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No it is not so

the desire to attain jhana can block you just relax

You're welcome. Yes, the guy who filmed them was a Hollywood level documentation guy. He's not around any more. There are bunches of audios and podcast on www.easingawake.com.

I suggest u take the good with the bad and cherry pick your own beliefs. The buddha was not a theoretical man. He wanted people to be happy and powerful in their own lives, their own decisions and their conduct. if nihilism is the way for you just go for it. I agree that dharma esque " talk can be excruciatingly irritating to hear after a while.

No

yeah i struggle with that too ... the 6 first links are quite harduous to understand

Yes. Traditionally the text talks about three rupa (body) jhanas and one arupa (immaterial) jhana with four "bases." I was first taught with these as eight jhanas. From the perspective of scholarship, it is technically correct to call them four jhanas. From the standpoint of direct experience of how these difference qualities manifest, the distinction between a base and a jhana can be confusing. At least to me. But you are technically correct in calling the four jhanas.

read the suttas , buddha clearly talks about 8 jhanas - 4 rupa - 4 arupa

Hi there, what I've learned is that all of the different things that happen can all be grouped into 'phenomenon', and they are all to be 6R'ed. I've experienced innumerable different little states that felt like my mind was doing this or that, or that I was closing in or pushing out, or a sensation. They are all indications of a deepening practice but I think, my theory here, is that they are the mind trying to work out what's happening, so they are projections of a sort, or like static electricity. They are not the main path, the main path is more silence and stillness and sharper mindfulness to catch the movement of mind's attention sooner, and my experience has been that all of the little things that float up last a session or two and then they're gone.

The more sublime states do seem very far from the everyday world. At first they seem completely disconnected. Nargarjuna spoke of two different realities: the absolute and the relative, or the conditioned and the unconditioned. They say that only a Buddha can be in both at once. But as you spend more time in the absolute, it starts to leak back into the relative. It does nothing to help elect an different president or get the groceries for the kids. But after a while it gives a different perspective of the relative which is sweet and wise and not so hectic. So you may end up going back and forth between them at first. But the absolute is not without an impact on the relative if only because you see everything from a different perspective which is clear and kind and wise and not so worried.

That sounds lovely! The map of all the states that are available is huge. The map of the states involved with the jhānas is relatively small. The jhānas were intended to map out one route to freedom. But they certainly don’t include everything that is possible. It would take a longer conversation for me to sort out what you experienced. What you describe seems related to the jhānas, but not necessarily part of the route the Buddha described. But here is a guess: You decision to hold your attention fixed on a single object probably took a fair amount of push. This would have created tension which got uncomfortable. Boredom is an aversive state - one you wanted to get away from. However, if you can hold your attention long enough on one object, even if it does create tension it can sometimes push the other hindrances aside. You are so fixated on one object that there is not room to notice other unwholesome states. As they get pushed aside, the mind can begin to feel very light and luminous. It can become blissful in it’s absorption into on object. While this can feel wonderful, there is no wisdom in it. Wisdom comes from being able to see in a clear, relaxed, impersonal way how the mind works. But if you are one-pointed, you only see one thing. You can’t see how all the other aspects of the mind interact because you’ve blotted them out. Without seeing the interactions, insights do not arise. And all states are temporary. So they fade. However, the peaceful bliss was still genuine even if there was not much wisdom in it. The good feeling can deepen faith in what’s possible. And it can be both soothing and healing. All this is helpful in a real though limited way. Another possible way to describe what happened to you is that your effort did put you into a very collected place with a lot of energy. And when the boredom/aversion came up, you got just a little discouraged and backed off from pushing so hard. You took your foot off the gas enough so that some peacefulness could come it. This was close enough to some of the sublime states that your mind-heart just slid into them. The problem was that, since you kind of stumbled in, you couldn’t quite figure out how to do it again. It’s possible that you were in the eighth jhāna. I can’t say that for sure. But what may be more important than figuring out where you were is figuring out how to use it to get back into states where ease and insights are more likely to arise. Describing all of that is what my book, Buddha’s Map is about. So I won’t go into all of that now. But what you can do is bring more ease into your practice. When ever you notice tension, Six-R it (Recognize what’s going on, Release it in the sense of just let it be as it is without trying to control, Relax the mind and body and emotions, Re-Smile or allow those quiet, uplifted states to enter (or if that doesn’t happen easily, just smile), and Return to sending out uplifted qualities and Repeat patiently as often as needed. To get some leverage of your experience, just remember what it felt like. Don’t try to grasp is, but just allow that quiet, luminous sense to be there without forcing. Let your attention rest there. Then, if any tension or distractions come up, gently Six-R them and go back to radiating that peaceful, luminous sense. I would add that the Buddha’s map is just a map. It provides a step by step, natural way to move into these lovely places. But all of us have different gifts. Some people at times can slide through them all without noticing. So if that happens, that’s just fine. But if you don’t slide through, then you can come back to relaxing tension and radiating uplifted qualities. I hope this helps a little. Mettā, Doug

