからこの精度でなんですね。「漉き機のここ、上下するのはミシン針棒や押え棒と同じだからあれくらいの精度でいいやろ、使うとすぐガタガタになるところやし」と思って仕事していそうです。

@@kazuhix どうせヘリ漉きがメインだしベタで漉きたいならバンドマシン買えって事だと思います

@191u singer そうです。 そしてベタ漉きに耐えれる精度が出ていない自覚があるのなら、丸刃漉き機でベタ漉きができますと謳う50ミリ幅の押えを作って抱き合わせやオプションとして売るのはしないはず…という話です。 英語でコメントくださる方がベタ漉き用押えや「丸刃ベタ漉きはこうやる」とドヤる動画をご覧になり「やわらかい豚革をベタで0.5ミリに漉く」とニットーテープや切れる丸刃やらで対策されてるんですが、交換可能なパーツより機械精度に左右されるとはいいづらく、本人が納得するまでやってみるのがいちばんです。「幅広の押さえがダメ」は他のところでも見たそうですが。彼の機械は深圳上海タキングですし…今のところ自分の機械の精度を測るためダイヤルゲージを当てる気にはなってないようですし。

そうですね、と書くべきなのですが、Fortunaに魂を売ってしまったわたしからみると、丸刃漉き機の発明に関わったのは別にして、改良の99%とかをもFortunaが最初に手掛けていて、ほぼ全部が本家のパクリです。 ミシンつくってるとこが漉き機も作り始めた流れがダメなのかも。ミシン設計技術や経験が生かせる箇所はどこにもないのにイキりやがって、みたいな😆 【追記】ニッピの刃に交換したらブレて使いものにならない、とクレーム入れたら逆切れされたというのを聞きました。「中国製機械にうちの刃をつけるな！」と。原因は刃の振れでなくこの動画のフランジ面が落ち着かないからですね。ニッピの刃の穴エッジがもっとピンカドなのは、多分中華機主軸フランジの角仕上げが良くないのを知って狙ってそうしてるんではと思いました。 そしてFにニッピの刃をつけてブレる事例でのクレームだったら反応が違うかもと。「Fにうちの刃をつけるな！…ん…いえ、Ｆですか…」。

I'm guessing no. What he showed is how to make feet for edge skiving which has two contours e.g. shallow ->steep. He has band knife machine for panel skiving.

@@kazuhix He often panel skives leather on his Nippy bell knife skiver.

@@pequodexpress Just for exhibition play only in front of the camera for us, who don't have band knife. Rare cases is that customer's leather was too wide for his 300 mm width band knife. Other than that, customers sprit whole leather to suitable thickness before die cutting. He said in video he took the panel skiving order on bell knife, but without taking any responsibility for failure. I don't remember what he said whether the work done successfully or not.

@@kazuhix I thought it was mainly for demonstration purposes, because he often pushes through to the point of failure, which gives me knots in my stomach because I hate to damage good leather. But some of us have to rely on panel skiving with the bell knife for actual projects.

@@pequodexpress Don't worry these errors, some spare pieces are usually included for adjustment. In some videos, all leather he skive was residual stock. Another important fact you might not be realized is that his skiving machine has been worn out so he is about to replace it to new before long. That's one of the reasons why errors occasionally happened.

I measured circumference at the center and end of feed roll in previous video. Longer tape is center and shorter is end. When you skive leather under the 50mm width foot, center is pulled fast. Both ends feed speed are slow, about 80% of the center as you can see by these yellow tapes. Now you might understand why I don't like wide foot for panel skiving.

@@kazuhix I also don't like the wide foot for panel skiving. Have you ground down the tips of the presser foot? My understanding of why to do this is to reduce tension on the leather.

By the way, I teared off an end of the longer tape before this video taken so you can't see any difference there.

@@kazuhix I thought maybe you were using the tape with magnets the way Iwabuchi san does.

Have you ever seen in Japan the shop magnets that Iwabuchi san uses?

Not sure. I’ve not bought new Fortuna bell knife yet.

@@kazuhix I'm trying to gauge how much of my Nippy 301A I have ground down in two months.

