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so a complete ban on shooting all deer with 243 or above with lead, so that lead doesn't enter the food chain. Yet you can still go shoot roe deer with 222, 223 etc with lead!!! Makes complete sense that!!!

My question is are .308 lead free alternatives superior to .243 lead free alternatives?

Cheers from Canada, we are not restricted at this point but I do know a number of hunters that are quite satisfied with copper bullets. I have a rifle that shoots them quite well. I get the 243 situation as copper is lighter, I don't know if you will get the penetration you might desire. I am not that familiar. Good luck, do your testing, so you know your bullet characteristics. I do know that a 308 with a 165 gr bullet in copper works well on deer, that being the report I get from other hunters. Again though, I am not a definitive expert on copper bullets. Happy hunting!

I've never done any live quarry shooting (only target - rifle, handgun and shotgun), but I browsed the net for comments from people who do hunt game, and my main concern is how this might affect the ability of the non-lead bullet to achieve a *clean* kill. Re. accuracy; the gyroscopic stability of a bullet is due to its rotational kinetic energy - i.e., is *mass x velocity.* If you reduce the mass, then the only way to restore the original gyro stability is to increase the rate of spin, by fitting a new barrel with an increased rate of twist. That being so, it won't just be 'increased costs for industry', will it? My second concern is a point made in the proposals regarding the increased risk of ricochets. That strongly suggests to me that non-lead bullets may not be able to mushroom as effectively as lead bullets, even when hitting the same quarry at the same speed - and the last thing any hunter wants is to inflict a wound on an animal, but leave it capable of getting away and dying a slow and painful death. It's all very well the HSE saying that alternatives are available - which they are - but I'd like some really solid *EVIDENCE* of verifiable tests which prove that the alternatives will work *at least* as effectively as lead ammunition. *I can find NO such evidence in these proposals.* Final point, re. shotguns: "Many *assumptions* are made throughout the SEA. 1) 22% of shotguns are assumed to be unsuited to steel shot; 2) 50% of shooters who cannot use steel are assumed to switch to bismuth, 50% replace their shotgun with one suited to steel." *So the HSE are happy that 22% of owners of non-steel proofed guns either have to scrap a perfectly sound gun - or pay nearly FOUR times as much for their ammunition.* Well, thanks a bunch, Sir Humphrey.

And wot about all the wars throwing some shit out every day n they try tell us this,bollocks money macking lies as usual.

how thick are they and can one use a trigger with these gloves on?

If lead was so toxic all firing ranges would be worse than chinobil not a living thing would be there . And it's quite the reverse steel in shotguns is pathetic

The science on this isn't a given. This report takes it as it is. A Cambridge professor has spent her life trying to prove that ducks and raptors are adversely affected by Pb shot. By only using very selective data, or forced fed laboratory experiments, has she and her colleagues proved any link. Too contrived to be proof and basically bad science. Fragile babies might be affected by Pb, but then again they could be affected by just about anything. The conditions that Pb might have are extremely rare, but there might be a link. There are loads of ways that such subjects could come into contact with Pb, but shot isn't one. Pb is used on an industrial scale, and a very useful metal, and that is not going to change anytime soon. The EU and health freaks have an issue with Pb, though it is naturally occurring in all soils. Heathy people have no problem dealing with natural concentration, nor from exposure from game meats. Pb shot over land has no measurable increase in naturally occurring levels. It is the UK Game Trade that relies on exporting a high quantity of game to Europe that is demanding these changes. Several countries that have Pb shot bans are considering reversing such bans or already have, because the science is so erroneous if not just poor. The USA is, due to the damage steel has to the timber industry. Lastly, steel is just not as ballistically effective as Pb in shot or bullets. No game will thank anyone for such a Pb ban. Frankly, it is cruel. Annoyingly, there are people in the shooting community that have bought into this poor science and pushing for such a change. Bad on them.

No1 criteria is how consistent and accurate the non lead ammunition are

"Long term Environmental pollution caused by using LEAD that could affect child baring mothers & young children"....They say !. Its History repeating itself yet again. Isnt this exactly the same thing the so called 'scientists' said about vehicles using petrol back in the 70's, with particular reference to traffic around Spaghetti Junction in Birmingham affecting the health of local children, which saw the advent of Unleaded petrol & the emergence of everyone being told to drive 'cleaner' diesel vehicles!!!!..= LEAD Nothing in these Proposals about the huge & increasing volumes of aircraft exhaust pollution raining down daily on to the unsuspecting population = LEAD. Nanny state.

www.hse.gov.uk/reach/restrictions/rr-aavi-0821.pdf

So how would that affect Blackpowder firearms? Sorry did I miss the bit where 243 is threatened? Cast lead is a great hobby of mine hunting bunnies for food with an old Lee Enfield I would miss that, Lucky I live in another country.