Hi Doug - and thank you for such a complete response, so soon. May I just clarify one thing? You are right, those early attempts were forced, like drilling through to the next chamber. The sense of boredom and/or frustration was actually, as it turned out, the signal that something was about to happen.So when it arose I didn't back off - I intensified the pressure. Then there was a surge of energy and light inside me. I was swept into a bright and empty new field of consciousness, and the ego was gone. No-one in there to commentate on what was there. When I came back out of it I could start to realise where I'd been. So eventually there was no forcing. The egoless illuminated chamber took me over, and was perfect peace. Other times, I retained some thought, and the ability to recognise something was happening. When that happened, I felt something like an inflated helium balloon, with me just printed on the external skin. It was a blissful, exhilarating state to be in, with some thought, but no ego. As you say, I'd quickly learn that there was no insight to be had. It was more like a discrete excursion for the pure enjoyment and interest of it. These days my practice is completely different - detached mindfulness and equanimity being the place I try to get to. Too much trying kills it, of course, but you do need to know what you are going in there for, and repeatedly remind yourself of how to accept and remain detached from intrusive thoughts and emotions. The really important point of this recent approach is that I learn when I am meditating that none of what I witness is me, and unlike with the earlier approach, I am able to bring that back out with me, and experience it in everyday life. So I suppose in your terms I would be acquiring some 'wisdom'?

Thanks for clarifying. It is hard enough in face-to-face conversation to sort out the subtleties of these experiences, much less on-line. So I appreciate you filling in what I missed. Perhaps the more important point for now is where you practice is at the moment and how to best work from where you are. If we get that figured out, where you were before may become clearer, or of less concern, or both. Are familiar with the six Rs? If so, are you using them? They are a paint by the number implementation of what the Buddha meant by wise effort. They are also the most effective way I’ve found of cultivating mindfulness. That helps you know more what’s actually going on. But only up to a point. As the practice goes deeper, even trying to know what’s going on is too much effort. We even have to give up knowing because what many of us call knowing has a little too much grasping in it. But this applies more to the upper jhānas. So before going any further, let me know if you know and are using the six Rs. Mettā, Doug Ps. If you don’t mind this discussion being public, we can continue here. Otherwise you can go to my website and send me a private response.

Doug - thanks again. I really appreciate you giving me your time and imparting your understanding. The short answer is yes; I know the six R's, but no, not really; I don't consciously apply them in the given sequence. Perhaps I should. My present practice is this: Spend about twenty minutes settling down and allowing my mind's activities to subside, at which point I feel able to genuinely direct my attention at will. This is an essential preparation. Leigh Brasington has termed it 'access consciousness'. Once my attention is 'under manners', it is dedicated to just being aware of everything as it arises, and maintaining a completely accepting and disengaged state. In fact, I now usually make the mood of disengagement the central focus of the meditation. If I envision my consciousness residing behind the eyes, behind the face, in the centre of the head, then it becomes possible to 'see' everything that arises in front of me. The senses are at the front of the face. The thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc.arise behind the senses. Anything that arises is brought into that domain, and I remain aware of being uninvolved, passively accepting, of everything that does arise. It is a fairly powerful approach, I find. And as I mentioned before, in contrast with my early drilling-through technique, it leaves me with a take-home. I find that very gently, and very subtly, my default state of mind is becoming more detached from the inner events, and more aware of the essential emptiness of the construction I used to identify with as being 'me'. I will try to apply the six Rs methodically, though, so thanks for that. Let's see what transpires.