In this video, what I change on TAKING is presser foot guide rod assy. Fortuna has tighter tolerance and found both are exchangeable. It works almost near Fortuna does.

G/E

Golden Eagle knives are value for money but I can't say anything more thanthat because I bought only two Golden Eagle knives. It appears to be vary in hardness. Newly obtained Golden Eagle is made of harder iron. However, the differences among Chinese brand are not significant. Fortuna knives are made in quite different world and better quality. Next time I'll buy Fortuna.

@@kazuhix The Nippy 301A I put on my Chinese 801 machine seems better than the Taking knife that came with the machine, more reliable and smoother cutting by at least 20% to 30%. The 301A also seems to hold a sharp edge longer.

Curious brown Nitoflon. I've searched and found a lot of 923S Nitoflon tapes are sold in India/China market. On the other, Nitto doesn't appear to list # 923S on their catalog.

@@kazuhix You use the grey Nitto 903UL, yes?

@@pequodexpress Correct. t=0.18 mm.

@@kazuhix I will try to buy again, but this time grey. Iwabuchi San says grey is noticeably different, noticeably better.

I bought 13x0.18x10m for more than $20 here in Japan. I guess a item cheaper than $20 might be fake.

It appears to be dangerous but my fingers are fully guarded from knife, only narrow slot for handle is open.

I agree with you especially panel skiving, most benign curve is required.

@@kazuhix Do you know what the purpose is for those feet with a sharper bevel?

@@pequodexpress　Iwabuchi San explained it in a series of videos: ruclips.net/video/5G82jvTBOOs/видео.html He is talking the importance of gradual edge skiving and how the foot for it looks like.

@@kazuhix Thank you for this link. Did you get the links to my two videos?

@@kazuhix Iwabuchi San's videos are amazing. I need to study them in depth and try to translate what writing he provides in Japanese. The visuals alone are amazing. I need to try to understand more what he his actually talking about.

Your machine's DD pulley mates with motor shaft so I don't think your machine has both center screw and threaded shaft, you saw in this video. Instead, your DD pulley should have lateral set screw(s) which can easily be recognized by eye(s).

@@kazuhix You are correct. Mine is different, but it is in that location that I have to figure out how to slip a belt over a wheel, and I'm not sure where to go banging about. I will have to take video tomorrow and post it to my channel to show you.

@@pequodexpress The machine in this video is Precise Fortuna from another world. I don't think you need to bang anything. Loosening the motor fixing screws then it pops out.

I watched this now then I'm realized that my 55mm foot has larger radius, so it doesn't work 0.5mm panel skiving. Check out radius of your 55mm foot.

@@kazuhix My 55mm foot matches the radius of my red rubber roller quite well. The problem with 55mm is the stress on the leather at both ends. I think 45mm might be the sweet spot. Someone told me not to go wider than 30mm for panel skiving. I'm not too sure about that. I think 45mm will be good.

@@pequodexpress I agree with someone. After confirming no mistake happen with 30mm foot, then try next wider, and then.

@@kazuhix I have a 30mm foot that works well. 55mm was surprisingly good and made me think that 45mm might be the sweet spot.

@@kazuhix Look at the adjustment these guys make. I never thought about that set screw. ruclips.net/video/rLtfiJOjmnM/видео.html

My trimmed leather scraper has recently been flipped out. This may only occur Taiwan TK-802 and I suppose one of two scrapers should be removed. Which scraper should be remained may depends on property of skived leather but I'm not sure.

I've not tried Nippy. Golden Eagle brand and genuine Taiwan TAKING knives are as good as Fortuna knife. Try 40mm or grind (but not cut to 40mm in this case) your 55mm foot at both ends, so as to gradually away from knife circle.

@@kazuhix The knife on my machine is engraved "TAKING." It's not bad, but I don't think it is authentic Taiwanese. Maybe it is; I don't know. I have more presser feet on order: 35mm, 40mm, 45mm, and 50mm, plus some roller feet.

@@pequodexpress I choose Chinese Golden Eagle knife. Good enough and cheap. I wrote it by mistake as "Golden wheel"

@@kazuhix I have seen Golden Eagle knives for sale. I will let you know how the Nippy 301A performs. I know that better steel makes a world of difference with manual leather knives. I'm hoping a Nippy 301A will make a big difference, not just holding a sharp edge for a longer period of time. I want it to panel skive to 0.5mm consistently without fail.