The most accurate target bullets are lead core... Berger Hornady eldm The HSE has fuck all idea what is acceptable for accuracy or to enable competitors to compete internationally nor do they give a flying fuck! This country is still Europe's bitch and I am about ready to leave. Sorry to be blunt and profane, but I have had enough of jobsworths pushing their way into things that do not concern them and are already well regulated.

Lead posses risk to environment, not from rifles. This is bollocks! Zeroing rifle ammunition on the farm? Ricochet risk in the field? These assholes are just trying to stealth prevent shooting. HSE poses a risk to all shooting.

My grand father was shot in the first world war and lived to a good old age with the bullet still in him, he didn't die of lead poisoning.

So will the government be replacing all the lead water pipes in the country as well as this is a bigger threat to people imo In target shooting the rifles are custom made and even now I can’t buy that ammunition and have to make all the ammunition along with many tests of bullets and power changes?

I’ve been using copper for years in my deer rifles with no issues at all.,Don’t mind that law coming in but what I do mind is shotgun ammunition restrictions. How many clay grounds will close due to the hobbie shot in a Sunday not wanting to pay for steel or be punched around with it.

Lead ammo dosnt effect health the idea of banning lead ammo is to makes sportsmen lives more expensive and harder it has nothing to do with saving wildlife it's to make life harder to try and push more people out of gun ownership......fight back as hard as you can

Thin end of the wedge. The more corrupt they become, the less they enjoy the idea of the general population having firearms and ammo.

So hunters are hounded out of existence then the deer and foxes etc numbers get out of hand and a expensive consultation takes place and calls for something to be done so the government has to hire 'sharpshooters' from abroad...... Just wait and see😜

Bad science given credence by those politically motivated and anti gun. Annoyingly shooting organisations have done little to stop such uselessness as the British game meat trade is for such a ban in order to sell to the whole of Europe. HSE is presently a proposal and not a very good piece of work. It should be shown up where it has used bad science.

No it’s not the end of the .243

They keep talking about the environment the UK is a very small country compared to many other countries that are pumping out far more pollution I'm not saying we shouldn't do our bit, perhaps they should start looking at the amount of rockets they keep sending into space who gives a toss what is on mars if the truth is known it is probably this that has caused more damage to the environment than any other source and it is a complete waste of money.

Been fine for 100 + years this is just all bollocks to try put another nail in shooting.

You would think they would include mounting hardware with the kits. Now u have to buy extra stuff for the press and powder measure just to get started

I will carry on on my own land doing what I want, it will be extremely hard to police. A home loading person can buy plenty of bullets legally so long as they are not made into live rounds.

Why the end of the 243? Not that I've used any yet... but non- lead is available for the 243 and Scotland no longer has the 100 gr min weight law unless I'm mistaken. It's as viable as any other, maybe more marginal on the energy figures but the deer I've shot with lead 76-100 gr haven't got back up. Thanks for the video though!! 👍👍

What have they done to ranges that makes them safer for ricochet?? We are trusted to have an FAC but not trusted in their opinion to select the right ammunition for the specific purpose intended? Who’s leading this stuff? Who from the shooting side are they talking to? And for my part being asked by a stalker to place my shot in the shoulder of a deer so it can’t run off then despatch it once at the shot site speaks volumes for the care these proposalites have for our deer population. I’m not suggesting copper doesn’t work but the negatives seem to have been lost to the fact that lead poisoning is an ever increasing problem - where are the facts for that??

This is just another attack on firearms owners to get more control as usual, always dreaming up ways to move towards taking the guns from the people, they always take bit by bit, last time it was Hodgdon powders, all in the name of safety

I like copper bullets i find the accuracy great and terminal performance awesome but i do not see banning lead as a worthwhile thing

Living in Canada and our woke government, totally obsessed with firearms, now in full and final collapse, shooters and hunters here can relax. The obsession of your government with lead is creating a solution in search of a problem, I have used lead based shot and bullets, all my life as have so many other hunters I know, never ever had a health problem related to lead. However government exercises such as these, creates amongst the uninitiated the impression that their government is seen to be doing something sophisticated. Must be tough to be a gun owner/shooter or hunter in the UK or the EU. At least we know that would the Conservatives come in power in Canada next October, it would role back most of the Trudeau flagship gun control measures. You would figure that with the world on the brink of serious confrontations, not counting the Middle East conflicts and Russias war on Ukraine, the UK government would have more serious affairs to attend to then lead of shooters and hunters. Just me thinking aloud.

