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Ver insightful discussion! Just wanted to add that memory also plays a key role in why we hear certain music sad or happy. For example music heard during high school age , etc.

Ive got lots of art each with alot of meaning behind then not planned but yeah id like to caht on your ahow if your up for it

I searched this into RUclips - art snobs arguing and I clicked on this one first, it's really odd I like to have podcasts, music, meditation music or some sort of noise in the background when I'm producing on my headphones but yeah thanks hahaha and yeah I'm from Cambridge UK

Thank You

great conversation!

It was a real pleasure to talk to you and share out thoughts about snobbery. Thanks.

I am very satisfied with Dr Patrige's account of snobbery here. I will be looking forward to her forthcoming book. Does good taste even exist? I like her examination of this question and look forward to hearing more from her.

Thank You

Just a little apologetics: on his wonderful post-cancer-operation blog, Roger Ebert wrote a post about his desire-after Siskel’s death I think-to get rid of the thumbs. But the Chicago Sun-Times told him it was copyrighted and he had to use it.

The view of criticism as a kind of “TripAdvisor“ has often been referred to as “consumer criticism”: buy/don’t buy.” This becomes more insidious when we remember that much of this is based on opinions. I love those 1-star reviews of a hotel grounded on “there were only 2 bath towels per person.” It infers an opinion, one I can do nothing with.

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Great discussion about music and musical “tastes”. With the advent of AI I think it’s valuable to know how it and Spotify can affect our choice in what to listen to.

If they can infer your emotional state, they can control it.

TL;DR the medium is the message Thanks, guy, but McLuhan already covered this 70 years ago.

In the segment about the aesthetics of Spotify, most of this just seems like a more powerful extension of commercial radio's worst aspects. Radio was the original recommendation algorithm and the first medium to use music to push listeners towards advertising.

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Is the "dad" the male equivalent of the "basic bitch"? He's often brought up affectionately, but his tastes have an implication of conventional masculinity and unadventurousness - AC/DC, THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER - if not outright conservatism.

Oooo so excited.

Super great discussion! Thanks, Cheryl and Brandon!

Cult, betas

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Apologies in advance for messaging you in the public comments but I couldn't find any other way to reach out to you. Let me know if you are interested in a possible collaboration. Regardless, I am excited to be subscribed to you and have a list of your discussions I look forward to watching! Keep up the awesome work! Samuel

Wow this pod is a great resource

If you guys saw the discussions in some of the discord servers im on you would gag lmao

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Its amazing what you can find when you refine your searches. Great talk! Personally I think the success of shows like The Simpsons, South Park, The Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Rick and Morty etc has definitely widened the middlebrow market, but it's always been there in the speculative genres that tackle social/philosophical issues. Ligotti, Butler, Chiang, Dick, Le Guin, all have relatable characters, pretty straightforward stories that really try to dig deeper into character and life. The Beatles and Radiohead really encapulate that art pop blend where the middlebrow soars. I think consumers of art are a lot more willing to be challenged and teenagers every year try to refine their tastes with new stuff that challenges their childhood ideas.

You touch on this a bit, but changes of time and place have a lot to do with these perceptions of art. Arguably, pop music and horror movies jumped from lowbrow to middlebrow in the 2010s, thanks to work like LEMONADE & GET OUT. But subtitled films from Asia, which are perfectly mainstream entertainment in China or India, have a much more limited audience in American theaters. Silent cinema was once mass culture, but how many teenagers would even be able to sit through one?

Thank You

Your discussion of tires on restored cars being more acceptable because tires wear out and would be expected to be replaced when worn out, made me think of a contrast: ephemera collectors who focus on things that were not expected to last and attribute value on those things just because they were not expected to last

Nicely done!

12:35 To paraphrase: ‘People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis; you can’t trust people, Jeremy.’ - Super Hans.

This is amazing

OT to this particular video, but have you thought about doing a podcast on authenticity and voyeurism in hip-hop, like the one you made about country music?

Hey! I'm 55yo German Punk Rocker. I always loved Country Music and have played in Country bands for almost 40 years. The saying about three chords and the truth holds both for Country Music and Punk Rock. Authenticity only becomes a problem when you don't have it. A big part of Punk was gaining authenticity by re-inventing yourself. I re-invented myself as a Country Musician. I feel I'm pretty authentic. I even live in a small village.

It's ironic though that fighting game communities (Tekken and Street Fighter) are the least toxic and violent people online, at least verbally, from personal experience. Trash talk or trolling is the norm in many if not all team-oriented games, even more so in digital spaces. Fighting games are not team-based. There might be some correlation to the general wholesomeness of the community in that way. Players in physical sports do what 5v5 MOBA or shooter games do a lot I'd imagine in the trolling department. Would love to buy and read the book, will pick it up, great stuff.

