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@@TipsyFlipper Love the Marvel game!

Thanks for watching!!!

We recorded this a few weeks ago, so I didn't even make that connection. LOL. Looking forward to hearing the podcast episode and sharing it!

eh?

Thanks for watching! (And enjoying our beat boxing intro.) We appreciate the kind words and will email you asap about the List.

Beat boxer here! Glad you liked it. I've made a Star Wars adaptation of DC20 that I believe we will be doing soon. I was extremely surprised how easily DC20 can be extended... basically just had to add trades like "engineer", "pilot", etc. No new skills needed. Weapon system made making the sabers and blasters very easy. Making a Force User class was really fun (between Psy and Spellblade). Ancestries were the only thing that took a bit of work.

As a player, I'm okay when that happens to the GM. lol

Hi! We’re always excited to discover and try out new systems! Feel free to let us know about any games you have in mind. We love exploring fresh options and might add them to our must-play list. Thanks for tuning in!

@ link sent

I agree the calculations are not hard on a character by character basis. I still think AoE can get a bit awkward. If you are running a game and there are 4 different enemies that get hit by a fireball, you are having to do 4 different calculations or lookups on the fly. I'm not a fan of anything that takes me more than a couple seconds to record damage.

Congratulations on contributing to the game! Sorry we didn't have enough experience with the game to discuss it. But, I bought the A5E Bundle so I'm excited to learn more about A5E. What do you feel are some reasons that players should check out A5E? Hopefully we can cover it in the future.

Yes, that was our conclusion as well - none will "kill" D&D. I also agree about Daggerheart. I think something about the system just isn't going to make mainstream. If it were, I think it would have spread more than it has already.

That sounds a bit like our channel! haha. I've done a LOT of PF1 but not 2. I've also heard very good things about Shadowdark, so we'll have to try that for sure. Another possibility is that we'll see in-person games completely switch to different system, as Hasbro explicitly stated they are moving to a completely digital experience.

That's a nice collection of alternate games you have! I'm a big fan of PbtA (especially Monster of the Week) and Fate. I have a bunch of the DCC books and love how wild their adventure concepts are, but haven't actually GM'ed or played it yet. We have been hearing so many good things about Shadowdark, so that one is on the list for a future GenrePlay for sure. It's exciting to see so many new games in the last decade.

It's hard to compare. If you like 5e, but wish it was a bit more narrative forward with some rules light stuff, then Daggerheart is better. On the otherhand, if you like 5e but want something different, that is better made and feels like it should have been what D&D 6e SHOULD have been? Then DC20 is a better bet. Personally, I like DC20 the best of all the new games coming out. Many of my friends like Daggerheart better, but they are also rules-light narrative-forward fans more than I am.

@greghorvay thanks, yea I like it so far the best too, even if I would have done some things differently. Gonna wait for both releases though and give both a shot (again)

They both kind of try to streamline a DnD-style of game. My impression is that DC20 is more successful in doing that. Daggerheart, while most of the new mechanics (hope and fear, damage threshholds, etc.) are interesting and arguably cool by themselves, it just feels like there are a lot of moving parts to manage and maybe isn't much simpler than DnD. It's just more _different_ than DnD. DC20 really feels like it simplifies DnD mechanics while (perhaps paradoxically) still giving players more options for using their action economy. The only thing I find a bit odd in DC20 is the prime stat mechanic, where you can use whatever is your highest stat as your spell and attack modifier. I think it's actually good mechanically, but I feel like using e.g. strength for arcane casting is hard to justify in RP terms.

@@ninjaaron I think even better would be in DC20 just using your prime as the max possible bonus at any level. that would make spreading your stats also a viable strategy. No need to base it on your highest stat then and you can RP in any way you like

@@Chris3s I think there is an optional rule in the play test material to do exactly that, if I recall correctly.

Completely agree. Now granted, DC20 only has levels 1 and 2, so we'll have to see. I think I saw on your channel you all have home-brewed higher levels, though? I tell people, if you like 5e but want something more rules-light and narrative forward, then maybe give Daggerheart a chance. But if you are like me and think 5e has the right balance of strategy, skills, rules, narrative, but want a system that is basically better in every way and frankly what 6e SHOULD have been? Then DC20 is king.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! You’re definitely not alone in feeling that way about classes and levels. I suspect we’ll have a future episode talking more about that. It sounds like you've really found your sweet spot with Ahris as a 'crunchy narrative' RPG. I’m not very familiar with that game. Is that 2d20 from Modiphius? What are some mechanics or aspects in Ahris that you think really make it shine? Thanks again for watching and adding to the conversation!