Yet strangely using lead ammunition and depleted uranium rounds in Ukraine and elsewhere to kill people in order to steal natural resources or prop up the $Dollar reserve currency isn't an issue???

What a crock of shit

What about all the plastic that will be going into the fields that grow our food when out pigeon shooting i for one will not be paying the extra for eco wads to shoot pigeons. And why can't they keep .243 ballistic tipped bullets as lead as their used for mostly foxes so won't be entering the food chain?

Thanks for the update.

Shoot as much lead as you like is small bullets. So British 🤦‍♂️

Lead came from the ground it’s just going back

Good overview of HSE proposals . I have used 120 grain Hornady cx bullet for the last 3years in 6.5 creedmoor and been impressed with accuracy and performance. Gamedealers may start requiring deer to be shot with non lead bullets.

Why do they always have to interfere so much. It's so unnecessary. If they're worried about contaminating land then electric car batteries are horrendous for that. Shooting is not an issue, it's completely stupid.

I've been using copper for around the last 7 years and there's no issue with any of the calibers at all. Yes some rifles and some amunition don't seem to agree with eachother but once you get a good combination the results/performanc are very acceptable.

Thanks for another very useful informative article, I have read the proposal and it is clear that the sudden change from 6.5mm being the bench mark for large calibre to 6.17 (243) is the 64,000 approx number of 243 registered rifles would make the lead ban useless. I have stopped barking at the moon and resigned myself to being forced into accepting my fate, we must thank BASC for rearranging the deckchairs while the ship was sinking, I am now testing Lapua 90g Naturalis in 243. 20in barrel 1 in 10 twist. Thanks again.

Thanks for the update. I'm relatively new - what impact is there on rifles one currently owns? Is there much impact on existing barrles if you have to move to non-lead?

Hiya, You should change the title and your wording on this because it could be misleading as its not actually the 243. it actually 6mm which covers a number of calibres: - 243 - 6mm XC - 6mm Creedmore - 6mm GT - 6mm Dasher - 6mm PPC This proposal is cherry picking because you can shoot game with a small calibre with lead but not a large calibre... if lead is so toxic then it should be banned from shooting quarry intended for consumption. Its wording and actions are yet another nail for the shooting community. Non-lead cartridges are sky-rocketing in price and this issue should be addressed before doing stories on info we already know. AAARRRGGHHHHHH

I thought the target derogation was on any pretty much any range which could be de-leaded? Otherwise target shooting is going to suffer hugely

IDIOCY!!!

The end goal isn’t the ban of lead, it’s the complete ending of gun ownership and field sports in general. Every year they add more hurdles to jump through, doctors letters, increase security, massive increases in fees. This government and previous ones do not want citizens to own firearms. They also don’t want you fishing. Even more concerning to me as a carnivore they don’t want you consuming meat. They are “slowly boiling the frog”. One other point it’s ok to soak the land and crops with glyphosate and pesticides.

Anyone else had trouble with copper.243 grouping? Tried some 80g copper and it just wouldn't produce what i would call a group. 2 1/2 inches at 60yards. Its not going to be good at 100?

Is lead not a naturally occurring element in the environment 🤔 this is shite, what about all the lead pipes that our water runs through 🤷‍♂️

In the 1990’s the government did a 6 year study on lead , in the end they came too the decision that there was no evidence that lead was a risk , if you talk of risk then 80% of the uk water pipes going into the houses are lead and that’s young kids everyone drinking out of them , the ones pushing this again are BASC etc as did John swift with the wildflowing , this is about control besides that lead comes from the earth anyway, everyone needs too fight this and don’t buy any of the non toxic ammo or shotgun cartridges don’t roll over too it , otherwise your killing your own sport , after this there will be something else probably a short supply of copper and steel and so on , so don’t be sheep I think your stronger than that so too roll over , BASC are in complete control of this they are the ones who actually pushing this, and this why I’m not a member anymore

What a crock of shite, all these new houses that are been built will still be feed with lead pipes2 give water to all these labour pushed homes!!!