I can 10mm edge skive to 0.5mm all day long without fail, but I need to split lining leather down to 0.5mm.

I have only clear yellowish urethane rollers and I feel this should be in harder group. I'll also try red next. Thank you for your information.

When I receive my spare roller-arm assembly, I will experiment with different rollers.

I think I've already answered in other reply, I like Golden Eagle brand.

IIRC, #150. Little bit finer is better for skiving machine.

I prefer 40mm. Feed roller is barrel shape so feed rate at center and end of roller is not identical. The difference is 20%. ruclips.net/video/l-6_x1XepNY/видео.html at 2:45. This differential feed lets leather stretched at center and folded at the further end, resulted in fail. More importantly, front and back edge of foot ends should be grind until no scratch line on top surface of the skived leather.

I've been playing with that tension for a while and be realized that "forget about that spring tension" myth is wise caution, because the tension adjustment is not drastically affect the result, compared with Fortunas which have much stronger dual-rate (rising rate) lateral direction springs.

Now the machine has Mitsubishi Limiservo with 1:6 reduction. No compliant.

I bought two Chinese clone machines, both are shipped partially finished state, as you can see hear the strange sound in other video.

I've noticed that Happy stone color is created by adding different color matter. Abrasive particles themselves appear to be white. So I guess no grid/hardness difference between color is there.

@@kazuhix HAPPY blue is definitely coarser than HAPPY white. Meccanica ITA orange and Fengfa orange might be just as fine grit as HAPPY white, and perhaps better quality.

@@pequodexpress Thank you for your information. Actually I've not ever seen Happy white stone yet. People who use Nippy knife and stones generally said Nippy white is for harder knife and the other (pumpkin?) is for regular knife.

@@kazuhix HAPPY is a very inexpensive brand. I bought some, because they are cheap and I wanted to try them. Fengfa seems to be a better inexpensive brand for the 16mm machines. I will probably end up sticking with Fengfa and Meccanica ITA pumpkin/orange. People say to get good quality stones. HAPPY is definitely the lowest quality. Worth trying because it is cheap, but still low quality.

@@pequodexpress I'll stick with Happy, because the price. Concern issue is that it wears fast and make much abrasive particles than chips from bell knife.

Taiwan TAKING

I'm curious about your dual DD motor machine. Turn a collar, if you have a lathe. Fortuna has 17mm stone shaft so I took off plastic collar from the hole of new stone. I think you can also took off collar from older stone and put it in new stone, then you have a15mm id stone with two layers of collars.

@@kazuhix I may need your help with changing the belt on my Chinese Taking Direct Drive TK-801DAA. How can I contact you to show you pictures?

@@kazuhix Imagine a skiving machine that could be placed on any tabletop or shelf, no need for a large dedicated sewing machine table. That's what my TK-801DAA is.

@@pequodexpress your machine is dd, so the belt you want to change should be a grinding stone drive belt. I'm not familiar with dual/triple motor machine but you have the motor between knife/feed motors or inside the body. Otherwise, if your machine doesn't have grinder motor and the belt is driven by the knife shaft DD motor pulley in the skiving machine body, I have no idea how to replace it. If you can't find proper replacement belt, you can use fine toothed belt for pc printers or something.

@@kazuhix I have a source for the belts. Good to know about the PC printer belts, just in case. My machine has one motor for the knife and grinder and one motor for the feed roller. I have to disassemble some part of the knife shaft (underside of the machine) in order to take the old belt off and put the new one on. I don't have to do this yet, just doing my research ahead of time.

Your description is too abstract to be answered. Motor belt tension and both side of main shaft play may cause.

@@kazuhix I mean when the knife rotates, it looks like wobbling. Skiving results is still good, but not for very thin results. Ex: If skiving again go through the side that already, even torn apart. (Sorry if it's convoluted) 😅

@@something8428 Most probably too much knife shaft play. If you are familiar with bicycle or motorcycle, the shaft play can be adjusted as steering stem. In short, there may be double nuts or taper keyway and screw there, as you can see my Fortuna v50 videos.