At first, the six Rs tend to feel like six separate actions or motions. But as you use them more and more they will start to roll together. As the mind Recognizes something, the mind tends to Release it and stand back a little, as it were. As you do this, the mind tends to Relax. With Relaxation, the mind tends to lighten up, sometimes including but not limited to Re-Smiling. As it lightens up, it tends to glow or radiate those uplifted qualities. As you settle into it, the first five Rs tend to flow together - “rolling the Rs” we call it. So at first it helps to do it methodically but lightly. But as they start to roll together, you don’t have to be methodical any longer. You can just let them flow. They tend to self correct. When they are flowing together in this way, I recommend people bring them in for “5000 mile check-ups.” By this I mean, every once in a while slow them down to make sure all six Rs (including the Repeat) are still there - none have been inadvertently dropped. Then let them flow into one motion again. As you get used to using them, don’t try to force them to flow together. But don’t be surprised after a while if they start to. The reason I brought all this up is that you are going into “sublime” states. Things get very subtle here. The instructions I figured out for myself when I first entered these was “Do nothing. Six R everything.” That is to say do nothing but rest in the awareness as you described. But whenever even the subtlest tension arose, Six R it. However, for the six Rs to work in this way, they need to be habituated and all working smoothly so you don’t have to put much effort into them. The effort is very light. When everything is working this way, you will be sitting there meditating and the slightest tension may emerge in the mind. If you let it continue, it might form into a thought or a more pronounced sensation. But you just allow it to soften in one motion of recognize-release-relax-resmile-return. As this gets fluid and smooth, you’ll notice that to even remember what happened takes a little tension. So you relax even that very subtle tension - memory goes off line. Then you notice that to even perceive something take some tension. When you soften that, perception itself recedes. Then there are moments when perception, feeling, and consciousness go off-line. It seems like you’re gone. You won’t see this coming. But you’ll be very relaxed and clear and then it seems like you came back from being away for a moment. It may feel like nodding off. But when the mind goes to sleep, it comes back groggy. You’ll just notice that you seem to have been gone - no memory or perception of the preceding moments, not even a perception of time. And when you’re “back” the mind will be exceptionally clear and quiet and luminous. Let me know if that happens. But strive for nothing, as you described. Just let your self get out of the way.

John Mott yes, you're right John. It's excellent.

+John Mott -- Good question. At this place in the practice it is unlikely that you'll lose all sensation, particularly if you're looking to see if it's there are not. Much more likely is that you'll lose sensations in your hands or feet or an arm or some place else in the body -- until you look at it closely. Or your kinesthetic awareness may go off a little -- it feels like you leaning sideways but when you open you eyes you're sitting straight. What's happening is the the mind-heart-body it getting relaxed enough that it sends out many fewer signals. For example, it may send very little from your hands or feet. Thus they seem to disappear for a shot while. Or the signals from your whole body may be light enough that the brain doesn't know how to interpret them correctly. Thus the body seems to be in a different position that what it is. This means that equanimity is getting strong enough that you can move into the "Removing the Barriers" exercise. It's called "arupa upekkha" which can be translated as "equanimity without body," but that's an exaggeration. It's just that the body signals are beginning to go off-line. At this stage, that's enough to shift the practice.

you re nnot supposed to lose body sensations

+Yaakov Reed -- Sue Hamilton is a Scottish scholar interested in the early Buddhist world view. One of her books that's relatively easy to find (e.g. on Amazon) is "Early Buddhism: A New Approach." But the most detail exploration is in her doctoral dissertation which has been published by Luzac Oriental, Clarendon, 52 Cornmarket Street, Oxford OX1 3HJ. It's called "Identity and Experience: The Constitution of the Human being According to early Buddhism." It is a dissertation, so the language is heavy going. But there are gems buried in it. It's far from the popular press, so it's expensive.

+Easing Awake Awesome, I'm on it like white on rice….Unless you mean that red kind some monks eat.

All of these questions are answered in Abidhamma of PaliTipitaka. (which unfortunately western scholars continue to ignore). Rupa is not a living body. Its any animate/in-animate object external (Ajjaththa) to your body.

The translation is by Lesley Fowler Lebkowicz and Tamara Ditrich with Primoz Pecenko. You won't find it in Amazon, but if you google ''Sutta Nipata'' you'll find a free pdf.

Hi Jairus, Thanks for the comment. Yes, the handout is available on my website: www.dougkraft.com. On the "Other" menu click on "Videos." Scroll down to the Dependent Origination talk and look for the link. Or you can just go straight to: www.dougkraft.com/downloads/BeginningTheJourney.pdf Metta, Doug

I really loved the talk. I'm trying to get a better understanding of DO. Starting with formations, is there more information about these lower level pieces of the puzzle? I'll keep looking on your site but I haven't found it yet. Frank

Yaakov Reedd -- I'm glad that was helpful. It is very common for yogis when equanimity settles in deeply that they think they've lost the practice. But if you just gently send out the peacefulness, it helps the practice continue to unfold.