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This was a terrific conversation-and the television anecdote is astounding (so much could be said there). Would love to see another installment.

Good episode

Thank you

Nancy McWilliams is a huge inspiration! Thanks for having her on!

Very interesting! Thank you !

legend...(McWilliams)

4:49 -7:28 11:08 - 16:18 22:30 transference (establishment of a new context) 27:36 29:23 29:46 39:47 55:26

I'll be the first to say it... most of us stretch that rubber band until it breaks, and then never get another one

Thank you for this video. Great opening question. I'd have responded to that popular opinion more forcefully, arguing that any mental health professional who would dismiss analysis or analytic-oriented therapy as anachronistic is simply operating from bias, is ill-informed about recent developments in analysis, and/or is not a true clinician.

This is hidden gem of knowledge. Thank you for making this conversation available on youtube😊

Please have Otto Kernberg on

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Seems like in speaking of the case of the woman competing with her mother dr. Hagen was speaking of the oedipus/electra complex without knowing it.

Sounds like a car salesman to me . All i hear is blah blah blah

Well crud, learned helplessness might bite us hard in the Medically Assisted Treatment realm of substance use treatment as well.

These videos are much appreciated - big thanks to everyone involved in this work ❤️

WOW! He's so lacking in arrogance that he can learn from other cultures! Way to go!

No we have to dal

As a clinician, thank you for this

Glad that you’re back! Looking forward to the new season

Interesting how the client's contribution to causation is often scrutinized and therapist’s contributing factors are downplayed. Therapists need to get real about their own personalities annd countertransference. Clients often are responding to something that the therapist really could have done better.

Thank you Dr Shedler for a very articulate description of Psychotherapeutic treatment and trials. You brought the discussion back to point every time, before it got too complicated. Getting to the source with a patient is life changing for them. But takes time.

Talking about change, but is there an objective measure regarding the degree of change. Most individuals with personality disorders require a breakthrough in perspective that would require a level of de novo reconsolidation/integration that would require months if not years of trusting reliance on a competent therapist. Dr. Feelgood Wampold does not recognize the degree that the superficial phenomena "flight into health" or placebo arises when individuals have entered into therapy after a period of profound hopelessness. Just allowing themselves to be vulnerable in therapy briefly provides a tremendous sense of relief while allowing them to avoid anything significantly confrontational to their egos which would be so difficult for them to tolerate. So many "escape" with their transitory experience of relief from their isolation and experiencing a hope when they were previously hopeless, yet not having actually learned what is necessary for meaningful change.

36:56 35:18 41:18 I was wrong about narcissists. They do suffer.

This is a great video, well explained at 3;00.

I very much enjoyed the interview too. I respect both of your work and very much appreciate the contributions you have made to our field. Over the last 10 years, I have been studying a form of shorter term psychodynamic psychotherapy (intensive short term, dynamic psychotherapy) I think this model has significant advantages to the traditional psychodynamic approach that I was taught, and that Dr. Schedler discussed, including doing away with the technique of free association which often feeds into intellectual defenses and prolongs treatment. ISTDP is very good at identifying, unconscious anxiety, as well as syntonic defense mechanisms, and repressed affect. Like psychoanalysis it does seek to promote character change. I am curious if either of you are familiar with it and it’s research literature?

Therapy is pretty useless for anyone with an even limited level of introspection.

The conversation we needed! Part 2 anyone?

Excellent interview. Thank you dr Shedler

Thank you for this great interview. It's exciting as a novice to hear the thoughts from a renounced psychotherapist and the great mind of Catherine, who for sure will be considered a prominent researcher on this topic. Thanks for sharing!