Is there a possibility that the knife mount plate worn out??

@@something8428 Do you mean knife mounting flange is wobbling? Excessive force can bend the flange. I've heard that some of Chinese skivers already have bent flange even if they are new.

砥石作動レバーの根本、本体の内側に左右方向にテンションがかかるコイルバネがあり、レバーを下に引っ張っており、それが砥石プーリーを右に移動させる働きをしています。モータープーリーを外して本体を引き上げて、バネが無事か確認してみてください。うちの機械では砥石を回さないレバー位置ではポッチを引っ掛けて動かないようになっています。レバーを上げた状態で本体と1mmの隙間、レバーを下に入れた状態で右プーリーの壁と5mmほど隙間があります。ほかにはベルトの向きを変える小さいプーリーが２つついているアームの根本の油切れで動きが渋くてベルト張力が弱い可能性があります。ぜんまいバネの中心に注油です。ベルトが若干長いかもです。確か980mmだったと思います。

Alternatively, the shaft can be removed as assembly with pulley and bearing holder. Tight fit. After the 3 bolts at the other side are removed, it should still be stuck there. Carefully hit it from inside but not to hit too hard because it appear to be made of phenolic resin (= brittle), not steel or iron. After taking out them, you can easily loosen the special screw.

The belt of Fortuna 50 series can be installed without effort or disassemble. You might have a wrong belt. I was using K 22 or 21 belt. K belt cross section is a bit smaller than M belts, found commonly on industrial sewing machines.

@@kazuhix no way, I have the wheel for the belt on the main shaft, not on the rear one for the roller

and there is a heavy metal part (screwed down with 3 screws to the body) around the pulley wheels on the main (knife) shaft, which also bears one bearing of the main shaft, and this metal part prevents from simple installment of the belt.. also it can be unsrewed only when you take away the pulley wheels, which is possible only if you unscrew the "fork" in the inside (from the bottom) and take out the shaft... crazy, I don't get it, this construction is just stupid, but I didn't know it, whe I was buying it...

@@jurajv1418 Your machine is an old Fortuna like this? leatherworker.net/forum/topic/94717-old-fortuna-identification/?tab=comments#comment-645055 I don't know anything about those machine.

進歩が遅いですよね。三菱サーボは10年以上歩みを止めてるのに追いつかない。

@@kazuhix シーケンス制御は余程の量産品をやらないなら要らないだろうと パナソニックのサーボモーターの開発をやっていた叔父から言われました… 確かに型で抜いた様な物を次々と縫うなら便利ですが手切りのサイズブレが有るのを縫うなら 微調整しなければならないのでマニュアル操作でも良いんですよね 糸切り機能は切るよりも押さえてくれるのが便利なのと下糸の節約にはなりますね 新し目の操作盤をオプションすると量産は捗りますね エア駆動はいつも外してしまうので部品は余っていますよ 電磁式膝上げなんかも今のところは不要ですが長年ミシンを踏んでいると膝上げ動作の為に 体幹が曲がるみたいですね まあそんなに仕事しないので気にはしてませんw

@@191usinger4 さん　縫い損ねると針穴が残る革では、反復大量生産でない限り糸切りは向いていないようですね。帆布や内張りなどの仕立てには便利そうです。

@@kazuhix 糸切りミシンが革には向いていないってのは45kさんからのリンクで見られる厚物ミシンのブログに書かれていて レザークラフターには常識かと…　釜位置が下がり締まりが良くないとの事 針の保持には水平釜が良いが糸締まりには半回転釜なかなか難しい問題ではあります 以前のスナール防止の工夫は参考になりました

@@191usinger4 さん　カマ位置は下がるのはもうひとつデメリットがあり、糸切り無しより2ミリくらい薄いものしか縫えなくなり、10ミリが縫えません。押さえ棒調整して厚いのが入るようにすると、外押えが針板まで降りなくなりました。てなわけで糸切り機能を使わないと置いておく意味がないんですロングベッドLLW8があるので。

コメントありがとうございます。革板が樽に沿ってないなら合わせてください。丸刃めっき板のほうはまだ最終結論に達していません。