Видео

Thanks. I used a fairly standard spacing from an old planting book I have. 6m in the row and 7.5m between the rows. I also staggered the rows so the trees in each row sit in the gaps of the rows either side if that makes sense. At that spacing it will be quite an enclosed orchard in the end I believe. As I don't graze the orchard I am not too worried. If I was planting a grazed orchard I would use a larger spacing as the wear of grazing and the shading of the spacing would risk a lot of bare soil which would mean the fruit would rot too fast when it is down imho.

You're a legend. Thanks for responding so quickly! I realize the video is from several months back. I am about to get stuck into planting 7.5 acres and have been doing my head in as to the different permutations of how to fit as many trees in as possible! There just isn't much info about planting standard cider trees about - at least not info with a justified explaination as you have provided - eg. why 6m and not 10m as some suggest. @@llanblethianorchards

Not a problem, glad to be of help. One thing you need to consider is harvest time. Traditionally the earliest harvesting varieties were planted furthest from the gate and the latest varieties right at the entrance of the orchard, this was to minimise damage caused to the land by harvest machinery going back and forth. My orchard becomes a mud pit every harvest.... Two books that talk about planting distances are: Growing cider apples by the NACM (National association of cider makers) Perry Pears by the national fruit and cider institute. The apple book is available from the nacm directly I think the pears book is a unicorn now.... Both talk about matching tree variety vigor, rootstock vigor and soil condition. A bit of a black art but Very vigorous trees could be put on slightly smaller rootstocks so the end tree sizes match and vice versa with very dwarfing varieties. Hope that helps. I collect books on cider making and sadly they keep on going out of print. The Hereford cider museum often has a good stock in their bookshop just fyi.

This is great information. Thank you so much for sharing. Thanks for the tip on the books, I will look them up. I'm an enologist and have been making wine around the globe (mainly Australia) for 25 years, but fate has me in eastern europe now planting my cider apple orchard and starting my re-education! You are right about rootstock selection being a balck art...there are so many factors that can have an effect - not least of all plain old incompatibility which may only "pop up" when conditions are right even years after planting. I do all of my own grafting and due to the high risk of sporadic freezing events in winter I am limited to A2, P18, P14(for something smaller) Antonovka (too variable for me), but I have found that while varieties like Dabinett, Brown's or Yarlington Mill will "take" on any rootstock, whereas older types like Foxwhelp, Golden Harvey or Sweet Alford are almost easier to propagate as cuttings. @@llanblethianorchards

Found the book Perry Pears in an Oxfam shop would you believe! The NACM book is proving more difficult. Are there any other titles that you would consider essential reading?

How about a part 2😍🍎🍏🍾🥂😍

Thanks :) I use M25 for the apples. Planting distance was 7.5m between rows and 6m inter-row. The rows were also staggered to give the trees more room. Plantings I have done since are a 6m square. It depends upon how much pruning you want to do, soil conditions and tree vigor I would say. Some trees such as Dabinett do not get too big on harder soil types such as mine so can be planted closer whereas other varieties such as Bramley's seedling grow into monsters. If I was doing it again I would have rows of single varieties planted at an inter-row spacing based on the vigor to maximise yield. ie. a row of Golden Knob (which is a tiny tree) I would do at 4m inter-row spacing whereas I would do Yarlington Mill at a 7-8m inter-tree spacing do to their size. Hope that helps?

@@llanblethianorchards Very much, thank you! I'm in Brittany, planting mainly local cider varieties, but still very much starting out - but would get some yarlington mill immediately if I had the chance! :)

Depends upon the pear variety but usually the juice is very nice. Often the pears themselves are completely inedible due to the tannin content but the juice is a lot less tannic. This is because the tannins in pears are a lot less soluble than the tannins in apples and do not enter the juice. It's also one of the reasons why the maceration period is considered so important with perry making as it can reduce the tannin content further.

Thanks. I will keep it in mind for this season, I should have enough Stoke Red this year to do a single variety. Might make a fun video, it's one of my favourite Single Varieties to do as a natural sweet.

That was fantastic. What a joy. Old Foxwhelp is still extant btw, I grow it here on the Downeast of Maine, along with Broxwood and Red Foxwhelp. Lovely collection Alex! I have a similar compulsion - I need to grow them all! :)

@@dfulton12477 Thanks, i'm glad you like it. Yes I agree, you can never have too many apple varieties LOL. I didn't know old Foxwhelp still exists, great to hear it is still going strong :D

Thanks. Good luck with your perry pears. Thorn and Yellow Huffcap are both wonderful varieties :D. If you can stop the fermentation early with the Thorn it makes a wonderfully fruity drink.

Thanks, I will do the apple tour in Mid May when the bulk are flowering.

​@@llanblethianorchardsWonderful stuff. I hope you'll find the time to do two videos - 6 batteries for 50 varieties; 90 seconds for each - could work!

I have one mis-labeled tree from the nursery at my barn that I think is sweet Alford but none in the main orchard. I will be doing full virtual tour in May :)

Thanks, glad you liked it.