"Being for Beauty" is, well, a beautiful book. It makes conceptually clear something that so far we seemed to be able to articulate only in the fuzziest manner: unless our allegiance is with the appreciation model, we think that aesthetic value is ubiquitous and aesthetic acts are manifold. But DML actually gave an *intelligible form* to that vague idea. Here we have the clockwork, so to speak. We can discuss the details and whether this cog really goes well with this wheel, but here we have an operating mechanism to focus on. Plus, I love DML's style. I was wondering about an issue... Ok, aesthetic values are out there and they become aesthetic reasons only relative to practices and their profiles and the norms that sustain them (or maybe this is synchronic and somehow non-aesthetic facts become values *by* figuring in reasons - I suddenly thought of the Ping and Pong remarks on p. 36). Broadway Boogie Woogie is frenzied and jazzy for a De Stjil practice (for that specific K) and cerebral, more Bachsy than jazzy (although I think Bach is both, but leave that) in the context of another K, say, mid-century abstract expressionism. Aesthetic properties, or better yet, the content of our aesthetic evaluations depends counterfactually on Ks and their profiles, not just on Waltonian categories, or better yet, immersion in Ks is where we get our categories to begin with. Anyway... Moving to what I was wondering about: When I say that such and such is "kitsch" or "kitschy"... For instance... that the "wedding cake" in Rome (the brobdingnaguian Vittorio Emanuele II monument on Piazza Venezia), as it is derogatively described by some Romans, is one such example, enhanced by how foreign it is to its surroundings; or take the textbook paradigm of kitsch - Alma Tademas.... whatever... When we make such judgements... Are we always in the same position as the "hecklers" who mock the flickr group where a prankster posted a Cartier-Bresson, in the same position as those who deride the Winfrey Book Club or would a priori exclude Sam (the videogame preserver) from the realm of aesthetic activity? For it seems that one makes such judgements mostly as an outsider to a practice... in fact it seems the whole point of the judgement is to signal how being native to a certain practice makes you both aesthetically and morally blind to aspects of what you do. Political kitsch, for instance, calls to mind the kind of person who goes for it, finds it "beautiful" and inspiring (maybe the sum of those people make up a K with its own profile); the judgement of kitsch gestures at the mental associations that make brobdingnaguian monstrosities the appropriate vehicle of something that is then appreciated as beautiful by that kind of person. So... What I was wondering is this: how does the network theory deal with such judgements? Is there a distinction between hecklers and sensible judges of kitsch, or is there no such a thing as the latter? Thank you so much VG

I'd watch some sincerely punk Ice Capades!

Hearing a yodeling intermission would be cool

Interesting discussion. So here comes the Long Wind. The schadenfreude comments hit home: I heard of Plan 9 from that idiot Michael Medved and his Golden Turkey Awards, mixed in with Mystery Science Theater's version ("Theater patrons will not be seated during the riveting 'water cooler' sequence.") of what my friends and I did to bad movies on the old Night Flight show on USA. (This is all during the cruel, but hilariously transgressive, post-National Lampoon magazine '80s; John Hughes' quasi-pornographic pieces for that mag in the '70s are, um, enlightening-but that's another corner of "art"!) But somewhere in the early '90s I received the happy gift of Phil Hardy's Encyclopedia of Science Fiction films (still, I think, available on Amazon). In his entry on Plan 9, he states that it's "undeserving of ... the attention [of] its cult status [or] ... the denigration heaped upon it." He sees it basically as "an amateur production mounted in the most trying circumstances" (which he details a bit); but he also notes that it reflects other '50s SF paranoia enemy-from-within films-although some of them do it to a much deeper level, of course. But then he says something interesting: "What Wood does is simply express that fear in an wholly unconscious manner that bizarrely shows how insubstantial such fears are in isolation. To be activated in an audience those fears need to be structured. Thus, Plan 9 ... [is] barely watchable." and then the bomb (for me) drops: "it's a completely unstructured dream produced with no interference from the conscious mind at all." He also points out that it highlights just how much labored artifice Hollywood films employ to achieve "realism." For better or ill, I've never been able to watch Wood's films in the same way, and I'm forever looking for other movies that fit that air of the oneiric that I think (with Hardy) is the formal effect of such films. When I watch a Doris Wishman "nudie-cutie" set in a Florida "sunshine colony" or a Herschell Gordon Lewis gorefest, I laugh-but I also exult (fortunately for everyone, usually in solitude), "THERE'S the soul of cinema!" The "dream factory" so often fails because it feels it has to structure the dream-state (as when Hitchcock hires Dali, that infinitely more fraudulent "artist" than Wood). For some, Eraserhead is also "barely watchable"-but for different, more visceral/aesthetic reasons. But the mystery and transgression of that film-and most of his other work-feels closer to "that which is unconscious" in many ways-while Wood's films (and those of his partners-in-hucksterism-and btw that hucksterism is yet another vital facet of these kinds of films that folds in Wiseau and Wood and Wishman and Lewis and etc.) simply reveal the unconscious without involving us in it. For once, we can simply watch another person's dreams, almost without filters. (In a related note, and if you really want to roll your eyes at me, I can indulge my conviction that many silent films and 1930s two-reelers unknowingly evoke the dream-state when they film on "location" in the open fields, vacant (and back) lots, and empty streets of the early-morning L.A. area. There's a wonderful book, Last of the Moe Haircuts, that presents a series of pseudo-scholarly essays concerning the influence of the Three Stooges on 20th century culture. It evokes the scene of Larry running through empty streets carrying a Victrola as out-Dali-ing Dali. My experience of those and other "bad" films often works through the fun and toward those cobbled-together dreams.