I was extremely interested in what Jonathan had to say- but to me this became unwatchable before the end of the hour with him constantly cutting off Wampold, not letting him finish a single question, comment, or response. Please, Jonathan, could you please give the man a chance to finish speaking - as others have pointed out here, a certain amount of nuance can be lost, if you cut a person off *every time* before they're finished, just assuming/anticipating you understand the question. The interview is 97% one person talking (which is fine, since it's an interview), but please, show some courtesy and restraint and let the interviewer finish! I would have enjoyed this a great deal more if not for that aspect. ALSO- would be very fascinated by a deeper discussion (even debate, as they referred to at one point), between Jonathan and (either Wampold, or, perhaps more interestingly, a CBT advocate of some kind). Would love to see someone put that together- could be fascinating. (Please have a moderator present though!;)

This was kind of funny. Shedler saying he's upset by researchers conducting studies and telling clinicians how they should adopt their latest treatment, yet doesn't give equal weight to people with lived experience also having an equal voice. It was scary how much Wampold dismissed Shedler -- OUCH!! I saw a video of an alleged debate between Wampold and Fonagy, where Fonagy said there are 2,400 treatments. Today, Shedler said that all treatments are equally effective. Hmmm. In the same debate video, Wampold stated that he wants research to find out what it is with some therapists that makes them effective. Hmmmm. No mention of that today. Just a presumption that therapies (and presumably, therapists) "work". Hmmm.

This was kind of funny. Shedler saying he's upset by researchers conducting studies and telling clinicians how they should adopt their latest treatment, yet doesn't give equal weight to people with lived experience also having an equal voice. It was scary how much Wampold dismissed Shedler -- OUCH!! I saw a video of an alleged debate between Wampold and Fonagy, where Fonagy said there are 2,400 treatments. Today, Shedler said that all treatments are equally effective. Hmmm. In the same debate video, Wampold stated that he wants research to find out what it is with some therapists that makes them effective. Hmmmm. No mention of that today. Just a presumption that therapies (and presumably, therapists) "work". Hmmm.

I'm having trouble finding the industry's empurical evidence of disorders. Any suggestions?

I hope you two get out of your ivory towers sometime.

Brilliant conversation! Inspiring and insightful for someone who wants to be a better therapist. Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom.

100% agree with Shedler on this.

Very interesting, but it's unfortunate that Dr. Shedler repeatedly interrupts Dr. Wampold, not giving him time to finish asking his question. Maybe nuances in the questions are being missed.

Very good discussion/argument surrounding different perspectives in particular clinical modalities.

Ihave watched a few interviews with him lately so not sure if it was here, but can’t help but think of Jonathan Shedler’s emphasis on “rupture” and the exploration of it as the essence of therapy, the key to understanding relational difficulties that are typically pervasive for the client- those ideas seem under-explored here.

We need a book from your professor Norcross on all of these issues and how to work them out

Professor Norcross is a legend.

Psychoanalysis/psychodynamic is great but it’s not assessable to therapists 3 years of school and tens of thousands of dollars (after grad school).

Promo-SM

These guys have made real and important contributions to the field. To my knowledge, Dr. Wampold has not been a clinical psychologist in general practice (working with college students is important but is not representative) but an academic reviewing research. The description of Dr. Jones career similarly does not indicate a wealth of clinical practice in general practice. How about getting a couple psychologists with 20 plus years of general practice and a young clinician in general practice to round out the discussion. I think your making therapy better begins with kill therapy.

I would like to thank everyone involved in this production! What a great endeavor and execution. I really hope that there will be many more episodes to come in the future!

Omg Bruce is working with Jerome Franks daughter to revise Persuasion & Healing. I think I’ve never felt more hyped in my life :D

Excellent discussion.

Cutting off Walpold the entire hour. Appreciate Shedler’s passion but there should be more give and take in a discussion to actually call it a discussion. Also, too much vocal fry (likely some tension in vocal cords) can be irritating to listeners.

Jonathan keeps receipts and instead of being praised for it he is shunned by the accepted consensus (i.e. something is better than nothing, in the short term, but we will tell you its the best). Tells you all you need to know about the current system of mental health care.