I use white spirit. Any cheapo diy store stuff will do. I believe they are called mineral spirits if you live in the Americas.

Thanks for this very useful video. Really appreciate the time it takes you to make these.

Thanks for the suggestion, a crap apple may well be the answer :D

@@llanblethianorchards great for jam making too or adding to cider for the sharpness.

@@dm20011988 I have a few smaller crab apple trees in the orchard further away. Yes they do make a lovely jam. Did one with scotch bonnets and garlic last year, very cheeky :D

No, the dabinetts are on M25 rootstock. It's quite a naturally dwarfing variety on harder conditions.

Many thanks, I'm glad you liked it. That orchard sounds great :D. If you are willing to graft trees getting some scion wood of the rarer varieties may be the only way to do it. I am part of a facebook group called the UK Scion exchange facebook.com/groups/368856703488398 and every year I swap wood with other producers. A group like that may be your best bet?

@@llanblethianorchards This is what I need! Thank you!

Thanks. It's a Dji mini 2 and smartphone. I do have one of those cheap vr goggles that you can plug a smartphone in as well. I do keep clipping the trees mind. I just have a bag full of spare propellers. The drone still flies even with bit missing in the props lol. I also use a different smartphone app to the dji one on my smartphone as well called Litchi. Biggest problem in truth is seeing the smartphone screen on a bright day. I aim to get one of those sun shades for the smartphone next.

They're actually oak trees they have been planted by the squirrels. I am going to dig them up and plant them on a part of the orchard that is too wet for apple trees to make a small oak woodland (I like smoking food so free oak wood is always welcome ;)). Just been unable to do it for a few years.

@@llanblethianorchards Ha! Understood. Those blasted squirrels :) No matter how long we spend in our orchards, there is always at least one more job to do!

Thanks :) I have an orchard ladder that helps get up into the canopies and I use pole pruners and saws to increase my reach. I will be filming a bit of the pruning with the ladder and poles in the next video :)

Thanks. Yes it does. When the big pear trees flower it's like something from one of those old Samurai movies when the wind catches the old blossoms and they drift about.

There is quite a size difference between the varieties, yes. Rootstock also determins it as well. Dabinett is a pretty dwarfing variety naturally whereas Morgans Sweet grows into monster trees. I am surprised your Foxwhelp and Stoke Red are smaller than the Tremletts in truth. It's the other way around for me. Stoke Red and Broxwood Foxwhelp are two of the largest trees in my orchard. Are they all on the same rootstock? In one of the orchard books they have a chart listing top variety vigour and rootstock vigour and suggest using a less vigourous rootstock on very vigorous top varieties to try andd get all the end tree sizes the same. They also suggest interplanting the vigorous varieties with the more dwarfing ones to fill up the space better. Not much use to you now I know, but may be a thought if you plant more?

@Peter - The Book of Apples by Morgan and Richards has a small appendix listing the vigour of various cider apples (Just the apples at the NFC which is a shortish list of 50 or so). Rootstock, soil and how you tend to the trees can make a difference. Keep in mind that your Morgan's Sweet is also a Triploid which adds a bit of genetic oomph as well. You'll see that in other Triploids to varying degrees (Ashmeads, Blenheim Orange, Bulmers Norman, Crimson King, Court Royal etc). I always graft those to a smaller rootstocks and Dabinett, Harry Masters etc I put on MM111s.

@@dfulton12477 Thank you so much, will go online to see if I can get this book today! The horticulturalist I bought my cider tees off of has since passed away, never mentioned this to me, No wonder my Dabinett look tiny. Cheers

M25 for the apples (with a couple of crab apples for pollenation on M106). The pears were all sold to me as being on pear seedling (pyrus communis) rootstock. The biggest pear trees must be on that. The pears came from a few different nurseries but in truth I am sceptical about the ones supplied fom one of the nurseries. Those trees are much smaller and there is a noticeable size difference between the rootstock and the top tree and they are not well anchored and keep falling over. Always wanted to get them tested to figure out the issue.

thanks

They are used for the secondary fermentation and for storage. They are quite an investment but I bought them for some reasons. My barn is pretty small as you can see. I used to use IBC's and IBC's with the tops cut off with giant storage bags inside for long term storage. I used to have them two high and filled one side of the barn to the ceiling. To remove them from the barn when empty I had to dead lift them up on top of the other IBC's drag them along the top and gently lower them by the door and drag them outside for cleaning. It was frankly exhausting when I was 20, now I'm over 40 it's too much for me and I injured my shoulder over lockdown moving one as I couldn't get help and I realised things had to change. As the tanks are fixed and I have a CIP system I don't have to spend my days dragging IBC's around and mucking about with IBC liner bags. So it is a lot less work for me and frankly much quicker saving me time. Also oxygen is the enemy of cider makers and even though I was using IBC liner bags with an oxygen barrier layer there was still a shelf life on the cider as oxygen will slowly dissolve through the liner bags. The metal tanks are completely sealed against oxygen and with a zero pressure co2 system to add co2 whenever you rack off your cider so it will last a lot longer. Finally the liner bags are single use plastic and get really mucky. Cleaning them out after use, splitting them down and bagging up the plastic for recycling is a really foul job, glad to see the back of it!😅