@@cabbitcrossing Thanks for the reply! Ahris is indeed built on 2d20 SRD. It leans toward narrative but it's not rules-light. Few standout features that I like: - it uses traits pretty heavily which are a bit like fate's aspects but implemented better for my taste (you don't need to use points to "activate" them, only narrative justification) - it has good point buy toolkits for creating your own talents(akin to feats) and spells so creating very customized characters and settings is very feasible - skills aren't locked to one attribute but you can use attribute + skill -combinations quite freely if it makes sense (like brawn + interact to intimidate if you're using your size&strength to do so) - it has rules for social conflicts too - on top of all that narrative handwavy stuff there's still enough mechanics, gear, etc. to differentiate between characters and employ all kinds of tactics It's not a well known system but well written and designed and IMHO deserves more attention :)

Thanks for sharing these insights! The concept of Campaign Frames in Daggerheart is an intriguing way to shift tone and setting. A Dark Souls-esque Campaign Frame sounds exciting! Once the game is out, we’ll definitely have to try one of the Campaign Frames and see how it plays. Your idea of reworking animal-like ancestries to fit more serious settings is really cool. Have you come across any other creative Campaign Frame ideas in the Darrington Press discord?

@@cabbitcrossing i don't think i've seen others' campaign frames in the discord or otherwise, i know there's one person there in particular working on a decent expansion already but i think most homebrewers are waiting for the final rules since we don't know what exactly will change and what will stay the same.

@@thoth7858 I'm very impressed with the creativeness of Daggerheart. So much in that game is innovative. It's both their greatest asset and also the thing holding it back - since it's so different from 5e.

Thanks for watching! We have more DC20 actual plays coming soon. And thanks for the feedback! We'll see if we can increase the Charisma score on those in the near future.

We sure do! We’ve got more DC20 actual plays coming soon, plus new Behind the Dice episodes where we dive deeper into the system. Stay tuned!

Then why do you think Pathfinder 1e killed D&D 4e?

@@greghorvay you gotta keep in perspective the scale difference. If everyone who played dnd 3.5e quit dnd 5e today, no one would even notice the loss of players. Dnd 5e is orders of magnitude greater in popularity. - So yeah, dnd 4e’s mechanical changes absolutely resulted in the birth of a major competitor in pathfinder 1e, but vast majority of current dnd 5e players know nothing of dnd 4e or pathfinder 1e. They were brought in by stranger things and critical roll and social media. These new players who make up like 90% of current players, arent here because dnd 5e is mechanically different from dnd 4e. They’re here cuz dnd 5e was the current version of the game when they were drawn in.

@@bonzwah1 Yeah, I agree with all that. So why do you think Daggerheart hasn't gotten much attention given one of the major sources of 5e popularity (Critical Role) is promoting it? Is it becaues CR has fallen off the radar compared to back then?

Daggerheart isn't getting the praise I think it deserves, and I'm not sure why.

Interesting

Thanks for the recommendation! I've heard good things about that game. We'll add that to the list for a future GenrePlay session.

Thanks for watching!

Excellent question! If 5e feels too superhero-like for you, DC20 will likely have a similar vibe, especially at higher levels. While Dungeon Coach has recently added a Novice and Level 0 character options to help balance power early on, later levels will likely feel just as epic or superhero-like as 5e. If you're looking for something different for your fantasy game, you might enjoy systems like RuneQuest (BRP d100 rules), Mythras Classic Fantasy (Mytras d100 rules), Realms of Peril (d20, rules-lite PbtA meets OSR game), or Dungeon World (2d6 PbtA rules). These games don’t have the same escalating hit points, which is a big factor in that superhero feel. We will have upcoming episodes talking about (or playing) more DC20 and many of the games I just mentioned. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I completely agree. To get around this, I often just take a fear and don't give consequences like you say. Sometimes I make the result bad enough when rolling fear that I don't take a fear token too.

Hahaha ive been playing this way since the playtest started. Its just too difficult for me as a GM to routinely adjudicate 5 distinct and satisfying outcomes for every roll. Everyone still feels the looming threat when i get a fear token and the consolation of getting a hope token. The system totally works with every roll being binary success/failure

The problem with making a 24 the only way to crit is that it happens less than 1% of the time. It's only a little more common than getting a double 20 on 2d20, which if you've played a lot of 5e you'll know feels like you've seen a unicorn when it happens.

@@Winnarly No, I mean make doubles (current RAW: critical success) count as 24 on the dice. So whether you get 2 1s or 2 12s, it's 24 for checks and a critical strike on attacks (1 in 12 vice 1 in 144). I personally don't like critical success/failures for checks (though I like D&D's 1 always misses and 20 always crits on attack rolls since it means anyone can land or avoid a hit against anything).

@@Kylora2112 In 5e I usually have a homebrew where a nat 20 on a skill check adds an additional +5, and a -5 on a nat 1

Happy to hear that! We will try to keep revisiting Daggerheart over time for discussions and actual plays.

Yes, it's a nice improvement on how Pathfinder handles action points.

Honestly, I like the "by 5" rule a lot, but I think the action system is probably what I like most about it. DC really figured out how to allow the most choice without giving choice overload each round.

Wow, great feedback. Yep, I heard about the final version video after we posted haha. Totally agree with the connections part. I don't think we'd do it for a long term campaign. However, for a long term campaign, I'd still use the collaborative world building. That part is awesome. I need to find some better tokens, or find a roll of pennies or something :D

This is as great observation that I missed when discussing it (probably because only level 1-2 are released.) Indeed combat mastery is included in the defense calculation... interesting.

I'll point out that this mechanic is taken from Pathfinder 2e. DC20 just turned the scaling down, adding half your level instead of your full level like PF2E does. I'm glad DC20 uses it too, since it's a great system, but it isn't something "no other dnd system had".

Totally. That's why at 10th level, you only get slightly more HP but your thresholds increase instead. Even then, you are at most only doing 3 HP per a hit (4 if you use the optional rule). Not sure what I think about that. Will have to test it at higher level. Have you tried it?

​@@greghorvayI've tried it, it's *smooth as hell*. I've played other systems that are built similar to HP thresholds, and they used the terms "hit points" and "wounds". You could eat a LOT of HP damage but if you stack too many wounds you're done - and I always preferred that more granular system over D&D's generic hit points. Big hits still matter, completely, because tougher enemies have higher damage thresholds, so rolling a big damage hit still feels really impactful, like you're cracking through iron-hard defenses or whatever.

@@TherronKeen We tried playing with their new updates. We had to homebrew it a bit since they haven't released it and only talked about it on the live stream. It worked out WAY better. Dealing with Armor Slots now takes about 1 second and doesn't slow down the game at all.

Looks like this got addressed! As armor will effect your damage thresholds instead of classes

@@insane8ra1n50 yep. It looks like almost everything I commented on got addressed! Lol

​@@greghorvayevery update I've seen from this game has addressed basically every complaint I've had. This is the best damn development cycle I've ever seen in a physical game product lol. It's impressive as hell

@@TherronKeen I agree. Never seen a group iterate on feedback so nicely. We tried playing with their new updates. We had to homebrew it a bit since they haven't released it and only talked about it on the live stream. It worked out WAY better. Dealing with Armor Slots now takes about 1 second and doesn't slow down the game at all.

I got that Novice/Level 0 magazine, but I haven't read it yet. Great feedback!

I like the "by 5" rule as well, which I said on the video. I guess some people really do like the all-or-nothing aspect of 5e. When I go back to playing 5e, rolling an 19 feels so lame now :D

I really like DC20, so I'm nitpicking here, but... I agree with you about the the heavy/brutal hits. My only problem is AOEs. I can only image a player throwing a fireball and hitting like 4 types of creatures. Now I have to look between 4 different normal/heavy/brutal numbers and it does slow down the game. Whenever I'm DMing and I have to take more than a second to write down damage, it bothers me; especially for a system that I think simplified damage everywhere else in the system.

@@greghorvay I see your point, but I think to a large degree it just comes with anything heavier than a rules-light system. As soon as you have separate mechanics for armor, weapons, accuracy and modifiers to those systems, there's always going to be a little bit of clunk to it in terms of AoE abilities. I tried this (loosely) when I was running 5e, but you could try and take the initiative system and modify that to a general save for groups. I forget the phrasing, but the initiative test is supposed to roughly represent the overall difficulty of the encounter, so for the purposes of AoE abilities, you could just use that number as the save. Example: Initiative roll is for 16, so when the Boblin the Goblin and his crew get fireball'd, just reference the initiative and if it passes, it passes. A bit of development would go a long way toward this solution, but I'm just loosely spit-balling ATM

What would you rate it? How did it compare for you to the original movie?

@@cabbitcrossing As said by you guys in the show. It's not as good as the original and feels like more of a spin - off than a sequel. I quite enjoyed it so out of ten I'd probably give it a solid 8. The OG version was a solid 9 or 10.

By scaling, I meant progress. How do you show a level 10 is more powerful than a level 1. 5e is mostly just about extra attacks/dice/HP. I'm curious what DC20 will do since there aren't extra attacks and the HP isn't crazy high like 5e gets.

@@greghorvay Ok. Aren’t more options and skill success probability enough to demonstrate a Character’s progression. That would show they are picking up a variety of trick from their experience. Additional talents also would suffice.

@@TheGladGolem I think there has to be some more survivability too. Otherwise high level combat would be 1 turn long, and extremely dangerous

@@greghorvay I like the sound of that!

@@greghorvay In terms of survivability, that can easily come from Talents, class features, magic items and other things as well. That said I personally like that combat at high level is dangerous. Obviously that should depend on what the combat actually is (basic goblins should not be TPKing a 10+ level party), but assuming you're facing a thematically appropriate enemy, combat SHOULD be dangerous. One of my biggest pet peeves with 5e (and part of why I stopped running it) was past like 5th or 6th level it's basically impossible to die outside of actively TRYING to kill the players which is generally looked down upon.

That's my favorite thing about the system as well: It's very intuitive. The discord has a lot of cheat sheets as well. People even turned the maneuvers into cards and such there.