@Llanblethian Orchards Cider Makers Thanks for the detailed and useful explanation. The addition of the Co2 to increase its life is a totally new topic to me. I will have to look into that in more detail. I currently produce around 500l per year and normally consume or sell it before it is 12 months old (since it was pressed). One thing I have learned more recently is that the flavour gets better the longer I leave it. As you suggest, though, I suspect that if I stored it much longer than I do currently, I would no doubt run into the issue of oxygen spoilage. Out of interest, what is your opinion on the optimum time from pressing to it being consumed? Also, how long would you comfortably be able to store your cider for, using the steel tanks and co2 that you describe? Thanks.

@@bigcol2233 the optimum time from pressing to consumption can vary depending upon what you are intending to be honest. Over time the tannins will mellow out in a cider. Some of the acidity could be reduced by the malolactic fermentation. Different bacteria can alter the character of a cider and can change the flavour drastically. The apple flavour can be greatly reduced over time as well. So if you are intending a fruity apply cider with a great aroma you would be serving it pretty young in my opinion, 3-4 months after the end of fermentation perhaps? Whereas if you were intending a traditional oak aged dry cider with a complex flavour with the characteristic 'old horse / farmyard' character you may be ageing it in oak barrels for over a year. Sorry to be vague, I make several different styles of cider and each one is made it's own way. I don't have space to store for multiple years in truth so everything is made and sold the same year. Some is sold in the Spring as fruity 'cider nouveau' as it were made out of sharper fruitier apple varieties and older drier ciders are sold later in the Autumn after they have matured some made out of more bittersweet apple blends

@@llanblethianorchards Thank you once again

All bar 3 on M25 rootstock. As I have a compact tractor that needs to get down the rows I initially drove all the trees up to 2m clear trunk before the first branch. I drove the trees up using the old method of each year dividing the tree into 3 parts vertically. The bottom third remove all branches. The middle third cut back to 6 odd buds on a branch the top third leave alone. I never removed more than a third of the branches in a year either. I also aim to have one central leader as I grow in the Christmas tree style rather than the older goblet style if that makes sense. Now they are bigger I am slowly driving the trunks up a bit higher as the branches are bending down with the crops and getting in the way of the tractor. With day to day pruning I try and remove branches that are too vertical (as they will crack under heavy crops), remove branches if not enough light is getting to the ground and remove all canker on sight. Hope that helps.

I dont pre sterilise the bags, no. I run the pasteuriser at 67C and I worked out as long as the bag is at 64C or above at the end of filling when I seal it up - it will self sterilise due to the residual PU's (pasteurisation units). I've only had two failed pasteurisations in 2000 odd bags and both of those I believe to be issues with the tap rather than the process. I would not heat to 80C unless you plan to flash pasteurise it to be honest. At that temperature it will affect the flavour markedly.

@Llanblethian Orchards Cider Makers Hi. I'm interested in 'copying' your pump bypass assembly using the same Camlocks etc. I've done a bit of research into which fittings I might need, but it still seems like a bit of a minefield! Could I trouble you for a simple list or diagram of your assembly and possibly even the best place to purchase the fittings from? In return, I promise to purchase plenty of your cider when I'm in your locality :-) Thanks. Col

@@bigcol2233 Hi, it's a bit difficult to recommend exactly what you need as every pump / setup is different. I bought all the fittings from ebay years ago. If you want to but from an established UK company nero is pretty good. You need to think about what hose size you want and build from there. I use 3/4" hose and hence all my fittings are 3/4" as well. With camlocks, they are designated a, b, c etc depending upon the fitting. In my setup for instance camlock F are male threaded camlocks so they could fit directly into female threaded T pieces. The rest of the setup is camlock f - female threaded t piece - straight hexagon joint nipple - female threaded full bore ball valve - straight hexagon joint nipple - female threaded t piece - camlock f. The two bottom ports on the t piece are male threaded hose tails. Hope that helps.

@Llanblethian Orchards Cider Makers Hi. Thanks for this. It helps a lot. Cheers

Thanks, glad you liked it, I hope it is of use :)

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it :)

Thanks! I hope it is of use, keeved cider is lovely :)

You left a lot of air in the containers 1/3 of the container above the chapeau brun. Was that deliberate? Does the gel increase the mass/volume of the liquid?

@@dfulton12477 In the ibc's? Yes the gel does rise above the liquid. It was touching the top of the container when I racked it off. Ideally I would have liked the ibcs at the end to be full to the top but I am suffering from a lack of fruit problem! Two of the ciders in the big metal tanks at the back have pretty much finished fermenting now so I will be putting both of those ibc's into one of them once I have emptied it.

Thanks :) I was flat out during covid trying to keep everything going so had no time for filming, hopefully will be able to do more in future now.

Thanks :) Should hopefully be ready for the Cowbridge food and drink festival in May, I imagine that will be the first outing.